Interesting article from Munich's newspaper.  in 2015 there were 160 incidents of parked cars blocking Trams.  There are 49 miles of tramway in Munich.  By this reckoning, Cincinnati could see 12 incidents per year -- once the driving population grows accustomed to parking near trams.  I'd wager it'll be higher at the beginning.

 

Is towing going to be handled by the city or some predatory private towing company?

 

google translated article:

http://tinyurl.com/jkohutq

 

 

^ If it's the city then I'd be worried about someone like Cranley putting out a directive to "not hurry too much" to try to make the streetcar look bad.  In that case I'd rather an over-zealous private company handle the task because at least it would be done in a timely manner. 

^I'm looking forward to the first video of a blocked streetcar laying on that crazy horn until a frantic driver comes running out of a bakery or something.

Interesting article from Munich's newspaper.  in 2015 there were 160 incidents of parked cars blocking Trams.  There are 49 miles of tramway in Munich.  By this reckoning, Cincinnati could see 12 incidents per year -- once the driving population grows accustomed to parking near trams.  I'd wager it'll be higher at the beginning.

Well, maybe, but honestly those white lines are soooo generous that you'd have to be a really terrible parallel parker in order to exceed them. If I were that far away from the curb, I'd be thinking about getting clipped by a car going by, let alone a streetcar.

There will be a few total dumb@$$es who park directly on the tracks because they have no idea what they are. Two weekends ago during a Bengals game, I saw someone parked on the tracks on Main between 3rd and 4th, where there are also a bunch of "no parking any time" signs and "right lane: streetcar only" signs. I really hope they got towed.

I'll be curious how snow removal goes when we have a 25 year event.

 

By far, the bigger problem is the icing of the wires.

It has been suggested in the past that 1 streetcar might continue to circle the loop overnight (out of service) to prevent the wires from icing. Is that still expected to be the case?

That doesn't always seem to work, but it's worth a try. Another problem is freezing switches, but I think John Deatrick told me that we had switch warmers.

Is it possible for a pantograph to be disconnected electrically even when it's raised to engage the wire?  In these double-end cars with a pantograph on both ends, could the (normally down) front pantograph be raised in order to break apart the ice on the wire, while the rear one is used to actually power the car, so that arcing is minimized?

Is it possible for a pantograph to be disconnected electrically even when it's raised to engage the wire?  In these double-end cars with a pantograph on both ends, could the (normally down) front pantograph be raised in order to break apart the ice on the wire, while the rear one is used to actually power the car, so that arcing is minimized?

I'm guessing that's what they do, running at low speed

In Chicago with Metra Trains small fires are set on the switches to warm them up.  Looks like NYC does the same on their commuter trains, they look cool (though I'm not sure if it is the right solution for a streetcar):

 

http://i.imgur.com/2XZwOn1.jpg

 

 

When snow gets really bad on the CTA they attach a snowplow to the front of the train.  I'm pretty sure the streetcar can do similar quite easily:

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/misc_images/inline_winter_plowblades.jpg

I was in Daytons RTA garage one time and a guy showed me a sharp heavy metal thing called an ice cutter. They mount them at the top of a standard electric pick up trolley pole to cut the ice off trolleybus lines. It's copper so the device is conductive drawing in the current while its scraping ice. I gotta think the ice problem has been around for over a century and hundreds of other cities have worked on it, so I googled the ice question relative to Toronto, which btw has hundreds of streetcars in service every day. I found a story 'bout guys going around in pickup trucks knocking down ice with sticks? WTF gimmie a break! Anyway, Dayton and Toronto have electric transit based on trolley poles, not pantographs, so I'm gonna do some Google research to find out what Russian systems do (hundreds of streetcar cities and all with pantographs). Anyway, couple of things to keep the problem in perspective...ice creates havoc with any transportation system, so electric transit advocates don't own the 'ice problem' and, frozen switches and frozen air or hydraulic lines are the worst problem so I gotta think the freight railroads have some solutions.

I was in Daytons RTA garage one time and a guy showed me a sharp heavy metal thing called an ice cutter. They mount them at the top of a standard electric pick up trolley pole to cut the ice off trolleybus lines. It's copper so the device is conductive drawing in the current while its scraping ice. I gotta think the ice problem has been around for over a century and hundreds of other cities have worked on it, so I googled the ice question relative to Toronto, which btw has hundreds of streetcars in service every day. I found a story 'bout guys going around in pickup trucks knocking down ice with sticks? WTF gimmie a break! Anyway, Dayton and Toronto have electric transit based on trolley poles, not pantographs, so I'm gonna do some Google research to find out what Russian systems do (hundreds of streetcar cities and all with pantographs). Anyway, couple of things to keep the problem in perspective...ice creates havoc with any transportation system, so electric transit advocates don't own the 'ice problem' and, frozen switches and frozen air or hydraulic lines are the worst problem so I gotta think the freight railroads have some solutions.

 

Philly has streetcars and their heavy rail uses overhead wires (massive commuter system with overhead wires as well).  Might be another good place to look.  Parts of Japan too (Russia might not be so good because they are significantly poorer and more dysfunctional as a whole).

I read somewhere that catenary/pantographs run with less pressure than trolley wire/trolley poles.  That seemed counter-intuitive to me, but ok.  I can see the trolley wire flexing a lot more regardless, especially in a historical span-wire setup like you see in Dayton, making it easier for ice to be dislodged just from the wire bending and moving, compared to catenary which doesn't move as much.

Kinda Ironic this thread was started  in the same month(Sept) the streetcar will beginning running 10 years ago.

Kinda Ironic this thread was started  in the same month(Sept) the streetcar will beginning running 10 years ago.

 

Planning for the first phase of the Portland Streetcar began in 1991. It opened in 2001.

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1477136/1437-Elm-St-City-OH-45202

 

20x70 empty lot on Elm St. sale pending on a $92,000 listing price.  These types of lots were selling for less than the title transfer 10 years ago. 

I drew out a few different alignments from our NKY streetcar discussion earlier:

 

First, the basic alignment based off ucgrady[/member] 's map.  On these maps, streetcars stopping at "a" stops are traveling clockwise on the map and the "b" stop streetcars are going counterclockwise.

 

 

Next here are two alternative alignments for how an NKY streetcar could travel through Cincinnati.  (Non-the Banks alignments suggested by Jimmy_James[/member] ) Using 4th and 5th, it's possible to nicely align to Cincinnati Streetcar stops and Government Square buses: 

 

 

5th and 6th (this one is on both sides of the Cincinnati convention center. Perhaps they could work with the NKY convention center in Covington to hold big events split between the two locations if they were connected by streetcar): 

 

 

Next, here are some alternate alignments for NKY.  2nd/3rd street Cincinnati alignment is shown, but could paired with any other Cincinnati alignment above.  First, a loop as suggested by taestell[/member] .  Streetcars stopping at "a" stops are traveling clockwise on the map and the "b" stop streetcars are going counterclockwise, with no endpoints.

 

 

Finally, with extensions going deep into Covington and Newport.  A word of caution here, I don’t know if a streetcar can really fit underneath the 17th street rail bridge in Covington, probably not without some accommodation.  A westward Newport extension spur is also shown:

 

 

Whew, long post! Please don't "quote" the whole thing!

Couple of observations.

 

Almost certain Cincinnati traffic engineers won't let us use Ramp "LL" - the downward-sloping extension of Second Street east of Main. It clogs up during a lot of riverfront events.

 

The 4th/5th and 5th/6th pairs work nicely, but I've heard in the past the ODOT and FHWA don't want streetcars on streets that lead to freeway entrances or exits. Having said that, i could definitely see streetcars on Fourth - just feels like a streetcar street to me.

 

From what I'm hearing, NKY favors connecting its two river cities closer to the river instead of penetrating deeper into close-in southern neighborhoods as you are showing. The Fourth Street bridge connecting Covington and Newport is scheduled for replacement in a few years, and they would like to make it wide enough to host a streetcar line. Not sure that's the right thing to do if their objective is repopulation like ours was in Cincinnati, but that's what they are thinking.

 

 

Couple of observations.

The 4th/5th and 5th/6th pairs work nicely, but I've heard in the past the ODOT and FHWA don't want streetcars on streets that lead to freeway entrances or exits. Having said that, i could definitely see streetcars on Fourth - just feels like a streetcar street to me.

 

Seems like that would rule out 2nd and 3rd as well.  But the streetcar is already on 2nd, so maybe this has changed?

 

From what I'm hearing, NKY favors connecting its two river cities closer to the river instead of penetrating deeper into close-in southern neighborhoods as you are showing. The Fourth Street bridge connecting Covington and Newport is scheduled for replacement in a few years, and they would like to make it wide enough to host a streetcar line. Not sure that's the right thing to do if their objective is repopulation like ours was in Cincinnati, but that's what they are thinking.

 

Hopefully they'll change their mind at some point after Phase 1 opens.  Newport and Covington need streetcar lines down Monmouth and Madison much more than they need to be connected to each other.  I do like the AB rotation, though; I just don't want NKY's streetcar line to be solely a "southbank shuttle replacement".

 

Their tax structure wants jobs, not residents.  That's why NKY remains obsessed with their riverfronts, at the expense of residents in the established neighborhoods. 

 

I bike down there at least twice per months.  There is hardly ever any traffic (pedestrian or vehicular) whatsoever on the rebuilt 12th St. bridge.  Yet Steven Frank and others are obsessed with tearing down more of 12th St. in Covington to create a wider link to I-75's 12th St. exit.  That traffic is simply not going to increase when and if the bulldozers succeed in tearing down 3-4 more historic blocks. 

NKY Streetcar interview-

 

http://wvxu.org/post/leaders-discuss-reviving-streetcar-system-northern-kentucky#stream/0

^-They could have done a better job addressing the second guy's concerns about why the streetcar was needed such as how the ride is nicer and how more people tend to ride streetcars and what not.

Pat and Mike are great guys but certainly aren't spokesmen on the subject like John.

check out this site: http://www.nkystreetcar.com/

That's a tiny first phase but is something. I worry though that the cost of that first phase in terms of the potential return is pretty high. I feel if you're going to get over a bridge you need to extend further into NKY to make that investment worth it quick enough for the public to understand why it was a good use of public money.

That's a tiny first phase but is something. I worry though that the cost of that first phase in terms of the potential return is pretty high. I feel if you're going to get over a bridge you need to extend further into NKY to make that investment worth it quick enough for the public to understand why it was a good use of public money.

 

From their presentation the expansion plan is to follow the new KY 9 to the new 4th street bridge and into covington.

 

Here's the route more or less

 

That's a tiny first phase but is something. I worry though that the cost of that first phase in terms of the potential return is pretty high. I feel if you're going to get over a bridge you need to extend further into NKY to make that investment worth it quick enough for the public to understand why it was a good use of public money.

 

I had the same thought. I think the potential ridership of a streetcar just crossing the Ohio River is very low. You have to already be along the river at a specific bridge to get on.

 

I would probably rather see a line going deeper into Newport and then connect it later. Potential development along the route is almost $0.

But I'm glad the discussion is starting

That's a tiny first phase but is something. I worry though that the cost of that first phase in terms of the potential return is pretty high. I feel if you're going to get over a bridge you need to extend further into NKY to make that investment worth it quick enough for the public to understand why it was a good use of public money.

 

From their presentation the expansion plan is to follow the new KY 9 to the new 5th street (4th street?) bridge and into covington.

 

I feel like that definitely needs to be funded alongside their "phase 1" in order to be able to garner support for this.

At least there would be minimal utility relocation along the route, given that most of it is on a bridge. The coordination and relocation of utilities seemed to be one of the major cost and schedule items for the first phase in Cincinnati.

It definitely seems like it should go deeper into Newport and cross into Covington on the 11th/12th Street bridge. By crossing into Newport, having 1 stop, and then immediately turning to get to Covington, it seems like there is very little development potential except for the riverfront, which already has high development potential anyway.

It definitely seems like it should go deeper into Newport and cross into Covington on the 11th/12th Street bridge. By crossing into Newport, having 1 stop, and then immediately turning to get to Covington, it seems like there is very little development potential except for the riverfront, which already has high development potential anyway.

 

Sure, but this would just be a phase 1 leg right?  Seems like getting it over the river would be the priority.

The route that actually extends over to Covington is a really good starter route. It hits both cities, has stops by some areas that could see some pretty substantial redevelopment, and opens up easy extension into both Newport and Covington.

I imagine we will be seeing more about a NKY streetcar. I think I'm going to create a NKY Streetcar thread. Anyone opposed?

Well I would assume that with the extension, it would still operate as one system. So I don't know that a second thread makes sense. Maybe we will end up with an "A loop" and "B loop" where only one goes into Kentucky, but I think it would still be called the Cincinnati Streetcar.

^I'm thinking that we don't even know if this will be an extension. If it happens, it might be a separate system operated by TANK and with no connection to the Cincinnati side. We don't have to make it a separate topic, I just think we are going to have two completely different discussions depending on what we are talking about (operations of Cincy Streetcar vs. proposals for NKY streetcar).

^Agreed.  Otherwise we're going to get really far afield with route and funding proposals for something that may or may not ever happen, intermingled with legitimate news about the current system.

Depends on if we want this thread to get to 1,000 pages or not... Just kidding it will probably get there either way!

I dunno. I think if you're seeing this page in terms of a generational path to regional light rail, I'd keep the NKY news in here. I told them today that Cincinnati rail supporters are focused on getting the streetcar to Uptown - nothing more, nothing less.

That's a tiny first phase but is something. I worry though that the cost of that first phase in terms of the potential return is pretty high. I feel if you're going to get over a bridge you need to extend further into NKY to make that investment worth it quick enough for the public to understand why it was a good use of public money.

 

From their presentation the expansion plan is to follow the new KY 9 to the new 4th street bridge and into covington.

 

Here's the route more or less

 

 

Wow.  This is the nightmare route.  Just a note for Cincinnatians that don't follow NKY politics... the NKY communities don't really get along.  It's a collection of fiefdoms that only unite when they oppose Cincinnati.  This goes for the cities, but also for Boone, Kenton, and Campbell counties as well. 

 

Newport is the obvious choice for an initial phase into NKY due to the condition and location of its bridges, its smaller footprint, and its location between Covington and Bellevue, but Newport doesn't have the ability to pull this off without Covington.  However, Covington as the much larger city can't just allow that to happen, so they appear to have compromised by having an initial route that touches both cities but serves neither very well.  That, or substitute Campbell and Kenton counties for their premiere cities in the same equation.

 

I really hope that the streetcar makes it over to NKY, but this is not the way.  Here's hoping that they do a feasibility study that strongly suggests another route, and that they listen.

To me, NKY needs to have a process for identifying over-reaching community objectives and then scoring whether a streetcar could help them meet the most important objective. For Cincinnati, the objective  was repopulation -- the first sentence of the Executive Summary of the 2007 B/C Study stated the objective was reinvestment and repopulation of the core and we never wavered from that. And we are way ahead of the 2011 projections for development, which is where 82% of the benefits are.

 

If I lived in NKY and my objective were repopulation, I might suggest routes similar to what Bill is putting up here. If it were tourism, I might do something similar to what they have laid out but go west to Bellevue. If the objective were improving regional transportation, I'd focus on LRT through Covington to Florence to CVG. Say.

^^The Newport section of this route is moronic.  The streetcar clearly needs to come from the bridge straight up York and then branch off toward Covington one way on 4th and the other way on 5th.  The reason the Cincinnati Streetcar will be so successful is because it does a great job of connecting important institutions (Findlay Market, Music Hall, Washington Park, Hamilton County Courthouse, U.S. Courthouse, the Ballpark) with plenty of developable lots.  By taking an immediate left after the bridge, the Newport route misses going by the Campbell County Courthouse and the World Peace Bell (which, while sort of silly, has the potential to be the Fountain Square of Newport).  The key thing is to make sure these routes go by both the Campbell County Courthouse and the Kenton County Courthouse.  Those are major employment anchors that are never going to move on a whim like a corporate headquarters (such as Omnicare) or an entertainment district might.  They are critical for ensuring the success of the system.

 

While the best route would certainly penetrate further south into Kentucky before going Covington, I believe that simply getting the system into Kentucky over the right bridge (and the Taylor-Southgate Bridge is the bridge that makes the most sense) creates buy in from these communities to the very idea of transit, which is frankly the most important thing.  Once the system is in place and in use, Covington and Newport can separately build out their networks south to connect other areas.

Doesn't serve any of the NKY strip clubs.  Back to the drawing board. 

^What a ridiculous comment; Club Venus is at 12 E 5th St in Covington. ;-)

I agree that in Newport it needs to extend to 4th and 5th streets and I also think it should extend all the way to mainstrasse as that is a major point for both entertainment and residential. To me this alignment is only concerned about two things; developing the Corporex Ovation site, and developing Covington's downtown including the vacant lots and the old jail.

Ovation's developer, Bill Butler, is a longtime rail opponent. Interesting to see how this plays out.

From Thomas Humes, UC Board of Trustees Chairman

 

"For those who hope the university will help fund an Uptown extension, “I don’t think that’s in the cards,” Humes said. “I don’t know where we’d get the money to help support it. Obviously the streetcar is an expensive thing to do.”

 

This was in the context of UC moving some of its programs to Downtown -- http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2016/01/22/uc-move-to-the-banks-would-increase-presence-in.html

 

In the rest of that article, there's talk of a still premature grand plan for UC to have a major presence at the Banks. It would be very expensive, of course, and the transportation issues between the Clifton campus and downtown are obvious. I just don't understand Humes statement in that context. Of course, it could just be a negotiating position.