People move into these neighborhoods for plenty of reasons.  Some choose to restore an old building for the preservation while others just want to live in a hip trendy neighborhood with options (transit, food, etc).  I'm sure there are countless other reasons.

^^I'm sorry, but "access to transit" absolutely is a factor for many people, especially Millennials, when considering where to live. Just because it's not a factor for you doesn't mean it's unimportant for everyone else.

 

The problem for Millennials is, with OTR selling at 300 per sq ft and up, Millennials (often burdened with huge student loan debt are not likely to have the 20 percent required these days ( 54,000 down payment) on a 900 sq ft loft selling for 270K. So the people the streetcar is aimed at wont be able to afford to live in OTR.  OTR will stand for "Only the Rich" and people are already trying to figure out how to engineer car lifts in 2 story carriage houses for they have room for 4 cars. OTR is probably going to look more like DuPont circle in DC than some multi income 20 somethings playground. Millennials are being passed by in the OTR grand scheme of things.

^ I dunno about this. AAA says Cincinnatians spend about $9,000 each year on their cars.  Getting rid of the car and living your life around the streetcar line -- those annual savings, or a large fraction of them, will cover $100,000 of the mortgage. If we're going to repopulate our Cincinnati, we're going to have to move money from the highway economy to the neighborhood economy, which is what is happening in much of the CBD and OTR right now.

I think you're underestimating the number of undeveloped properties still available for future development and overestimating the demand for high-end condos in OTR.

 

There is no way the price/sqft in OTR will remain this high in 5-10 years when the population of the neighborhood doubles. Right now there are not enough units in the market to meet demand. That is why prices are so high. They will go down as more properties become available. I still think they will be higher than the average Cincinnati neighborhood (by a lot), but not at the prices you are quoting.

I think you're underestimating the number of undeveloped properties still available for future development and overestimating the demand for high-end condos in OTR.

 

There is no way the price/sqft in OTR will remain this high in 5-10 years when the population of the neighborhood doubles. Right now there are not enough units in the market to meet demand. That is why prices are so high. They will go down as more properties become available. I still think they will be higher than the average Cincinnati neighborhood (by a lot), but not at the prices you are quoting.

 

Price has nothing to do with demand in this case in OTR. Price has to do with the high cost of acquisition of the shell, the cost of specialized trades to bring 150 yr old buildings up to modern code, city permit fees, architect fees, and the logistical cost of renovating in urbanely dense neighborhood without staging sites. Those cost are going one way...UP! At 300 per square  and with some subsidies and tax credits thrown in, 3CDC  are not making a lot of money. The cost of shells has tripled since 2008 and its going one way ..UP!

 

OTR will likely eclipse Mt Adams prices within the next 12-18 months. Where the real money is made is in the buildings (currently low income) rentals when the subsidies run out and those units can go market rate (with a better build out) and probably combined as larger units that will be over a mill in 5-7 yrs.

 

That will be the next phase those small 300 sq ft condos get bought and combined to make super luxurious spaces.

 

I've watch this same thing happen in several cities, Cincinnati will be no different.

Not to nitpick, but very few properties are $300/sq. ft. or more. Most are in the $140-$230 per square foot range. That's a huge difference in price compared to what you're saying.

Not to nitpick, but very few properties are $300/sq. ft. or more. Most are in the $190-$230 per square foot range. That's a huge difference in price compared to what you're saying.

 

And 5 years ago the average cost in OTR was 80-130 K for a  1 bedroom condo with build out around 100-120 sq ft. The neighborhood has moved well beyond starter housing for 20 somethings, even rentals are hard to find in an affordable range.

 

Average cost per square ft (buildout new condos ) in New York is 1369 a sq ft, get downtown that goes to 5487 sq ft in Manhatten, Los Angeles is 607 per square, Austin Texas has broken the 450 a sq ft mark. Seattle is 697 sq ft. Portland which is what OTR thinks it wants to be, is  451 a sq.

 

My point is  OTR is  relatively small area, restricted as to building height and can only hold X number of properties, Its only going up. 10 years ago my old neighborhood near downtown Indy I predicted vacant city lots for 38-52K and new houses would be built topping 500k , most people said I was crazy. Turns out I nailed it

Queensgate was created after Ohio enabled the municipal earnings tax in 1947.  This meant every city in the state started clearing "slums" in the 1950s with the goal to replace money-losing residential with money-making industry.  The plan backfired because its timing coincided with the exodus of industry from Ohio and the United States.  Nevertheless Queensgate as-is generates more income for the city than it would replaced with a forest of 3-story yuppie apartment blocks.  And I don't think that we want to distract people with money to spend on homes, condos, and apartments from depressed residential areas.     

 

South Fairmount looks much more significant on a map or in person than it is.  Depending on where you draw the border, it has between 200-300 homes.  There are many suburban subdivisions with that many homes.  Westwood and Queen City combined might have fewer homes than just Chase Ave. in Northside, which is a similar length. 

 

All the homes on south side Of QC will be wiped out for the  MSD 'ditch project" Qc is being turned into a 2 way street. Westwood will be turned into a limited  4 lane parkway, which means Everything on the North side is bulldozed for MSD and everything on the south side is bulldozed for the 4 lane road.

 

There is talk of trying to do a main street type project on QC but the only building/restoration options you have are the two streets above it. Maybe 50-60 homes tops. If you go up to Harrison, there are 'view opportunities of the 'ditch'. You have to go up to Knox Hill to get any housing of decent size and condition 200 plus homes there ranging from 500 sq ft shotguns to 9000 sq ft mansions. KHNA has locked down a lot of that property to  get it back to single family and has lots for new infill and is working with developers on that.

 

The key redevelopment area is The Knox Hill overlook District on lower Knox and Waverly . You have Lunkenheimer 2 which is becoming artist studio space. You have the Lunken office building at Waverly perfect for 12-15 loft condos, you have the 5 story 38,000 sq foot Textile building on Beekman with incredible city views 15-20 condos. The whole hillside edging up to the park has commanding views of the viaduct and the city and is perhaps the "best kept secrete view" of the city. Especially at night. There are 4 urban renovation projects on Bloom and lower Knox now  with planed rooftop decks and a new mixed use live/work infill being planned. The overlook district plans calls for 80-90 new housing units be they restorations, condos or new infill view homes. Also the creation of a neighborhood business/retail core on Beekman north of Lunkenheimer between  there and Knox.

 

Having said that, the people that seem to be interested in moving to Knox Hill are preservationists or professionals who could care less about mass transit and are more interested in 2-3 car garage space incorporated in new construction. The OTR model/interest in mass transit does not seem to interest those in that area.

 

Had the city not demoed so much the neighborhood would be must further along. It took a federal HUD complaint to stop the stupidity. Knox Hill is turning around in spite of the city and most would just as soon they, and others, stop trying to come up with 'creative' ideas to spur redevelopment. They really just need to get out of the way.

 

I guess I'm not really understanding your opposition here.  It sounds like you're a bit frustrated with the city, but now they're actually talking about investing in the neighborhood you've so thoughtfully cared for and I'm not understanding how that's a bad thing.

 

I can agree that most who will rehab properties on Knox and Waverly won't be the types to take transit, but there are a lot of young people looking to live in higher density mixed use buildings along transit corridors.  South Fairmount has one of the few flat areas in the city.  I can also agree that it's frustrating to see even more buildings get leveled when we've already lost so many.  (Trust me, I'm in pain every time I see a building torn down.  I LOVE old buildings.)  But if the state is so hell bent on spending Moving Ohio Forward money on leveling buildings, it might as well be for transformative projects like Lick Run.  While there will only be a few original buildings left to restore in the business district, there will also be plenty of room to develop mixed use buildings alongside.  ***Something which is a HUGE bargaining chip with transit projects.

 

I also really don't get why you're calling it a "ditch" project and others on here seem to brush it off as an open sewer.  Have any of you seen other daylighting projects?  They're beautiful and create active recreation space.  Check out the Saw Mill River in Yonkers, NY.  http://daylightyonkers.com/  That's just a good example of literally hundreds of projects like this.  I was living in Milwaukee when they daylit the Kinnickinnick River and it really changed the way the neighborhood viewed the river.  People became proud of it and rallied together to build a bike trail along it. 

 

Someone else compared the before and after of the Banks to Lick Run.  I agree that we've got some awful developers in town when it comes to keeping promises, but we also have the Cincinnati Parks which has repeatedly wowed us with not only their park capital projects, but also with maintenance.  With Cincinnati Parks on board, Lick Run could become a real destination.

 

With enough vision injected into these major projects affecting South Fairmount, there's a real opportunity to create an active business district.  With an active business district in the basin of South Fairmount, the surrounding neighborhoods (including Knox Hill) can leverage those assets to get more historic structures renovated.  If we just don't bother to make anything of significance our of this project (which is federally mandated I might add...it's happening whether we want it or not) we'll be left with the same aging buildings we have today.  If the Lick Run projects comes together and transit gets thoughtfully added to the neighborhood, and some mixed use buildings along QC or Westwood get rehabbed, I'd actually consider moving over there.  (My rent in OTR isn't getting cheaper)  I guess then I'd have to call myself a Westsider and be proud of it.

there will be 3 blocks on north side on QC left , 5 buildings untouched on the south side. Westwood BLVD is history both sides. All those pretty drawing plans are being scaled back and what we will have what looks like the Pogues Run art park in Indy , a stagnant , mosquito infested ditch.

 

There is no money for redevelopment, MSD doesn't have it, city doesn't have it. People will be up in arms about sewer bills tripling or quadrupling in the next few years. MORE importantly if the daylighting doesn't reach the EPA benchmarks, they may wind up doing deep tunnel after all. I went to numerous meetings and I've watched this get scaled back to what its going to be a drainage ditch with delusions of grandeur to a drainage ditch/swamp.

Deep tunnel is a terrible idea.  It's been tested and failed numerous times.  It's also more expensive than daylighting.  Also, Pogue's Run is not that bad.  The only reason it's not as accessible is because there are too many old growth trees around it.  Lick Run won't have nearly that many.  If Cincinnati Parks gets involved, it could be maintained as an active space.

 

Anyway, the point of this discussion as it relates to the streetcar is that there's potential right now to create a sense of place down there and adding rail transit to the Western Hills Viaduct would certainly help that.

Right, it will be cheap to build light rail/streetcar through that area since it won't have to be in the street and conflict with utilities.  However it's important for the tracks to run on the top deck of a new viaduct since they could easily align with McMillan St. and reach UC and the hospitals.  If transit is built after the new viaduct as a separate structure, a line could easily access the subway but couldn't branch to reach UC via McMillan St. without creating some sort of awkward situation at Central Parkway. 

 

Ideally there would be a line going to Glenway Crossings via the old C&O ROW and another up Harrison Ave. to the proposed Westwood Square and Cheviot.  Those lines would join near the McDonald's, cross the viaduct together, and some streetcars would travel downtown and others up the hill to UC. 

 

These are photos from Tuesday May 20, 2014:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great pics!  They're really cruising on construction. The station at 14th and Elm is beautiful. Not sure if you went by Findlay Market, but they incorporated a greet into that station. Really thoughtful design choices all around. I'm really curious to see what the catenary poles will look like.

 

I'm also not really understanding the station on Central Parkway. There's going to be one there, right?  I thought it was right at Walnut, but it looks like they're rebuilding a curb there right now.

 

Lastly, I LOVE the pics of all the development. I can't wait to see how that new house turns out. They got the massing right. Still can't decide if Id prefer modern or faux historic materials. Leaning toward modern.

 

That said, I still HATE the windows below. What the heck was the architect thinking!?!

 

 

 

I agree that the new house looks very nice and will become one of the most valuable houses in the downtown area if they are in fact going to have a yard on the two vacant lots to its south, which is what it looks like currently.  There is no such thing as a house like that with a yard in the central areas of Chicago or in Manhattan. 

The massing, design and proportions of that single family new construction look a lot like the historic home at 1419 Race that sold for $736,000. Given that John Hueber is the builder that's not surprising, as he did the renovations on the Race Street one. As far as new construction goes, it's not bad so far, although the finishes and trim and other details will tell a lot. I would be surprised if the entire two lots to the South remain vacant.  The owner of the Race Street house had a small vacant lot adjacent to the South that they have just started landscaping and it looks like it will be a nice, albeit modestly sized, addition to what was previously non-existent green space for their house.

^Just looked on Google Earth.  Good catch!  I hope they start cranking out buildings like that on vacant lots.  Very cool.

I don't recall where, but it was stated this new building is one of two new single family homes they're building. Maybe the other will be on the southern side of the vacant space and they'll have a landscaped area in between? Or the center could be split between the two so they each have a side yard.

The massing, design and proportions of that single family new construction look a lot like the historic home at 1419 Race that sold for $736,000. Given that John Hueber is the builder that's not surprising, as he did the renovations on the Race Street one. As far as new construction goes, it's not bad so far, although the finishes and trim and other details will tell a lot. I would be surprised if the entire two lots to the South remain vacant.  The owner of the Race Street house had a small vacant lot adjacent to the South that they have just started landscaping and it looks like it will be a nice, albeit modestly sized, addition to what was previously non-existent green space for their house.

Although such luxuries as yards and extra green-spaces are now feasible, I believe OTR's renaissance is just underway. (even though its been on-going for about a decade) I think its conceivable once the streetcar is operational and OTR becomes one of the primary tourist destinations (as it was for us a couple of years ago) these sporadic yarded vacant lots will zoom in value. A property owner offered a quarter million or more for half of their yard may find the temptation to sell difficult to resist.  In the photos there's evidence everywhere of fresh paint, building renovation and restoration, landscaping improvements, and of course, the now reborn and wonderful Washington Park. The streetcar only adds to the allure. (wish there could be a more vintage looking streetcar used as in San Francisco's cable cars but then I'm a nostalgic fool) We may yet see OTR return to the density it once had which from an urban friendly point of view is a good thing. Thanks for the excellent photos. I'm hoping once OTR becomes high value the renaissance will spread to what remains of the historic West End. A streetcar extension to take workers into downtown would help there too.  So too would a connection across the river to Covington-Newport for a true metropolitan rail system.

Great photo tour, jmeck!

That said, I still HATE the windows below. What the heck was the architect thinking!?!

 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you hate about those windows?

I don't recall where, but it was stated this new building is one of two new single family homes they're building. Maybe the other will be on the southern side of the vacant space and they'll have a landscaped area in between? Or the center could be split between the two so they each have a side yard.

 

The two lots are not owned by the same owner of the single family home. The lot next to the home is a 3CDC property I believe, the other lot is owned by neither.

That said, I still HATE the windows below. What the heck was the architect thinking!?!

 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you hate about those windows?

 

The muntins are idiotic.  A 2 over 1 double hung window is not standard in anyone's textbook.  It's like the developer or architect thought it would be cool or edgy, but it looks stupid to any trained eye. 

1420 Elm St., the building directly to the south of the new house you're talking about, has a gorgeous stone facade and is one of my favorite buildings in OTR.

sorry im sure this has been discussed further back, but has the type of streetcar been chosen? and would it be able to run in the subway tunnel? thx

sorry im sure this has been discussed further back, but has the type of streetcar been chosen? and would it be able to run in the subway tunnel? thx

 

We're getting CAF Urbos 3 vehicles, the most state of the art vehicles on the planet.

 

 

They're already partially built.  The latest photo update was in March:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/news/update-on-vehicle-manufacturing/

 

Technically they could run in the subway tunnels if we wanted them to, but the platform lengths would probably need to be extended.

Does anyone one know how spurs would work?  For example, a spur going down Ezzard Charles to Union Terminal?  Would there be a different color car that travels the main route but also goes down the spur as well?  Or would a dedicated car go up and down the spur all day?  Would it be difficult to cut into the existing track and what kind of switching equipment would be required?  I could also see a need for a downtown spur going all the way down Race and up Elm (so that the system map looks like a block letter lowercase "h") if they built a new arena near the convention center and built up the Banks (GE office) near Paul Brown Stadium. 

Does anyone one know how spurs would work?  For example, a spur going down Ezzard Charles to Union Terminal?  Would there be a different color car that travels the main route but also goes down the spur as well?  Or would a dedicated car go up and down the spur all day?  Would it be difficult to cut into the existing track and what kind of switching equipment would be required?  I could also see a need for a downtown spur going all the way down Race and up Elm (so that the system map looks like a block letter lowercase "h") if they built a new arena near the convention center and built up the Banks (GE office) near Paul Brown Stadium. 

 

It just depends. The plan for the uptown connector is that streetcars will travel from The Banks to UC, then from UC to The Banks. So you will not have to pay attention to which streetcar you're on, nor get up and transfer to a different streetcar.

There are a number of ways to do it, which would probably be determined by ridership forecasting. It might even work differently depending on time of day or weekday vs. weekend, like PATH trains do (they have overnight/weekend schedules).

 

Check out the blue/yellow line and its operating times: http://www.panynj.gov/path/maps.html

Took eleven people into the woods west of Vine Street to show them the Clifton Forest alignment as an alternative for getting to Uptown.

 

Totallly works.

I Really love the Clifton Forest alignment SO much more than the Vine St alignment. If there can be a stop at Polk St, that would be a deal maker for me. Is would completely activate that staircase to Conklin and give a stop to Little Bethlehem and to Inwood Park. That would be HUGE. It would also make the trip up and down the hill faster than a local bus and about the same as a Metro*Plus bus. Again, HUGE. 

^ Don't think there's a stop @ Polk - more likely a few hundred feet north of there. One of these days after we've perfected it, I'll post a map. However, restoring the Polk to Conklin Steps connection to Clifton Heights and Little Bethlehem in Lower Mt. Auburn would be terrific.

A couple hundred feet to the North is no biggie, as long as there's a walkway to the platform paralleling the track back to the Conklin Steps.  People would definitely walk that.  I'm also assuming that there will be a traffic signal where the tracks meet Vine, which would allow an easy pedestrian connection across the street to Inwood Park.  There's already a nice path in Inwood Park to Little Bethlehem. 

 

It's really odd how much more cost effective, speed enhancing, and ROI increasing this route is over the Vine alignment.  It just makes sense.

^ Guessing there would be gates that close over Vine.

Why gates and not just (painted) stop bars? I have usually just seen stop bars, plus priority signals, for LRT crossings.

What bothers me is that people always end up picking white windows for old buildings.  That is totally inappropriate.  It takes away from showcasing the depth of the windows.  The most appropriate way to paint a historic building like this is to start with a very dark or black color for the windows, then a slightly lighter color for the window trim/building trim, then the body of the building should be a lighter color than both.  Unfortunately, most buildings are painted today with light colored trim and dark colored body.  Its just what everyone is used to seeing, but its not really historically appropriate and it doesn't properly showcase the building's architectural features.

 

That said, I still HATE the windows below. What the heck was the architect thinking!?!

 

 

Out of curiosity, what do you hate about those windows?

 

The muntins are idiotic.  A 2 over 1 double hung window is not standard in anyone's textbook.  It's like the developer or architect thought it would be cool or edgy, but it looks stupid to any trained eye. 

Took eleven people into the woods west of Vine Street to show them the Clifton Forest alignment as an alternative for getting to Uptown.

Did all 11 come out?

^ So far as I know.

Why gates and not just (painted) stop bars? I have usually just seen stop bars, plus priority signals, for LRT crossings.

 

After thinking about this, it might be because it would allow the streetcar to continue at-speed onto Vine, though I'm not sure of the technicalities here.

Why gates and not just (painted) stop bars? I have usually just seen stop bars, plus priority signals, for LRT crossings.

 

After thinking about this, it might be because it would allow the streetcar to continue at-speed onto Vine, though I'm not sure of the technicalities here.

 

Because of the traffic volumes and downhill speeds on Vine south of McMillan, I think they are going to want more than a signal. Probably gates with flashing lights and a flasher a block or so upstream and downstream of the gates, which would be a little south of Hollister in the plan Jules Rosen and I have been developing.

I just walked up the hill and it totally seems doable. I'm really curious about the structures on lower Van Leer Alley. On the downhill side of the street is where I'm assuming the line would go. Most are abandoned, but Van Leer is a really quiet street and I could see some major opposition to the idea if those structures need to come down.

John, is there and chance that would be considered? The current streetcar construction includes the spurs at elder & findlay..

^ The economics are pretty compelling. Lower construction and operating costs and millions of dollars in time savings for users of the streetcar. There will be some minor demolition. Some pretty major re-grading.

 

Took eleven people into the woods west of Vine Street to show them the Clifton Forest alignment as an alternative for getting to Uptown.

...

 

Was one of the 11 Mayor Cranley? 

 

BTW, when that thought entered my mind, I did a spit-take.

^ No, but I hope to take him and other electeds on the route soon.

I had trouble walking it from the South.  Did you go though the yards of the abandoned houses or did you go Norht from halfway up the step?  ...or is it just a lot easier to walk South from Polk?

^ No, but I hope to take him and other electeds on the route soon.

Could you lose him in the woods?

Also I would recommend bringing reporters along too.  They have often complained in the past about being 'left out' by mallory admin

I had trouble walking it from the South.  Did you go though the yards of the abandoned houses or did you go Norht from halfway up the step?  ...or is it just a lot easier to walk South from Polk?

 

I've started these trips from both ends. Entering from OTR seems more comprehensible in terms of the big picture here, eliminating wasteful backtracking. standing at McMicken and Race, you can really see how bad it is.

 

Also better to get the tough part of the trail out of the way up front. The last 1,000 feet of the half-mile path, now marked with white tape, is a piece of cake. Plus water in the convenience store where we rejoin Vine before starting to return to downtown.

sorry im sure this has been discussed further back, but has the type of streetcar been chosen? and would it be able to run in the subway tunnel? thx

 

We're getting CAF Urbos 3 vehicles, the most state of the art vehicles on the planet.

 

 

They're already partially built.  The latest photo update was in March:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/news/update-on-vehicle-manufacturing/

 

Technically they could run in the subway tunnels if we wanted them to, but the platform lengths would probably need to be extended.

 

 

kind of surprized they didnt go with made in america like tucson did:

http://www.tucsonstreetcar.com/index.php?pg=18

 

^The Urbos 3 is actually better than those, because all three sections are "low-floor", meaning that they are all wheelchair and bicycle accessible, as opposed to the Skoda design where only the middle section is low-floor.  They got around the made in america thing by having them assembled in New York (manufactured in Spain).  It's a shame that they have to play games for funding like that, but that's the way such things go.