I think our stop spacing is pretty good. The only weird stop spacing is on Walnut where there are two stops only 1 block apart. It's not a huge deal to add or remove stops over time, though. Tacoma is planning to remove an existing stop when they expand their modern streetcar system. John Schneider[/member] has mentioned that he thinks more stops could be added over time to our Phase 1A.

 

When I had a group in Portland last spring, I brought up this question to Chris Smith, who's on the board of Portland Streetcar Inc. and has a popular transportation blog. Before the streetcar was extended east across the Willamette River, where the stops are farther apart, I calculated that Portland's westside loop had 50% more stops per mile than Cincinnati's system. Chris asked me how many stops we had, and I told him 18 in 3.6 miles. He thought for a minute and then said, "Two-tenths of a mile between stops on average -- that's perfect." He went on to say that Portland now thinks the stops on the westside were built too close together.

 

I agree will Bill that we could use a stop on the south side of Washington Park. I asked them to add the stop @ 12th and Main to serve Upper Main Street better -- it was kind of left out in the planning process. I think the stop at Ninth and Walnut was mainly meant to serve the Library.

 

Stops can definitely be added. Tacoma added two stops on each side of Commerce Street a couple of years ago to facilitate new development there, eight or nine years after Tacoma's streetcar opened for business.

 

I'm not crazy about how the trackway moves in to meet the stops. It's going to cause some unnecessary swaying and make the ride less pleasant. When the streetcar pulls up to dock at a stop and then depart a few seconds later, people de-boarding and boarding are going to get a bit of a jolt.

 

By the way, I'm leading another trip out to Portland in March if anyone wants to go.

 

You know when in March? I'll already be there one weekend and would love to join up for one of your tours if I can make it work.

Day of the tour is Monday, March 16th.

Day of the tour is Monday, March 16th.

oh, bummer, I won't be there until Wednesday that week. I still plan to do lots of urban exploring. Could you share what you're typically itinerary looks like? or what major sites to see. (you can PM me.)

Send me your email, and I'll send you the Guide we send along with eveyone who makes the trip.

Here's some shots inside the MOF from this evening.  Too cold and dark to get any outside, but wow there's a lot of track work! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not crazy about how the trackway moves in to meet the stops. It's going to cause some unnecessary swaying and make the ride less pleasant. When the streetcar pulls up to dock at a stop and then depart a few seconds later, people de-boarding and boarding are going to get a bit of a jolt.

 

 

Interestingly, the 12th and Race street stop doesn't swerve over.  It's the only one that I'm aware of that doesn't shift over.

 

I'm not crazy about how the trackway moves in to meet the stops. It's going to cause some unnecessary swaying and make the ride less pleasant. When the streetcar pulls up to dock at a stop and then depart a few seconds later, people de-boarding and boarding are going to get a bit of a jolt.

 

 

Interestingly, the 12th and Race street stop doesn't swerve over.  It's the only one that I'm aware of that doesn't shift over.

 

COAST will declare that there will be a 6" gap between that platform and the streetcars.

 

I heard from an engineer that in the late 80s when the Red Line subway was under construction in LA that it was discovered that an engineering firm had signed off on inaccurate drawings that saw construction commence on a curve that was either too sharp or too wide.  As it was the early years of CAD, it's possible that an early version of the design was signed off by mistake.  Anyway the firm hired a law firm to quickly dissolve their company in order to avoid being sued by the transit agency. 

 

 

Kansas City is experimenting with a different type of stop design than we are. They will have a center 14" platform with 11" platforms on either side. When the streetcar pulls up to the stop the center two doors will be level boarding but the outer two doors will have a step up (or down) to board. Buses will be able to use the 11" platforms with their wheelchair lifts. Its an interesting design and I'll be curious how it works out.

Thanks for sharing those pics of the inside of the MOF.  Looks great! 

 

I'm not crazy about how the trackway moves in to meet the stops. It's going to cause some unnecessary swaying and make the ride less pleasant. When the streetcar pulls up to dock at a stop and then depart a few seconds later, people de-boarding and boarding are going to get a bit of a jolt.

 

 

Interestingly, the 12th and Race street stop doesn't swerve over.  It's the only one that I'm aware of that doesn't shift over.

 

I just went over to look at it and noticed that the track actually does curve over on the 1300 block, almost like they planned to have a stop at 13th and Race, moved it, and then forgot to change the plans for the trackwork.  Suddenly I'm wondering if they adjusted the plans for the 12th and Race station accordingly or if there really will be a 3" gap at that station...  I'm going to do some asking and find out.

 

 

I think the curb of Race Street shifts slightly between the 1200 block and the 1300 block.  At least I noticed that the sidewalk is wider north of 13th than it is south of 13th, I'm not 100% sure if the curbs align.

I asked John Deatrick why the alignment of the tracks seems to shift a little here and there, such as at Liberty. His answer: "Drunk surveryors when our streets were first laid out in the 1800's."

Have you ever really looked at McMillan Street?  It doesn't even pretend to try to be straight, especially in Walnut Hills, but it's on a section line.  The Hamilton/Butler county line zig-zags up and down, apparently because those early surveyors had improperly sized measuring chains. 

Crescentville and Fields-Ertel Roads are real picnics.

Have you ever really looked at McMillan Street?  It doesn't even pretend to try to be straight, especially in Walnut Hills, but it's on a section line.  The Hamilton/Butler county line zig-zags up and down, apparently because those early surveyors had improperly sized measuring chains. 

 

The Symmes Purchase was surveyed as quickly and cheaply as possible.  Ludlow and his boys illegally laid the whole place out oriented toward magnetic north, in violation of the terms of Symmes' purchase contract from the federal government.  By the time the feds figured it out Symmes had already sold much of the purchase. 

Have you ever really looked at McMillan Street?  It doesn't even pretend to try to be straight, especially in Walnut Hills, but it's on a section line.  The Hamilton/Butler county line zig-zags up and down, apparently because those early surveyors had improperly sized measuring chains. 

 

Yeah the federal government sent out its own crew to determine the Ohio-Indiana border in order to avoid the sort of nonsense that was going on in the 1780s and 90s in Ohio. 

Streetcar crossing of 6th street will be done by Tuesday, Jan 20th!  track bed is cut & emptied all the way to Government Place.

What would you build here? Let's play SimCity with the streetcar route

Tom Demeropolis and Chris Wetterich - Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The streetcar will roll in 18 months, and the promise of a true urban circulator system already has Cincinnati real estate developers grabbing chunks of property along the route and others planning major projects.

 

One of the biggest measures of success for the streetcar will be the economic development it spurs, and the potential for rising property values along the 3.6-mile loop.

 

Work is underway on a number of projects whose developers have said they were driven by the streetcar:

 

Cont - SUBSCRIBER CONTENT

Where do they come up with this stuff?

 

"1. Speed 3: Streetcar of Doom

 

Jack Travern (Keanu Reeves) is a retired cop on vacation with his family in Cincinnati. His wife, Annie (Sandra Bullock) and their daughter decide to do some sightseeing, so they hop on a streetcar to tour around the city. Uh oh. Someone decides to rig a bomb to the streetcar. Jack must jump back into hero mode. Cue the one-liners and the explosions. "

 

http://www.cincinnatirefined.com/arts-entertainment/The-Hollywood-Films-and-Actors-We-Wish-Would-Film-In-Cincinnati-288273871.html

 

It sounds like the streetcar is starting to be embraced as part of our local culture. Just wait until the day when the local news starts referring to the streetcar project without phrasing it as "the controversial streetcar project".

Where do they come up with this stuff?

 

"1. Speed 3: Streetcar of Doom

 

Jack Travern (Keanu Reeves) is a retired cop on vacation with his family in Cincinnati. His wife, Annie (Sandra Bullock) and their daughter decide to do some sightseeing, so they hop on a streetcar to tour around the city. Uh oh. Someone decides to rig a bomb to the streetcar. Jack must jump back into hero mode. Cue the one-liners and the explosions. "

 

http://www.cincinnatirefined.com/arts-entertainment/The-Hollywood-Films-and-Actors-We-Wish-Would-Film-In-Cincinnati-288273871.html

 

 

That movie exists- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Rounds_%28film%29

Developer: Streetcar spurred 20 new Downtown apartments

Bowdeya Tweh, 5:57 p.m. EST January 22, 2015

 

A developer has completed the renovation of a Downtown office building to house 20 new apartments and street-level retail space.

 

...

 

[Developer Joe] Levine said discussions about the then proposed Cincinnati streetcar helped him determine a residential redevelopment would be the best use for the building built in the early 1900s. Speaking in the building along the streetcar line Thursday, he said being connected without a car to Findlay Market, and other Downtown attractions would be appealing to new residents. In 2013, the city approved the Levine Properties affiliate to get a 12-year tax abatement for all improvements to the building.

 

"The streetcar played a big role in turning this into residential up top," Levine said. "It really helped us a lot."

 

Read more

This is from a University of Cincinnati sports message board but I found it very interesting. The context is that Santa Ono and Mike Bohn (athletic director) were recently in Dayton to meet with alumni and promote the university and athletics (and fund raise). A young man who was at the event posted the following about his experience. I'm going to post the entire thing for those that might be interested in expansion or athletic stuff and bold what is relevant to this thread:

 

You could tell that both President Ono and Bohn had to bite their tongue hard. They both really wanted to spill the beans. Ono pretty much said that we were in. He said that since he's not the one inviting, it wouldn't be appropriate for him to announce it.

Some more info... I walked in and was one of the younger alums there. Didn't know anyone so I went to one of the high top tables to eat some of the snacks provided. Some guy walked up to me in a suit and said, "Hey there, I like the jacket". I look up and it's Mike Bohn. I ended up talking to him for the next 20 minutes.

 

Some tidbits. This is all I remember for right now.

 

The enquirer didn't break the Under Armour story. Adidas put out a press release because they were pissed.

 

Bohn said they "worked their asses off" to secure that deal and that it more than doubles the current money

 

He said that shutting down Calhoun is out because the city said it is a primary egress route after football games. They are going to shut down short vine instead

 

Under Armour has assured UC that they'll get the Notre Dame treatment where they incorporate UC things into the uniforms. I told him about the city flag suggestion and he liked it a lot.

 

He said that the Under Armour deal will make UC more appealing to the BIG12.

 

I asked him about any other conferences... ACC... and he said that the BIG12 was the most likely

 

Asked Ono about the street car and he said that they are in talks to have it expanded to uptown, but UC may have to pay for some of it.

Very interesting... which message board was this posted on?

Bearcat Journal, in their excessive and overly whiny monthly expansion talk thread:

 

http://cincinnati.247sports.com/Reply/BearcatNation54-Reply-34981023

Was coming here to post the same. Would jive with past transit partnerships between UC and SORTA. Fun fact, up until 2009, UC used to subsidize free Metro passes for all students to the tune of $300k per year. After that, a deal was still subsidized, but at a lower rate and without free ridership.

 

I've long considered this a probable partnership to fund the uptown route operation. Would probably involve some capital dollars from UC as well.

Here in Louisville, UofL pays for all faculty, staff, and students to have free TARC rides. Humana, UPS, Louisville Metro Gov, and some others do as well.

I suspect that Ono would love to see the streetcar come up to UC, but doesn't want to enrage Kasich or Cranley.

Was coming here to post the same. Would jive with past transit partnerships between UC and SORTA. Fun fact, up until 2009, UC used to subsidize free Metro passes for all students to the tune of $300k per year. After that, a deal was still subsidized, but at a lower rate and without free ridership.

 

I've long considered this a probable partnership to fund the uptown route operation. Would probably involve some capital dollars from UC as well.

 

I am almost certain UC didn't lower the contribution to SORTA. It was time to renegotiate the agreement, and SORTA received a lot more ridership than expected and were overwhelmed with students handing off IDs to friends and using old student IDs to continue riding free, so they had to do something a little different. Now students can pay $53/semester for unlimited Zone 1 rides and pay the additional zone charges if they travel outside of that. Or they can receive a card completely free and get a ride anywhere in the system for $1/ride. Both are great deals, but I think SORTA should go back to offering free rides to all students. It will build future ridership.

Fun fact, up until 2009, UC used to subsidize free Metro passes for all students to the tune of $300k per year.

 

Yeah okay, but that started in like 2007 or 2008.

Thought you'd all find this funny. First race on the new season of Top Gear features Richard Hammond crossing a streetcar track, it catching his wheel, and him falling down and hurting himself. Not quite as dramatic though as the signs along our route would suggest.

From an otherwise glowing review of Cranley's first year, the Enquirer's only real criticism of the Mayor's performance to date:

The last issue is nowhere on the mayor's list, and that's the problem. The streetcar is coming, and we will continue to urge Cranley to not only passively accept that fact but to emulate Councilwoman Amy Murray and actively embrace its possibilities.

 

It's no secret that mass transit, walkable neighborhoods and bikes are attractive to millennials – the workers of the future – and Cranley ignores that population at the peril of our city.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/editorials/2015/01/24/cranley-year-full-steam-ahead/22279489/

We have catenary wires!

 

 

 

Here's where they end:

True to John's word, I looked at these pictures before I read the text and thought "what exactly was he taking a picture of?"

So much wire pollution. I can't even see the sky now!

^Could be worse.  :-D

 

<br /><img src="http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l258/GabrielsPlace/thailandbest/P1192048.jpg" alt="" border="0" onload="NcodeImageResizer.createOn(this);" class="bbc_img" /><br /><br />

^ What COAST wants you to believe:

 

In Milwaukee, the citizens actually fought against burying the power lines in one of the city's main neighborhood business districts.  I was in my undergrad there at the time and people were storming city hall to have the power lines removed from the city's streetscaping plans.

 

John Norquist, president of the Congress for New Urbanism and former Milwaukee mayor returned to Milwaukee in 2012 and said this:

"The neighborhood made a good move in not spending $2.5 million to bury power lines during its streetscaping project. People like things a little dirty and jumbled and do not clamor for banners, planters and other impedimenta. "

 

http://urbanmilwaukeedial.com/2012/04/19/horne-norquist-promotes-mixed-use-development-on-brady-st/

I don't think all wires are bad but if you check out the private lanes around town (there are a bunch in East Walnut Hills) you really start to notice that not having those wooden poles every so often actually makes things a lot nicer.

In Milwaukee, the citizens actually fought against burying the power lines in one of the city's main neighborhood business districts.  I was in my undergrad there at the time and people were storming city hall to have the power lines removed from the city's streetscaping plans.

 

John Norquist, president of the Congress for New Urbanism and former Milwaukee mayor returned to Milwaukee in 2012 and said this:

"The neighborhood made a good move in not spending $2.5 million to bury power lines during its streetscaping project. People like things a little dirty and jumbled and do not clamor for banners, planters and other impedimenta. "

 

http://urbanmilwaukeedial.com/2012/04/19/horne-norquist-promotes-mixed-use-development-on-brady-st/

 

I don't mind the streetcar wires since they're barely visible and there aren't a lot of other overhead wires (at least where I live), but I couldn't disagree more with Norquist's quote.  Sheesh, what's wrong with clean?  What's wrong with planters?  I was so glad when newspapers stopped cluttering sidewalk corners with their boxes since they weren't well-stocked to begin with, were dirt magnets, made it harder to keep the pavement clean, people occasionally beat on them like drums and often left food and beverages on top of them. 

 

One thing I really like about living in the CBD is that there aren't utility poles and wires all over the place.  It's not a pleasant sight to look out of an upper floor window right into a tangle of power lines.  I'm so glad our utilities are buried -- we don't suffer power outages like other neighborhoods do that don't have buried utilities.  Those people in Milwaukee made an unwise decision IMO.

 

If engineers could figure out how to eliminate catenary wires, I have no doubt they would.  They don't exist because people clamor for them.  Except maybe some Milwaukeeans.

ProkNo5 your photo looking up Elm reminded me of a streetcar extension idea I had several years ago.  Notice the location of the broadcast tower in this photo:

 

I made this drawing of a line extension northward to Clifton Ave. in a tunnel, with a station where the broadcast tower is now.  That site could be redeveloped as a hi-density apartment complex with very convenient public transportation to both UC and Downtown:

 

In Milwaukee, the citizens actually fought against burying the power lines in one of the city's main neighborhood business districts.  I was in my undergrad there at the time and people were storming city hall to have the power lines removed from the city's streetscaping plans.

 

John Norquist, president of the Congress for New Urbanism and former Milwaukee mayor returned to Milwaukee in 2012 and said this:

"The neighborhood made a good move in not spending $2.5 million to bury power lines during its streetscaping project. People like things a little dirty and jumbled and do not clamor for banners, planters and other impedimenta. "

 

http://urbanmilwaukeedial.com/2012/04/19/horne-norquist-promotes-mixed-use-development-on-brady-st/

 

I don't mind the streetcar wires since they're barely visible and there aren't a lot of other overhead wires (at least where I live), but I couldn't disagree more with Norquist's quote.  Sheesh, what's wrong with clean?  What's wrong with planters?  I was so glad when newspapers stopped cluttering sidewalk corners with their boxes since they weren't well-stocked to begin with, were dirt magnets, made it harder to keep the pavement clean, people occasionally beat on them like drums and often left food and beverages on top of them. 

 

One thing I really like about living in the CBD is that there aren't utility poles and wires all over the place.  It's not a pleasant sight to look out of an upper floor window right into a tangle of power lines.  I'm so glad our utilities are buried -- we don't suffer power outages like other neighborhoods do that don't have buried utilities.  Those people in Milwaukee made an unwise decision IMO.

 

If engineers could figure out how to eliminate catenary wires, I have no doubt they would.  They don't exist because people clamor for them.  Except maybe some Milwaukeeans.

 

I think the big difference is that very few streets in Milwaukee have utility poles to begin with as they were all mostly installed in alleys. People viewed it as a unique asset to the neighborhood.

 

Honestly, I'm not arguing that we should keep utilities above ground in Over-the-Rhine. I'm just offering an alternative perspective.

ProkNo5 your photo looking up Elm reminded me of a streetcar extension idea I had several years ago.  Notice the location of the broadcast tower in this photo:

 

I made this drawing of a line extension northward to Clifton Ave. in a tunnel, with a station where the broadcast tower is now.  That site could be redeveloped as a hi-density apartment complex with very convenient public transportation to both UC and Downtown:

 

LOL. You're just trying to get a streetcar station at your house. ;-)

Incidentally it's only about an 8 minute walk from Murphy's Pub at Warner St. to Findlay Market and the top of the streetcar line using the Race St. steps.  However almost nobody does it because I don't think many UC students know that Findlay Market exists.  This year many UC students attempted to ride the #17 to games at Paul Brown Stadium, however I usually saw the buses completely full by the time they reached W. Clifton and so the dozens of students passed by caused surges on Uber and Lyft. 

Incidentally it's only about an 8 minute walk from Murphy's Pub at Warner St. to Findlay Market and the top of the streetcar line using the Race St. steps.  However almost nobody does it because I don't think many UC students know that Findlay Market exists.  This year many UC students attempted to ride the #17 to games at Paul Brown Stadium, however I usually saw the buses completely full by the time they reached W. Clifton and so the dozens of students passed by caused surges on Uber and Lyft. 

 

The northernmost streetcar stop (and thus Findlay Market) is definitely within walking distance for most of the residents living on the far south end of CUF (really most anything south of Warner). I think the reason you don't see a lot of people make that walk, aside from the simple fact it's a large hill, is the condition of the Race Street steps. The steps themselves are in great shape, but the brush and weeds around them quickly grow to several feet tall, and become completely covered with litter. It occasional looks like someone lives down there, as well. It would be a good place to organize a cleanup and try to encourage more UC students to utilize them.

 

As development at the north end of the streetcar continues, it will be interesting to see if there’s any interest in adding more steps where they have been removed. There were once steps at virtually every block – Klotter to Ravine, Stratford to Mohawk, Stonewall up to Hastings, and Elm up to Clifton. It wasn’t until the 90’s that the last of them were removed.

ProkNo5 your photo looking up Elm reminded me of a streetcar extension idea I had several years ago.  Notice the location of the broadcast tower in this photo:

 

I made this drawing of a line extension northward to Clifton Ave. in a tunnel, with a station where the broadcast tower is now.  That site could be redeveloped as a hi-density apartment complex with very convenient public transportation to both UC and Downtown:

 

LOL. You're just trying to get a streetcar station at your house. ;-)

 

^this line could then go past skyline on Ludlow make a right at Glenmary to get to the zoo

I have seen and heard from some more enterprising UC students who have walked to Rhinegeist via the Ohio Ave. steps, which is definitely a shadier route than W. Clifton.  Schwart'z point over to Findlay Market is not an intimidating area at night anymore. 

Has everyone seen the new tiny LED's installed around UC's campus by UC & Duke Energy? I would LOVE to see a couple of these installed along City Steps.

If engineers could figure out how to eliminate catenary wires, I have no doubt they would.  They don't exist because people clamor for them.  Except maybe some Milwaukeeans.

 

Keep in mind that the catenary wire acts as a reference point for those unfamiliar with the area (tourists, business travelers, etc.).  This is a small part of why rail transit is preferable to bus lines.  You always know where the train runs and which direction.  That allows people to wander and explore in a way that they aren't comfortable doing otherwise, because you can spot that wire from blocks away if you get turned around.  So even if you could eliminate the catenary wire, there are people who would argue that it is a valuable part of the system.

Yeah a tunnel / subway would obviously be the best way to go, speed it up considerably and in the long run be better for the city.

 

Would it re-surface at the spot by Hughes high school and then continue on from there to the hospitals, etc?