Here is the planned location of Christ Hospital's station in the Mt. Auburn Tunnel:

 

I understand there are several tight turns in the area, but is there no way to take a branch from Vine over Thill Street and then up past Christ Hospital via Glencoe?

Cranley's 1 month delay may be costly:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20140122/BIZ/301220106

I've picked up both of those biases as well—just passing it along. I do think Next City brings up some interesting points, though the claim that the sidewalks downtown are quite generous seems to reveal a certain unfamiliarity with Cincinnati's situation.

 

I think a lot of it comes from Stephen Smith, who writes for Next City and runs Market Urbanism. He has criticized the Cincinnati streetcar route in particular, basically saying that it's not real transit because it favors a more complex route (having an S-bend at Central Parkway) to connect more existing destinations, rather than just running a simpler route (such as north on Elm, south on Race) throughout the entire basin area. While I understand the criticism, this is not a concern unique to streetcars. Every rail transportation route was chosen to balance multiple concerns -- more stops for higher ridership vs. fewer stops for faster speed, curvier route to connect to more destinations vs. straighter route for simplicity.

 

Also, Next City fails to mention that mixed traffic streetcar lanes could be converted to transit-only lanes in the future. Imagine the streetcar lanes on Main and Walnut being converted to transit-only lanes (for streetcars and buses) some day. It's a ways off, but it could happen.

EXCLUSIVE: Streetcar delay could cost more than projected

Jan. 22, 2014 1:15 PM

Written by Jason Williams

 

The cost for the three-week shutdown of work on Cincinnati’s controversial streetcar project could be higher than originally projected.

 

The company providing the structural steel for the streetcar maintenance facility accepted another job after City Council voted to delay the project last month, streetcar project leader John Deatrick told The Enquirer.

 

“Now, we’ve got a problem there,” Deatrick said Wednesday. “It could be a two-month delay (in receiving the steel) – or we’re going to have to pay more.”

 

READ MORE AT:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20140122/BIZ/301220106

Fares expected to be $1.75 for a two-hour unlimited ticket. $3.50 for a 24-hour ticket.

  ^ Seems about right. How they sell them and enforce fare collection is really the key detail here.

Just a swipe of a credit card I hope. I rarely have cash on me much less change.

My cousin in Chicago has a card that is tied to her bank account. She doesn't use transit all the time since she has a bike and a car, but the occassional trip on the bus can be paid directly out of her bank account. No reloading or anything. That would be the perfect system for the occassional rider in Cincinnati.

I've picked up both of those biases as well—just passing it along. I do think Next City brings up some interesting points, though the claim that the sidewalks downtown are quite generous seems to reveal a certain unfamiliarity with Cincinnati's situation.

 

I think a lot of it comes from Stephen Smith, who writes for Next City and runs Market Urbanism. He has criticized the Cincinnati streetcar route in particular, basically saying that it's not real transit because it favors a more complex route (having an S-bend at Central Parkway) to connect more existing destinations, rather than just running a simpler route (such as north on Elm, south on Race) throughout the entire basin area. While I understand the criticism, this is not a concern unique to streetcars. Every rail transportation route was chosen to balance multiple concerns -- more stops for higher ridership vs. fewer stops for faster speed, curvier route to connect to more destinations vs. straighter route for simplicity.

 

Also, Next City fails to mention that mixed traffic streetcar lanes could be converted to transit-only lanes in the future. Imagine the streetcar lanes on Main and Walnut being converted to transit-only lanes (for streetcars and buses) some day. It's a ways off, but it could happen.

 

I think they have some points, but also feel we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Two-way street conversions would have been smart. And I hope there has been planning w/ the idea in mind that the lanes could become dedicated rail rights-of-way. I know previous route plans had some lane changes which might have interfered with this, but I believe some (all?) of that has been ironed out.

 

Fares expected to be $1.75 for a two-hour unlimited ticket. $3.50 for a 24-hour ticket.

I hope they offer a couple free day-passes with parking fees at the Washington Park and Banks garages (i.e. the lots on the route ends, on the periphery of downtown). Throw a couple child passes into the deal, too.

 

Hard to imagine a better opportunity to get suburbanites accustomed to transit, while simultaneously keeping congestion & pollution out of Downtown.

good grief, Murray has never heard the terms 1a, 1b, 2, etc in regard to the streetcar development?

good grief, Murray has never heard the terms 1a, 1b, 2, etc in regard to the streetcar development?

 

AM radio will do that to your brain

 

Here's how much it will cost to ride the streetcar and when you'll be able to use it

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

A two-hour pass to ride Cincinnati's streetcar will cost riders $1.75, the same as a one-way fare on Metro within the city of Cincinnati.

 

Metro rail manager Paul Grether announced the proposed fare for the first time on Wednesday at hearing of the City Council committee overseeing transportation projects.

 

A 24-hour streetcar pass will cost $3.50, the same as the cost to ride a Metro bus from Butler County or Warren County to downtown.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/01/22/heres-how-much-it-will-cost-to-ride.html

Cranley should pay for it personally.

Here is the planned location of Christ Hospital's station in the Mt. Auburn Tunnel:

 

I understand there are several tight turns in the area, but is there no way to take a branch from Vine over Thill Street and then up past Christ Hospital via Glencoe?

 

No, not without a tunnel of some kind, and the problem with tunnels is that they have to be of a certain length before use of a TBM is economical.  That distance varies depending on the geology and other local conditions.  For example, it's much less expensive to have dirt conveyed out of the proposed Mt. Auburn Tunnel into dump trucks waiting in front of Rothenberg School or in the (*ahem*) University Plaza parking lot than it is to lift bucket after bucket of fill out of the Second Ave. Subway's launch pits.

 

Without a TBM  you've got a team of dudes getting paid $200/hr with dynamite and jack hammers behind a shield for a year to bore a steeply sloped half-mile tunnel from Vine to Auburn.  You can pay $75 million for a 1/2 mile tunnel or $100 million for a mile-long tunnel with a straighter alignment and gentler grade.

 

Also, a route of any kind diverging east from Vine means the route still has to travel on the steepest part of Vine near Mulberry and northbound streetcars have to negotiate the ridiculous 2,300 foot loop to Henry St., which includes 900 feet of traveling south on Race before streetcars turn north from Elder onto Vine.   

 

Let's compare the track distance and travel time of northbound streetcars between Findlay Market and Jefferson and intersection of Short Vine & Corry St....

 

Current plan:

8,800 feet of track

At least 10 minutes

$50 million

 

4,800 foot tunnel from McMicken and Ohio Ave. (right next to the church) to Short Vine:

6,250 feet of track

2 minutes

$100 million+

 

5,700 foot tunnel from McMicken and Ohio Ave. (right next to the church) to Auburn Ave. station, then to Short Vine:

7,500 feet of track

3 minutes

$100-200 million

 

Plus, not counting the cost of the deep subway station, the longer tunnel would only be incrementally more expensive because it would share the same fixed TBM and design costs as the slightly shorter tunnel.  Unfortunately, the deep station would be very, very expensive, like at least $50 million. The most comparable recent tunnel to any beneath Mt. Auburn is the Beacon Hill Tunnel in Seattle, which is about a mile long and cost about $125 million. 

 

This is the tunnel profile:

 

Here is the shaft where the station was built:

 

Here is the station design:

 

 

Apparently transportation experts Chris Smitherman and Brian Thomas are on the air talking about how we don't actually need a Maintenance and Operations Facility... we can just park the streetcar in the Riverfront Transit Center.

 

(Nobody tell them that the streetcar track doesn't go down to the Riverfront Transit Center. Or that the Riverfront Transit Center is used by charter buses and school buses all the time.)

Said conversation here:

 

01/23/14 Hour 2 - More streetcar shenanigans and cost overruns

 

 

It is rather frustrating that people 100% believe that you can "easily make these changes to save taxpayer money"...

 

neither of these individuals have any background in transportation engineering, planning, or budgeting... yet they magically have the ability plan a better system?

 

And the fact that a councilman actively spreads this nonsense is incredibly irresponsible.  I know it is all politics and that the game they are playing, but when other taxpayers take every word as if its the truth it is frustrating.  It is 550krc/WLW are the equivalent of people watching the Real World and thinking its true life.

 

I know most on here are much more well read on the subject, but the majority of people are not and get their news from these outlets or outlets such as these.  Its unfortunate.

In Munich, bus and streecar stops look the same.  Bus stops are also placed resaonably far apart.  Walk is not a 4-letter word in German.

 

It is rather frustrating that people 100% believe that you can "easily make these changes to save taxpayer money"...

 

neither of these individuals have any background in transportation engineering, planning, or budgeting... yet they magically have the ability plan a better system?

 

And the fact that a councilman actively spreads this nonsense is incredibly irresponsible.  I know it is all politics and that the game they are playing, but when other taxpayers take every word as if its the truth it is frustrating.  It is 550krc/WLW are the equivalent of people watching the Real World and thinking its true life.

 

I know most on here are much more well read on the subject, but the majority of people are not and get their news from these outlets or outlets such as these.  Its unfortunate.

 

This morning Brian Thomas had a tea party guest on who is recruiting naïve people to start working the primary polls and generally get involved in primary election politics.  This is part of a strategy where the Republican Party can put pressure on its incumbents to vote in lock step in order to avoid the wrath of the tea party and its ability to stage upsets in congressional primaries, ala Brad Wenstrup.  This guest was a former Navy Seal (a HERO) but used all the programming language, like how "we" need to get "good" candidates into office.  The whole thing was completely disgusting.  And this guy is on the radio, in studio, at 7am shilling for free.  That's how insane things are right now -- all these people with idle time are getting tricked into joining the political process. 

 

I understand there are several tight turns in the area, but is there no way to take a branch from Vine over Thill Street and then up past Christ Hospital via Glencoe?

 

No, not without a tunnel of some kind, and the problem with tunnels is that they have to be of a certain length before use of a TBM is economical.  That distance varies depending on the geology and other local conditions.  For example, it's much less expensive to have dirt conveyed out of the proposed Mt. Auburn Tunnel into dump trucks waiting in front of Rothenberg School or in the (*ahem*) University Plaza parking lot than it is to lift bucket after bucket of fill out of the Second Ave. Subway's launch pits.

 

Without a TBM  you've got a team of dudes getting paid $200/hr with dynamite and jack hammers behind a shield for a year to bore a steeply sloped half-mile tunnel from Vine to Auburn.  You can pay $75 million for a 1/2 mile tunnel or $100 million for a mile-long tunnel with a straighter alignment and gentler grade.

 

Also, a route of any kind diverging east from Vine means the route still has to travel on the steepest part of Vine near Mulberry and northbound streetcars have to negotiate the ridiculous 2,300 foot loop to Henry St., which includes 900 feet of traveling south on Race before streetcars turn north from Elder onto Vine.   

 

Let's compare the track distance and travel time of northbound streetcars between Findlay Market and Jefferson and intersection of Short Vine & Corry St....

 

Current plan:

8,800 feet of track

At least 10 minutes

$50 million

 

4,800 foot tunnel from McMicken and Ohio Ave. (right next to the church) to Short Vine:

6,250 feet of track

2 minutes

$100 million+

 

5,700 foot tunnel from McMicken and Ohio Ave. (right next to the church) to Auburn Ave. station, then to Short Vine:

7,500 feet of track

3 minutes

$100-200 million

 

Plus, not counting the cost of the deep subway station, the longer tunnel would only be incrementally more expensive because it would share the same fixed TBM and design costs as the slightly shorter tunnel.  Unfortunately, the deep station would be very, very expensive, like at least $50 million.

 

Seems to me the longer tunnel could be built prior to the Mt. Auburn station build-out. At a minimum, a flat (0 slope) segment of track could be built where the station would be built at a later date, thus saving $50m from the initial cost. For roughly the same cost as 1a, there could be a super-fast extension to Vine & MLK.

 

A logical next phase, IMO. Get UC, Christ Hospital, etc., to voice their support and the political will could be there.

To natininja et al: 

 

Tunnels or no tunnels, phase two or no phase two, all any of us can do at this point is wait  --- very patiently --- for the next several years while this first phase of the Cincinnati Streetcar is painstakingly assembled, piece by piece, until it is at long last put to the acid test:  Will Cincinnatians and visitors alike find that it adequately serves their needs, or will they discover to their dismay and disappointment that it can't?

 

How the streetcar is presented to the public (vehicle cleanliness inside and out at all times, consistently pleasant attitude and helpfulness from all on-board personnel) coupled with good all-day and -evening service, an easily-understood and user-friendly fare-payment system, and quality real-time information, also will all have a major impact on how well riders take to it.

 

Only time and experience will tell.

 

At least we can be thankful for the fact that we soon will have the opportunity to find out for real if a properly-run streetcar in Cincinnati can make the cut.

I heard this today:

 

"I think what's going to happen is that they won't get enough people to use it, and they will have to subsidize the operating cost."

 

I wish the city/county would have negotiated with UC to get phase 2 done.  Instead of them remodeling their current stadium for $70 million they could have used that or half of it for phase II and have the team use Paul Brown stadium instead. Of course alot of party's would have to agree. But I see so much win win with scenario. Kinda to late for that now. :(

With all the construction going on in Uptown I think it's just a matter of time before supporters come out of the woodwork looking for the extension to be built.  I just wish the connection to the OTR loop wasn't so circuitous. 

^  Keep in mind that UC's $86 million renovation is being funded by donors and those who bought suites and club seats - all through extensive fund-raising efforts specifically for this project.  It's not as simple as saying UC should have just spent the stadium money on the streetcar because they are not paying for it out of some general fund.

^  Keep in mind that UC's $86 million renovation is being funded by donors and those who bought suites and club seats - all through extensive fund-raising efforts specifically for this project.  It's not as simple as saying UC should have just spent the stadium money on the streetcar because they are not paying for it out of some general fund.

 

Right. The Nippert renovation will be revenue-positive for UC. Building a streetcar, especially if that means moving to PBS, definitely would not be, since UC can't collect taxes from economic development along the line (nor concessions/etc. revenue at PBS). Only way I could see UC making more than a token donation to streetcar construction (which itself is unlikely) is if they are interested in developing land near the tunnel exit. Which assumes a tunnel, and assumes such a property transfer would be considered constitutional. I would love to see that carrot dangled, but it's firmly in the realm of fantasy at the moment.

I love it!

 

I can think of a few people those need mailed to...

I love it!

 

 

Be sure to buy two of the cards so you can make the full Urbos 3

I love it!

 

It's great to know there's a streetcar in our cards; it's like holding the Royal Flush!

.

 

Absolutely :wink:

^-- The face peeking out from behind the sign is creeping me out. 

 

^-- The face peeking out from behind the sign is creeping me out.

 

It's a rubber Hallowe'en mask - scary, ain't it!

.

 

Absolutely :wink:

 

FakeCinEnguirer: that's my idea of a periodical. Glad I got my "point" across!

Had a question. Is the  streetcar rails going on  the median on Central Parkway or the street

Based on the conceptual engineering document it's going in the right driving lane eastbound.  If it was on the median it would be over the rapid transit tunnels, and I bet that's a can of worms they don't want to open.  Plus if it was in the median it would complicate the turn southbound onto Walnut. 

Pretty sure it's in the left driving lane with the Vine Street stop in the median.

Does anyone know the true story of the oil line running under vine?

 

Smitherman and Brian thomas seem to think its physically impossible to connect to uptown on Vine Street because of some 'massive oil line'?  Thomas even suggested in the past that only a Swedish company is capable of moving that line if the streetcar is extended

 

 

So no double tracks at all?

Older underground high voltage (greater than 10kV) cables were insulated with oil-impregnated paper and the whole thing was sealed inside a steel, aluminum, or lead pipe.  Sometimes more oil was used and kept under pressure to minimize voids that could cause discharges, especially for the higher voltages used for sub-transmission between substations.  My guess is that's what they're talking about.  Still, it seems like the kind of thing that could either be abandoned completely, a new modern conduit could be installed in a new location, or it could be handled with the existing overhead electric system. 

 

I've noticed a similar oddball situation near where I live.  All the electric distribution is overhead, but there's also a sizable underground electric line running under much of Madison Road through Hyde Park if not also East Walnut Hills and Oakley.  Maybe a century ago did CG&E buried some sub-transmission lines and figured they'd get to undergrounding the distribution lines later?  I don't know if this runs all the way between the Oakley substation at Ridge and Madison and the old Walnut Hills substation at Victory Parkway and Ashland (or the even older one at McMillan and Park), but I always ponder what the deal is when I see OUPS mark it out as what looks like a sizable conduit. 

Based on the conceptual engineering document it's going in the right driving lane eastbound.  If it was on the median it would be over the rapid transit tunnels, and I bet that's a can of worms they don't want to open.  Plus if it was in the median it would complicate the turn southbound onto Walnut. 

 

Is that document available online?

 

It'd be interesting if the city made some form of basic drawings available online, sort of like the I-75 Mill Creek Expressway website. Those drawings are very basic but illustrate exactly what is being built pretty clearly.

 

Edit: Just found it, Appendix C here: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/documents-references/environmental-documents/?startRow=11&nextNID=E58A1F73-B7C8-4475-86CF4E604718E07C

Doesn't all this tunnel talk kind of defeat the purpose of streetcars which is running them through area that can be redeveloped? I mean if there is an 8,000 foot long tunnel, that's just 8,000 feet of potential properties that are being skipped over (under). That's fine for light rail but shouldn't  STREETcars run on the street?

 

Also does anyone know when they usually do the thermite welding? It's cold and I could use a little warming up... plus it looks really cool. I was just wondering if there was a construction schedule that could be found anywhere.

Does anyone know the true story of the oil line running under vine?

 

Smitherman and Brian thomas seem to think its physically impossible to connect to uptown on Vine Street because of some 'massive oil line'?  Thomas even suggested in the past that only a Swedish company is capable of moving that line if the streetcar is extended

 

\

 

All I can say is, do not dismiss that line, whatever it is, as trivial. It could be insignificant, or it could cost tens of $millions to move or work around. It would be prudent to find out what it is BEFORE proposing a rail line up Vine Street!

Doesn't all this tunnel talk kind of defeat the purpose of streetcars which is running them through area that can be redeveloped? I mean if there is an 8,000 foot long tunnel, that's just 8,000 feet of potential properties that are being skipped over (under). That's fine for light rail but shouldn't  STREETcars run on the street?

 

I agree with you in that this has alway been an economic development project.  I've actually not been the biggest champion of the Uptown extension BECAUSE there are so few properties to redevelop along Vine St.  However, as the current phase is being built to light rail specs, building a tunnel to Uptown would truly be a huge transportation project with the potential to connect the entire city to Uptown and Downtown.  The longterm return on investment would be massive.

>The longterm return on investment would be massive.

 

The paradox of subway tunnels is that the areas most in need of them are also the most densely built, which drives up costs.  Today's TBM's can tunnel deep below basements and utilities, but constructing stations is still very complicated and expensive.  Look at some of the overhead views of London's Crossrail station construction sites:

 

We don't have anything in Cincinnati that will require such complicated engineering (London's new Canary Warf station is being built underwater), and we have good construction staging areas near any contemplated subway station.  For example, Hoffner Park in Northside, the many parking lots along MLK near University Hospital, or Christ Hospital's front lawn. 

We don't have anything in Cincinnati that will require such complicated engineering (London's new Canary Warf station is being built underwater), and we have good construction staging areas near any contemplated subway station.  For example, Hoffner Park in Northside, the many parking lots along MLK near University Hospital, or Christ Hospital's front lawn. 

 

Yes, can we please build the station right below the surface parking lot that Christ leveled the whole neighborhood for?  I actually have visions of an underground station with a portal out the hillside to Little Bethlehem. That would be a huge boon to that little enclave.

Doesn't all this tunnel talk kind of defeat the purpose of streetcars which is running them through area that can be redeveloped? I mean if there is an 8,000 foot long tunnel, that's just 8,000 feet of potential properties that are being skipped over (under). That's fine for light rail but shouldn't  STREETcars run on the street?

 

Also does anyone know when they usually do the thermite welding? It's cold and I could use a little warming up... plus it looks really cool. I was just wondering if there was a construction schedule that could be found anywhere.

 

Running on the street is ideal, but what you're overlooking is that the portion of the streetcar driving development is the stop, not the vehicle or the tracks (though the tracks do ensure that the stops are unlikely to disappear in the near future).  The stop is where people disembark and may pop into a nearby store, restaurant, bar, etc.  The streetcar can run up Vine Street's hill with no problem, but it can't stop/unload/restart effectively on the hill.  I'm sure it can stop and restart in traffic, but it's not worth the increased maintenance costs that would be associated with the extra strain on the vehicles generated by scheduled mid-hill stops. 

 

So basically, you have two options, running up the hill with no scheduled stops or running through a tunnel.  Neither spurs development along that portion of Vine Street because the passengers can't get off in the middle of the hill, so the increase in redevelopment value along that section of track is negligible.  That leaves you to choose between a tunnel and on-street-running based on price, time to build, efficiency, and expansion potential.

We need to look at Vine Street between Clifton Avenue and McMillan as a sort of bridge -- gets you to where you want to go with no stops in between.

^ So basically it's an incline.  If there was some way to put back the Bellevue Incline and actually use it for the streetcar I'd be all for it.  Unlikely for practical reasons of course, but fun to imagine. 

Strangely enough, I'm liking this Mt. Auburn tunnel idea more and more. I don't see much point in running the streetcar up Vine from a development perspective (it obviously would save cost compared to a tunnel).

 

It could be similar to the Mt. Washington Tunnel in Pittsburgh, perhaps.  Except more useful (fast connection between OTR/Downtown and medical/university districts in Uptown). Almost like the PAAC transit East Busway to Oakland, except WAY better, lol. I also think it would be a huge shot in the arm for any LRT projects (especially I-71 or Wasson Way LRT).