^ Again, I was just using his quote as a guide. I assumed he meant each end and the middle of the route.  From his quote I didn't know about the Liberty and Elm stop.  I'm sorry, Its been a long time since I was in Cincinnati.

 

You do however, raise another question.  If the entire route should take 15 minutes, will it really take 10 minutes to get one block from Elm to Race?

Not really, but there's a layover at the North end of the route which is a variable. 10 minutes was just a guess.

^ Again, I was just using his quote as a guide. I assumed he meant each end and the middle of the route.  From his quote I didn't know about the Liberty and Elm stop.  I'm sorry, Its been a long time since I was in Cincinnati.

 

You do however, raise another question.  If the entire route should take 15 minutes, will it really take 10 minutes to get one block from Elm to Race?

 

I suggest you look at a map of the route.  Elm and Race are a block apart, but the streetcar will continue north on Elm for roughly 6 more blocks before turning and coming south on Race. 

This past weekend a group of us ate and drank our way through OTR and then stayed the night downtown. We walked from Fountain Square to Rhinegeist, and let me tell you, in 90 degree weather it was miserable. We had done this "eat our way through OTR" tour twice before earlier in the summer and it was an absolute joy.

 

But Cincinnati in the summer and winter is usually NOT an absolute joy. God as my witness, it was so muggy we would have ridden a donkey from Findlay Market to Gateway Quarter. A streetcar would have been a godsend. We wouldn't even have cared how long it took. It's about the amenity, and the experience, and making the whole urban core feel more like, I don't know, luxurious.

Mahoganys closing has really emboldened the anti streetcar crowd. Get ready. Smitherman and coast are really puffing out their chests and comparing it to the streetcar. Their gameplan is to negatively slam it every chance they get on am radio and every media outlet so that people visiting feel uncomfortable even being near it. They want to give the streetcar a negative stigma, like they did with mahoganys, so people instinctively don't ride it.

 

Get ready. It's going to turn up a notch now and especially towards the completion. 

^Who cares? You seem almost obsessed with tracking whatever reaction these clowns have to any negative streetcar or generally downtown news.  Of course Smitherman and the Coasters are going to make some stupid comments about the streetcar.  They will use any and every opportunity they have to do so because they have basically been brought into existence/relevance because of the issue.  The streetcar is happening; time to put our head down and progress without worrying what Smitherman and some 'anti tax group' have to say about every issue.

^Who cares? You seem almost obsessed with tracking whatever reaction these clowns have to any negative streetcar or generally downtown news.  Of course Smitherman and the Coasters are going to make some stupid comments about the streetcar.  They will use any and every opportunity they have to do so because they have basically been brought into existence/relevance because of the issue.  The streetcar is happening; time to put our head down and progress without worrying what Smitherman and some 'anti tax group' have to say about every issue.

 

I care because:

 

1) they nearly stopped the project...completely...three times...And delayed it numerous years increasing costs because people did not take them seriously.  They may seem helpless right now but are not finished  .

2) they took control of the pr early on and we still have negative falsehoods continuing to this day that people believe. They have intentionally and successfully given an avalanche of misinformation to muddy up the issue and we completely underestimated the power of this misinformation. So when chris smitherman says a blatant falsehood like "they are going to use sorta money and cut bus routes to pay for streetcar operations", it's better to end that myth before it takes hold.

3) the success of phase 1 is directly related to phase 2 right now. We don't have the votes for phase 2. We know it, they know it. We have 5 votes for planning phase 2. Cranley will veto. If they continue to avalanche traditional media with negative falsehoods without us responding and attach that negative stigma to the streetcar,  phase 1 will not be as successful as it could be.

4) for whatever reason,  the streetcar has become much more than a streetcar in cincy. It's a battle of old cincinnati vs new cincinnati. It's a political fight between those who want the status quo and those who want a more progressive city. There has been 4 straight elections now that the streetcar has been a central issue. Think about that. It's a symbolic political fight

Yeah people keep underestimating Smitherman and COAST.  While self-congratulatory millennials are busy taking selfies, these guys spend 100 hours per week scheming.  Finney actually pulled off Article XII and it took 10 years and a push by the city's corporate community to get it overturned.  Later in the decade it took all sorts of work by all sorts of people to stop Finney's various attempts to stop the streetcar project.  This is just one dude and 2 or 3 goons. 

 

Regarding travel time, I'm going to assume you meant liberty & Elm.  If you wanted to get to liberty & race from 2nd street, you would most likely get off at liberty & elm and walk one block to liberty & race. 

 

 

Thanks for your estimate.  I didn't know the car capacity.

 

I had taken the Liberty and Race comment from your earlier post.

 

"One Streetcar is arriving at 2nd Street stop, one is departing the 12th & Vine stop, and one is boarding at the Liberty & Race stop."

 

200 people - sure about that?

^Who cares? You seem almost obsessed with tracking whatever reaction these clowns have to any negative streetcar or generally downtown news.  Of course Smitherman and the Coasters are going to make some stupid comments about the streetcar.  They will use any and every opportunity they have to do so because they have basically been brought into existence/relevance because of the issue.  The streetcar is happening; time to put our head down and progress without worrying what Smitherman and some 'anti tax group' have to say about every issue.

 

Other than talk radio, I think media has pretty much tuned the opponents out at this point.

 

Regarding travel time, I'm going to assume you meant liberty & Elm.  If you wanted to get to liberty & race from 2nd street, you would most likely get off at liberty & elm and walk one block to liberty & race. 

 

 

Thanks for your estimate.  I didn't know the car capacity.

 

I had taken the Liberty and Race comment from your earlier post.

 

"One Streetcar is arriving at 2nd Street stop, one is departing the 12th & Vine stop, and one is boarding at the Liberty & Race stop."

 

200 people - sure about that?

 

Cincy is getting CAF Urbos 3 streetcars right? From http://www.railway-technology.com/news/newscaf-start-building-new-urbos-3-trams-october:

 

"Each of the Urbos 3 air-conditioned trams will have five sections that together can accommodate around 200 passengers, compared to a 156-passenger capacity on the current trams."

 

Edit: From http://www.modernstreetcar.org/vehicles%20CAF%20Urbos.htm

 

a.2 Passenger capacity (seated + standing @ 4 pass/m2) for min. length (3 modules)  ---  24 seated +124 standing = 148

Passenger capacity (seated + standing @ 4 pass/m2) for max. length (7 modules) --- 68 seated + 249 standing = 317

 

Which is it? Somewhere in between?  :wtf:

Ours only have three sections.

^ correct. I looked up the same info. We have a shorter version of the Urbos 3. It's only about 150 max people. My bad!

 

That would man in 1 hour with 3 streetcars you could move would be 900

It is quite odd seeing a catenary pole outside our window now, but I'm glad they finally got them in.  I was a bit concerned when I saw how close they were to the trees on our street.  Does anyone know if they're planning on just doing tree pruning, or if they'll need to cut down the trees.  I'd hate to see the old, three story trees cut down.

^ correct. I looked up the same info. We have a shorter version of the Urbos 3. It's only about 150 max people. My bad!

 

That would man in 1 hour with 3 streetcars you could move would be 900

 

According to Paul Grether the maintenance facility that we are building will have the capacity to service approximately 30 streetcars on a scheduled rotation.  The yard under construction will have a capacity for about 12 streetcars and then a second future yard could be a place where more streetcars are parked overnight but they could still use the OTR maintenance building when needed. 

 

Look at this, more national level news about Cincinnati...

 

http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df3/df08252014.shtml#Streetcars

Elm at Liberty:

Dusty Rhodes is going nuts on Twitter about the downtown streetcar construction.

 

• Downtown Closed for Business.  Our long streetcar construction nightmare gets even worse. Ride bikes, walk or take the bus says @jdeatrick
  
• I want to see the CEOs of P&G, 5th3rd, Dunnhumby et all riding bikes or taking the bus to work. As John Wayne said, "That'll be the day".
  
• Streetcar supposed to be great for downtown commerce.  Tearing up streets to lay rail now, not so much. http://t.co/mklTay3kNT
  

 

What a whiner. I-75 construction is going to last over a decade, and Dusty's all upset about a few lane closures downtown while the streetcar is built.

 

Actually, I agree with that middle tweet. I would love to see the CEOs of those companies taking public transportation. Maybe they'd take light rail if we had it.

It's ridiculous to hear these types of things. I doubt he'd be so loud if the street was closed only for sewer work or repaving.

 

On the other hand, you hear this same stuff with every big project, and luckily most of the complainers have a short attention span. I still remember all of the hooplah surrounding the HealthLine construction in Cleveland and how everyone complained that the construction was gridlocking downtown and killing business. None of those people pointed out that Euclid Avenue was nearly a ghost town pre-HealthLine anyway.

It is quite odd seeing a catenary pole outside our window now, but I'm glad they finally got them in.  I was a bit concerned when I saw how close they were to the trees on our street.  Does anyone know if they're planning on just doing tree pruning, or if they'll need to cut down the trees.  I'd hate to see the old, three story trees cut down.

 

Anybody got a picture of a typical pole they wanna post?  I'd like to see what kind of design they chose.

It's a plain black pole. You can see one in the photo above. At first I was annoyed that they're so boring and plain, but now that I've see them going up all over, they really blend in. There aren't any catenaries up in Downtown yet though. I'm curious to see how they'll look next to the skyscrapers.

It's ridiculous to hear these types of things. I doubt he'd be so loud if the street was closed only for sewer work or repaving.

 

On the other hand, you hear this same stuff with every big project, and luckily most of the complainers have a short attention span. I still remember all of the hooplah surrounding the HealthLine construction in Cleveland and how everyone complained that the construction was gridlocking downtown and killing business. None of those people pointed out that Euclid Avenue was nearly a ghost town pre-HealthLine anyway.

 

I'm hearing the HealthLine's fleet is already starting to crash.  Unexpected number of vehicles out-of-service and requiring heavy maintenance.

It's ridiculous to hear these types of things. I doubt he'd be so loud if the street was closed only for sewer work or repaving.

 

On the other hand, you hear this same stuff with every big project, and luckily most of the complainers have a short attention span. I still remember all of the hooplah surrounding the HealthLine construction in Cleveland and how everyone complained that the construction was gridlocking downtown and killing business. None of those people pointed out that Euclid Avenue was nearly a ghost town pre-HealthLine anyway.

 

I'm hearing the HealthLine's fleet is already starting to crash.  Unexpected number of vehicles out-of-service and requiring heavy maintenance.

 

The Plain Dealer, the Cleveland Athletic Club and other ghosts of Cleveland's past, tried to dump all over the HealthLine during construction. The PD was in the midst of its hater phase. While the CAC closed down (and is still mired in litigation), the Union Club across Euclid never had any problems and remains active today. Ironically, the PD also isn't doing so well either (no longer a daily paper) while dailies remain in Elyria, Lorain, Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Warren and Lake County. Other businesses that bailed on Cleveland or hated on its progress are either gone, greatly diminished or now on the outside looking in at the phenomenal investment occurring now. That's called a comeuppance...

 

And yes, the HealthLine buses are taking a beating from overuse and overcrowding. While it is time for their midlife overhauls, we've seen many of them taken out of service following mechanical breakdowns. GCRTA claims there haven't been many breakdowns and the towed buses were the result of collisions.

 

Reality is... If Euclid Corridor planning was being done today, a streetcar would have been a strong alternative. But 15-20 years ago, streetcars weren't a consideration at all in transit alternatives analyses. It certainly wasn't an alternative considered for Euclid Corridor.

Does the BRT on the HealthLine allow for possible conversion to streetcar?  Or is that just too expensive to contemplate at this point?

Anything is possible, but last I checked RTA was talking about converting their rapid lines to BRT because it costs too much to rebuild the rails.

What is the ridership of the HealthLine, compared to the rapid lines they're talking about converting to bus? From what I hear, the HealthLine is way overcrowded, despite very high frequency. A logical solution to that situation would be upgrading to LRT. Not investing where there is demand because there is a lack of demand elsewhere makes no sense. That would be like choosing not to upgrade the Northeast Corridor because the Wolverine doesn't sell enough tickets.

The Plain Dealer, the Cleveland Athletic Club and other ghosts of Cleveland's past, tried to dump all over the HealthLine during construction. The PD was in the midst of its hater phase. While the CAC closed down (and is still mired in litigation), the Union Club across Euclid never had any problems and remains active today. Ironically, the PD also isn't doing so well either (no longer a daily paper) while dailies remain in Elyria, Lorain, Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Warren and Lake County. Other businesses that bailed on Cleveland or hated on its progress are either gone, greatly diminished or now on the outside looking in at the phenomenal investment occurring now. That's called a comeuppance...

 

The story I've always heard for CAC was that the utility lines were accidently cut to the building as part of the project, and these were not restored for months. If this is actually the case, one can see why a struggling club might go under if they are closed to members for several months.

What is the ridership of the HealthLine, compared to the rapid lines they're talking about converting to bus? From what I hear, the HealthLine is way overcrowded, despite very high frequency. A logical solution to that situation would be upgrading to LRT. Not investing where there is demand because there is a lack of demand elsewhere makes no sense. That would be like choosing not to upgrade the Northeast Corridor because the Wolverine doesn't sell enough tickets.

 

I believe those HealthLine buses are articulated hybrids...and I too thought that was kind of a strange choice for what would certainly become a high capacity corridor.  I believe back around 2003...maybe it was...GCRTA was thinking in terms of trolleybuses.  Anyway, I always wondered why they didn't just run the Waterfront line from South Harbor back into downtown by going south on E. 18th as streetcar to Euclid and then turning at Euclid and running the line out Euclid to Windermere as streetcar/light rail.  Anyway, that would render the east side of the red line pretty much redundant so they could cancel that end of the red line and recoup some operating costs that way...I think 79th would be the only stop losing service. I gotta believe they looked at this and maybe came up with some cost or engineering barriers?  Anyway, I suppose with the new Cedar University station closing the east segment of the red line is probably off the table.

Anything is possible, but last I checked RTA was talking about converting their rapid lines to BRT because it costs too much to rebuild the rails.

 

Never mind how much longer both the tracks and rolling stock lasts compared to a road and buses.  Yeah when the time does come it's not cheap to rehab rails or train cars, but in the long run it's still a winner. 

It's ridiculous to hear these types of things. I doubt he'd be so loud if the street was closed only for sewer work or repaving.

 

On the other hand, you hear this same stuff with every big project, and luckily most of the complainers have a short attention span. I still remember all of the hooplah surrounding the HealthLine construction in Cleveland and how everyone complained that the construction was gridlocking downtown and killing business. None of those people pointed out that Euclid Avenue was nearly a ghost town pre-HealthLine anyway.

 

Sometimes when Dusty complains about our "downtown streets being destroyed" by streetcar construction, I point out that all of the streets will be repaved when the project is complete. (That's 12 lane-miles as someone pointed out earlier in this thread.) Additionally, with all of the new sewer, gas, water, electric, telephone, cable, and filter optic cable that's going in because of the streetcar, we're going to be in good shape for the next few decades.

 

What's funny is that there have been several interstate highway closures over the past few months because of the work on I-75 and the new I-71 interchange at MLK. Closing down an interstate highway is a much bigger deal than restricting traffic to one lane downtown (where people can go around the block and avoid it anyway). Yet no one is complaining about the highway work.

I want to confirm what happens at the top of the downtown loop for the uptown extension as currently planned, because I don't think I really understand it. Paul Grether said on a tour last weekend that with the uptown extension the Findlay Market stop on Race would have twice the number of streetcars going past it as a normal stop.  So my current thinking is:

 

1.  The streetcar stops at Rhinegeist-everyone gets off

2. The streetcar may or may not pull over at the MOF to switch drivers or maintain schedule as needed

3. The streetcar picks up people going uptown at the Findlay Market Race St stop.

4. The streetcar takes a left on Elder St and goes Uptown

5. The streetcar comes back to Race via Findlay St and stops at the Findlay Market Race St stop again

6. The streetcar completes the Downtown loop. 

 

So does this mean if I want to travel from the Banks to Uptown, I would get off at the Findlay Market Elm St stop, walk across the market, and wait for an Uptown bound streetcar at the Findlay Market Race St stop? Or can I just stay on the streetcar?  If I stay on the streetcar am I waiting at the MOF very long?

 

EDIT: I suppose you could schedule to minimize layover time at the MOF and begin a new loop immediately, but it just kind of blows my mind how you could continuously run these things in a loop all day without having some buffer time built in at some point in the loop so they don't get off schedule.

^ Once the uptown connector is running, you will not have to get off the streetcar at Rhinegeist. You can stay on the streetcar and have a 1-seat ride to uptown.

 

For the time being, they may technically "kick people off" at the Rhinegeist stop since it's the end of the line. But I don't think the drivers would really care if you wanted to stay on it and ride it around and around in a loop all day, as long as you paid the fare. (I suspect some of us on that forum may do exactly that.)

Dusty Rhodes is going nuts on Twitter about the downtown streetcar construction.
 
Streetcar supposed to be great for downtown commerce.  Tearing up streets to lay rail now, not so much.
 
What a whiner. I-75 construction is going to last over a decade, and Dusty's all upset about a few lane closures downtown while the streetcar is built.

 
The picture Dusty attached to the bolded tweet above is a picture of a parking lot across the street from a parking lot.
 
 

Same characters fuming about operating costs of streetcar today. Rinse, repeat.  Yet another enquirer article. Cranley, murray, and/or  smitherman to make the am radio tour

Same characters fuming about operating costs of streetcar today. Rinse, repeat.  Yet another enquirer article. Cranley, murray, and/or  smitherman to make the am radio tour

 

When will Winburn re-introduce the Winburn Plan?  It's been at least a year.  Plenty of time for the media to forget that he's introduced it twice.  What about Hop-on Cincinnati?

 

It's ridiculous to hear these types of things. I doubt he'd be so loud if the street was closed only for sewer work or repaving.

 

On the other hand, you hear this same stuff with every big project, and luckily most of the complainers have a short attention span. I still remember all of the hooplah surrounding the HealthLine construction in Cleveland and how everyone complained that the construction was gridlocking downtown and killing business. None of those people pointed out that Euclid Avenue was nearly a ghost town pre-HealthLine anyway.

 

Sometimes when Dusty complains about our "downtown streets being destroyed" by streetcar construction, I point out that all of the streets will be repaved when the project is complete. (That's 12 lane-miles as someone pointed out earlier in this thread.) Additionally, with all of the new sewer, gas, water, electric, telephone, cable, and filter optic cable that's going in because of the streetcar, we're going to be in good shape for the next few decades.

 

What's funny is that there have been several interstate highway closures over the past few months because of the work on I-75 and the new I-71 interchange at MLK. Closing down an interstate highway is a much bigger deal than restricting traffic to one lane downtown (where people can go around the block and avoid it anyway). Yet no one is complaining about the highway work.

 

Maybe not in the paper, but believe me, plenty of people are complaining about the highway work.  Just ask someone who drives it a lot; 75 is a misery right now. 

What about Hop-on Cincinnati?

 

Haha, whatever happened to that? That seemed to die down really quickly.

What is the plan to cover operating costs? I saw the front page story of the Enquirer today was about operating costs and startup costs, both of which have not been identified yet.  Anything ever happen with the SID tax for along the route?

It seems to me there is little economic incentive for approving a special taxing district when the streetcar is going to happen, regardless. Could it pass on good will alone? Maybe, but that's highly questionable.

 

Would it be possible to approve an SID on condition of council committing to an Uptown extension? Or is there some sort of standard (e.g. ballot language) required for SID formations that would preclude such a stipulation?

Cranley was on with Cunningham again today and for the part of the interview that I heard, Cranley was pulling his typical negative tone on every reply about the streetcar.  He basically said he was waiting for the supporters to come up with how the operating costs would be paid.

 

Whatever happened to Cranley saying back in December that he would work to help find more private funds for the operating expenses?  Why hasn't anyone called him out on this, as I am sure he has done absolutely nothing with the streetcar since that time?

 

------------------

Cranley did commend Flynn, saying he “has delivered for the people of Cincinnati. He’s delivered $9 million. Not many people can say that.” Cranley pledged to try to raise more money from corporations for the operating costs.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/19/last-minute-deal-making-greenlights.html?page=all

-----------------

How are operating costs covered in other cities? I would assume some sort of dedicated transit tax that is used as part of the broader transit network is used in most places.  Of course, we don't have such a situation here, so SORTA can't simply lump the operating expenses of the streetcar in with their normal expenses, right?

Cranley will milk this for his entire time in office.  He will pull another "last-minute" deal when it's time to start staffing the streetcar.  He will dramatically pull the money from something everybody likes.  He'll turn off the decorative lights at City Hall and Music Hall -- anything he can to make it look like the city's in crisis. 

Cranley will milk this for his entire time in office.  He will pull another "last-minute" deal when it's time to start staffing the streetcar.  He will dramatically pull the money from something everybody likes.  He'll turn off the decorative lights at City Hall and Music Hall -- anything he can to make it look like the city's in crisis.

 

A few weeks ago Cranley blamed not having the Fort Washington Way cap on the streetcar

 

When did the opposition switch to operating costs?  Before they said the capital costs would bankrupt the city & turn us into detroit

 

"Supporters keep telling me its progress.  Bankruptcy is not progress" Chris Smitherman last year

Dusty Rhodes ‏@AuditorRhodes

QUESTION: How are @CityOfCincy  councilmembers seeking streetcar operating funding like the administration dealing with mid-east terrorists?

 

Dusty Rhodes ‏@AuditorRhodes 

ANSWER:  Neither has a strategy yet.

Operating costs should come out of the city's general fund. There is no logical reason that there needs to be a "special source" for it.

Dusty Rhodes ‏@AuditorRhodes

QUESTION: How are @CityOfCincy  councilmembers seeking streetcar operating funding like the administration dealing with mid-east terrorists?

 

Dusty Rhodes ‏@AuditorRhodes 

ANSWER:  Neither has a strategy yet.

 

Operating costs should come out of the city's general fund. There is no logical reason that there needs to be a "special source" for it.

 

Is there any way, come 2016, someone could put together a chart of the year over year increase in total tax revenues earned by the City of Cincinnati in OTR and the CDB, for the years coinciding with the core's revitalization?  I think most reasonable people (and you don't have to tell me we are not necessarily dealing with reasonable people) would be OK devoting a portion of  this increased revenue to the streetcar ops (the promise of the streetcar having played a role, albeit difficult to quantify, in the revitalization in the first place) with the promise of more growth ahead. I don't know if the capability's there to slice and dice the data in that way though.

^ I wrote to a reporter today suggesting just such a story.

Just listened to the john cranley podcast.  He revealed some new nuggets pertaining to the operation times.  It appears his plan is to cut the frequency of the rides, potentially to just the weekends:

 

 

We don’t have to run it every day

 

There’s no obligation we have to run it on a certain level of frequency

 

Maybe we’ll just run it on the weekends

They(supporters) are driving the taxpayers crazy

 

They are talking about phase 2 when phase 1 isn’t on time or under budget and we don’t know if anyone will ride it

 

We don't have an obligation on frequency. We can scale back the frequency of the rides to keep the deficit down

 

http://www.700wlw.com/media/podcast-bill-cunningham-bill_cunningham/streetcar-webn-fireworks-dui-82914-25231023/

LOL I thought it was under budget and ahead of schedule?

^ Looking out over the next two years of increasing repopulation and commercial activity along the streetcar line, I doubt there will be a majority of the 2016 City Council interested in qllowing a $133 million investment to be idle much of the time. And if there is, it will be one hell of a taxpayer's lawsuit.