It would be a great idea for metro to park a streetcar at those two locations for Opening Day. Cars can't use the lanes anyways, so might as well showcase the region's first rail transportation in 65 years!

As most people in the general public are not aware these are transit only lanes, and coupled with the crowds/traffic associated with opening day, I could see people being livid that the streetcars were parked and 'taking up space for cars'. Even though 2nd and 3rd were designed extra wide to accommodate rail, the average person is not aware of this and would see them sitting in the lanes as 'blocking traffic'.

It almost seems like it would be better if they painted red stripes across the transit lanes or maybe yellow to really get people to understand.  That may look bad on the ground though, but all those stripes could be confusing to a lot of people

Those lanes are typically overtaken by people dropping off and picking people up, including Uber/Lyft drivers.  That happens along the entire length of that street in that southernmost lane. 

As most people in the general public are not aware these are transit only lanes, and coupled with the crowds/traffic associated with opening day, I could see people being livid that the streetcars were parked and 'taking up space for cars'. Even though 2nd and 3rd were designed extra wide to accommodate rail, the average person is not aware of this and would see them sitting in the lanes as 'blocking traffic'.

 

I agree, a would worry about a side-swipe, but maybe one on the walnut street overpass would be ok since the prior intersection is a right turn only lane.

About DC streetcar...

 

7 things Washington DC's $200m streetcar taught us about public transport

 

http://www.citymetric.com/transport/7-things-washington-dcs-200m-streetcar-taught-us-about-public-transport-1962

 

Come on.  That short streetcar line is intended to be part of a very large network of 30+ miles.  Their first segment didn't get built in their downtown because the subway is already there.  If the system is built-out and they can stop running buses, they will have operational savings.

 

Whoa!  Don't shoot the messenger. I saw it and thought it would spur discussion. Most of the DC coverage I've seen has had a negative bias.

Re: displaying streetcar in opening day, I think you might have as many people saying "why the hell isn't it ready yet" as you would have people thinking it was cool. Maybe better to have it testing on a weekend with nice weather with lots of people out so people can at least see it moving.

I heard that they might also install white bollards on the double-solid white lines (similar to the Central Parkway bike lanes). Does anyone know if that's still the plan?

 

I sure hope not. That would be overkill.

 

I hope not as well.  People are going to make some mistakes, especially early on.  If there are bollards in place, then drivers can't correct their mistake by leaving the transit-only lane when they realize they shouldn't be there.  Also, it could be interpreted by those not in the know as some sort of safety measure that could erroneously make the streetcar seem dangerous.  The painted lines should be enough.  Also, they look great and are an improvement over just having that odd streetcar logo.

People are almost certainly extra complacent about it right now because they know it's not actually in-use yet.

About DC streetcar...

 

7 things Washington DC's $200m streetcar taught us about public transport

 

http://www.citymetric.com/transport/7-things-washington-dcs-200m-streetcar-taught-us-about-public-transport-1962

 

Come on.  That short streetcar line is intended to be part of a very large network of 30+ miles.  Their first segment didn't get built in their downtown because the subway is already there.  If the system is built-out and they can stop running buses, they will have operational savings.

 

Whoa!  Don't shoot the messenger. I saw it and thought it would spur discussion. Most of the DC coverage I've seen has had a negative bias.

 

Sorry, I was rolling my eyes at the writer, not you for posting it.  The Washington project has really become the whipping boy of the genre.  It's inevitable that if 25 new short streetcar systems are built around the country, 2 or 3 of them are going to be lousy.  A lot of that could stem from building phase 2 or 3 before phase 1.  That's exactly what happened in Seattle. 

 

The writer completely ignores that the #1 ROI light rail line in the country, Houston's Main St. light rail line, has absolutely huge per-mile ridership and all it did was replace an existing bus line.  It would be like if Cleveland had built the Health Line as light rail instead of BRT.  Clearly there is merit in building streetcars or light rail in place of existing bus service. 

 

 

http://www.go-metro.com/news/654/58/Cincinnati-s-Streetcar-on-Display-on-Red-s-Opening-Day

 

It will be stationed at the Elm Street stop in front of Music Hall for the Parade

The best point that article does bring up however is the advantage of dedicated lanes.  I'm concerned with the streetcar that might be difficult to implement given its geometry.

Skyhouse tower developer promises up to $166,000 annually to streetcar operations:

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2016/04/01/panel-oks-90m-riverfront-apartment-tower-concept/82477788/

For anyone hoping to catch a glimpse of a streetcar, it's going to become a lot easier starting next week. Two streetcars will be testing 8 hrs per day starting next week, and "simulated service" (where the streetcars will operate on their normal schedule and stop at all stops) will begin in August.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/01/with-final-streetcar-set-to-arrive-soon-cincinnati.html

In Portland the original MAX light rail line travels in a lane paved with fairly rough stone.  So it's still a functional lane, but it discourages cars from traveling in it. 

 

Historically, streetcars offered a smoother ride than automobiles because the streetcars travelled on rails while automobiles travelled on streets paved with stone or brick. When these stone or brick streets became paved with asphalt, not only did automobiles become more comfortable, but they also became faster, and caused more accidents.

Frank Marzullo made sure to point out on the FOX19 morning news that the streetcar line is affecting the opening day parade by making them have to have floats less than 14 ft tall and have tires that can play nice with the tracks running down Race St. No other logistical information, and non-sequitur for the news segment. The sniping never ends....

...unless you're using bicycle wheels in what world is that a problem?

 

And what was the height limit before? Because the streetcar wires aren't any lower than several pieces of infrastructure along the route that already existed.

 

Can this generation of naysayers just die off so those who actually want to think ahead can take over? (yes I know that's harsh but it's growing really old hearing all this whining still).

Exactly! I can't imagine the height limit was much higher than 14 ft to begin with.

14'-0" of overhead clearance is the standard federal rule for local streets. I'd be surprised if floats were ever allowed to be over 14'-0" before. I was under the impression that wires and street lights were typically set pretty close to 14'-0" above the roadway (which is why so many had to be relocated for the project).

Frank Marzullo made sure to point out on the FOX19 morning news that the streetcar line is affecting the opening day parade by making them have to have floats less than 14 ft tall and have tires that can play nice with the tracks running down Race St. No other logistical information, and non-sequitur for the news segment. The sniping never ends....

 

Fox 19 is the worst. They used to have a commercial for Fox 19 News that included a montage of big local stories, and of course, it included a clip of a reporter saying "the controversial streetcar project". This commercial would play during just about every commercial break while you were watching anything on Fox 19. Imagine the impact on ordinary people who don't pay attention to the details, just hear over and over and over again ... "the controversial streetcar project ... the controversial streetcar project ... the controversial streetcar project."

Hopefully we can keep seeing some positive supportive articles like this come out of the local media:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/contributors/2016/04/04/opinion-streetcar-can-enhance-downtown-events/82523764/

Ramped-up testing begins at noon today.

Anyone have videos or pictures from today's testing?

Anyone have videos or pictures from today's testing?

 

I saw some people posting on Facebook.  The streetcars look really good running around Washington Park. They will really add to the sense of activity in the park. 

 

 

 

Will Metro buses be allowed to utilize the streetcar stops? I hope they do, since they are vastly nicer than their regular stops (outside of Govt Square)

Will Metro buses be allowed to utilize the streetcar stops? I hope they do, since they are vastly nicer than their regular stops (outside of Govt Square)

 

I doubt that the stops could be used with the buses unless the boarding height is the same as the streetcar.  If it were higher or lower on the bus that could present a problem.

The streetcar stops are too high for the buses to use.

The streetcar stops are too high to be used with the wheelchair ramps on the buses. KC's platforms are the same as ours in the center height but lower on either side to accommodate buses. The downside of their approach is that wheelchairs can only board in the center two doors on their cars (then again that's where the wheelchair area is on the cars, so that makes sense, but for strollers, shopping carts, etc it creates a step up)

I rode the old St. Charles streetcar in New Orleans for the fist time after having visited the city over 10 times.  They have a ton of vintage streetcars operating on this line, probably at least 20, so one comes along about every five minutes. 

 

The streetcars were packed with riders and so the streetcars had to keep passing stations since there was no room.  What was so telling though was that at each stop the driver would open the door and yell to the people who couldn't fit on the streetcar that "there are also buses".  So apparently there is a city bus that runs pretty much the same route on the same street, but nobody wanted to take it, or was seemingly aware that it existed. 

Just realized that April 29th is the 65th and final anniversary of the end of streetcar service in Cincinnati

Just realized that April 29th is the 65th and final anniversary of the end of streetcar service in Cincinnati

 

Yes, and we'll be having an un-retirement party in September

I like how the new image drawing for liberty and elm show the street car.

 

 

 

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Wow that looks pretty good.  I read that article Billshark sent on fine grained urbanism vs. coarse grained.  This is a pretty good example of fine grained urbanism where they break up the monotony of one large building.  It could always be better but this looks better than a lot of stuff you see like USqare, in my opinion

No no, fine-graied urbanism is when the buildings actually ARE separate, built by different people and different designers on small lots sold individually.  Coarse-grained is when the whole block is developed by one person/company.  Even if it's made to look like smaller buildings, that's just a facade which belies the true nature of the complex.  It's the difference between OTR and U-Square.

I think the author of that piece used the term "faux grained" to describe something like this. Its course grained because it's done by a single developer/owner/manager, but it's trying to visually emulate fine grained by being made to look like separate buildings.

 

I'm ok for proceeding with something like this. Its important to get started. It adds density. Even if the architecture is criticized, once Liberty is narrowed there will probably be four or five more chances for new construction along Liberty.

 

By the way are there more renderings of this project available somewhere?

Happy to report that there were no cars in the transit only line on 2nd Street after the Reds game today.

I think the author of that piece used the term "faux grained" to describe something like this. Its course grained because it's done by a single developer/owner/manager, but it's trying to visually emulate fine grained by being made to look like separate buildings.

 

I'm ok for proceeding with something like this. Its important to get started. It adds density. Even if the architecture is criticized, once Liberty is narrowed there will probably be four or five more chances for new construction along Liberty.

 

By the way are there more renderings of this project available somewhere?

 

April 15 packet:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/apr-15-2016-packet/

 

Driving home from the Billy Joel concert the other night, we passed the Streetcar in action. It was actually pretty cool to see in use, even though it was not open for riders yet.

How crap that's sexy. I like the infusion of new and old. Doesn't look completely out of place in OTR, yet brings a healthy mix of "21st Century OTR" as well.

 

Good job to the developers for making legit, proper infill that doesn't look like regurgitated dog crap that has no understanding of proper OTR infill.

The faux fine grain only seems applied to the floors above the ground floor. The ground floor is one articulated horizontal mass when it should have a fine grain vertical rhythm. Particularly the bit closer to Liberty along Elm.

 

Try again, please.

Those elevations concern me deeply. This is literally U Square/The Banks/The Gantry/generic building #37. Right down to the mix of non-Cincy colored brick selections that were made for U Square and The Banks.

 

Our historic guidelines need an overhaul. Because they force crap like this to happen. There's no reason we should force large buildings to look like a series of small buildings when we have historic precedent in OTR/Pendleton for buildings of this street frontage fitting in quite well. If we're trying to match a graining that already existed we should be looking to those buildings, not the small, individual lot buildings of which this has no relation to.

I don't know, on paper this looks better than U-Square and everything else to my eyes.  But maybe I am wrong, I am not an architect so I don't see in the eyes of architects. 

 

Here are the renderings for U-Square on this blog:

 

http://nateenglanddesign.blogspot.com/2012/05/project-snapshot-u-square.html

 

I guess it depends on the materials as well.  I have no idea, but would they use a high quality brick?  Maybe put brick in between the glass entrances instead of what looks like poured concrete walls?  Or maybe brick up all the portions that look like concrete walls in the rendering and that would look better. 

 

But honestly to me, this looks like a better rendering than what was for U-Square, but like i said, maybe I am all wrong.  I do agree though that U-Square does look cheap.  Whatever the building is across the street, the long and tall all brick building, looks so much better

 

Edit: I looked through the packet and just had a few more observations to my untrained eye and maybe one of the architects can chime in:

 

How do you incorporate so much glass with brick and walls?  Is that even possible?  Would it look better if it was all glass at this point?  I understand they want to break up the monotony with different colored brick, but it just looks bad with the poured concrete wall, then brick, then more poured concrete, then glass.  Obviously, they need to make it within their budget and within their investors (owners) profit margin to make it feasible for them, but how much more would it cost to make it overall more uniform?  After looking at it more, it seems like even how 84.51 is, with uniform color and texture throughout even with the big poured concrete pillars, is better infill than this which looks like it is trying to do enough to fit in but it doesn't go all the way, if that makes sense?

Well this hasn't been approved by the HCB yet. I'm sure they'll have some aspects they will need to fix.

The problem isn't certain "aspects" of it though. It's the entire thing that's a problem. The entire premise of making larger buildings look like a series of smaller buildings is one that I will never support and results in garbage being built. The HCB's requirements are precisely why we wind up with things that look like this. It shouldn't be taking massing/graining precedent from its single-lot neighbors, it should be taking precedent from things like the SCPA, the Art Academy, Rhinegeist's building, the various old industrial buildings on McMicken, the large residential building at Main and Orchard, The Rothenberg Academy, the Apex Furniture building, any of the number of buildings along Central Parkway, etc. Those are buildings that should serve as historic precedent for how to handle the integration of a larger, more horizontal building into the urban fabric of OTR.

^^ They are applying for (and will likely be granted) a "planned development" designation for this project. That means that HCB will weigh in, but only advisory to the planning commission, which has the final say and can ignore the HCB if they wish.

 

I'm with jmicha[/member] on wanting a "whole building" with quality design, and not needing it make it look like separate buildings (because it never will). Maybe instead of "fine grained" and "coarse grained" urbanism that could just be called, I don't know,... architecture. Thing is, the HCB guidelines do need to be rewritten, but there will be major opposition within the community to do that. For example this building has actually been made smaller (shorter) because of opposition forces that think this is too massive, too tall, not sufficiently respectful of the Italianate style, etc. And, here's an example where, if the developers really wanted to, they could try to push the envelope because since it's going to be PD zoning, they don't *have to* satisfy HCB guidelines.

Haha, I think I am starting to understand this architecture stuff better.  I understand completely what you are saying now.

The problem isn't certain "aspects" of it though. It's the entire thing that's a problem. The entire premise of making larger buildings look like a series of smaller buildings is one that I will never support and results in garbage being built. The HCB's requirements are precisely why we wind up with things that look like this. It shouldn't be taking massing/graining precedent from its single-lot neighbors, it should be taking precedent from things like the SCPA, the Art Academy, Rhinegeist's building, the various old industrial buildings on McMicken, the large residential building at Main and Orchard, The Rothenberg Academy, the Apex Furniture building, any of the number of buildings along Central Parkway, etc. Those are buildings that should serve as historic precedent for how to handle the integration of a larger, more horizontal building into the urban fabric of OTR.

 

I could not agree more, this granularization waters down the historical significance of its neighbors.  It's fake facades lifted off the street do not help make the building attractive, nor do they help its inner program. 

The HCB has to change its rules so that buildings are not made to fit in but made to compliment and accentuate their historic neighbors.  This would open up the quality of design and design solutions and lead to a much better result per building and neighborhood.

 

(imagine that if that were the goal we would end up with stuff like this at 8th & Main instead of the weird "modern" panelization presented last month.

)

So... streetcars....

Here's an article to get us back on track. September first might be the opening date! 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/11/heres-when-the-streetcar-could-open-how-the-budget.html

 

 

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Enquirer ‏@Enquirer  now13 seconds ago

Council approves $4.2M to operate streetcar: http://cin.ci/23yyrOc