She is for light rail though. The only positive I heard.

 

She knows that streetcars are light rail, right? And that the tracks we're building can serve any kind of light rail train?

 

Grade-separating the next phase would make this abundantly clear, weakening many opposition taking-points.

 

We've destroyed countless opposition talking points over the years.  It doesn't matter.  They just keep on making up new ones

Surprised no one posted this from yesterday:

 

Streetcar alters Opening Day parade route

 

Work on Cincinnati’s streetcar will force the iconic Findlay Market Opening Day Parade to take a detour this year.

 

The 95th annual parade will pass through Over-the-Rhine on Elm Street instead of Race Street prior to the Reds’ season-opening game March 31, parade chairman Neil Luken said Monday.

 

“We’re not trying to (tick) people off,” Luken said. “We’re doing this to accommodate the streetcar construction, and next year we can march down Race again. It might inconvenience some people, but in some ways it’s better because people can view the parade from the steps of Music Hall.”

 

Cont

^^Excuses bathed in oil.

She is for light rail though. The only positive I heard.

 

She knows that streetcars are light rail, right? And that the tracks we're building can serve any kind of light rail train?

 

Grade-separating the next phase would make this abundantly clear, weakening many opposition taking-points.

 

We've destroyed countless opposition talking points over the years.  It doesn't matter.  They just keep on making up new ones

 

At least it would respond to the vocal contingent that claims to be pro-LRT but skeptical of the streetcar. If enough of them are honest, allying them with the already strong pro-streetcar base should make for a potent political force. Plus we need a bold vision to keep motivational momentum. We are constantly at risk of waning morale. I certainly feel battle fatigue, and I've only been participating from afar. Grade-separated access to Uptown is something to get excited about; battling over Duke's oil-suspended powerline sounds So. Yawn. Inducing. (I know that might turn out to be nothing, but I think it helps illustrate my point.)

Surprised no one posted this from yesterday:

 

Streetcar alters Opening Day parade route

 

Work on Cincinnati’s streetcar will force the iconic Findlay Market Opening Day Parade to take a detour this year.

 

The 95th annual parade will pass through Over-the-Rhine on Elm Street instead of Race Street prior to the Reds’ season-opening game March 31, parade chairman Neil Luken said Monday.

 

“We’re not trying to (tick) people off,” Luken said. “We’re doing this to accommodate the streetcar construction, and next year we can march down Race again. It might inconvenience some people, but in some ways it’s better because people can view the parade from the steps of Music Hall.”

 

Cont

 

It's a non-story. Enquirer is back to trolling for streetcar clicks. Showing again why they came out in force to keep the project alive -- it's the biggest cash-cow they've got.

Does starting at Race and Liberty then heading west to Elm make any sense to anyone else? Why wouldn't you just stage the parade like it normally is staged (starting on Elder St.) and just go down Elm to Central instead of Race?

that would be too easy. Whatever they do, it will confuse people.

Not a lot of info, but encouraging.

 

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/light-rail/fta-to-cincinnati-consider-more-streetcar.html

What the hell is Marty talking about the streetcar for? He don't live in the city of Cincinnati.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that at least half the suburban folks who come down for the parade won't even remember the difference between Elm and Race.

And the other half will only remember due to faux-outrage induced by that Enquirer article.

Portland's streetcar getting it done in the recent snowstorm out here.  Lots of other pics on the full thread of both the streetcar and light rail in the snow:  http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=209651

 

So...I was just on the bus and some guy shouted "You should drive the streetcar to Canada and take Governor Kasich to the hospital!" 

All this tells me is that streetcar conversation was so pervasive that some schizophrenics have embedded it in their subconscious.  Cheers!

What 700wlw, politicians & the Enquirer did with the streetcar message should be a study in human psychology.  They took control of the issue from the beginning with propaganda & extreme quotes, and now the people feel some emotional attachment even to the mere mention of the word.

 

 

It is funny because 700 WLW, from a newer residents perspective, actually has top notch sports coverage, which I am sure the main draw for many people.

 

But they still throw jabs and punches at the streetcar whenever they get the chance.  They  have their own agenda, keep building in the burbs, keep buying those tires and cars, etc.  Then they lure in a large, uneducated class of people that don't understand finances and are too lazy to look them up.  So what Cunningham or Connor say is their gold.  Then you have Smitherman and Murray and Cranley on there "venting" because they didn't get their way, because they couldn't pull off what their lobbyists wanted.

 

It is old school vs. new school.  And the old school wants the public to believe change is bad, they want to keep the old status quo where everyone else has already passed them by.  Heck even Iowa is more progressive, in a lot of ways.

 

Take for example my hometown Cedar Rapids, IA.  They just passed a county wide local option sales tax of 1 cent on the dollar for the next 20 years to fix infrastructure.  There this is fixing roads/pot holes caused by long winters, not rail as Cedar Rapids is mostly single family, car oriented with a metro population of approximately 250,000 people.  The city also re-vamped and rebuilt the arena, streetscaped extensively, rebuilt the hotel to jump start the downtown again after the devastating flood, and that cost them around 80 million.  They are also remaking the west side riverfront into green space parks, Amphitheatre, bike trails, and a new casino.

 

But can you imagine Hamilton County passing a 1 cent on the dollar local option sales tax for infrastructure and other strategic redevelopment?  I couldn't see it happening.

^We've passed plenty of tax increases in Hamilton County.  The stadiums, library, museum center, and zoo are all supported through HamCo taxes.  The problem is, the entire region uses these things, yet we are the only ones who end up paying for them.  Northern Kentucky and Butler, Warren, and Clermont Counties are freeloaders.

^Maybe we should be working on a modular regional transit plan then.  You could have one cohesive plan with parts that are compatible but not reliant on eachother.  So you could have portions for Cincinnati, and then Butler, Warren, Hamilton, Kenton, Campbell, and Boone counties.  Whoever chooses to fund their portion gets their portion.  If Campbell County wants Newport and NKU tied into light rail, then pass a tax.  Same with Boone County and the Florence Mall.  It would be great to have the whole transit system, but you could start a very nice system with buy in from just 3 of those 7 entities.  The others could come on board later or never.  Cincinnati's is probably the only lynchpin here, but it's also the one most likely to vote for transit.

Guys, those non-core counties (Butler, Warren, Clermont and Boone; and now ones even further out than that in both KY & OH) are built around new car-centric subdivision.  That's not going to change anytime soon.  That's why the streetcar is so important: it's a City-controlled (as much as possible) transit system designed to increase density.  Once it is in place and starts to work it's success will snowball.  Inner-ring suburbs are going to want to be connected to the City and a larger commuter system may be possible within Hamilton County.  But those far out exurbs aren't going to be interested for some time.

^We've passed plenty of tax increases in Hamilton County.  The stadiums, library, museum center, and zoo are all supported through HamCo taxes.  The problem is, the entire region uses these things, yet we are the only ones who end up paying for them.  Northern Kentucky and Butler, Warren, and Clermont Counties are freeloaders.

 

The Zoo and Museum Center property taxes are extremely small.  It's around $10 annually for one and $30 annually for the other on a $100,000 valuation.  Meanwhile the public school property tax for that same home will be around $800-1200 depending on the district.  We're paying all this money for people to go to school yet fewer than 1% of the graduates ever look anything up, meaning they're vulnerable to COAST, Dusty Rhodes, et al. 

 

What about a Hamilton County small sales tax for an in-county transportation plan?

 

Instead of the very large metro moves plan?  I am sure this was talked about before but just curious to what you all think the reception would be on that?

 

Then, other counties could see how well it works and then put their money into it.

 

Also, how high are taxes in Cincinnati / Hamilton County compared to peer cities in the region?  I could do some digging but figured some of you may know off the top of your head.

Columbus property and sales taxes are horrible.

Every tax in Columbus is higher than in Cincinnati -- earnings tax, sales tax, property tax.  Cincinnati gets tons of revenue from the various Fortune 500 salaries and the railroad income which is why it can have lower tax rates. 

 

 

What about a Hamilton County small sales tax for an in-county transportation plan?

 

Instead of the very large metro moves plan?  I am sure this was talked about before but just curious to what you all think the reception would be on that?

 

Then, other counties could see how well it works and then put their money into it.

 

Hard to say once you're talking about light rail, but since so much of the Streetcar resistance came from outside of the city limits, my guess is that Hamilton County wouldn't support it.  I hope I'm wrong about that.  That's why I suggested going to Cincinnati and each county simultaneously.  If Hamilton County did vote down a tax, but Cincinnati and perhaps Kenton or Campbell county approved taxes, you could at least start connecting Cincinnati with Covington, Newport, Bellevue, and NKU.  Start a regional grass roots movement, find out who supports what, and start building based on that.  If it turns out that Cincinnati stands alone, so be it.

I hope I'm wrong, but its still my feeling that a large chunk of those citizens 'clamoring for light rail instead of the streetcar' were just saying that to kill the streetcar.

 

For instance, Smitherman and Cranley both said "I support light rail". Does anyone honestly believe that either would support a sales tax increase or pursuing federal funds for light rail? 

 

Columbus property and sales taxes are horrible.

 

I had a 1400 sq. ft. 1970's ranch style house in Westerville and was paying $3100/yr in property taxes on it when I sold it in 2008. A year later a former neighbor told me that figure jumped to $4500/yr. Who knows what it is now!

I wonder how much of a sales tax over what period of time would need to be implemented for a successful system?  Example, half a cent over 20 years would get you x amount of light rail miles with x amount of stations, and get you x amount of streetcar miles with x amount of stations.

 

All of that said, I wonder how we can lobby to get the state to spend more of their transportation bill on fixed rail transit, or any type of public transit for that matter?

I wonder how much of a sales tax over what period of time would need to be implemented for a successful system?  Example, half a cent over 20 years would get you x amount of light rail miles with x amount of stations, and get you x amount of streetcar miles with x amount of stations.

 

All of that said, I wonder how we can lobby to get the state to spend more of their transportation bill on fixed rail transit, or any type of public transit for that matter?

 

We could.  Unfortunately the highway/oil lobby has a stranglehold on our state elected officials.  Kasich, who appointed oil men on all the transportation boards, all the way down to the state senators & representatives.  Can't really do much right now

I wonder how much of a sales tax over what period of time would need to be implemented for a successful system?  Example, half a cent over 20 years would get you x amount of light rail miles with x amount of stations, and get you x amount of streetcar miles with x amount of stations.

 

All of that said, I wonder how we can lobby to get the state to spend more of their transportation bill on fixed rail transit, or any type of public transit for that matter?

 

The distance of lines that can be built with X amount of local income is unknown because state and federal grants are unknown.  That said there are a few recent examples of lines being built entirely with local funds.  The $2 billion #7 subway extension in NYC is locally funded as was the Clayton extension of the St. Louis Metrorail.  In each case bypassing the federal process allowed construction to commence quickly.  It also can enable construction of tunnels and other features that the feds would not endorse due to the metrics by which they award funds.

 

A 1/2 cent Hamilton County sales tax would generate $60 million annually, so obviously double that for a cent.  However a significant portion of either tax hike would go to bus improvements and possibly other elements, like a culture tax.

 

So imagine a 1/2 cent sales that first pays of the stadium bonds, then switches to a split between buses, rail, and culture that would enable modest transit improvements and the elimination of the Hamilton County property taxes for the Museum Center and Cincinnati Zoo.  That tax would permit construction of a single light rail line, so better make sure it is the right project.

 

Another option is the city continuing to build-out a streetcar/light rail system with all "local" stops, then the county or multi-county tax building the "express" at some future date.

 

 

 

 

I'm generally not in favor of sales taxes, as they disproportionately hurt the poor and are, in fact, regressive taxes. This lowers the buying poor of the already poor by increasing the prices of goods and services. An extreme example of this regressiveness was the stadium deal - a tax increase in the form of a sales tax (disproportionately hurts the poor) coupled with a tax decrease in the form of a property tax rollback (disproportionately benefits wealthy with high-value homes). The stadia were truly built on the backs of the poor.

 

However, in this case, I don't see a better option. :-/ An increase in the sales tax to close the stadium deal and then invest in transit and culture would be a great solution. The only way I'd see this pass, however, would be if the Museum and Zoo levies were ended coincidentally. This would be a regressive solution, for sure. However, the poor would benefit from increased transit improvements and access.

I wonder how much of a sales tax over what period of time would need to be implemented for a successful system?  Example, half a cent over 20 years would get you x amount of light rail miles with x amount of stations, and get you x amount of streetcar miles with x amount of stations.

 

All of that said, I wonder how we can lobby to get the state to spend more of their transportation bill on fixed rail transit, or any type of public transit for that matter?

 

We could.  Unfortunately the highway/oil lobby has a stranglehold on our state elected officials.  Kasich, who appointed oil men on all the transportation boards, all the way down to the state senators & representatives.  Can't really do much right now

 

Thanks for all of the answers.  On Kasich, smh.  What are the proposed transportation policies by the challenger (Fitzgerald?) and what are his chances of being elected?  Does it look like Kasich will get another term?

 

I found this endorsement on Fitzgerald's campaign website, which is a good sign, I guess!

 

http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/uncategorized/2013/fitzgerald-receives-endorsement-transport-workers-america/

Marc Amazon of 700wlw said last night that no one is going to pay 1 dollar to ride the streetcar and then walk out right into a snow drift

 

Amy Murray also praised John Cranley late and said

 

'John Cranley is willing to work with anyone.  Look at the streetcar.  He probably had the votes to stop it but he decided to pause it '

 

Talk about revisionist history .  Completely correct...Other than the fact John Cranley  stated to Dan Hurley that he definitely would've stopped it had he had the votes.

To some people reality is overrated.

Western-Southern CEO John Barrett was just on Cunningham's show.  Declared that our tennis tournament is better than the U.S. Open because "you have to ride a subway to the tennis facility in New York".  Bragged that several of the tennis players stayed at "our" hotel on Lytle Park.  Yeah, as if they're going to stay at the Great Wolf Lodge. 

 

Add to that his comments about wishing to lure new companies to buildings his company builds on downtown property his company owns and you see why he's opposed to the streetcar and rail.  As I've mentioned previously on this thread, a tiny cabal wishes to direct all downtown development to properties that they control.  The streetcar, and certainly a county rail system, elevate the value of properties that they do not control, creating competition for their development schemes. 

'John Cranley is willing to work with anyone.  Look at the streetcar.  He probably had the votes to stop it but he decided to pause it '

 

Talk about revisionist history .  Completely correct...Other than the fact John Cranley  stated to Dan Hurley that he definitely would've stopped it had he had the votes.

 

The only reason we are getting streetcar is because Kim Jong Cranley didn't have the votes to stop it.

Western-Southern CEO John Barrett was just on Cunningham's show.  Declared that our tennis tournament is better than the U.S. Open because "you have to ride a subway to the tennis facility in New York".  Bragged that several of the tennis players stayed at "our" hotel on Lytle Park.  Yeah, as if they're going to stay at the Great Wolf Lodge. 

 

What is that guy talking about?  I'd so much rather ride a train to the tournament than to drive all the way out to Mason and park in their goofy field.  It rained the last time I went and it was a mess.

^Not to mention their volunteers are about as useless as can be.  I find the Lytle Park area so boring and dull, albeit pretty.  Western and Southern built a Residence Inn and acts like they brought a Ritz or 4 Seasons to town.  They have done very little to contribute to vibrancy in the Lytle Park area, and the way the back of their buildings face/don't interact with 5th St. makes 5th east of Broadway virtually a dead zone. The streetcar actually comes within a block of Great American Tower, so you would think that would make Barrett more for it than if he owned property on the west side of downtown.

Western-Southern CEO John Barrett was just on Cunningham's show.  Declared that our tennis tournament is better than the U.S. Open because "you have to ride a subway to the tennis facility in New York".  Bragged that several of the tennis players stayed at "our" hotel on Lytle Park.  Yeah, as if they're going to stay at the Great Wolf Lodge. 

 

Add to that his comments about wishing to lure new companies to buildings his company builds on downtown property his company owns and you see why he's opposed to the streetcar and rail.  As I've mentioned previously on this thread, a tiny cabal wishes to direct all downtown development to properties that they control.  The streetcar, and certainly a county rail system, elevate the value of properties that they do not control, creating competition for their development schemes.

 

Yeah that's so messed up.  They're not thinking about how making downtown better in general will help elevate the value of their properties as well.  The more people want to be downtown, the more demand there is, thus higher profit right?

People like Barrett are completely ignorant to the fact that young people don't want to drive everywhere. For him to claim that subway access in NYC is a downside, and not a selling point, illustrates this.

People like Barrett are completely ignorant to the fact that young people don't want to drive everywhere. For him to claim that subway access in NYC is a downside, and not a selling point, illustrates this.

 

Or could that be a class thing? He prefers to take his limo and is upset that the 7 line in NYC gets from Manhattan to Flushing faster than his driver can?

Just wanted to have some fun here with hypotheticals since the streetcar is being built and there is not much controversy over it. But assume this situation. You are the sole negotiator against Cranley on the streetcar project. Cranley has the sole power to kill the project but he knows that it will take a lot of political capital on his part to do so. You are trying to negotiate the best possible outcome for the Streetcar proponents knowing that in the end the Streetcar is going to likely meet its demise. As the negotiator, what do you seek to extract from Cranley in exchange for him killing the streetcar??

 

Again this is all in fun.

^ I think the fact that you have to ask the question shows why things worked out the way they did.  He doesn't have anything to offer, or to be extracted from him.  That's the trouble with the John Kasich, Chris Christie, Scott Walker types, they're all "no no no" to the "current plan" but they don't actually have any alternative to offer.  What Cranley is doing regarding the parking plan shows this perfectly.  There is no actual exchange being made, it's all just a one-sided ego trip.

^ I think the fact that you have to ask the question shows why things worked out the way they did.  He doesn't have anything to offer, or to be extracted from him.  That's the trouble with the John Kasich, Chris Christie, Scott Walker types, they're all "no no no" to the "current plan" but they don't actually have any alternative to offer.  What Cranley is doing regarding the parking plan shows this perfectly.  There is no actual exchange being made, it's all just a one-sided ego trip.

 

This is basically right.  These guys rely on a group of hard-core voters who are against things simply because they don't like the people proferring.  It's not a situation where any negotiation is going to work.

 

Also, these guys like the idea of fighting with people.  They are so ambitious for position and title that they've forgotten (or never had) any sense of public-spiritedness.  You can tell the contempt with which they hold ordinary folks because they are unable to get a sentence out without it being covered in bullshit (e.g. "It doesn't take $40 million to say 'No'".  The words in that sentence were utterly disconnected from the question they were responding to).  They've gotten so warped and twisted that they believe that if they win the political fight they've accomplished something of merit.

^ I think the fact that you have to ask the question shows why things worked out the way they did.  He doesn't have anything to offer, or to be extracted from him.  That's the trouble with the John Kasich, Chris Christie, Scott Walker types, they're all "no no no" to the "current plan" but they don't actually have any alternative to offer.  What Cranley is doing regarding the parking plan shows this perfectly.  There is no actual exchange being made, it's all just a one-sided ego trip.

 

Have fun with this, this is a total hypothetical game here. No need to be bitter against the Cran man here. 

 

For me personally, if I were the streetcar negotiator, in exchange for giving up on the streetcar, I would insist upon the Oasis and Wasson Lines be built.

 

What else would people ask for?

Thankfully this was passed, because I don't believe there to be any good alternative deal to negoiate.  How far it was along, how much work had been put into it, studies, federal funding, etc.

 

In my opinion, and maybe others will disagree, but in this climate this was the best way to get rail transit started in Cincinnati.  Especially because of the benefits we will see a long the lines of economic development.  This will increase population, tourism, make it a destination spot and actually make the city seem more progressive to outsiders.

 

We have all of these amazing amenities in downtown and OTR, but how are they connected?  They aren't, unless you want to take a cab, or try to figure out the bus system, or drive and pay to park, or not go at all?  It definitely isn't walkable to go from Findlay Market to Smale Riverfront and back on a consistent basis if at all.

 

With the streetcar, it is hey, come live here, all of these amazing spots are all here on this map, and you can hop on the train that goes by every 10 minutes for $1.50, and get there in 8 minutes, no car needed!

 

If you are a company recruiting an urban living professional out of Chicago, even with a higher offered salary here in Cincinnati, what incentive would they have to move if they didn't own a car?  If they used the L everyday to get to their job downtown in Chicago? etc.  People who want to live in a vibrant, car free urban core will make sure it happens, even if it means sacrificing pay.

 

That said, hypothetically I don't think there was anything net neutral to negotiate with Cranley on this, without paying loads more of money.  It would have been a lose, lose, lose deal for the city.  No other project has the economic and "tone" setting benefits that this project has.  Tone setting, as in putting the foundation for a region wide transportation system into place.

 

 

People who want to live in a vibrant, car free urban core will make sure it happens...

 

Probably they will move to Seattle, or Philidelphia, or Toronto, or Berlin, or Tokyo.

 

 

I'm stuck on the side of the freeway without gas and this time it IS the streetcar's fault!!!  I'm on a Megabus that ran out of gas on the exit ramp to the gas station. We didn't make it because the driver did three loops around OTR trying to get around the Liberty Street closure for the streetcar. Thanks for this boondoggle, Mayor Mallory. ;-)

Overheard someone this morning in otr say 'the streetcar probably won't happen' while looking at utility construction. 

If streetcar naming rights sold, stigma may keep buyers away

Corporations wary of political controversy

 

Cities across the U.S. have asked companies to invest millions on naming rights to help pay for public transportation projects in recent years.

 

There’s Philadelphia’s AT&T rail station and New York’s Barclays Bank-sponsored subway station.

 

Could Cincinnati’s P&G streetcar depot be next?

 

The idea has been advanced locally, but it’s likely a longshot. Despite spotty success elsewhere, corporate naming rights become stalled by various stigmas attached to public transportation – safety concerns and political controversy tops among them.

 

Cont

I wonder if the AP Style Guidelines discourage a headline with both "If" and "May"

It definitely isn't walkable to go from Findlay Market to Smale Riverfront and back on a consistent basis if at all.

 

With the streetcar, it is hey, come live here, all of these amazing spots are all here on this map, and you can hop on the train that goes by every 10 minutes for $1.50, and get there in 8 minutes, no car needed!

 

 

I agree that the streetcar will be useful for going from pole to pole, but I have a hard time picturing myself using it for any shorter a distance.  If you want to go from Fountain Square to Washington Park, would you walk the 6-7 blocks, or wait for a streetcar to come, pay $1.75, and then ride the short distance? I could only see myself not walking if it was pouring rain or excessively hot.