Yeah, that is exactly the type of deal Metro should be making. Since we're not just going to make the streetcar free for the first year like some other cities are doing, they should be making agreements like this that will increase ridership even if they don't bring in an enormous amount of money. I still wish that one of the Fortune 500 companies would step up and sponsor the streetcar and pay for the whole system to be free for the first month or year.

Atlanta's streetcar is in some serious trouble. Hope we have done the proper planning and due dilligence to avoid these type of issues.

 

State Threatens to Close Atlanta Streetcar

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local-govt-politics/state-threatens-to-close-atlanta-streetcar/nrTt3/

Atlanta's streetcar is in some serious trouble. Hope we have done the proper planning and due dilligence to avoid these type of issues.

 

State Threatens to Close Atlanta Streetcar

http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local-govt-politics/state-threatens-to-close-atlanta-streetcar/nrTt3/

 

We're fine. Atlanta's had a troubled project for the get-go. Poorly conceived, poorly executed and poorly managed. Other than that, it's a great project.

Meanwhile in Kansas City...

 

The system so far has tallied 128,760 rider trips and is averaging more than 6,400 trips per day, according to figures provided Thursday to the Streetcar Authority board of directors.

 

“The numbers have far exceeded where we thought we would start,” Tom Gerend, Streetcar Authority executive director, told the board. He said original projections were for an average of 2,700 riders per day.

 

And here's the interesting part...

 

Because ridership has been so high, the Streetcar Authority board said it also would explore the idea of purchasing a fifth vehicle for its fleet.

 

Remember that Kansas City piggybacked on Cincinnati's order. When Cincinnati placed our order for five streetcars, the contract also included options for many more streetcars. Kansas City purchased four of our options. So if they want a matching fifth streetcar, they would presumably buy another one of our options. I'm not sure how much money would be involved, but hopefully that would be a decent chunk that we could put into our first year operations or studies for future streetcar phases.

Think we need another stop near 12th and Elm

Meanwhile in Kansas City...

 

The system so far has tallied 128,760 rider trips and is averaging more than 6,400 trips per day, according to figures provided Thursday to the Streetcar Authority board of directors.

 

The numbers have far exceeded where we thought we would start, Tom Gerend, Streetcar Authority executive director, told the board. He said original projections were for an average of 2,700 riders per day.

 

And here's the interesting part...

 

Because ridership has been so high, the Streetcar Authority board said it also would explore the idea of purchasing a fifth vehicle for its fleet.

 

Remember that Kansas City piggybacked on Cincinnati's order. When Cincinnati placed our order for five streetcars, the contract also included options for many more streetcars. Kansas City purchased four of our options. So if they want a matching fifth streetcar, they would presumably buy another one of our options. I'm not sure how much money would be involved, but hopefully that would be a decent chunk that we could put into our first year operations or studies for future streetcar phases.

 

Not to put a damper on those numbers, but

1) Isn't the KC Streetcar free to ride? That would affect ridership numbers and help drive them up.

2) and more importantly, the Streetcar has been open for about a month now, while ridership has more than doubled anticipated riders, remember this is such a small sample size and will likely go down once you take the sample out for closer to a year. hopefully is meets or exceeds expectations but I would be curious to see if it can maintain that same pace 6-8 months in. Plus, I assume ridership will dip come winter.

Sure, I don't expect KC's numbers to remain above 6,000 daily riders permanently. But the fact that numbers are still so high after a few weeks shows that people aren't just riding it as a novelty, they are finding way to work it into their daily routine -- taking it to work, taking it to go out for lunch, etc. There have been quite a few photos shared of people taking it to get groceries. Will the numbers dip closer to the original estimates over time? Probably. But I think the important lesson is that the official ridership estimates are typically conservative. When planners estimated that the KC streetcar will have 2,700 daily riders, what they are actually saying is, "there is a 90% probability that there will be 2,700 riders or more per day". As you reduce that probability (level of certainty), the ridership number goes up. Because you can't predict every factor that influences ridership with high certainty.

 

Last Friday I was walking home from Rhinegeist, and as I was walking south on Elm, I passed a group of about a dozen middle-aged women south of Findlay Market. They must've been walking from the Washington Park area up to Rhinegeist. Quite frankly I was shocked at this sight. These blocks of OTR have basically nothing going on (yet) and still have an air of being creepy/abandoned. I would bet that if the streetcar was up and running, these women would have been taking it instead of walking. Every time I see a situation like that, even though it's just anecdotal, it leads me to believe that we are going to blow away our ridership estimates.

^ I do think the Streetcar will surprise people and exceed expectations after the first year or two but it will probably be only a few hundred above expectations. EVen if it is under expectations, the benefits are more to the real estate that will get developed in the area because of the streetcar.

 

I do think that was an interesting tidbit for the streetcar option. Could be a boon to the city to help balance the operating costs initially on it.

Think we need another stop near 12th and Elm

I agree. If the Washington Park stop was more in front of Memorial Hall instead of at 14th, that might have worked, but now with the Shakespeare Theater going in and to encourage development around the bend of Central Parkway, there should be a stop at that corner.

Think we need another stop near 12th and Elm

I agree. If the Washington Park stop was more in front of Memorial Hall instead of at 14th, that might have worked, but now with the Shakespeare Theater going in and to encourage development around the bend of Central Parkway, there should be a stop at that corner.

 

I don't see how we can do that without getting too close to the existing Music Hall stop. Ideally the Washington Park stop would've been farther south like Jskinner[/member] said. Actually, I heard that 3CDC asked right before construction began if they could move the location of that stop. (Since 3CDC basically ignored the streetcar during the planning process, when they realized that it was actually going to be built, they had an "oh $hit" moment and realized, "we should pay attention to where the stops are going." But by that point it was too late and the stops couldn't be moved.)

 

This is the issue with the way the track bends over slightly to meet each stop. While it is a nice feature and allows the stops to be recessed a bit, it prevents us from adding more stops or changing to longer vehicles without also making changes to the track.

This is the issue with the way the track bends over slightly to meet each stop. While it is a nice feature and allows the stops to be recessed a bit, it prevents us from adding more stops or changing to longer vehicles without also making changes to the track.

 

Couldn't you just have the occasional stop that juts out a little more than normal?

Think we need another stop near 12th and Elm

 

Why? It's literally one block from 12th and Elm to the Washington Park/Music Hall stop? Given that the streetcar will be operating in mixed traffic and will not be grade separated, speed is already going to be a concern, and more stops would just further slow down the service. People can walk a block or two.

Think we need another stop near 12th and Elm

 

It appears that the lack of a stop in this section is a big time advantage for the streetcar.  I challenged a streetcar to a running race starting at The Banks last week (after having run to Covington from Clifton) and left it in the dust on Main St. downtown until it came out of nowhere and caught up with me right in front of Music Hall. 

https://storage.googleapis.com/vidsums/d04c805c-fb45-4d53-973a-a3ad1f9060d5_text.gif

 

Think we need another stop near 12th and Elm

 

Why? It's literally one block from 12th and Elm to the Washington Park/Music Hall stop? Given that the streetcar will be operating in mixed traffic and will not be grade separated, speed is already going to be a concern, and more stops would just further slow down the service. People can walk a block or two.

 

It's two blocks. The thing is people in the NW quadrant of downtown would already be walking a few blocks from/to OTR to use the Music Hall stop so a stop at the south end of the park would be a lot closer for them. It could help revitalize Court Street. The next nearest northbound stop would be 12th and Vine, or else all the way across downtown to Main Street.

 

Also the Trancept will be hosting a lot of weddings, and the Shakespeare Company is there where direct access would be an advantage. 

 

I agree that slowing it down is a valid concern though. This would need to be balanced against that once we get some service data.

^Court St. is probably going to come back on its own, but one thing I've thought about is building a new streetcar branch to the West End via Court St.  So tracks would branch from Main and Walnut, travel west on Court St. to Linn St., then north on Linn St. to Central Parkway, where the branch would enter a bored tunnel and emerge next to UC on Clifton Ave.  So everything in the West End would take on the characteristic of having streetcar service to both downtown and uptown, as will Over-the-Rhine.  So everything on Linn St. would be just 5~ minutes from UC. 

If you talk to Portland, they say the number one mistake they made was going, "Oh! we need a stop for this business, and a stop for this business!!!" Now they consider their first phase to be too closely spaced with stops.  Adding stops is a silly idea.  Perhaps in a perfect world we would have had them spaced differently, but no one knew a Shakespeare theater was going in or that an abandoned church was going to get renovated to an event space.  Let's stop being silly people. No stop's should be added and none will be removed.

Meanwhile in Kansas City...

 

The system so far has tallied 128,760 rider trips and is averaging more than 6,400 trips per day, according to figures provided Thursday to the Streetcar Authority board of directors.

 

“The numbers have far exceeded where we thought we would start,” Tom Gerend, Streetcar Authority executive director, told the board. He said original projections were for an average of 2,700 riders per day.

 

And here's the interesting part...

 

Because ridership has been so high, the Streetcar Authority board said it also would explore the idea of purchasing a fifth vehicle for its fleet.

 

Remember that Kansas City piggybacked on Cincinnati's order. When Cincinnati placed our order for five streetcars, the contract also included options for many more streetcars. Kansas City purchased four of our options. So if they want a matching fifth streetcar, they would presumably buy another one of our options. I'm not sure how much money would be involved, but hopefully that would be a decent chunk that we could put into our first year operations or studies for future streetcar phases.

 

Kansas City's streetcar is great in part because it is a perfectly straight line on the same street.  IT WORKS.  The idea that you have to be spaced by a block isn't a hard and fast rule.  The other thing about Kansas City line, is that it's FAST.  we have so many turns and lane changes and they have virtually none.  There is a benefit to speed (and frequency).

If you want door to door service, I would suggest taking a bike or an uber. There is some walking (or wheeling) required when it comes to using transit.  By trying to hit every attraction and demand driver directly on the route, we would end up slowing service to the point of it being barely competitive to walking, from a time standpoint. I think stops should be expected to cover about a 5-7 minute walk-shed.  Keep in mind this is one line, and we can't cover everything with it.  Streetcar planners designed the route in such a way that it really does not cover the west side of the CBD at all.  Maybe one day there will be a bridge from Race/Elm St to Madison Ave in Covington, and we could run a spur of the streetcar from there down either Race or Elm as part of a loop that hits NKY.  I just think that by trying to do too much, the streetcar could end up hurting it's overall effectiveness by reducing efficiency and speed.

Do the Reds (and the Bengals for that matter) get any of the parking revenue from the parking at The Banks on game days? If so, they might be reluctant to support anything that redistributes parking revenue around the CBD/OTR.

 

The bengals definitely do, I think the Reds don't get as much (their lease deal is different and less egregious).

If you talk to Portland, they say the number one mistake they made was going, "Oh! we need a stop for this business, and a stop for this business!!!" Now they consider their first phase to be too closely spaced with stops.  Adding stops is a silly idea.  Perhaps in a perfect world we would have had them spaced differently, but no one knew a Shakespeare theater was going in or that an abandoned church was going to get renovated to an event space.  Let's stop being silly people. No stop's should be added and none will be removed.

 

I'm not saying it has to happen, but I don't think it's silly either.  What stops would you use from City Hall? For southbound obviously 12th and Race. But for northbound youd have to go all the way past the park to Music Hall.  12th and Elm is a corner point on the route map.

 

If one did go in there I'd want it to be on 12th street before the curve directly south of the Park instead of on Elm I think.

The way rail transit works is not everyone gets their own stop to use all the time.  Stops are spaced based on a number of factors.  I'd agree it should be on 12th at the intersection.  I don't disagree that perhaps it could have been built.  But it's not being added. If someone has an extra 35K to build a new stop they're way more likely to put that $35K to doing an engineering report on Phase 2.

Adding a stop is not that big of a deal. Portland just completed a whole bunch of track improvements along several blocks of First Avenue -- replacing some track and switches, improving drainage of the trackway and replacing the ties under the tracks there. They closed this section of track for two weeks, diverted some trains, and ferried other passengers on a bus bridge. The point is that everything changed in the past few years around 12th and Elm in a big way. And the area will change more as the Streitman Bakery Building office project starts to pull development west of Elm. Think about the distance between the stops at 12th and Vine and 14th and Elm. Nowhere else has that great of a separation between the stops -- even the distance from Fifth and Walnut to The Banks stop is less than that, and the line between those points has much less activity.

 

If the streetcar is extended on Race and Elm south into downtown, then there could be stops on those blocks between Central Parkway and 12th. 

Adding a stop is not that big of a deal. Portland just completed a whole bunch of track improvements along several blocks of First Avenue -- replacing some track and switches, improving drainage of the trackway and replacing the ties under the tracks there. They closed this section of track for two weeks, diverted some trains, and ferried other passengers on a bus bridge. The point is that everything changed in the past few years around 12th and Elm in a big way. And the area will change more as the Streitman Bakery Building office project starts to pull development west of Elm. Think about the distance between the stops at 12th and Vine and 14th and Elm. Nowhere else has that great of a separation between the stops -- even the distance from Fifth and Walnut to The Banks stop is less than that, and the line between those points has much less activity.

 

Just a fun first person tidbit: with the 1st avenue improvement project going on, a lot of the system was out of whack. But scheduled during the same period was the Bike More Challenge (an effort to get companies' employees to commute via bike for May). The results were pretty astounding:

 

832 ORGANIZATIONS

11,741 PARTICIPANTS

1,959 NEW RIDERS

1,656,061 MILES

203,687 TRIPS

Somebody recently posted that all the streetcars now have the required non-revenue test hours completed?  So if this is the case does this mean we have to wait until simulated service running starts in Aug to see streetcars, or are they still running in some kind of training/testing mode that may be needed but not necessarily federally required?

They seem to be doing a lot of testing around the MOF right now, such as training firefighters on how to work around the system. I'm sure we will see them out testing while drivers are trained. But yes, I believe at least 4 of the streetcars (if not all 5) have passed their burn-in testing by now.

Streetcar vandalized:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2016/06/10/streetcar-gets-unexpected-new-paint-job/85708756/

OMG those Atlanta pictures gave me a heart attack before I realized they weren't our cars.

I'm thinking it's even-money the streetcar will be operating during this year's Oktoberfest. The Chamber wants it to happen. It's just a safety issue at this point. One thing I learned today is that the mayor has directed that they can't even operate the OTR loop during Oktoberfest. The whole system has to shut down even though the loops were designed from the get-go to operate independently. In any case, time's on our side. i think the events are headed to the river sooner or later.

...the mayor has directed that they can't even operate the OTR loop during Oktoberfest...

 

Was any reason given, besides being an asshole?

Cincinnati on September 9th, "Green Eggs and Ham" Day

 

You do not like them. So you say.

Try them! Try them! And you may.

Try them and you may, I say.

 

Sam! If you let me be,

I will try them. You will see.

 

(... And he tries them ...)

 

Say! I like green eggs and ham!

I do! I like them, Sam-I-Am!

And I would eat them in a boat.

And I would eat them with a goat...

And I will eat them, in the rain.

And in the dark. And on a train.

And in a car. And in a tree.

They are so good, so good, you see!

So I will eat them in a box.

And I will eat them with a fox.

And I will eat them in a house.

And I will eat them with a mouse.

And I will eat them here and there.

Say! I will eat them anywhere!

I do so like green eggs and ham!

Thank you! Thank you, Sam-I-Am.

I'm thinking it's even-money the streetcar will be operating during this year's Oktoberfest. The Chamber wants it to happen. It's just a safety issue at this point. One thing I learned today is that the mayor has directed that they can't even operate the OTR loop during Oktoberfest. The whole system has to shut down even though the loops were designed from the get-go to operate independently. In any case, time's on our side. i think the events are headed to the river sooner or later.

 

Does the Mayor have the authority to make that decision? If the Chamber asks for the downtown loop to be shut down, what authority does the Mayor have to say Metro/Transdev cannot operate the OTR loop?

I'm thinking it's even-money the streetcar will be operating during this year's Oktoberfest. The Chamber wants it to happen. It's just a safety issue at this point. One thing I learned today is that the mayor has directed that they can't even operate the OTR loop during Oktoberfest. The whole system has to shut down even though the loops were designed from the get-go to operate independently. In any case, time's on our side. i think the events are headed to the river sooner or later.

 

 

Does the Mayor have the authority to make that decision? If the Chamber asks for the downtown loop to be shut down, what authority does the Mayor have to say Metro/Transdev cannot operate the OTR loop?

 

Dicktator...

Streetcar vandalized:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2016/06/10/streetcar-gets-unexpected-new-paint-job/85708756/

 

Enquirer still uses the term "running" for the streetcar. Must be lots of diesel clatter...

Cincinnati on September 9th, "Green Eggs and Ham" Day

 

You do not like them. So you say.

Try them! Try them! And you may.

Try them and you may, I say.

 

Sam! If you let me be,

I will try them. You will see.

 

(... And he tries them ...)

 

Say! I like green eggs and ham!

I do! I like them, Sam-I-Am!

And I would eat them in a boat.

And I would eat them with a goat...

And I will eat them, in the rain.

And in the dark. And on a train.

And in a car. And in a tree.

They are so good, so good, you see!

So I will eat them in a box.

And I will eat them with a fox.

And I will eat them in a house.

And I will eat them with a mouse.

And I will eat them here and there.

Say! I will eat them anywhere!

I do so like green eggs and ham!

Thank you! Thank you, Sam-I-Am.

 

 

Ha!  "Would you, could you, on a train?" should be the Streetcar's motto.

Re. Oktoberfest, streetcars and crowds are natural allies.  Here's a look at how normal cities do things (the Canadian National Exhibition) (Ooops pic was wrong file type will upload later)

^Expo '86 monorail action in Vancouver:

 

Who was responsible for choosing the color scheme of the Streetcar. Whomever that person is, they should be fired and given a long and painful death. There were many color schemes that could have been chosen. KC picked a good color scheme for their car. Cincinnati could have done so much better and done something that would make it fit with the city. Instead, some idiot chooses to paint the streetcars in Sh*tsburgh colors!!!

Who was responsible for choosing the color scheme of the Streetcar. Whomever that person is, they should be fired and given a long and painful death. There were many color schemes that could have been chosen. KC picked a good color scheme for their car. Cincinnati could have done so much better and done something that would make it fit with the city. Instead, some idiot chooses to paint the streetcars in Sh*tsburgh colors!!!

 

Whatever. Tired of this bullsh*t. It looks great in person.

SO sick of hearing "everything in Cincinnati has to be red." There's more to life than sports, people.

Who was responsible for choosing the color scheme of the Streetcar. Whomever that person is, they should be fired and given a long and painful death. There were many color schemes that could have been chosen. KC picked a good color scheme for their car. Cincinnati could have done so much better and done something that would make it fit with the city. Instead, some idiot chooses to paint the streetcars in Sh*tsburgh colors!!!

 

Oh for f**k's sake, NO. It's not only not Pittsburgh colors, it's a form of public transit that has f**k all to do with sports. They look phenomenal in person and the color scheme is perfect.

Our streetcars look great. Kansas City's streetcars look bland and washed-out.

There are colors on the KC streetcar? I thought the whole thing was in grayscale.

Pretty sure KC ordered their gray over white vehicles so they could plaster the most ads on them. Cincinnati is going to put ads on our streetcars too, but we're being (mostly) thoughtful how we're doing it.

SO sick of hearing "everything in Cincinnati has to be red." There's more to life than sports, people.

Yeah that's for sure. I can't figure out why some people need to view everything through the Reds/Bengals lens.

 

The bright and somewhat unusual color of our streetcars make me happy every time I see one.

Proper public transit systems should be "stoner colors" instead of plain ol' primary ones. It's a sign of progressiveness. I was bummed when COTA went from tan and orange to just RWB.

So, unless the Chamber has quietly requested that the streetcars shut down during Oktoberfest, they have now missed their deadline to do so.

Cant be red either that's the color of the Cardinals. Clearly the only solutions are either pink or rainbow so that no one will be offended. :wink: BTW I love the yellow. Embrace it as Cincinnati Transit Yellow and assume the Steelers stole it from us. Plus they all stole it from the Cincinnati Stingers anyway......

 

Call me color blind, but they're orange... The steelers are yellow and black, bengals are orange, what's the big deal? If anything I crave a creamsicle every time I see the streetcar go by.