^those interiors are really sharp looking

I think it would make sense to have multiple systems.  Streetcar at surface level running local service to downtown, uptown, Walnut Hills, South Fairmount, maybe across the river, etc.  Then use the subway tunnels for more standard light rail alone the freeway corridors reaching further out (continuing the subway East with a station at the casino, then jumping onto I-71).  Then use the RTC for commuter rail along the river to Sayler Park or Lawrenceburg, Milford, and New Richmond. 

 

I'll have to draw up a map later to show what I'm talking about.

 

^ That's basically Metro Moves. 

John Schneider posted a status update on Facebook and will probably post the details here as well. In short, track construction on 12th street starts tomorrow. He also has lots of other details about how the downtown track work will progress.

In Cranley's budget document, he discusses all the development that has been going on in 2014.

Never mentions any of the streetcar work.

Here are the possibilities for future use of the subway by LRT or streetcars, listed clockwise:

 

1. LRT across new viaduct to C&O ROW to Glenway Crossing shopping center

2. LRT/Streetcars via viaduct to Harrison Ave. to proposed Westwood Town Square

3. LRT in I-74 median to stations at North Bend Rd. and Harrison Ave./Rybolt (Metromoves Line)

4. LRT/Streetcar to Knowlton's Corner, then on Hamilton Ave. north through the neighborhood, perhaps to College Hill

5. LRT to Knowlton's Corner, then on Spring Grove east to Crawford, then north on abandoned interurban ROW through Laboiteaux Woods to College Hill

6. LRT to Knowlton's Corner, then northeast on Spring Grove to Elmwood Place

7. LRT paralleling I-75

 

 

^ What about Queen City? Probably too late now, but some prep work could (have) be(en) done with the MSD project planning.

 

Edit: Since we're stretching beyond the streetcar, I made a post in the Beyond the Streetcar thread.

Atlanta's streetcar has added over $700m of economic development along the route since it was announced in 2010.

 

I hope Cincinnati is keeping track of their economic development along the route as well.  It'd be nice to retort some of the naysayers with visuals & facts of how much development its brought

A couple of nice pictures from today's event in Cleveland with VP Joe Biden where he touted federal investment in Cleveland Rapid transit stations and the Cincinnati Streetcar.....

 

State of Ohio flag surrounded by fleet of @GCRTA trains for 37-mile Cleveland rail system. Waiting for @VP to arrive

 

VP Joe Biden tours 30+ yr old Cleveland rail cars with @GCRTA CEO Joe Calabrese & Mayor Frank Jackson #RebuildAmerica

It always amazes me how seldom I see an Ohio flag in Cincinnati.

Atlanta's streetcar has added over $700m of economic development along the route since it was announced in 2010.

 

I hope Cincinnati is keeping track of their economic development along the route as well.  It'd be nice to retort some of the naysayers with visuals & facts of how much development its brought

 

The opponents will just claim that "all of that development would have happened anyway, even without the streetcar."

Here are the possibilities for future use of the subway by LRT or streetcars, listed clockwise:

 

1. LRT across new viaduct to C&O ROW to Glenway Crossing shopping center

2. LRT/Streetcars via viaduct to Harrison Ave. to proposed Westwood Town Square

3. LRT in I-74 median to stations at North Bend Rd. and Harrison Ave./Rybolt (Metromoves Line)

4. LRT/Streetcar to Knowlton's Corner, then on Hamilton Ave. north through the neighborhood, perhaps to College Hill

5. LRT to Knowlton's Corner, then on Spring Grove east to Crawford, then north on abandoned interurban ROW through Laboiteaux Woods to College Hill

6. LRT to Knowlton's Corner, then northeast on Spring Grove to Elmwood Place

7. LRT paralleling I-75

 

 

 

Add to that LRT in new tunnel from the Mohawk area to U.C and beyond. Expensive, but very fast!

The Exclusive Guideway Plan of 1976 showed a new line from the subway along MLK drive through UC and on to Norwood.

Pete Witte @petewitte 

@CincyComDev @PriceHillWill  Next big unveiling the #PriceHillStreetcar map.  Hope to see everyone there later in summer!

Uptown better get their sh*t together or else Price Hill is going to have the extension before them...

 

Uptown Businesses & prominent leaders need to publicly support the project's extension...Or else Price Hill and their leaders like Pete Witte will get their extension first

Now THAT is the type of inter-neighborhood competition I can get behind!

Seriously! If neighborhoods are competing to open extensions first that could only mean good things for more of the city. The Price Hills hold a lot of people and are quite disconnected from Downtown. It seems like the perfect opportunity to densify a corridor and offer better connectivity to the entire area.

I fully support a Price Hill Streetcar (though I'm a bit confused because crossing the Western Hills Viaduct doesn't land you in Price Hill.)  South Fairmount is going through some radical changes with the new viaduct and the Lick Run Project.  It's an absolutely beautiful valley and if it weren't so economically depressed I think it could be one of Cincinnati's most beautiful neighborhoods.  Having a streetcar run through there and connecting it to the stabilizing parts of West End and Over-the-Rhine would be a HUGE boon to the West Side. 

 

I've done countless theoretical transit maps for this city and the West Side inevitably gets screwed mostly because of the difficult topography to work with.  Having a rail spur to South Fairmount could act as a starting point to bring real development over there.

 

In the meantime, Uptown is already well connected with local bus service, the Uptown Transit District and Metro*PLUS.  A streetcar would certainly be nice up the hill, but if I had to choose between the West Side and Uptown (which is pointless, because we can work on both), I would lean toward the West Side.  I'm glad to have them on board in the regional transit discussion.

Yes very good competition.  This could turn into quite a conundrum.  If a study is done on the West Side showing great economic gains, will the West Sides come out and support, what would that do to Cranley and his administration?

 

Either way, when I think of it, I believe it would be most successful for Over the Rhine and the continued re-population and development of that area if it connected to the job centers in uptown.

 

Especially if the uptown route is fairly quick.  It will give incentive for people working at the hospital, university, etc. that you can live downtown and OTR and live a car free lifestyle.  To me it almost doubles down what can happen in the basin in terms of population gain, with high wage jobs at the north and south pole, with OTR in the middle.  Just my thoughts.

I wonder if a proposed Price Hill streetcar would help soften Cranley's stance on the issue.

I'm certainly curious what a preferred alignment to Price Hill would be.  6th Street was deprecated as a streetcar route back in the early 20th century in favor of 8th Street.  Since the 8th Street Viaduct was only recently rebuilt however, I don't see that being a particularly palatable option, though it would be the most direct.  The only option left then is Gest Street, short of taking a VERY circuitous route across the Western Hills Viaduct through South Fairmount. 

 

Anything going through the lower part of the Mill Creek Valley though has to traverse a good mile and a half of depopulated industrial brownfields full of viaducts, railroads, massive surface streets, and flood barriers, while barely skirting the West End without taking another zig-zagging detour.  Even after managing all that, THEN you get to the slogging climb up the hill, which on either Glenway or Warsaw is an 8 1/2% grade, higher than what these modern streetcars are apparently able to handle (if I recall, the cutoff is somewhere around 7%), let alone light rail vehicles. 

I wonder if going up Sunset, Quebec, or Grand would be an option rather than Glenway/Warsaw... Its a little out of the way, but I think the grade may be a bit easier. Or perhaps Elberon?

I don't think streetcar's going up any hills is the answer. I would much rather see streetcar circulators in neighborhoods and then using M+ bus's to connect the different streetcar's.

Elberon has some funky elevation data but as best as I can tell it's about a 6% grade at the worst.  That's doable, the trick is how to navigate the new Waldvogel Viaduct interchanges to actually get from State to Elberon in the first place.  Still, other than hitting Lower Price Hill on the way, that's an awful lot of track that would need to be laid through nothingness with little development potential just to get there. 

 

Sunset, Quebec, and Grand would probably be doable technically, but like I said that's very circuitous from downtown and OTR.  It'd be like taking Ludlow or MLK to get to uptown from downtown. 

This would be one way to get over the river, highway, and train tracks.

http://s93.photobucket.com/user/CletusR/media/FlyingStreetcar.jpg.html

 

I don't think streetcar's going up any hills is the answer. I would much rather see streetcar circulators in neighborhoods and then using M+ bus's to connect the different streetcar's.

 

Completely agree.  We really need to get the word out on Metro*PLUS.  It's an awesome service. 

Pete Witte has also been in support of those gondola's like aerial trams Portland has as well

I wonder if going up Sunset, Quebec, or Grand would be an option rather than Glenway/Warsaw... Its a little out of the way, but I think the grade may be a bit easier. Or perhaps Elberon?

 

This is why I think getting a streetcar over to South Fairmount alone makes the most sense.  West Siders will see what an economic engine it is and they we can just let them fight over whether they want it to go to Westwood, Western Hills or Price Hill.

It would make more sense for a high-speed, greater-spaced-stops light rail line to run in the subway tunnels from Reading to the Western Hills viaduct and across to S Fairmount, then follow QC Blvd out to Sunset ->Guerly (either at or below grade through the intersection of Guerly & Glenway), and then along Glenway to a terminus at Glenway Crossings. Then, a streetcar line (or two) could connect up at Glenway/Guerly that would loop through E Price Hill and W Price Hill, while another line met at the base of the WH Viaduct on the west side to loop through L Price Hill.

Now THAT is the type of inter-neighborhood competition I can get behind!

 

Now we need Newport and Covington leaders to step up start fighting for a streetcar extension into Northern Kentucky. Both cities passed resolutions in support of the streetcar in 2009, but I can not find the names of any of the elected officials who signed onto those resolutions.

THEN you get to the slogging climb up the hill, which on either Glenway or Warsaw is an 8 1/2% grade, higher than what these modern streetcars are apparently able to handle (if I recall, the cutoff is somewhere around 7%), let alone light rail vehicles. 

 

"We live in a city of hills and valleys, so we're bound to have some tunnels and bridges." - John Schneider

 

I think we should focus on taking the viaduct to south Fairnount, and densifying/repopulating the Queen City/Westwood Ave. corridor as a first phase in the Westside. Then worry about how we connect that to Price Hill (probably including a tunnel somehow, somewhere).

 

I used to think Lower Price Hill would be the best place to start repopulating the West Side, and I still think it's a very important focus point, but I don't see it getting a streetcar/LRT link in the early years of construction, so I now think this spot just across the Western Hills Viaduct is the best place to start. It has good bones and limitless opportunity. It's also a flat spot in a part of the city where, as you pointed out, topography is a bear.

^ It's pretty tiny though.  If you look at the "zone of influence" of the streetcar study and overlaid that over South Fairmount, you'd see much of it covering unbuildable or at least rough hillsides.  Plus the Lick Run MSD project seems to want to ream out the core of the neighborhood rather than build it up.  I think the more important thing would be the development potential on the east side of the viaduct, specifically whatever route is used through the West End, Brighton, etc., whether that's subway or surface. 

Sweet!  The Streetcar just got another $268,000.

 

Use it or lose it: Old Grant Funds Transferred to Streetcar

May 20, 2014 - News Releases 2014

 

No other eligible use for $268,278 in federal rail funding granted to SORTA in 1996

 

CINCINNATI – The choice was simple: transfer old, unused federal rail funding to the Cincinnati Streetcar project or lose these dollars for the region.

 

 

http://www.go-metro.com/news/404/58/Use-it-or-lose-it-Old-Grant-Funds-Transferred-to-Streetcar

The FTA agreed to allow SORTA to expend $608,484 of the funding for the Metro bus system.  Rather than losing the balance of the grant, FTA suggested that SORTA transfer the remaining $268,278 to the Cincinnati Streetcar project, which is the only active rail project in the region.

 

Happy to see that the streetcar is getting some unexpected funding, but it's odd that the FTA allowed $608k of an $876k "rail-related" grant to be used on a bus system.  Seems like they should have either allowed the repurposing of the whole $876k or none of it.  Seems weird, that's all.

^ It's pretty tiny though.  If you look at the "zone of influence" of the streetcar study and overlaid that over South Fairmount, you'd see much of it covering unbuildable or at least rough hillsides.  Plus the Lick Run MSD project seems to want to ream out the core of the neighborhood rather than build it up.  I think the more important thing would be the development potential on the east side of the viaduct, specifically whatever route is used through the West End, Brighton, etc., whether that's subway or surface. 

 

You're definitely right about that, it's in a narrow valley. But it is dense and offers a potential seed for development of the Westside and a place for connections to BRT or future rail lines.

 

I have to take a look at the MSD project, as I do remember that being an area with a couple dates with the wrecking ball. Though if they are tearing everything up there, it could be a good opportunity to build the streets back up with some rail on the cheap, just like doing so with a new viaduct. Small walkshed or not, if it's cheap to construct it might be worth it.

^ It's pretty tiny though.  If you look at the "zone of influence" of the streetcar study and overlaid that over South Fairmount, you'd see much of it covering unbuildable or at least rough hillsides.  Plus the Lick Run MSD project seems to want to ream out the core of the neighborhood rather than build it up.  I think the more important thing would be the development potential on the east side of the viaduct, specifically whatever route is used through the West End, Brighton, etc., whether that's subway or surface. 

 

You're definitely right about that, it's in a narrow valley. But it is dense and offers a potential seed for development of the Westside and a place for connections to BRT or future rail lines.

 

I have to take a look at the MSD project, as I do remember that being an area with a couple dates with the wrecking ball. Though if they are tearing everything up there, it could be a good opportunity to build the streets back up with some rail on the cheap, just like doing so with a new viaduct. Small walkshed or not, if it's cheap to construct it might be worth it.

 

Here's a link to the conceptual renderings of Lick Run:  http://projectgroundwork.org/downloads/lickrun/CDW3_Posters.pdf

 

We're starting to get a little off topic, but looking at those renderings, I could absolutely see the park being a catalyst for development on the North side of Queen City Avenue and the South side of Westwood Ave.  Even if the architecture is terrible on either side of the par (which I don't anticipate) having that sight line between the two streets could create some nice, walkable neighborhood connectivity.  Throw a streetcar running along those streets and it's a perfect little urban village.

Elberon has some funky elevation data but as best as I can tell it's about a 6% grade at the worst.  That's doable, the trick is how to navigate the new Waldvogel Viaduct interchanges to actually get from State to Elberon in the first place.  Still, other than hitting Lower Price Hill on the way, that's an awful lot of track that would need to be laid through nothingness with little development potential just to get there. 

 

Sunset, Quebec, and Grand would probably be doable technically, but like I said that's very circuitous from downtown and OTR.  It'd be like taking Ludlow or MLK to get to uptown from downtown.

 

While Queensgate could eventually be redeveloped into something great, it would likely require the repositioning of far too much highway to work, at least for now.  The only sensible West Side streetcar route is across the Western Hills Viaduct, because it could then take you up McMillan to Clifton or down McMillan to OTR/Downtown.  But that's okay!  Having that connection is more psychological than anything else.  The real change would be what the Streetcar would do in neighborhoods like Price Hill or Fairmount.  You get enough density for foot traffic to have sustainable walkable neighborhood business districts, but most people will still live in single family detached houses with cars and garages.

 

Now if you combined that with a light rail loop that took you from the western side of the Mill Creek to Downtown, out the Oasis line past Lunken, through Highland/Ridge to Bond Hill at Seymour, through Carthage past P&G's Center Hill campus & Ivorydale, through Northside back down to the West Side, you'd connect it to some newly developable empolyment zones, plus a couple (like Center Hill and the Paddock interchange) which are mid-major employment zones (Downtown & Clifton/Pill Hill being the big leagues).

 

Here's a link to the conceptual renderings of Lick Run:  http://projectgroundwork.org/downloads/lickrun/CDW3_Posters.pdf

 

We're starting to get a little off topic, but looking at those renderings, I could absolutely see the park being a catalyst for development on the North side of Queen City Avenue and the South side of Westwood Ave.  Even if the architecture is terrible on either side of the par (which I don't anticipate) having that sight line between the two streets could create some nice, walkable neighborhood connectivity.  Throw a streetcar running along those streets and it's a perfect little urban village.

 

While the renderings are lovely, let's not forget the discrepancy between the renderings of the original Banks plan and the absolutely insipid apartments on top of parking garages which are on top of underground parking garages that we actually got.  I wouldn't trust for a second that that's how the final product will look.

 

Also, let's think hard about this: Do we have an example where removing a streetscape and replacing it with parkland causes development, or at least the dense urban development we need?  I'm not talking about replacing industrial warehouse and train track filled bottom land with a park like on the river (and all those Captain's Watches and Currents are hardly the type of development we want, nor did they spring up on their own volition), nor am I talking about replacing a massive urban highway with a park such as in Seoul.  I'm talking about replacing a legit, if worn down, neighborhood with an open sewer that the powers that be will call a park.  I seriously doubt that is going to spark much of anything.

 

The lesson from 3CDC in OTR is that if you spend enough money, you can make something nice.  Everybody already knew about location, location, location.  Since Fairmount won't be gaining location with a park, I doubt ripping out the heart and soul of the place and replacing it with empty space between two major roads is going to help the neighborhood.

Thanks, ProkNo5. It's been a long time since I looked at that.

 

Okay, yeah, they are completely annihilating the density and bones of the area. IMO this is all the more reason to go back to the drawing board with a transit corridor in mind. Combine the Viaduct and Lick Run projects with a plan for the "stream" to be surrounded by TOD. It's like adding pennies onto these massive, expensive projects. Making that space parkland is a joke, as PAlexander says. Westside leaders should be acting quickly to turn this into a positive instead of a negative.

Queensgate was created after Ohio enabled the municipal earnings tax in 1947.  This meant every city in the state started clearing "slums" in the 1950s with the goal to replace money-losing residential with money-making industry.  The plan backfired because its timing coincided with the exodus of industry from Ohio and the United States.  Nevertheless Queensgate as-is generates more income for the city than it would replaced with a forest of 3-story yuppie apartment blocks.  And I don't think that we want to distract people with money to spend on homes, condos, and apartments from depressed residential areas.     

 

South Fairmount looks much more significant on a map or in person than it is.  Depending on where you draw the border, it has between 200-300 homes.  There are many suburban subdivisions with that many homes.  Westwood and Queen City combined might have fewer homes than just Chase Ave. in Northside, which is a similar length. 

 

 

 

Sweet!  The Streetcar just got another $268,000.

 

Use it or lose it: Old Grant Funds Transferred to Streetcar

May 20, 2014 - News Releases 2014

 

No other eligible use for $268,278 in federal rail funding granted to SORTA in 1996

 

CINCINNATI – The choice was simple: transfer old, unused federal rail funding to the Cincinnati Streetcar project or lose these dollars for the region.

 

 

http://www.go-metro.com/news/404/58/Use-it-or-lose-it-Old-Grant-Funds-Transferred-to-Streetcar

 

Hopefully that will help cover the shenanigans that the illustrious mayor tried to pull late last year.

Queensgate was created after Ohio enabled the municipal earnings tax in 1947.  This meant every city in the state started clearing "slums" in the 1950s with the goal to replace money-losing residential with money-making industry.  The plan backfired because its timing coincided with the exodus of industry from Ohio and the United States.  Nevertheless Queensgate as-is generates more income for the city than it would replaced with a forest of 3-story yuppie apartment blocks. 

 

Indeed, the reason Groveport is so much nicer than it was when I was little is becuase it added so much commercial and light industrial. The population only increased by 1000 or so since then, but they were able to make all kinds of infrastructure improvements such as sidewalks, streetscapes and parks. Adding a bunch of residential instead would just make portable classrooms show up at the schools then the school system would have to beg the residents and the state for money. As if Groveport didn't have enough school levy problems already.

How about getting to the west side via 8th st, you could  come in on 7th  go all the way to Broadway then come back out on 9th.

west 8th is Glenway (that's what it turns into) then just take Glenway as far as you can afford.  Or is Glenway to steep?

Glenway and Warsaw are probably too steep.  Elberon is not but it's probably too circuitous. 

Queensgate was created after Ohio enabled the municipal earnings tax in 1947.  This meant every city in the state started clearing "slums" in the 1950s with the goal to replace money-losing residential with money-making industry.  The plan backfired because its timing coincided with the exodus of industry from Ohio and the United States.  Nevertheless Queensgate as-is generates more income for the city than it would replaced with a forest of 3-story yuppie apartment blocks.  And I don't think that we want to distract people with money to spend on homes, condos, and apartments from depressed residential areas.     

 

South Fairmount looks much more significant on a map or in person than it is.  Depending on where you draw the border, it has between 200-300 homes.  There are many suburban subdivisions with that many homes.  Westwood and Queen City combined might have fewer homes than just Chase Ave. in Northside, which is a similar length. 

 

All the homes on south side Of QC will be wiped out for the  MSD 'ditch project" Qc is being turned into a 2 way street. Westwood will be turned into a limited  4 lane parkway, which means Everything on the North side is bulldozed for MSD and everything on the south side is bulldozed for the 4 lane road.

 

There is talk of trying to do a main street type project on QC but the only building/restoration options you have are the two streets above it. Maybe 50-60 homes tops. If you go up to Harrison, there are 'view opportunities of the 'ditch'. You have to go up to Knox Hill to get any housing of decent size and condition 200 plus homes there ranging from 500 sq ft shotguns to 9000 sq ft mansions. KHNA has locked down a lot of that property to  get it back to single family and has lots for new infill and is working with developers on that.

 

The key redevelopment area is The Knox Hill overlook District on lower Knox and Waverly . You have Lunkenheimer 2 which is becoming artist studio space. You have the Lunken office building at Waverly perfect for 12-15 loft condos, you have the 5 story 38,000 sq foot Textile building on Beekman with incredible city views 15-20 condos. The whole hillside edging up to the park has commanding views of the viaduct and the city and is perhaps the "best kept secrete view" of the city. Especially at night. There are 4 urban renovation projects on Bloom and lower Knox now  with planed rooftop decks and a new mixed use live/work infill being planned. The overlook district plans calls for 80-90 new housing units be they restorations, condos or new infill view homes. Also the creation of a neighborhood business/retail core on Beekman north of Lunkenheimer between  there and Knox.

 

Having said that, the people that seem to be interested in moving to Knox Hill are preservationists or professionals who could care less about mass transit and are more interested in 2-3 car garage space incorporated in new construction. The OTR model/interest in mass transit does not seem to interest those in that area.

 

Had the city not demoed so much the neighborhood would be must further along. It took a federal HUD complaint to stop the stupidity. Knox Hill is turning around in spite of the city and most would just as soon they, and others, stop trying to come up with 'creative' ideas to spur redevelopment. They really just need to get out of the way.

I believe I saw this referenced earlier in this thread in getting the streetcar to Price Hill, but why not run a short tunnel under the location of the old incline?  Less than a half mile tunnel could start at W. 8th/State and emerge at W. 8th/Grand then either continue running up W. 8th to Elberon or turn and head up Grand to Warsaw.  This could make for an easier entry into the neighborhood than either Warsaw or Glenway and access all that residential in the Incline District.  It would be similar to the Sunset Tunnel in San Francisco.

Queensgate was created after Ohio enabled the municipal earnings tax in 1947.  This meant every city in the state started clearing "slums" in the 1950s with the goal to replace money-losing residential with money-making industry.  The plan backfired because its timing coincided with the exodus of industry from Ohio and the United States.  Nevertheless Queensgate as-is generates more income for the city than it would replaced with a forest of 3-story yuppie apartment blocks.  And I don't think that we want to distract people with money to spend on homes, condos, and apartments from depressed residential areas.     

 

South Fairmount looks much more significant on a map or in person than it is.  Depending on where you draw the border, it has between 200-300 homes.  There are many suburban subdivisions with that many homes.  Westwood and Queen City combined might have fewer homes than just Chase Ave. in Northside, which is a similar length. 

 

All the homes on south side Of QC will be wiped out for the  MSD 'ditch project" Qc is being turned into a 2 way street. Westwood will be turned into a limited  4 lane parkway, which means Everything on the North side is bulldozed for MSD and everything on the south side is bulldozed for the 4 lane road.

 

There is talk of trying to do a main street type project on QC but the only building/restoration options you have are the two streets above it. Maybe 50-60 homes tops. If you go up to Harrison, there are 'view opportunities of the 'ditch'. You have to go up to Knox Hill to get any housing of decent size and condition 200 plus homes there ranging from 500 sq ft shotguns to 9000 sq ft mansions. KHNA has locked down a lot of that property to  get it back to single family and has lots for new infill and is working with developers on that.

 

The key redevelopment area is The Knox Hill overlook District on lower Knox and Waverly . You have Lunkenheimer 2 which is becoming artist studio space. You have the Lunken office building at Waverly perfect for 12-15 loft condos, you have the 5 story 38,000 sq foot Textile building on Beekman with incredible city views 15-20 condos. The whole hillside edging up to the park has commanding views of the viaduct and the city and is perhaps the "best kept secrete view" of the city. Especially at night. There are 4 urban renovation projects on Bloom and lower Knox now  with planed rooftop decks and a new mixed use live/work infill being planned. The overlook district plans calls for 80-90 new housing units be they restorations, condos or new infill view homes. Also the creation of a neighborhood business/retail core on Beekman north of Lunkenheimer between  there and Knox.

 

Having said that, the people that seem to be interested in moving to Knox Hill are preservationists or professionals who could care less about mass transit and are more interested in 2-3 car garage space incorporated in new construction. The OTR model/interest in mass transit does not seem to interest those in that area.

 

Had the city not demoed so much the neighborhood would be must further along. It took a federal HUD complaint to stop the stupidity. Knox Hill is turning around in spite of the city and most would just as soon they, and others, stop trying to come up with 'creative' ideas to spur redevelopment. They really just need to get out of the way.

 

I know someone who bought a home in a perfect state of repair in Cheviot in 2013 for $35,000 and a second one in early 2014 for his daughter for $20,000.  You're blaming "the city" for people not paying attention to Knox Hill but the fact is there are tons of homes that don't need any work on the market right now for under $50,000.  How do you justify buying a burnt-out house in South Fairmount for $10,000 then spending $50,000+ to get it habitable when you can spend less for a functioning house nearby?

 

I believe I saw this referenced earlier in this thread in getting the streetcar to Price Hill, but why not run a short tunnel under the location of the old incline?  Less than a half mile tunnel could start at W. 8th/State and emerge at W. 8th/Grand then either continue running up W. 8th to Elberon or turn and head up Grand to Warsaw.  This could make for an easier entry into the neighborhood than either Warsaw or Glenway and access all that residential in the Incline District.  It would be similar to the Sunset Tunnel in San Francisco.

 

There was a proposal for a vehicular tunnel doing this exact thing back in the 1930s so people have been speculating about this for a long time.  A light rail tunnel about one mile long could surface around St. Lawrence Church with a deep station under Elberon.   

 

I know someone who bought a home in a perfect state of repair in Cheviot in 2013 for $35,000 and a second one in early 2014 for his daughter for $20,000.  You're blaming "the city" for people not paying attention to Knox Hill but the fact is there are tons of homes that don't need any work on the market right now for under $50,000.  How do you justify buying a burnt-out house in South Fairmount for $10,000 then spending $50,000+ to get it habitable when you can spend less for a functioning house nearby?

 

 

Interesting except one of the Bloom Street Townhome renos is already presold as build to suit at 245K. The Carriage loft  New Urbanist renovation is retailing at 265K and the new construction infil project is over 400K and the architect is working with the client on design. I have to show a Second empire townhome to a prospective buyer from Raleigh/durham NC who WANTS to move to Knox Hill because he likes the progress and restoration vibe of the neighborhood. Same with the couple from NYC who are getting ready to drop 150K restoring a Victorian on 3 lots being sold though KHNA's save not Raze program, Or the guy whose already dropped 80K so far on restoration on a  house he won in a bidding war up near the park? Or the guy across the street from our own Nagele Merz house who is investing 125K in a second empire shotgun, or maybe the OTR realtor who bought a brick craftsman cottage up here and is throwing major bucks into it because its ridiculous to pay 100K for shell in OTR.

 

Lot of people have no problem justifying investing in Knox Hill.. but then, I bet you didn't buy in Mt Adams years ago or Columbia Tusculum when it was run down?

 

I know someone who bought a home in a perfect state of repair in Cheviot in 2013 for $35,000 and a second one in early 2014 for his daughter for $20,000.  You're blaming "the city" for people not paying attention to Knox Hill but the fact is there are tons of homes that don't need any work on the market right now for under $50,000.  How do you justify buying a burnt-out house in South Fairmount for $10,000 then spending $50,000+ to get it habitable when you can spend less for a functioning house nearby?

 

 

Interesting except one of the Bloom Street Townhome renos is already presold as build to suit at 245K. The Carriage loft  New Urbanist renovation is retailing at 265K and the new construction infil project is over 400K and the architect is working with the client on design. I have to show a Second empire townhome to a prospective buyer from Raleigh/durham NC who WANTS to move to Knox Hill because he likes the progress and restoration vibe of the neighborhood. Same with the couple from NYC who are getting ready to drop 150K restoring a Victorian on 3 lots being sold though KHNA's save not Raze program, Or the guy whose already dropped 80K so far on restoration on a  house he won in a bidding war up near the park? Or the guy across the street from our own Nagele Merz house who is investing 125K in a second empire shotgun, or maybe the OTR realtor who bought a brick craftsman cottage up here and is throwing major bucks into it because its ridiculous to pay 100K for shell in OTR.

 

Lot of people have no problem justifying investing in Knox Hill.. but then, I bet you didn't buy in Mt Adams years ago or Columbia Tusculum when it was run down?

 

Just trying to make out the purpose of your post, as I am confused. Are you saying everyone who has invested in the neighborhood has been rewarded? If so that is a handsome proposition. I just doubt it is a fact. Speculation on rehab property is just that - speculation. Come out fine or lose your ass. How many have done the later?

 

If it was so easy there would be no property waiting for rehab in Cincinnati. Speculators with a few coins would have already bought it all up and rehabbed it. Sorry, I just am not ready to say buy, rehab, sell you will be rich.

 

 

I'm also guessing that the wealthy rehabbers in Knox Hill don't want anyone living in a $50,000 home down the street from them!  Let's face it, an Empire rehab is nice for someone who can afford it, but as a nice middle class home, it is probably severly lacking.

 

Restored neighborhoods cannot be the goal for everyone.  Everyone can't afford it.

Neighborhoods turn around because people see the value of living there, personally I see no value for me in  Cheviot. People buy a home because they like it, its location or the neighborhood its in. Their main priority is not if its on an streetcar line. its usually "Do I like this neighborhood" In my capacity as neighborhood president, everyone I am dealing with likes the architecture, history and location.

 

Most people involved in Preservation are not thinking "boy I'm going to make a mint". We got rid of the investor types by making them mow their grass, not let homes sit, and explaining how Ohio receivership laws work. We have made it difficult for speculators by eliminating the supply of cheap houses and through our save not raze program attaching preservation covenants and time requirements to stop the slumlord revolving door.

 

Now people buying are committed to turning them around,and with that,a neighborhood. Preservationists willing to make financial commitment, are what turns around a neighborhood, not a trolley, streetcar or railroad

 

 

^^I'm sorry, but "access to transit" absolutely is a factor for many people, especially Millennials, when considering where to live. Just because it's not a factor for you doesn't mean it's unimportant for everyone else.