*Crazy idea time*

 

What about a transit bridge? One that doesn't require going so far off to either side and over two bridges and instead puts the river crossing on one bridge and then branches off once in Kentucky?

 

I like this idea, but I think that Clay Wade Bailey Taylor Southgate may already be that bridge.  The *best* place for such a bridge would be precisely where the Roebling is now, so that's out.  The approach to the TS from the west in KY should be drastically improved by the RT-9 re-route, so you could have all of the trains cross the TS, then turn east for Newport or Bellevue, or west at 4th for Covington routes. 

 

Race/Madison alignment is the only one that makes sense or could happen in my opinion. Anything further west would  be redundant with the Clay-Wade. Anything east of the Roebling would piss off the licking riverside historic district and mansion owners and couldn't happen, and anything landing at the Ovation site would be pretty redundant to the Taylor Southgate.

Forgetting Covington for a moment, I also like the idea of running a streetcar across the unused rail portion of the purple people bridge, then south down either Washington or Saratoga to 10th, and then north either Monmouth or York (assuming that York would be converted to 2-way, as Monmouth might).  That would put A LOT of densely populated neighborhood in the walkshed, plus the whole Monmouth business district and a bunch of great little businesses on the outskirts.

 

On the Ohio side, those tracks could continue on Eggleston, Culvert, or Butler, and then turn west at any point to overlap the current line.  That might make development of apartment towers possible on the sea of lots over there.  The line could go far enough to reach the Casino or Pendleton if you wanted.  Newport and Pendleton feel really far apart, but they're closer than you think because of the way the river bends.

I like the way you think. There's enough land for 10k people's worth of towers along Eggleston, at the base of the Purple People Bridge, and on lots a block away from Eggleston. That area could be something really awesome but it requires creative thinking and a streetcar line could work well.

I think we ought to think in terms of a new rail bridge at the base of Elm. Would require major land acquisition in Covington, but nothing in Cincinnati. Then extend the tracks up to 12th to meet the OTR streetcar. Elm Street bridge east of PBS probably can't carry rail without a rework.

Elm-Madison into Covington. Covington Line continues on Madison for a few miles. Newport line splits off on 4th and moves through Ovation to capture that potential and then continues on in some configuration either as an east-west line into Bellevue or south onto Monmouth. Or both.

Elm-Madison into Covington. Covington Line continues on Madison for a few miles. Newport line splits off on 4th and moves through Ovation to capture that potential and then continues on in some configuration either as an east-west line into Bellevue or south onto Monmouth. Or both.

 

Sounds about right, except Bill Butler probably won't let it anywhere near Ovation. Probably a new bridge across the Licking.

I'm not really well versed on the politics of NKY. Why would he not want it by the development?

I'm not really well versed on the politics of NKY. Why would he not want it by the development?

 

A long story.

If you could have dedicated lanes and perhaps signal priority for added speed on Second and Third in Cincinnati per ucgrady[/member] 's alignment, I don't understand the need to sell the public on the expense of constructing a new bridge.  If we could complete a project to Covington or Newport for something like $50- $100 million each, wouldn't that be a worthwhile goal, and more achievable?

 

The only advantage to a new transit bridge as described that I can see is if they are eventually going to completely rework the Cincinnati-side approaches to the Clay Wade Bailey (for BSB project) and/or the Taylor Southgate (to completely bury I-71 between FWW and Lytle Tunnel somehow.)

 

 

I'd only build a transit bridge if Kentucky were interested in using it to reach its suburbs. KY traffic engineers have always fought the idea of putting rail on the CWB because it acts as a reliever to the BSB when it is closed because of an incident.

That's a damn sexy urban pic!

 

Shawn Baker ‏@shawnbaker  1m1 minute ago

Closed. Full list, in 3 days. 1st MLS listing w photo of streetcar. #cincystreetcar http://goo.gl/XWti0w 

 

Maybe a gondola connection from Ovation to the lawn outside of Moerlein

I'd only build a transit bridge if Kentucky were interested in using it to reach its suburbs. KY traffic engineers have always fought the idea of putting rail on the CWB because it acts as a reliever to the BSB when it is closed because of an incident.

 

This post just me realize that when I said the CWB may already be our "transit bridge", I meant to say the Taylor-Southgate.  I have corrected my original post above.

Is a new bridge any more expensive than the additional trackwork necessary to get to the other two bridges and ripping said bridges up and rebuilding them with rail embedded in them?

Maybe a gondola connection from Ovation to the lawn outside of Moerlein

 

I know you're (most likely) kidding, but I just want to mention I think a gondola should only be considered when one end is completely isolated, i.e. there's no other adjacent place to go from there that would be easily served by another transit mode. I think the only place in the region that fits the bill is Mt. Adams. It's bounded to the south by the river, and every place to the north and east of it is more easily accessible via other routes.

There are approximately 0 people in NKY talking streetcar. They're going to have to want it and be willing to pay for it. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Too many Steve Franks running around and no meaningful citizen activists.

NKY seems to be even more corrupt and more willing to squander its assets than Cincinnati.  It is still in the "riverfront and hillside view" mindset that Cincinnati had in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.  Covington and Newport are two of the most historic and walkable cities in the United States, yet roughly 100 homes in the NKY river cities are currently on the market, 7 years after the housing collapse, for under $50,000. 

or the strip joint, troublesome nightclub and and sketchy casino mentality

Well how's that for timing? http://www.wcpo.com/news/region-northern-kentucky/panel-to-discuss-how-northern-kentucky-could-hop-aboard-streetcar-trend

I think NKY's big dilemma is which crossing and approaches can be built the cheapest.  My guess is that getting to Newport from the current tracks on either existing bridge will be significantly less expensive than getting to Covington via the Clay Wade Bailey or a new bridge.  It might be possible to build a line on Monmouth south to 12th and a 1-2 mile branch east to Bellevue and Dayton for less than the cost to simply get to the north shore of Covington.  But nobody really knows any of this without a professional study. 

 

 

 

I think NKY's big dilemma is which crossing and approaches can be built the cheapest.  My guess is that getting to Newport from the current tracks on either existing bridge will be significantly less expensive than getting to Covington via the Clay Wade Bailey or a new bridge.  It might be possible to build a line on Monmouth south to 12th and a 1-2 mile branch east to Bellevue and Dayton for less than the cost to simply get to the north shore of Covington.  But nobody really knows any of this without a professional study.

 

I think there should be additional Ohio side stops built out for either. For example, one near Paul Brown for the Covington route. One down near US Bank Arena for the Newport route (maybe closer to Sawyer Point if the PPB is used.) So Ohio should help with the cost of that.

Sure, I would assume that Cincinnati would pay the local portion of everything on the Ohio side, which would include approaches to the bridges and trackwork on the bridge to the Kentucky border, which is about 20-50 feet into the river.  Shared costs get a little tricky when it comes to paying for and maintaining the vehicles -- for example, does Kentucky pay for some of the maintenance of the maintenance facility?

There was an Interlocal Agreement between SORTA and TANK executed in 2001 which governs joint management of rail assets.

Would it be an option for NKY to build a standalone system with future river crossing in mind? Piecemeal approach, in other words.

Would it be an option for NKY to build a standalone system with future river crossing in mind? Piecemeal approach, in other words.

 

I suppose so, but it would be a lot more expensive because then you need two maintenance facilities, two sets of mechanics, two sets of drivers, separate fleets, etc.

 

 

Would it be an option for NKY to build a standalone system with future river crossing in mind? Piecemeal approach, in other words.

Sure, and that's the most probable scenario - one state, no bridge. Dunno about the ridership.

As for getting to Newport -- having streetcars travel down the Second St. ramp to Pete Rose Way would be problematic during big events on the riverfront.  That area often log jams for more than 30 minutes when events let out.  Also, Pete Rose Way is on the flood plain and so an at-grade connection to either the Taylor-Southgate or L&N bridges will flood every 20-30 years.  An aerial flyover ramp from Second and/or Third St. for the streetcar might not be feasible for the Taylor-Southgate Bridge because of the steep slope of its approach and the way the trusses cross the roadway.  An aerial structure connecting The Banks to the L&N Bridge would be a pretty lengthy and expensive solution, although it would be possible to put a station at the plaza level of U.S. Bank arena and possibly build a pedestrian/bike link between The Banks and the L&N Bridge. 

Maybe a dumb question but, could the east/west Cincinnati side of a NKY loop travel through the riverfront transit center to speed up travel times? You could have two stops, one by Paul Brown and one by Great American with access via the stairwells and better signage. From there you could connect pretty easily to Clay Wade on the west and Taylor Southgate at the east and that would avoid the traffic issues of big events and games.

 

EDIT: I just realized this would not allow for connection to the existing Cincy Streetcar loop and therefore present problems.

Maybe a dumb question but, could the east/west Cincinnati side of a NKY loop travel through the riverfront transit center to speed up travel times? You could have two stops, one by Paul Brown and one by Great American with access via the stairwells and better signage. From there you could connect pretty easily to Clay Wade on the west and Taylor Southgate at the east and that would avoid the traffic issues of big events and games.

 

EDIT: I just realized this would not allow for connection to the existing Cincy Streetcar loop and therefore present problems.

 

This may still be feasible if you had some service track not regularly used for the route to connect from the main Cincinnati loop to the Kentucky loop. The streetcars could use it once going to Kentucky loop in the morning and once coming home at night.

Four lots listed on Valencia St., right where a streetcar tunnel would emerge per John Schneider's concept. 

 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1476389/127-Valencia-St-Mt-Auburn-OH-45219

 

 

Here are two options for tying in Newport to the current streetcar loop (please forgive the amateurish route map).  Both utilize the L&N (purple people) bridge, which has a dedicated rail section just waiting for use.  Both also feature the same KY loop south on Washington to 10th, then north on Monmouth to 3rd, and back across the bridge.  This ties in NOTL, Hofbrau, the entire Monmouth Street business district, several bars and restaurants on/near Washington, and puts several others on York within the walkshed.  It's also walkable from the East Row Historic District and would jump start development/rehabbing on Saratoga, York, and further west.  It could operate as its own loop most of the time, but offer one seat trips from Newport to Findlay Market on weekends.

 

Once you get into Ohio, you can either:

 

A) Run north on Culvert to 8th, west to Main, then north on the existing Main Street track to Central Parkway, then South on Eggleston all the way to Pete Rose Way.  This version ties in the Casino, Greyhound, Fido Field dog park, touches OTR and Pendleton, and opens up the lots along Eggleston for redevelopment.

or

 

B) Run west on 3rd to Lytle Park, then west on 4th, then north on the existing Main Street track to 5th, then south on Pike.  This version has less development potential, but is much shorter and ties in Lytle Park, the Taft Museum of Art, the Taft Theater, Great American, W&S, P&G, and several other companies.

As romantic as it would be to use the rail span on the Purple People Bridge, I think Taylor Southgate would be the more direct option.

Pretty sure the engineers determined, during MetroMoves, that the Purple Bridge would need a major overhaul to carry modern rail. OTOH, exclusivity on the Purple Bridge would be terrific. Gets you further east too.

Pretty sure the engineers determined, during MetroMoves, that the Purple Bridge would need a major overhaul to carry modern rail. OTOH, exclusivity on the Purple Bridge would be terrific. Gets you further east too.

 

Bummer. I just assumed that since it formerly handled freight trains and automobiles, it could certainly take the weight of a 3 segment streetcar.

As romantic as it would be to use the rail span on the Purple People Bridge, I think Taylor Southgate would be the more direct option.

 

I'd be fine with that option as well.

Pretty sure the engineers determined, during MetroMoves, that the Purple Bridge would need a major overhaul to carry modern rail. OTOH, exclusivity on the Purple Bridge would be terrific. Gets you further east too.

 

Bummer. I just assumed that since it formerly handled freight trains and automobiles, it could certainly take the weight of a 3 segment streetcar.

No doubt about that. I'm sure they had iron steam engines go across it in the past.

Anyone know what type of trains they had in mind for MetroMoves?  It may be worth reanalyzing now that we have the exact specs of the Urbos3.

 

Pretty sure the engineers determined, during MetroMoves, that the Purple Bridge would need a major overhaul to carry modern rail. OTOH, exclusivity on the Purple Bridge would be terrific. Gets you further east too.

That sure is surprising. Would seem to suggest fatigue over the operational lifetime significantly limiting the acceptable loading compared to the design load. But it's unlikely this is anything more than an assumption or educated guess for a planning study.

Yes, I think the steel is not in great shape for heavy rolling loads.

Yes, I think the steel is not in great shape for heavy rolling loads.

 

Looks okay to me...  :evil:

At least they made sure that the paint evenly covered the broken parts.

Surprised about the PPB not being able to handle streetcar loads. It seems to me I've seen a 70's era color photograph of a big old train rolling up Eggleston Ave from the bridge.

 

The Eggleston/4th St Newport streetcar alignments above represent a trade off to ucgrady[/member] 's alignment where the Cincinnati, Covington, and Newport streetcars all meet at a certain point. The Eggleston alignment would be extremely useful for a specific user that needs to reach upper downtown Cincinnati from Newport, they could do it in 15 minutes. However in the alignment where they all meet at the Banks greatly expands the total territory (adding Covington) that could be reached by a general user from Newport via streetcar in 30 minutes lets say. For this reason and to maintain the simplicity of the system (three lines all meeting at a single point) I would be in favor of the alignment where they meet at the Banks.

^it's like they say when you wind up in a pickup football game... "the 70s were a long time ago"

I analyzed some times for ucgrady[/member] 's NKY streetcar alignment.

 

I estimated the streetcar loops in Covington and Newport at 8 mph, (about what slower bus route would be to account for its mixed traffic nature.)  For the Covington route, I estimated the bridge crossing and 2nd/3rd St Ohio-side portion to be 12 mph, to factor in if dedicated lanes and/or signal priority could be obtained. I didn’t make this distinction for the Newport route, since the Ohio side portion of that one would involve navigating complicated streets around US Bank Arena.   

 

This table shows what the headways could be if ran as 2 separate Covington and Newport routes, but also what it could be as a one-seat single ride in the "NKY Total" row. Running as a single NKY route would obviously save transfer time for Covington<->Newport travelers, but may also present a risk for problems in one part of the system spreading to affect the whole thing and streetcar bunching. 

 

 

What this means is: 

 

A Newport (Newport on the Levee)to Cincinnati (Vine St. OTR) bound traveler could ride Newport Streetcar 8 minutes, spend 6 minutes transferring to Cincinnati streetcar, ride Cincinnati streetcar 7 minutes for a total of a 21 minute trip

 

A Covington (Mainstrasse) to Newport (Newport on the Levee) bound traveler could ride the NKY streetcar 14.5 minutes for the total trip

 

A Cincinnati (Findlay Market) to Covington (Pike Street) bound traveler could ride the Cincinnati Streetcar 11.5 minutes, spend 6 minutes transferring to Covington streetcar, ride the Covington streetcar for 12.5 minutes for a total of a 30 minute trip

 

I assumed a 12 minute frequency and then took half of that for the (average) transfer times.

 

I think these times are feasible for these types of trips.  Not as fast as an Uber but less expensive, not as fast as a personal vehicle but you don’t have to worry about time and money for parking on both ends of them. 

 

My only suggestion for ucgrady[/member]'s route would be to go deeper into Covington (like 20th street if the streetcar can fit under the railroad bridge at 17th.)

 

^There are two issues with ucgrady's route that I think could be fixed with simple tweaks.  I'm ignoring bridges for now, because all of those options have their hangups.  So, assuming that one bridge to Covington and another to Newport have been chosen:

 

1) The route is great for a Cincinnati to NKY rider because it cuts deep into each NKY city's major business district.  However, the route isn't very useful for an NKY to Cincinnati rider because it just drops you off at Fort Washington Way.  At that point, if you aren't going to The Banks, you either have to transfer or walk across the unpleasant FWW canyon, then uphill a few blocks.  2nd, 3rd, and 4th northbound are the most unpleasant blocks to walk, so bridging those is critical.  If the route ran along 4th/5th or 5th/6th instead of 2nd/3rd, it would be far more useful as a commuting route from NKY.  In addition to most of the major employers, this would connect Duke Energy Center, Fountain Square, hotels, and Government Square, allowing the latter to become the nexus of the streetcar system, making transfers much simpler.  This would also maximize the streetcar's development impact by moving it away from the dead sides of 2nd/3rd/FWW, which may not ever be capped.

 

2) Based on thebillshark's numbers, I think you'd definitely want 2 separate loops, most likely sharing track on the Cincinnati side.  8.2 miles is really long for a single streetcar loop (phase 1 is only 3.6), and I think you're right about the length introducing unwanted headway variability.  Doing so would also allow the Newport loop to be just a tad longer, turning west at 9th/10th, which would put the majority of Newport's basin in the walkshed.

I really like that idea Jimmy_James[/member] . You'd be trading off some speed/time and adding distance but you'd be gaining a lot in return. The Government Square connection to Cincinnati's bus system would be huge. Also that would be serving western downtown and the convention center, in fact connecting Cincinnati's convention center with NKY's convention center (which has expansion potential if the IRS site were ever redeveloped) which would open interesting possibilities.

 

The old Dixie terminal was on Fourth Street. Maybe all this stuff has been figured out for us a long time ago after all.

I agree with Jimmy_James points, however I will say that I know quite a few people that do their monthly parking in the riverfront garage and walk that distance up to 5th/6th street everyday. Otherwise I made 2nd and 3rd the east/west because I though it had more development potential to help fill out the Banks. If we assume that will fill out anyway, I really like what you say about connecting the convention center, fountain square, government square and more of downtown if you used 4th/5th as your east west streets instead. 4th street is probably my favorite street in Cincinnati in terms of urban scale, and it would be cool to see a streetcar going down that narrow canyon, but 2nd and 3rd certainly have a wider ROW to fit a dedicated transit lane on. I think there are pro's and con's to each way, but I definitely see your point about connecting the two convention centers as well as connecting overnment square with TANK's Covington transit center.

 

(Also if there was a streetcar line suggested down 5th street everybody would be like "AHHH where would Octoberfest and Taste of Cincinnati be held!?")

^Yeah, there are definitely a lot of people that park and walk from The Banks' garage.  And I know some that walk from Newport and Covington to their offices downtown every day.  But one of the benefits of the Streetcar is that it makes the area more pedestrian friendly and offers better access for the disabled than walking or the bus.  I think 4th/5th achieves that goal in a way that 2nd/3rd does not.  Also, you could still have stops at either end of 2nd, which would serve The Banks well.