So it may have been answered but how will streetcar travel be handled with the fifth st festivals? (Taste, octoberfest, etc) will this finally be what's pushes them to the river? I've never understood the charm of hanging out on fifth st breathing in some stale summer air

^ The economics are pretty compelling. Lower construction and operating costs and millions of dollars in time savings for users of the streetcar. There will be some minor demolition. Some pretty major re-grading.

 

 

Beware of hillside slippage. Cincinnati hills are notorious for moving. Don't be surprised if the alignment requires deep foundations, or retaining walls, which will obviously add cost compared to simple grading. It's probably still less expensive than dealing with the utilities in Vine Street, though.

Does anyone know exactly how the 12th and Race intersection of the tracks are going to turn out?  We recently moved very close to that intersection and I'm at a loss to determine how the track is going to be laid out.  Is it simply just a place where the tracks cross at a 90 degree angle, or are there going to be curves to segment out the north/south loops in case one section is blocked?  Are there any issues with it being the one place that has a cross-over point?

^ Yes, 12th and Race to Central Parkway and Walnut will be a turn-back zone where the route can be shortened if need be -- say if there were a major fire somewhere in OTR. Or maybe for festivals in the CBD.

 

The tracks will cross each other at 90 degrees.

 

About the only issue I see, is that there will be a lot of wires, not only wires to power the streetcars going in both directions but also probably some  support wires to carry the power wires.

 

On the other hand, it's the best place to be in the entire basin if you want to live your life around the streetcar.

Thanks John!  We are pretty happy with our new home (short-term/mid-term public safety issues notwithstanding), but the sheer amount of construction work over the last couple of months has been a bit crazy.  We're looking forward to the end of the summer when everything is firmed up at 12th/Race.  All in all we're very much excited about the streetcar coming to fruition soon after so many years of struggle, but the shaking and sounds of what seems like a Sherman Tank at 6am will not be missed :-).

You are sort of at the epicenter of streetcar construction right now.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/05/28/residents-want-transit-on-new-western-hills.html

 

Saw this just a bit ago.  I'm curious, I know people hate the idea of tolls, but considering the amount of people that go across it each day, what if they could toll the bridge in order to pay for it like what they are trying to do with Brent Spence?  Then that could also be used to pay for the extra expense of building in space for streetcars/light rail.  I'm guessing, at a buck per person per day, that would be paid for pretty fast if its possible.

Our fleet of streetcars will be able to go up to 45 mph, but CAF also makes the Urbos TT which is a light rail/streetcar hybrid (TT stands for Tram/Train) that has a higher capacity and a higher top speed, but is compatible with the track we've already laid. We can (should; will) use this system as the spine of future rail systems in the region.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/05/28/residents-want-transit-on-new-western-hills.html

 

Saw this just a bit ago.  I'm curious, I know people hate the idea of tolls, but considering the amount of people that go across it each day, what if they could toll the bridge in order to pay for it like what they are trying to do with Brent Spence?  Then that could also be used to pay for the extra expense of building in space for streetcars/light rail.  I'm guessing, at a buck per person per day, that would be paid for pretty fast if its possible.

They might as well toll the Western Hills Viaduct  as well since now they want a rail component to it.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/05/28/transit-option-for-viaduct/9692565/

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/05/28/residents-want-transit-on-new-western-hills.html

 

Saw this just a bit ago.  I'm curious, I know people hate the idea of tolls, but considering the amount of people that go across it each day, what if they could toll the bridge in order to pay for it like what they are trying to do with Brent Spence?  Then that could also be used to pay for the extra expense of building in space for streetcars/light rail.  I'm guessing, at a buck per person per day, that would be paid for pretty fast if its possible.

They might as well toll the Western Hills Viaduct  as well since now they want a rail component to it.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/05/28/transit-option-for-viaduct/9692565/

 

The Western Hills Viaduct gets far more traffic than many interstate highways.  Has double the traffic of projections for the Portsmouth Bypass: http://portsmouth-dailytimes.com/news/news/2579204/Local-business-owners-skeptical-of-bypass

 

Photo of the construction work at the Court Street substation from this morning:

First look: The streetcar under construction

 

Cincinnati streetcar executives are just back from Spain where they signed off on the final streetcar specs – how fast it will go, at what rate it will stop and how many people it will hold.

 

Up until this trip Cincinnati's Streetcar Project Executive John Deatrick and Assistant City Manager Chris Eilerman had only seen the cars via weekly video conferences.

 

"We had to make sure what they were building meets the performance specs," Deatrick said.

 

"The drawing on the laptop came to life," he added. "It was cool – there is no other way to put it."

 

Cont

awesome!

I haven't seen an official map for uptown yet, so here's what I came up with just fooling around.  I apologize in advance for duplicating subject matter-  I am sure this was covered ad nauseum in the previous 689 pages of this thread.

 

Thick lines mean the streetcar goes both ways on a street and thin lines means the streetcar only travels in one direction on a street. 

 

The black line starts at the base of the hill in OTR and is the basic uptown extension.  It uses John Schneider's forest route, the details of which he is developing.  It travels up Jefferson past UC,  then splits into a loop into the heart of the hospital campus.  From what I can tell on Google street view, it avoids Emergency Room entrances.  Would multiple left turns be an issue here?   

 

The blue line would be a future line serving Walnut Hills, University Heights, and Clifton Gaslight neighborhoods.  It would connect to the uptown extension at a transfer station at University Plaza.  The west branch would have a turnaround by clipping off the corner of Burnett Woods by the Fountain.  The east branch would turn  around using Woodburn Avenue, Madison Rd. and Victory Parkway. 

 

I think the map looks like a flexing eagle.  Thoughts?

 

 

The way you have the blue line drawn is exactly how an east-west Uptown route should happen. Not only would it capture basically all of UC and its surroundings but also connect the basin to Ludlow area which would be great since that's not really a possible trip without a car right now. And then it connects all that with both business districts through Walnut Hills and the Woodburn Avenue corridor, all of which are up and coming and have ridiculous amounts of potential for refurbishment and LOTS of new construction. Speeding up that process would do wonders for this area.

Is the narrow black line that goes through both UC campuses a one-way route? If so, you need to rethink this.

My thinking was the tracks would be in both directions down Jefferson past UC main campus to MLK.  Then, the northbound track would take a right onto MLK and a left into the hospital campus on Eden.  It would proceed down Albert Sabin Way, take a left onto Burnett, left onto Erkenbrecher, and left on Vine until it crosses MLK again and becomes the southbound track on Jefferson. 

 

I was coming at it from the perspective of a doctor or nurse commuting from the basin, thinking they would want to get to the hospitals ASAP on their way to work, and by contrast a tourist going to the zoo would have more time to spend riding the streetcar.  I think you might be trying to say that the hospitals would need direct access to southbound track as well, instead of forcing a brain surgeon to take a meandering ride past the zoo on his/her way home-  their time is pretty valuable, after all. 

 

All my reasoning here is pretty unscientific.  When you start thinking about work commutes and trying to connect the “employment centers of uptown,” as has been the steady drumbeat on the past seven years, there’s probably some design specs for how the route should be laid out.  For example, Location X has Y daily potential riders.  It shall take X minutes to get from Location X to the top of the OTR loop, and Y minutes to get from Location X to the Banks.  That’s the kind of thing I had no clue about when drawing this map.  (Another thing I had no clue about is where the stops should be located relative to employee entrances to avoid any “last mile” issues.)  With UC and the hospitals being such major stakeholders, perhaps even financially, they would probably want some influence over this design process as well.

 

Perhaps we’ll know more after the town hall meeting on Tuesday...  :-)

 

My comment was more general: if it's a one-way loop, even if every destination you want to get to is somewhere on that loop, then unless it is a very elongated loop, then you will have to go out-of-direction, sometimes a long way out-of-direction, to make the return trip.

 

If the loop is elongated like we're building it in the CBD and OTR, the you can walk a short distance to close the loop. You can travel both directions easily.

 

I guess my conclusion is, the Uptown Streetcar wants to be linear. I think it goes to the Zoo and turns east on Erkenbrecker to Burnet and then turns right onto Burnet, ending in the middle of the medical campus and reversing direction for the return trip to The Banks.

 

I see two Uptown streetcar lines - something like that and a second line from Hughes Corner to DeSales Corner, something that would really boost development east of U.C. and add value to underparked Clifton Heights. A really good interchange @ Corryville somewhere. This east/west line really has a lot of potential.

Agreed -- northbound and southbound need to be no more than one block apart. If possible, they should be on the same street. (This was not possible downtown due to one-way streets.) Otherwise, it starts to get into Detroit People Mover territory.

I would also argue that Taft and McMillan are too far apart at Burnet. There's still a city plan to make both streets two way all the way to Clifton...but who know when that'll happen. My only thought is that East of Vine, the streetcar should run either only in Taft or only on McMillan. I also think we should seriously look at running the streetcar down Short Vine again if the Kroger deal is really a reality. At the very least, a pad for a future streetcar stop should be included in University Plaza redesign.

I think McMillan becomes a slower-moving two-way streetcar/auto street and Taft becomes a two-way, fast-moving street.

^^^Thumbs Way Up^^^  I know Walnut Hills would support this. They really want traffic calmed on McMillan.

The 2500 block of Auburn is angled ideally to permit a streetcar line to transition to 2-way traffic on McMillan.  And I do think that it should be 2-way on commercial corridors and not split with one direction on a commercial street and another on a primarily residential street.  The major decision for the routing would be a future phase toward Norwood -- does the line continue northward on Woodburn through Evanston directly toward Xavier University or does it follow Montgomery to the Norwood commercial strip?

 

Also the Mt. Auburn Tunnel from the 1990s planned for a portal on Jefferson at Corrry St., then travel at-grade to MLK, either in a median or on the grass west of the street (Turner Hall and the sports bubble weren't there in the 90s).  If the streetcar is divided between Jefferson and Vine St., then construction of a future light rail tunnel would be complicated by the existence of tracks on both streets. 

 

Agreed -- northbound and southbound need to be no more than one block apart. If possible, they should be on the same street. (This was not possible downtown due to one-way streets.)

 

Actually, I'd argue that 1-2 blocks apart is superior to on the same street.  With a block apart, you get 2 streets with curbside streetcar service along with its related foot traffic instead of just 1, and you increase the zone of walkability, streetcar-related-development, etc. by a block along the length of the route. 

Enough of this meaningless drivel. What's the plan of attack for the UO party that will help commemorate this great project??

I revised my map based off some of the comments I received.

 

I now see the light regarding loops.  The loop up by the hospital I had in the previous map would have been two miles and seven minutes with no traffic.  This configuration is 1.3 miles and also avoids traveling on MLK altogether.  I also incorporated the two-way McMillan rerouting suggestions for the east-west line, and left the turnaround as TBD in Walnut Hills.  I added a star for another streetcar transfer stop on Vine, roughly where the nice new bustop for Metro is now.   

 

In regards to Jefferson vs. Short Vine, in my opinion Jefferson is the way to go.  If Short Vine was chosen, I don’t think one stop in the southeast corner of campus would be enough to say you “covered” UC.  That corner of campus always felt very remote when I was a student there.  Giving UC as much coverage as possible is key to bringing them on as a large stakeholder in the project invested in its success.  There are several residence halls along Jefferson and a straight pathway to the ERC and to the UC “MainStreet” area including Tangeman University Center that would all benefit from proximity to the streetcar.  I also think that Jefferson is close enough to the new developments on Short Vine to cater to those as well.

 

I left the Clifton Ave. branch of the East-West line on this map.  I think you gain a lot from it.  McMicken Hall and DAAP at UC, Stratford Heights/west campus area, Deaconess and Good Sam hospitals, Hebrew Union College, and the Clifton Gaslight District.  The last is key- this is a dense, established neighborhood full of likely political supporters of the streetcar project.  One of the things I like about the downtown/OTR route is its mix of thriving areas and opportunities for new development, and this would add a thriving area to the uptown east-west line.  Plus, I would personally love to take the streetcar from my home in OTR to get some Indian food and watch a movie at the Esquire!  I changed the turnaround at Ludlow Ave. to TBD- after exploring that corner of Burnett Woods on my bike, there is a really steep topographic drop off going into the woods, and it looks to my untrained eye that a turnaround there would require lots of regrading.

 

I think that the map alone really establishes UC and the hospitals being major stakeholders.  If all lines on this map were built, UC would be serviced on three sides.  Having them as enthusiastic supporters is key.  However, with both health care and education costs rising astronomically, it may be difficult politically for them to spend big money directly on streetcar construction.  Perhaps they could support things on the operating end by providing unlimited ride passes to students and employees. 

 

This new map looks like a soaring eagle.  If the downtown loop were included, it would look like an eagle that had just caught dinner... 

 

This is a map I can support.  Two notes:

1)Streetcars are bi-directional.  You don't need a turnaround. 

2) Building it to the zoo is sufficient.  Children's hospital has plenty of money...if they want an extension, they can pay for it.

Children's hospital has plenty of money...if they want an extension, they can pay for it.

 

Nice way to treat a world class facility.  Why would you suggest they pay for the streetcar and not the other facilities?

Enough of this meaningless drivel. What's the plan of attack for the UO party that will help commemorate this great project??

If punch and pie will be served, I am THERE.

I revised my map based off some of the comments I received.

 

I now see the light regarding loops.  The loop up by the hospital I had in the previous map would have been two miles and seven minutes with no traffic.  This configuration is 1.3 miles and also avoids traveling on MLK altogether.  I also incorporated the two-way McMillan rerouting suggestions for the east-west line, and left the turnaround as TBD in Walnut Hills.  I added a star for another streetcar transfer stop on Vine, roughly where the nice new bustop for Metro is now.   

 

In regards to Jefferson vs. Short Vine, in my opinion Jefferson is the way to go.  If Short Vine was chosen, I don’t think one stop in the southeast corner of campus would be enough to say you “covered” UC.  That corner of campus always felt very remote when I was a student there.  Giving UC as much coverage as possible is key to bringing them on as a large stakeholder in the project invested in its success.  There are several residence halls along Jefferson and a straight pathway to the ERC and to the UC “MainStreet” area including Tangeman University Center that would all benefit from proximity to the streetcar.  I also think that Jefferson is close enough to the new developments on Short Vine to cater to those as well.

 

I left the Clifton Ave. branch of the East-West line on this map.  I think you gain a lot from it.  McMicken Hall and DAAP at UC, Stratford Heights/west campus area, Deaconess and Good Sam hospitals, Hebrew Union College, and the Clifton Gaslight District.  The last is key- this is a dense, established neighborhood full of likely political supporters of the streetcar project.  One of the things I like about the downtown/OTR route is its mix of thriving areas and opportunities for new development, and this would add a thriving area to the uptown east-west line.  Plus, I would personally love to take the streetcar from my home in OTR to get some Indian food and watch a movie at the Esquire!  I changed the turnaround at Ludlow Ave. to TBD- after exploring that corner of Burnett Woods on my bike, there is a really steep topographic drop off going into the woods, and it looks to my untrained eye that a turnaround there would require lots of regrading.

 

I think that the map alone really establishes UC and the hospitals being major stakeholders.  If all lines on this map were built, UC would be serviced on three sides.  Having them as enthusiastic supporters is key.  However, with both health care and education costs rising astronomically, it may be difficult politically for them to spend big money directly on streetcar construction.  Perhaps they could support things on the operating end by providing unlimited ride passes to students and employees. 

 

This new map looks like a soaring eagle.  If the downtown loop were included, it would look like an eagle that had just caught dinner... 

 

 

Most logical map I've seen so far.

Big meeting tonight to discuss streetcar extension.  Should be a big crowd

I highly doubt that UC or any of the hospitals uptown would do anything to support the streetcar other than maybe issue a statement (and even that is a big maybe).  Hospitals have way too many other things on their minds to be getting involved with political issues/projects.  We all hoped that some of the big corporations downtown would be enthusiastically involved in the downtown/OTR loop and we now know that they all stayed perfectly silent during the whole process (except for the Haile Foundation recently).  I would expect exactly the same from Uptown if a streetcar project ever gets off the ground up there. 

The only reason I brought it up is because of the track length in that map. That's several million dollars extra to loop around t the front door of Children's. If they want direct access that badly, then should pay the premium. If they don't really care, then we should just stick to main thoroughfares to provide cost effective and non-circuitous routes.

UC maybe - they are more  of a political type entity.

Childrens might be interested if they could get a parking lot out of the deal.

I highly doubt that UC or any of the hospitals uptown would do anything to support the streetcar other than maybe issue a statement (and even that is a big maybe).  Hospitals have way too many other things on their minds to be getting involved with political issues/projects.  We all hoped that some of the big corporations downtown would be enthusiastically involved in the downtown/OTR loop and we now know that they all stayed perfectly silent during the whole process (except for the Haile Foundation recently).  I would expect exactly the same from Uptown if a streetcar project ever gets off the ground up there.

 

If this was 1 year ago, i'd agree.. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

1 year ago, would you ever have thought:

 

Pete Witte

Westside leaders

Dennis Janson

Prominent GOPers like Triantifilou/Murray/Barrett(For GOP convention)

 

and others would publicly support the streetcar?

 

In my opinion, the hospitals are important but The key for the uptown extension is UC.  Ono is close to Cranley.  During the debate in 2009(maybe it was 2011 now that I think about it, Ono tweeted for Cincinnati to 'have courage'(in building the streetcar). That tweet was quickly deleted due to the political scene & the fact he didn't want to piss off the donors. 

 

There is more support privately at the moment...The problem has been getting them to publicly support it.  But as more and more do, this shouldn't be a huge issue. 

 

Also listen to the narration shift of the local media.  The new enquirer editorial team has seen the benefits of transit/rail from other cities.    The other local media is still lagging but stories are becoming more and more positive.  As the streetcar gets closer to opening, more minds will start to change(Just like fountain square, just like washington park)

 

Obviously the biggest issues are the 1) political scene(Cranley/Murray/Winburn/Smitherman/Kasich/State legislation/even chabot to some extent), 2) AM Radio, & 3) the financials. 

 

 

Just an idea.  Run tracks on East side of Vine through park property that has tennis and basketball courts, and then build underpass under McMillan and Taft to University Plaza site.  Avoid steep and congested intersection of Vine/McMillan/Taft. 

Big meeting tonight to discuss streetcar extension.  Should be a big crowd

When and where? Outside of this forum I don't ever hear much about important streetcar meeting/functions/milestones. Even cincinnatians for progress, cincystreetcar blog, etc don't do a great job of notifying the masses when they need to gather and support.

When and where? Outside of this forum I don't ever hear much about important streetcar meeting/functions/milestones. Even cincinnatians for progress, cincystreetcar blog, etc don't do a great job of notifying the masses when they need to gather and support.

 

The special guest speaker is none other than Kevin Flynn of all people.  I left the event out of a newsletter I author just for that reason.  I'm not sure what exactly they are going to discuss exactly, but if you want to sign up for Believe in Cincinnati updates you might want to try their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/BelieveInCincinnati .

 

tonight @ 6:30 Clifton Cultural Arts Center

 

http://www.local12.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/streetcar-supporters-begin-plans-uptown-connection-12287.shtml

I think the McMillan/Taft underpass idea is interesting if a large or complex station is needed at University Plaza.  On my map, I was just envisioning a north/south streetcar stop located nearby to an east/west one.

 

Jake mentioned bringing the east/west line in Walnut Hills all the way up Woodburn to Xavier University.  If this happed, could it connect to Wasson Way light rail?  I thought I heard the problem with getting the Wasson Way line going was the lack of right of way going into downtown from Xavier.  Could the streetcar perform this function or would this be too slow of a commute?  Could Wasson Way connect to the streetcar on one end and the Oasis Line on the other near Fairfax?  (I realize the Oasis Line is not everyone on here’s favorite idea, just posing the question as a thought exercise.)

 

Was bored and made this graphic that shows the current track-work progress. Sometimes its hard to follow where exactly the track is when you see it typed out or hear it described so I wanted to make a visual map to show how much has been done. I know that downtown is going to be slower because of utilities, and that none of the overhead wiring has been installed, but it still seems like they are moving very quickly and could finish ahead of schedule at this rate. (If I am missing something let me know)

That's a really awesome graphic.  I can't wait to see it updated in the future.  Just a note though, I don't think track goes that far North on Race St yet.  It stops somewhere between Green and Elder, right around Glass Alley.

You're right, I accidentally took it all the way up to Findlay instead of Glass. I will update it later, probably when they add the turn onto Walnut this weekend and I get to add more orange.

Very cool! Also I think when you add the walnut then you'll be able to add the elm & 12th turn. I think they'll be pouring that any day now.

Was bored and made this graphic that shows the current track-work progress. Sometimes its hard to follow where exactly the track is when you see it typed out or hear it described so I wanted to make a visual map to show how much has been done. I know that downtown is going to be slower because of utilities, and that none of the overhead wiring has been installed, but it still seems like they are moving very quickly and could finish ahead of schedule at this rate. (If I am missing something let me know)

 

well done; excellent job including the stop status

I was just wondering in my head, how will they lay the tracks on the cross over?  Is there just no track at all on each of the 4 individual rail crosses, i.e. a space that is the width of the rail both horizontally and perpendicularly?  It is hard to explain without drawing.

Alright, one more idea, for now.  Pretty crazy but here goes. Wasson Way light rail to Xavier.  Then, streetcar down Woodburn (or combo Woodburn/Montgomery) to Woodburn and McMillan.  (connecting to the streetcar line on McMillan like in my uptown map.)  Then, find a way to tunnel or bridge your way down across Columbia Parkway to the river and use the beginning of the Oasis line light rail to get to the Riverfront Transit Center.  (A bridge would be spectacular view.)  I can't really see any locations for a bridge/tunnel that jump out at me in that area, but that theoretical point on the streetcar line is just so close the river on the map. 

I was just wondering in my head, how will they lay the tracks on the cross over?  Is there just no track at all on each of the 4 individual rail crosses, i.e. a space that is the width of the rail both horizontally and perpendicularly?  It is hard to explain without drawing.

 

It will be more complex than just a crossing. Trams heading south on Elm will be able to turn right onto 12th, and trams heading west on 12th will be able to turn left onto Elm. So if there is some emergency on one half of the route, trams can turn back and serve half of the route.

I was just wondering in my head, how will they lay the tracks on the cross over?  Is there just no track at all on each of the 4 individual rail crosses, i.e. a space that is the width of the rail both horizontally and perpendicularly?  It is hard to explain without drawing.

 

A crossing rail starts off as a solid block of steel, and by subtractive manufacturing, they carve away pieces of it to make a solid +

 

When you see one of these pieces lay in the street, think $50,000 or so.

Very interesting town hall meeting at the Clifton Cultural Arts Center tonight. There were a lot of attendees, so fortunately there are still a lot of people involved in the pro-streetcar movement.

 

Probably the most interesting speaker was Pete Witte. As you all likely know, he is pushing for the Western Hills Viaduct to be able to support rail transit in the future. However, I learned that he is also actively pushing for one or two streetcar circulator routes in the west side. This idea reinforces the fact streetcars are for primarily for getting people around within urban neighborhoods, not necessarily for getting people between different neighborhoods. Although it probably wouldn't happen this way, we could build a separate streetcar loop in these west side neighborhoods and it would be successful, even if it didn't connect to the downtown/OTR loop. As a real world example, look at Seattle's streetcar system. Phase 1 was built in a neighborhood north of downtown. Phase 2 is being built in a neighborhood  east of downtown and does not connect to Phase 1. An eventual Phase 3 will connect them via Downtown.

 

I was glad that Kevin Flynn attended and is taking the pro-streetcar movement seriously. However I was disappointed by his comments that the streetcar project must pay for itself (through fare box revenue and a SID in OTR) in order to be considered "successful". First of all, the project is already using TIF funding, meaning that property tax generated from additional development in the neighborhood is being used to pay for the streetcar. Secondly, downtown and OTR generate over 50% of the city's income tax revenue; I don't understand why it is unreasonable to use general fund to pay for streetcar operations in these neighborhoods. Thirdly, no other transportation project is held to this standard; how will the Western Hills Viaduct "pay for itself"?