1 down 4 to go.

Jesus the messages on Cincinnati.com article to the street car is scary. Like these people are seriously legit pissed that this thing exsists. They proclaim how they will be able to walk faster and how it will die within the year. They are just livid this exists.

 

I just don't understand why people are so angry? If you don't have a use for it then fine, but why can't you be happy for people who will use it on a daily basis? Why does it affect them.. Especially if they live in there suburbs and will get to keep there Toyotas anyway

Jesus the messages on Cincinnati.com article to the street car is scary. Like these people are seriously legit pissed that this thing exsists. They proclaim how they will be able to walk faster and how it will die within the year. They are just livid this exists.

 

I just don't understand why people are so angry? If you don't have a use for it then fine, but why can't you be happy for people who will use it on a daily basis? Why does it affect them.. Especially if they live in there suburbs and will get to keep there Toyotas anyway

 

And some people refused to get off the Titanic and climb into the first lifeboats. Not saying that anyone is at risk of drowning, but cities don't succeed without quality public transportation either. Many of the world's most beloved cities have streetcars/trams. Ohio's largest cities would be wise to imitate them -- especially the assets we fear, don't understand, or appreciate because those are usually the ingredients we're missing the most.

Yeah but what I don't understand is where does the fear stem from? And why isn't there more excitement for our city to grow

Yeah but what I don't understand is where does the fear stem from? And why isn't there more excitement for our city to grow

 

My father has worked in downtown Cincinnati his entire adult life, since the early 80's. While I don't live in the Cincinnati area now, whenever I visit I try to get downtown or OTR as much as I can to check out new development and entertainment options. When I occasionally bring up doing something in OTR as a family, he says he would NEVER visit any new establishment in OTR, because he doesn't believe in the Cincinnati Streetcar and doesn't want to have anything to do with its potential success.

 

I was totally flabbergasted by this revelation; he's logged over 60,000 hours of his life in downtown Cincinnati, so I thought for sure he would appreciate the success and investment that downtown and OTR have seen recently after decades of neglect. At the very least, I thought maybe he would be totally indifferent to what is happening, since the type of entertainment options that have been popping up in OTR aren't necessarily for everyone. He was actually hostile to the idea of spending any time or money in OTR, and it sounded like it had almost everything to do with the streetcar. He's a devout Catholic Republican that has spent his entire life in the Northern Kentucky suburbs, so take that for what you will.

 

These are the types of people we are up against, and I'm not sure if any amount of success will turn their opinion on the matter. It's going to take many years until the region fully embraces the Cincinnati Streetcar and rail's future in the region, but I think Cincinnati's off to a great start.

Yeah but what I don't understand is where does the fear stem from? And why isn't there more excitement for our city to grow

 

My father has worked in downtown Cincinnati his entire adult life, since the early 80's. While I don't live in the Cincinnati area now, whenever I visit I try to get downtown or OTR as much as I can to check out new development and entertainment options. When I occasionally bring up doing something in OTR as a family, he says he would NEVER visit any new establishment in OTR, because he doesn't believe in the Cincinnati Streetcar and doesn't want to have anything to do with its potential success.

 

I was totally flabbergasted by this revelation; he's logged over 60,000 hours of his life in downtown Cincinnati, so I thought for sure he would appreciate the success and investment that downtown and OTR have seen recently after decades of neglect. At the very least, I thought maybe he would be totally indifferent to what is happening, since the type of entertainment options that have been popping up in OTR aren't necessarily for everyone. He was actually hostile to the idea of spending any time or money in OTR, and it sounded like it had almost everything to do with the streetcar. He's a devout Catholic Republican that has spent his entire life in the Northern Kentucky suburbs, so take that for what you will.

 

These are the types of people we are up against, and I'm not sure if any amount of success will turn their opinion on the matter. It's going to take many years until the region fully embraces the Cincinnati Streetcar and rail's future in the region, but I think Cincinnati's off to a great start.

 

Thanks for the story.

 

But again, WHY is he so angry? Did he have to pay for it? If not, then why does it matter for him? That's what I really don't get. Okay you have no use for the streetcar. Fine, I get that. But what the hell makes people so irritated about the street car? People literally act as if the street car was built from a portion of there paycheck. You don't live in Cincinnati. You live in the suburbs. Yet people get angry, and I just don't understand why.

 

My friends who live in Blue Ash acknowledge that they will probably never use it. But are happy for people who live in OTR/Banks, or poorer residents who live in the northern stretches of OTR and can use it as a main way of transportation to get groceries at the Vine street kroger. They see the practicality of it, even if it's not for them. But the people who didn't spend a dime for the streetcar, who live in the suburbs, who work in the suburbs, who go to downtown maybe twice a month for drinks at OTR, they are up in arms! BAGHHHH!! Seriously? I'm embarrassed quite frankly.

 

Taken for a Ride is a bit heavy-handed and sappy in its presentation, and could use some fleshing out in its history and analysis, but it's still worth a watch.  Of course, there's also my website too :) http://jjakucyk.com/transit/

 

 

Agreed on all accounts.  "Taken..." is a good initiation doc.  I usually suggest "Geography of Nowhere" to move up the esoteric scale. Any others?

 

Love your website, BTW.

I've been asking these questions for years (since this thread started in 2006!).  I think it all comes down to simple ignorance and fear of what they don't understand.  The people who are most angry about this are the most ignorant and fearful people in the city.  They are people who have never travelled outside of this region.  They have never lived anywhere other than where they grew up.  They have never been friends with people from other backgrounds.  They have never known anything other than an automobile dominated society and honestly have no idea that there are other ways to live your life outside of what they know.  I grew up with people like that.  My father is like that.  Many of the people I went to high school with are like that.  Cincinnati has a lot of people who fit into this description.  They get screwed up ideas in their head about this stuff and just get angry because that's all they know how to do (plus they have to sit in traffic all day and they don't realize that its their cars that are making them miserable).

The good news is that our demographics are changing rapidly.  Since 2008 when I moved back here after med school I've seen an enormous influx of intelligent, well rounded people who understand the value of a healthy urban core and fully support rail transit.  This is going to accelerate exponentially now that this system is up and running.  I am really excited to see what will happen over the next 10 years.  I'm still shocked at how vibrant OTR has become since 2008, especially in the last few years.  Every time I walk around the neighborhood, especially on weekends, I can not believe all the development and people.  The angry people are becoming more and more of a minority every day.

 

Yeah but what I don't understand is where does the fear stem from? And why isn't there more excitement for our city to grow

 

My father has worked in downtown Cincinnati his entire adult life, since the early 80's. While I don't live in the Cincinnati area now, whenever I visit I try to get downtown or OTR as much as I can to check out new development and entertainment options. When I occasionally bring up doing something in OTR as a family, he says he would NEVER visit any new establishment in OTR, because he doesn't believe in the Cincinnati Streetcar and doesn't want to have anything to do with its potential success.

 

I was totally flabbergasted by this revelation; he's logged over 60,000 hours of his life in downtown Cincinnati, so I thought for sure he would appreciate the success and investment that downtown and OTR have seen recently after decades of neglect. At the very least, I thought maybe he would be totally indifferent to what is happening, since the type of entertainment options that have been popping up in OTR aren't necessarily for everyone. He was actually hostile to the idea of spending any time or money in OTR, and it sounded like it had almost everything to do with the streetcar. He's a devout Catholic Republican that has spent his entire life in the Northern Kentucky suburbs, so take that for what you will.

 

These are the types of people we are up against, and I'm not sure if any amount of success will turn their opinion on the matter. It's going to take many years until the region fully embraces the Cincinnati Streetcar and rail's future in the region, but I think Cincinnati's off to a great start.

 

Thanks for the story.

 

But again, WHY is he so angry? Did he have to pay for it? If not, then why does it matter for him? That's what I really don't get. Okay you have no use for the streetcar. Fine, I get that. But what the hell makes people so irritated about the street car? People literally act as if the street car was built from a portion of there paycheck. You don't live in Cincinnati. You live in the suburbs. Yet people get angry, and I just don't understand why.

 

My friends who live in Blue Ash acknowledge that they will probably never use it. But are happy for people who live in OTR/Banks, or poorer residents who live in the northern stretches of OTR and can use it as a main way of transportation to get groceries at the Vine street kroger. They see the practicality of it, even if it's not for them. But the people who didn't spend a dime for the streetcar, who live in the suburbs, who work in the suburbs, who go to downtown maybe twice a month for drinks at OTR, they are up in arms! BAGHHHH!! Seriously? I'm embarrassed quite frankly.

I'm sure this has already been the subject of posts, but I just noticed a "new" :wave: angle to the streetcar rollout as I was reading the initial delivery coverage on page 8A, Fridays Enquirer:  "He (Mayor Cranley) wants the streetcar to start operating later each day and run until midnight on weekdays and 2AM on weekends.  (The current proposal is from 6AM-10 PM Mon.-Thurs. & Sun. and 6AM-Midnight on Fri., Sat.)"  So, it looks like Cranley is basically shifting the whole schedule block of time 2 hours later in the day, for a presumed start time of 8:00AM?  Is this what he's thinking? Is this an attempt to make it more difficult for morning commuters to use the streetcar for work trips, thereby undermining the support that has been expressed by major CBD employers? :wtf:

I think Mayor Cranley still regards the streetcar as a toy and not serious transportation. He'll learn.

So what are the chances of him successfully undermining the project by monkeying with the operating hours?  Lots of luck with that :wink:  Employer flex-time anyone?

Pretty sure SORTA will have the final say on the operating hours. And Cincinnatians would prefer that.

Pretty sure SORTA will have the final say on the operating hours. And Cincinnatians would prefer that.

 

I'm assuming that either they or other audits of the systems' operations have projected ridership broken down by hour.

The Millennials/The Hipsters that already frequent OTR on a daily basis or who live there will be what makes the street car work and carry the torch long enough till we can see actual praticality for it like connecting the street car up to clifton.

 

 

I think Mayor Cranley still regards the streetcar as a toy and not serious transportation. He'll learn.

 

I'm still waiting for someone in the media to ask him if he ever rode the T when he was at Harvard, or if he just phoned up his driver. 

 

The Harvard Square station was rebuilt in the early 1980s as part of the Harvard-Alewife extension, which is a mostly deep bore subway extension of the mostly cut-and-cover 1912 red line.  Not only was Cincinnati's subway built to the red line's specs, the Harvard-Alewife extension is an example of the sort of modern deep bore subway system that could connect Cincinnati's various neighborhood business districts.  If not for Cranley's mentor Tom Luken, we very well might have gotten one of the federal UMTA grants that went to other cities. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GiPRn9hXEs

I revisited Travis's idea from the map that he posted a few pages back dealing with an extension to Northside partially using the old subway tunnels and added my own details.  The existing line would be extended northward to McMicken where it cuts over Stark St. in the area of  Hanna Playground and then enters the underground.  The old Brighton station is used as a stop. The line emerges from the tunnels south or Marshall and travels in a dedicated right of way in between I-75 and Central Parkway.  with further stops at Marshall and Monmouth Avenues to try to serve Camp Washington.  The tracks get back on the Parkway for a Cincinnati State stop.  Then they can either go through Mt. Storm Park over a new dedicated viaduct to the Metro transit center in Northside as shown, or they could use the existing Ludlow viaduct and take a right on Spring Grove to get to the transit center. 

 

Assuming the an average of 25 mph after going underground all the way to Northside, and assuming 8 mph in the current streetcar loop, the line would take about 24 minutes from end to end and be competitive with car travel.  With 5 vehicles in operation the minimum headway would be a little under 10 minutes.  You would be adding to the line, according to 2010 Census figures: 2,233 people in Brighton, 1,343 in Camp Washington, and 7,467 from Northside for a total of 11,013.  You would be adding a big institution, Cincinnati State, adding the Northside neighborhood business district, and also be connecting to an important transit center outside of downtown. 

 

 

Some notes on this idea: 1. You're only using a portion of the old subway, so that should save money over rehabbing the whole thing. Of course there would be further savings by just running on the surface of Central Parkway, but you would be slowed by sharing the right of way.  2. You're not connecting downtown/OTR to another employment center like you would be with an extension to Uptown.  However, you're connecting downtown and OTR to something it is currently lacking- a good amount of affordable market rate housing stock. 3.  As opposed to Uptown there may be less stakeholders to coordinate with different ideas of what should happen. 4. Could exist in parallel with the Mt. Auburn tunnel.

 

taestell[/member] said his map was jmecklenborg[/member] inspired- would you guys mid if I cross-posted this post on my website https://cincinnatiideas.wordpress.com/  ?

 

Some photos from Friday:

 

 

 

Thanks for the photos!  It's simply beautiful.  Every bit as impressive as pics of CAF cars in European cities. We are so lucky to have these.

Stunning!  Thanks, Travis!

Thanks for the photos!  It's simply beautiful.  Every bit as impressive as pics of CAF cars in European cities. We are so lucky to have these.

I'm sure this has already been the subject of posts, but I just noticed a "new" :wave: angle to the streetcar rollout as I was reading the initial delivery coverage on page 8A, Fridays Enquirer:  "He (Mayor Cranley) wants the streetcar to start operating later each day and run until midnight on weekdays and 2AM on weekends.  (The current proposal is from 6AM-10 PM Mon.-Thurs. & Sun. and 6AM-Midnight on Fri., Sat.)"  So, it looks like Cranley is basically shifting the whole schedule block of time 2 hours later in the day, for a presumed start time of 8:00AM?  Is this what he's thinking? Is this an attempt to make it more difficult for morning commuters to use the streetcar for work trips, thereby undermining the support that has been expressed by major CBD employers? :wtf:

 

I like John Cranley about as much as I like stubbing my toe, but I was wondering about the operating hours as well. I think 6 AM is a great start time - that allows people to monthly park wherever and use the streetcar to get where they need to go. Imagine if you work in OTR or the North End of the CBD and want to park monthly at the Banks garage. Even in bad weather, the streetcar is now you're commuting vehicle and opens up the options for where to park, get coffee, run errands etc before work.

 

The midnight close time perplexes me. Wouldn't it make sense to have the streetcar rolling late for those out enjoying the town? One of the things I love about the streetcar is I can go down to a Reds game (usually over around 10 PM) and then hop on it to anywhere I want in downtown/OTR without a ridiculous walk or trying to find a place for my car. I'd love if the streetcar was still rolling when the bars let out, rather than having to curtail my night early to fetch my vehicle. Even without the Reds game thing - lots of my friends love going to OTR on the weekends and it's a great time usually, but parking is a nightmare on the weekends.

However, those with more experience on the issue - maybe that's not the best operating venture and the proposed hours make sense based on what has been seen in other cities?

Keep in mind that the Portland Streetcar's "rush hour" is between 11 a.m. and 3 p.m. (which I assume correlates to office workers taking the streetcar to go out for lunch).

 

Does the system really need to start running at 6 a.m. on weekends? What about:

 

Mon-Thu - 6 a.m. to 10 p.m.

Friday - 6 a.m. to 2 a.m.

Sat - 8 a.m. to 2 a.m.

Sun -  8 a.m. to 10 p.m.

 

That is the exact same number of hours as what slumcat[/member] posted above, except that it opens later on weekends and runs later on Friday and Saturday nights.

 

Also, as it becomes clear that the system is successful, I think it council will be able to push for more funding it allow it to run with more frequency and/or longer hours.

Some photos from Friday:

 

 

 

 

I love that old guy with the walker on the right side of the picture. He has a great smile on his face.

That's Earl Clark, I got to speak with him briefly during the delivery and he's a bit of a fan of streetcars to say the very least. Quite the rail historian.

Keep in mind that the Portland Streetcar's "rush hour" is between 11 a.m. and 3 p.m. (which I assume correlates to office workers taking the streetcar to go out for lunch).

 

Does the system really need to start running at 6 a.m. on weekends? What about:

 

Mon-Thu - 6 a.m. to 10 p.m.

Friday - 6 a.m. to 2 a.m.

Sat - 8 a.m. to 2 a.m.

Sun -  8 a.m. to 10 p.m.

 

That is the exact same number of hours as what slumcat[/member] posted above, except that it opens later on weekends and runs later on Friday and Saturday nights.

 

Also, as it becomes clear that the system is successful, I think it council will be able to push for more funding it allow it to run with more frequency and/or longer hours.

 

I really like this schedule, although I would prefer it goes until 2:15 or 2:30 on Friday & Saturday. A lot people wouldn't realize they have to be on the streetcar before 2:00am in order to make it to their car/home. Perhaps having a single streetcar do a loop from the maintenance facility and back at 2:00 would suffice. And decreasing frequency drastically really late would help extend the hours. As long as you can track the streetcar by phone or arrival time board or something late at night I think it would be acceptable. People would just have to realize frequency is cut at wee hours of the night.

That's Earl Clark, I got to speak with him briefly during the delivery and he's a bit of a fan of streetcars to say the very least. Quite the rail historian.

 

He also rode the final paid trip in 1951.

We definitely don't need 6 am start times on weekends. In the handful of times I've been up at that time on weekends there is barely a person on the streets at that hour. That's a bad use of operating budget.

 

Starting at 8 on weekends makes so much sense and reducing operations to two trains at night past 10 until 2:15 or so also makes sense to me. As long as there is a super easy to use app that is drunk-friendly.

^I felt that way 5 years ago, but now I think that Uber fills the late night bar hopping need pretty well.  I'd rather see more frequent pickups during shorter hours at this point.  It would be interesting to see a cost vs fare revenue break down of having a clean-up train like you are suggesting, though.  I suppose they could try it a few times and see what happens.  It would be great to have something like that for events like Oktoberfest and MPMF.

True, but for a lot of people who are looking to get back to their car or their home (if they live down there) the streetcar is an easier, more affordable option. I only ever use Uber if I'm in an area that doesn't have other quick options to get home like Red Bike, buses, etc.

 

Though I do agree more frequent stops at peak hours is definitely most important to its success.

^Edited my post while you were posting this one.  It's interesting how much has changed since the streetcar was first proposed.  Red Bike is another great example.  Things that just didn't exist like Uber and Red Bike are filling niches that the Streetcar might have awkwardly tried to fill otherwise.  Together, all of these additions will work in concert with the Streetcar (and hopefully an improved and streamlined bus system) to make the whole basin more accessible.

Things have definitely changed. The streetcar can't, and shouldn't, try to be everything for everyone. Though the delays were a massive pain in the ass some benefits did come from them like having a better transportation network in the basin than originally planned due to the introductions of ride share and bike share programs. It will allow the streetcar to do what it was designed to do and these others options can pick up the slack in areas the streetcar couldn't provide the necessary service to be efficient and useful.

I think Mayor Cranley still regards the streetcar as a toy and not serious transportation. He'll learn.

 

Serious question:  Was Cranley present on Friday?  I assume not, since I haven't heard about it and didn't see him in any pictures.  I look forward to whether he continues to openly oppose the project after it is running, embraces it, or just hides from it.

He was not there. I think only a few council members showed up to the event.

 

Regardless of their opinion it's petty to not have shown up. It's a big deal whether they like it or not and having a presence at important city events is crucial to earning respect.

2AM service is this silly idea, mostly being recommended by people who are not out at 2AM every friday and saturday.  1AM is plenty.  There is such little benefit to moving people around at 1:55 in the morning vs. the negatives that can attach to that.  Now, long distance? Yes I would want a light rail line to operate 5AM to 3AM, but for a circulator it doesn't make sense when compared to the costs/downsides.  Also, downtown at 6AM is a ghost town.  Even 7AM barely has folks.  6AM on a sunday in OTR is a joke almost.

 

My proposed schedule:

 

7AM-11PM Monday - Thurs

7AM-1AM Friday

8AM - 1AM Saturday

8AM-10PM Sunday

He was not there. I think only a few council members showed up to the event.

 

Regardless of their opinion it's petty to not have shown up. It's a big deal whether they like it or not and having a presence at important city events is crucial to earning respect.

 

Definitely.  It's a stark contrast to the ground breaking in front of Music Hall back in 2012.

2AM service is this silly idea, mostly being recommended by people who are not out at 2AM every friday and saturday.  1AM is plenty.  There is such little benefit to moving people around at 1:55 in the morning vs. the negatives that can attach to that.  Now, long distance? Yes I would want a light rail line to operate 5AM to 3AM, but for a circulator it doesn't make sense when compared to the costs/downsides.  Also, downtown at 6AM is a ghost town.  Even 7AM barely has folks.  6AM on a sunday in OTR is a joke almost.

 

My proposed schedule:

 

7AM-11PM Monday - Thurs

7AM-1AM Friday

8AM - 1AM Saturday

8AM-10PM Sunday

 

I would completely support that schedule if it meant that we could have 10 or 12 minute frequency for most of the operating hours.

I could definitely get behind that schedule. Gives more budget to shorter headway during peak hours and operates when the most demand is actually there. I agree that 6 am seems too early for weekdays as well. It's absolutely too early for weekends but from experience the number of people who would be using it at 6 on a weekday is super limited. This is very much an 8-5 city (in terms of the workday) and our transit systems should reflect this.

He was not there. I think only a few council members showed up to the event.

 

Regardless of their opinion it's petty to not have shown up. It's a big deal whether they like it or not and having a presence at important city events is crucial to earning respect.

 

Definitely.  It's a stark contrast to the ground breaking in front of Music Hall back in 2012.

 

Chris Seelbach and Amy Murray were present. Mark Mallory and Roxanne Qualls were also there.

David Mann was also there. Yvette was out of the state.  PG was likely campaigning somewhere else in Ohio. 

2AM service is this silly idea, mostly being recommended by people who are not out at 2AM every friday and saturday.  1AM is plenty.  There is such little benefit to moving people around at 1:55 in the morning vs. the negatives that can attach to that.  Now, long distance? Yes I would want a light rail line to operate 5AM to 3AM, but for a circulator it doesn't make sense when compared to the costs/downsides.  Also, downtown at 6AM is a ghost town.  Even 7AM barely has folks.  6AM on a sunday in OTR is a joke almost.

 

My proposed schedule:

 

7AM-11PM Monday - Thurs

7AM-1AM Friday

8AM - 1AM Saturday

8AM-10PM Sunday

 

The only thing I'd change is to extend Sunday to 11PM.  That way, you only have to keep track of 2 start times and 2 end times (weekdays start at 7AM, weekends start at 8AM, weeknights end at 11PM, weekend nights end at 1AM).  This ignores cost and ridership of course, but I value simplicity in all things, including schedules. 

2AM service is this silly idea, mostly being recommended by people who are not out at 2AM every friday and saturday.  1AM is plenty.  There is such little benefit to moving people around at 1:55 in the morning vs. the negatives that can attach to that.  Now, long distance? Yes I would want a light rail line to operate 5AM to 3AM, but for a circulator it doesn't make sense when compared to the costs/downsides.  Also, downtown at 6AM is a ghost town.  Even 7AM barely has folks.  6AM on a sunday in OTR is a joke almost.

 

My proposed schedule:

 

7AM-11PM Monday - Thurs

7AM-1AM Friday

8AM - 1AM Saturday

8AM-10PM Sunday

 

The only thing I'd change is to extend Sunday to 11PM.  That way, you only have to keep track of 2 start times and 2 end times (weekdays start at 7AM, weekends start at 8AM, weeknights end at 11PM, weekend nights end at 1AM).  This ignores cost and ridership of course, but I value simplicity in all things, including schedules. 

 

That's a good point. Anyone know what's in the operating budget in terms of:

 

# of trips/day

Time for 1 car to complete the loop

 

With this info, I'd love to sort of tweak the operating hours and headways to see what we can do. Really, operations come down to trips/day. This is where the cost is and I'm figuring this is a fixed number. Adjusting the operating hours would allow for the headways to adjust without affecting operational expenses. I'm sure some very smart people are working on this, but I'm just curious and want to mess around with it. :)

^speed matters too, and will vary with time of day. It's going to take longer to complete a loop at rush hour, due to traffic and stopping to pick up people at most of the stops, than it would late at night when the streets are clear and it's making less stops.  So you might be able to obtain a good frequency late at night with only 2 streetcars running as opposed to during peak times when you would need 3 or even 4. I imagine there are estimates for speeds somewhere that would be further refined during the test phase.

2 cars is roughly 15 minute service, 3 cars is roughly 12 minute service. 4 cars would be roughly 8 minute service. Like thebillshark just said, all times vary slightly due to the mixed-traffic nature of streetcars.

That's very good news that we can expect 12 minute headways with only 3 cars running. We should never rely on all 5 cars running (one should be kept as a hot spare).

2 cars is roughly 15 minute service, 3 cars is roughly 12 minute service. 4 cars would be roughly 8 minute service. Like thebillshark just said, all times vary slightly due to the mixed-traffic nature of streetcars.

 

Completely understood. I have experience as a transit planner with TARC in Louisville. :) What I got from your post is that it ranges from 30-40 minutes for 1 trip around the loop. How many trips per day are budgeted? Anyone know?

How are people going to know after midnight (or whenever they stop running) that the streetcars aren't running?  Will there be electronic message boards? 

 

Also I don't think it's a good idea to keep these things running until the bars close on Fridays and Saturdays.  It's much better to have them stop running at 12 or 1 to avoid vomiting, fights, damage to the interiors, people falling in front of them, etc. 

What is the maximum capacity of the car and what kind of demand would make it worthwhile to operate between 1 or 1:30 and 2am?

What is the maximum capacity of the car and what kind of demand would make it worthwhile to operate between 1 or 1:30 and 2am?

 

You don't want the drunks on the thing.  They won't respect it.  Ride the NYC subway at 3am and you'll see the sort of idiocy we can expect here. 

What is the maximum capacity of the car and what kind of demand would make it worthwhile to operate between 1 or 1:30 and 2am?

 

You don't want the drunks on the thing.  They won't respect it.  Ride the NYC subway at 3am and you'll see the sort of idiocy we can expect here.

 

I guess that is technically an answer to my question because you imply that no demand would make it worthwhile to operate that late.

How are people going to know after midnight (or whenever they stop running) that the streetcars aren't running?  Will there be electronic message boards? 

 

 

At at least 16 of the 18 stops there will be real time arrival displays. Not certain about Central Parkway and Washington Park (elm street side)