I rode today for the first time. Did they re-color ALL the streetcars in Cincinnati Bell colors? I liked the orange better, although I understand the need to get corporate sponsorships.  Also, I rode the loop twice and it was standing room only most of the way.  I bought the all day pass, but another passenger told me I would never have to show it or swipe it.  REALLY? WTF!  When I deboarded i gave my day pass to a passenger at the stop who was trying to figure out how to use the ticket kiosk vending machine.  I assume day passes are transferable?  Also, the real time digital posts at the stop seem more reliable than the Metro bus tracker website.

^ The streetcar tickets are not unlike paying for a parking meter - a lot of the time you can get away with not paying, but if you get caught you'll wish you would have just paid the $2. It's a $100 fine if you are caught riding without a pass.

I've been asked to show my ticket twice.

Portland's light rail (and streetcar) operate the same way. Honor system but huge fine if you get caught. Wouldn't work for NYC or Chicago but works just fine for medium-sized cities.

Why wouldn't it work in NYC or Chicago?  That's basically how all European surface transit systems operate, and even some subways. 

If NYC, Chicago, LA, or DC had an honor system for their subways, I imagine there would be a lot more fare evasion. Those systems carry so many passengers that it would be impossible for fare inspectors to verify a meaningful percentage of them. It might work in European countries, but I suspect that they get more of their operating expenses funded by the government and are less dependent on fares. (Which would be great in the U.S., but that's another discussion.)

The LIRR has the option to buy a ticket onboard for slightly more and based on how many people I've seen buying tickets onboard when the ticket checker comes by I'd imagine that a TON of people were trying to pull a fast one and only ever buy a ticket when put in that position. I'd imagine a very large portion of riders of the subway would be more than happy trying to skirt the system since the stops are frequent enough that you could just get off at the next stop if you needed to. And with the human-centipede style trains NYC is buying it's going to be easier to just move further down the train away from the ticket checker, buying yourself plenty of time to get off at the next stop.

It's not necessary to force such a system onto already access-controlled subway, elevated, or conductor-staffed commuter trains, but for buses, streetcars, and light rail it would be much preferred even in big cities.  A bus is much easier for fare enforcers to check, and even if it's overcrowded (where trying to verify everyone's tickets would be prohibitive) they can swoop in on anyone disembarking and let the bus move along.  I don't know what the typical percentage is for fare evasion in Europe, but like with parking violations or speeding or whatever, the point is not to catch everyone but to make the fines and the frequency of enforcement sufficient enough to discourage the behavior and cover the costs of enforcement and lost fares.  At $100 per violation they'd only need to catch a few people per day to make the numbers work. 

 

Not sure about the LIRR situation since it looks like all stations have ticket machines, but maybe they jam, break, or have trouble with credit cards or whatever.  On Chicago's Metra system, which still uses old-fashioned punched tickets and conductors, there's an extra fee for buying tickets on the train, but not if the station where you boarded has no agent or machine, which seems to be about half of them. 

There's no reason to have fares based on the honor system if you have platforms that can be secured via turnstiles. That wouldn't work with streetcars, but it works for subways/elevated rail like Chicago and NYC have.  There's also the reality that on a very crowded train, it's next to impossible for a fare collector to move around and check everyone's tickets. I can't imagine someone trying to move through a 6 train in NYC and check tickets at rush hour - it might be physically impossible.

 

On a somewhat related note, Taipei has an interesting setup with paid turnstiles to both enter and exit. You scan a card or token on your way in, and then again on your way out. This allows them to easily charge more for longer trips because your card or token indicates where your origin was.

If NYC, Chicago, LA, or DC had an honor system for their subways, I imagine there would be a lot more fare evasion. Those systems carry so many passengers that it would be impossible for fare inspectors to verify a meaningful percentage of them. It might work in European countries, but I suspect that they get more of their operating expenses funded by the government and are less dependent on fares. (Which would be great in the U.S., but that's another discussion.)

 

LA had an honor system until a few years ago btw, they did away with it: https://www.metro.net/riding/gate-latching/

There's no reason to have fares based on the honor system if you have platforms that can be secured via turnstiles. That wouldn't work with streetcars, but it works for subways/elevated rail like Chicago and NYC have.  There's also the reality that on a very crowded train, it's next to impossible for a fare collector to move around and check everyone's tickets. I can't imagine someone trying to move through a 6 train in NYC and check tickets at rush hour - it might be physically impossible.

 

On a somewhat related note, Taipei has an interesting setup with paid turnstiles to both enter and exit. You scan a card or token on your way in, and then again on your way out. This allows them to easily charge more for longer trips because your card or token indicates where your origin was.

 

Exactly, Ram23[/member], you made the other point that I forgot to make. If you have a subway or el system, you can install turnstiles and make sure that people can't get onto the platforms unless they pay their fare. With streetcars and most light rail systems, you can't do that. So you either have to check fares at the door (which would make it just as slow as a bus) or you go with the honor system. If you have already installed the turnstile infrastructure, like DC and NYC have, why would you ever abandon it and go back to the honor system?

I bought the all day pass, but another passenger told me I would never have to show it or swipe it.  REALLY? WTF!

 

I have seen plenty of officers riding the streetcar but almost never asking people to show their ticket. Even if they're not handing out fines yet, I think people would feel a lot better about the streetcar if they got asked to show their fare.

 

I assume day passes are transferable?

 

Probably not, technically.

If you have already installed the turnstile infrastructure, like DC and NYC have, why would you ever abandon it and go back to the honor system?

 

Nobody was suggesting that, but even big cities with extensive subways still have huge bus networks, and they usually use the honor system in Europe regardless of what the heavy rail system uses.  That was the crux of my original question why you thought it wouldn't work in Chicago or NYC.  I wasn't suggesting at all that the Chicago 'L' or New York subway should use the honor system since they already have access controls, but the bus systems are extensive and slow in no small part due to fare collection, and in Chicago CTA buses carry more passengers than the 'L'.  In New York the MTA subway lines carry about 3x as many people as their buses, but even so the number of bus trips in NYC is more than Chicago's entire CTA ridership so it's no small potatoes. 

If you have already installed the turnstile infrastructure, like DC and NYC have, why would you ever abandon it and go back to the honor system?

 

Nobody was suggesting that, but even big cities with extensive subways still have huge bus networks, and they usually use the honor system in Europe regardless of what the heavy rail system uses.  That was the crux of my original question why you thought it wouldn't work in Chicago or NYC.  I wasn't suggesting at all that the Chicago 'L' or New York subway should use the honor system since they already have access controls, but the bus systems are extensive and slow in no small part due to fare collection, and in Chicago CTA buses carry more passengers than the 'L'.  In New York the MTA subway lines carry about 3x as many people as their buses, but even so the number of bus trips in NYC is more than Chicago's entire CTA ridership so it's no small potatoes. 

 

Fare collection is much improved on the CTA at least, particularly since there are now cards that almost everyone has to pay their fares, the exception is people digging around for change, not the rule.  Its a shock when I go to Cincy and at least 50 percent of everyone is paying fares instead of using stored value cards/monthly cards.  The biggest issue with speed IMO is actually stop spacing where in Chicago most buses literally stop every other block.  It was wonderful when I was in Kyoto Japan (a Japanese city that's mostly served by bus instead of train) and even though everyone paid fare (it helped that yen has very large denominations in coin form) through a coin box, the buses stopped at reasonable distances - it was significantly faster than CTA buses (and the seats were soft and plush to boot).

I agree with the sentiment about the Kyoto bus network, it seemed to work fairly well there (then again, every mode of transportation I used in Japan worked really

well). If I remember correctly, you boarded through the rear doors and paid when you exited the front of the bus, which also seemed to help with the efficiency.

Well in Japan you can also have a single stored-value tap card that works on every city's bus and subway system as well as inter-city trains. Imagine if we had that in the U.S., where you could use the same fare card in Cincinnati and Chicago and Seattle. And you just tap it when you get on any city bus in the country. That would be a game changer.

I wonder if the fact that the vast majority of transit in Japan is privately-owned made the implementation of that system easier or more difficult.

The problem with public transportation and trains in the United States is not fare collection.  It's that it barely physically exists. 

Well in Japan you can also have a single stored-value tap card that works on every city's bus and subway system as well as inter-city trains. Imagine if we had that in the U.S., where you could use the same fare card in Cincinnati and Chicago and Seattle. And you just tap it when you get on any city bus in the country. That would be a game changer.

 

The card system in Japan is pretty complex, and integration isn't quite at 100% yet, different companies offer different cards and some are compatible with other systems (and every region has multiple cards with multiple companies offering transit services).  I think this will be fixed by the time of the Tokyo Olympics of 2020 though.  Due to the person organizing my trip not researching things well and thinking the card wasn't worth it for the group I went with, I didn't really get to use a card while in Japan so I didn't really get an idea of how they worked (though I really wish I had bought would it would have saved me money).  The Kyoto buses did fare collection when you exited the bus, probably not ideal for the states, but it still does save time (I don't think the buses had cards on them though - that was only the subway services).

 

 

The problem with public transportation and trains in the United States is not fare collection.  It's that it barely physically exists.

 

Agreed, but a separate issue that should be address is that even when it does exist we do things really backwards - we almost purposely make our buses as miserable/slow as possible to ride and we could execute them a whole lot better.  There are exceptions to this rule (NJ Transit for instance has a ton of intercity(suburbs) buses that are pretty nice and Seattle has a shocking number of frequently running express buses at least to the UW area).

Took the streetcar for the first time yesterday. Ticketing kiosks were inoperable when I arrived at 12th and vine. Walked to the music hall stop, but that one was inoperable as well, so we just got the app which worked fine. I'll probably just always use the app from now on. The streetcar got us from CMH to Rhinegeist in a flash, it was certainly worthwhile, even for such a short trip.

 

My wait for the return trip from Rhinegeist was around 25 minutes, the lightboard said "delayed" for most of that. The Bengals game had just gotten out, so I assumed it was because of that, but when a streetcar finally arrived, the driver kicked everyone off and said the car was having issues and was being taken out of service. After I finally got picked up, it was great to get down to the gateway garage in only a few minutes.

 

I talked to some tourists while I waited and they were very complimentary of the system and said the rode it all weekend while they were in town. I also overheard a bunch of good comments from other riders while I was on it. I can definitely see myself using it frequently, but it certainly has some things that need to be ironed out.

Well in Japan you can also have a single stored-value tap card that works on every city's bus and subway system as well as inter-city trains. Imagine if we had that in the U.S., where you could use the same fare card in Cincinnati and Chicago and Seattle. And you just tap it when you get on any city bus in the country. That would be a game changer.

 

The card system in Japan is pretty complex, and integration isn't quite at 100% yet, different companies offer different cards and some are compatible with other systems (and every region has multiple cards with multiple companies offering transit services).  I think this will be fixed by the time of the Tokyo Olympics of 2020 though.  Due to the person organizing my trip not researching things well and thinking the card wasn't worth it for the group I went with, I didn't really get to use a card while in Japan so I didn't really get an idea of how they worked (though I really wish I had bought would it would have saved me money).  The Kyoto buses did fare collection when you exited the bus, probably not ideal for the states, but it still does save time (I don't think the buses had cards on them though - that was only the subway services).

 

I ended up buying a Pasmo card in Tokyo and used it on the Tokyo Subway, JR East trains, and the Kyoto subway. There were competitors to Pasmo and I'm not sure they're as widely accepted.

 

That would be sort of like if you could use Visa and Mastercard to get on the bus in every American city. Maybe some cities would only accept one or the other, but many would accept both, and it would still be more convenient than each city having their own transit card. When I was recently in Salt Lake City, I learned that you can use any NFC card or NFC-enabled device to pay your fare. So I ended up using Apple Pay and simply tapped my iPhone at the light rail platform or as I boarded the bus to pay my fare.

That would be sort of like if you could use Visa and Mastercard to get on the bus in every American city. Maybe some cities would only accept one or the other, but many would accept both, and it would still be more convenient than each city having their own transit card. When I was recently in Salt Lake City, I learned that you can use any NFC card or NFC-enabled device to pay your fare. So I ended up using Apple Pay and simply tapped my iPhone at the light rail platform or as I boarded the bus to pay my fare.

 

Btw in Chicago if you have a credit/debit card that allows for touch pay (it has a little radio type logo on it - RFID chip for you techies) you can pay with that card.  The issue is that a lot of people were just tapping with their wallets and getting incorrectly charged with their non ventra cards.  Chase sent me a notice that my card needed to be replaced without good reason, and I noticed that the replacement card didn't have the touch pay feature on it - I think Chase was tired of dealing with bad payments from people who didn't understand the system :/.

 

Most Pasmo cards aren't full american style credit cards but they can be used like them, and in Japan that basically fills in for the fact that real credit cards aren't widely used...

I'm not usually one to subscribe to conspiracy theories - let alone creating one - but ... given the obvious problems with meeting the scheduled 12-15 min headway I'm starting to think SORTA may not want accurate real time arrival info on reader boards and apps, because it would then be obvious the headways are not being met. That's a contractual issue that's been contentious with the city already.

 

At least that fits the data and could explain why a feature available elsewhere isn't part of our brand new state-of-the-art streetcar.

You have to wonder. These are the same ticketing machines at Govt. Square and in Uptown. The same real-time arrival technology and displays as well.

 

I also think drivers are just not turning the GPS on when they start up the streetcar.

I also think drivers are just not turning the GPS on when they start up the streetcar.

 

Someone (maybe John Schneider) mentioned that both KC and Cincy use the same tracking for our buses and streetcars. In both cities it works fine for buses but not so great for streetcars. I think the system has a hard time understanding when the streetcars turn around due to the way it treats the streetcar as 2 routes (100 inbound & 100 outbound).

 

Speaking of which,  Jake made the suggestion that streetcars should actually scroll their destination rather than just scrolling "100 - The Banks - OTR" the whole time. It should be "To The Banks" when headed south and "To OTR - Brewery District" when headed north.

Had a disastrous attempt to ride it on Saturday around 1 in the afternoon. I had three out of town visitors in for MPMF, and thought we would do a loop from 12th and Main and get off downtown and go to Maplewood.

 

When we arrived at the platform, arrival time was pegged at 22 minutes.  Credit card reader did not work, nor did validation.  Eventually we were able to get our unvalidated cards. And waited. Arrival time clicked down to 3, then back up to 30. So we waited. In the interim, a technician did arrive to work on the machine (a card was stuck in validator).

 

During the interim, the arrival time switched to "Delayed."

 

After about 45 minutes, maybe more on the platform, a train pulled up. Doors opened, and everyone on board shook their heads "NO!" Children looked out in in fear of the crush.

 

There was literally no room to even squeeze/push our way in. Tried the other doors as well.

 

We walked to Maplewood.

This whole thing smells of Cranley. 

^The Barry Horstman experiment in real life.

I can't believe waiting 45 minutes to go what, 6-7 blocks? I'd have waited 10 before saying screw it and walking.

Yeah I don't want to be alarmist but I am getting concerned. It won't take too much more of this poor operational execution, combined with the inability of SORTA to effectively market and let the public know that "we are aware of these issues and this is our plan", before some people will start repeating the narrative about it being a toy and a crappy way to get around downtown/OTR. I mean buses are really not that bad but a huge fraction of the population thinks they suck without ever riding in one. And they don't change their minds easily.

 

I wonder how much longer SORTA thinks we've got to make a good first impression.

I'm not trying to overestimate the power of this forum to actually change the design and construction of the streetcar, but one of the things I kind of resent is how many of these concerns were brought up in this thread years ago, but were always quickly dismissed by the powers at be, so to speak.  I think this was largely done in response to the incessant unfair criticism the project received from those who truly wanted to see it stopped, but in essence, it kind of shut constructive criticism out of the process.  Many of us expressed concern about too many stops, slow speeds, and other problems that have surfaced in other cities where streetcar systems have recently been constructed, and were brushed off and told that speed isn't the objective of a pedestrian accelerator.  Even since its opening, I'm shocked to read responses on here like "what's the obsession with speed about? Take an uber if you want to get somewhere downtown quickly." Statements like that are the exact way to get the public to view the streetcar as novelty item or toy rather than a transit investment.  We can't be dismissive of user experience if we want to grow ridership.  That should be obvious, but I think there is still a feeling of needing to "protect" the streetcar rather than objectively look at its faults and working to overcome them from some people.

Somehow I thought signal prioritization was going to be done at opening, for one thing.

All of these problems are easily solvable, and would be non-issues if we didn't have Cranley in charge.  We need to have more streetcars running on the weekend and some other hours, and a police officer or two helping to direct traffic on the one or two most congested blocks until the signal timing is fixed.   

For what it's worth, I've had pretty good experiences on the streetcar so far. I'm using it to pick up my son from daycare since I can just roll him on in the stroller, as opposed to the bus where I need to fold and stow. Maybe I've just had lucky timing, but getting on at 6th and Main at 5:15pm I've only had to wait 5-6 minutes on average. I've timed it, and it saves about 15 minutes vs walking the same route.

All of these problems are easily solvable, and would be non-issues if we didn't have Cranley in charge.  We need to have more streetcars running on the weekend and some other hours, and a police officer or two helping to direct traffic on the one or two most congested blocks until the signal timing is fixed.   

 

Listen to how Cranley talks when it comes to the streetcar. He never speaks to the city; rather he's always addressing the far-flung suburbanites and Hamilton citizens who dislike it.

 

"If it's a choice between the streetcar and downtown and Oktoberfest, I choose Oktoberfest,” Cranley said. “If it's between the streetcar and Taste of Cincinnati, I choose Taste of Cincinnati. And this streetcar can run in Over-the-Rhine unaffected. But the idea that we were going to burden Taste of Cincinnati and Oktoberfest in favor of the streetcar is nuts! And it's completely at odds with the culture and the history of this great city. Half a million people coming downtown enjoying Oktoberfest is more important than the streetcar, period."

 

from: http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/092716-soapdish-fall-festivals-relocated-mixed-reviews.aspx

 

 

Where he talks about "history" fires directly at the suburban conservative belief that the United States didn't have a culture until 1957. And his tone is straight out of Trumpet land.

^That's good, of course. I've ridden dozens of times, however, and I can assure you that the wait times are highly variable and not at all indicative of a 12-15 minute headway. I think that's been essentially proven.

 

I want to be clear, though, that my particular concern, and I think for many folks, is not the "speed" that the streetcar travels (except inasmuch as that affects headways). Bottom line, once I get on, I'm in a happy place, and I can sit there and daydream or talk to someone (or look at my phone, of course). I just don't like the waiting experience, and particularly the uncertainty/variability of it.

 

I also agree with jmecklenborg[/member] that these problems are all very solvable. The problem is that we don't know if they are being solved, and on what timetable they will be solved. Many people here blame Cranley and I'm certainly no fan. But frankly its SORTA/Transdev that has the operations contract. They need to start acting like its in their best interests to be proactive. You know, like taking part in Council agendas, giving regular updates that are publicized, laying out clear schedules for planned improvements, etc.

 

I mean, go to the SORTA streetcar page; it links to a City site. I'm astonished at that. You'd think that in 2016 part of a basic operations contract would include little details like, you know, maintaining and advertising an active and meaningful web presence.

People are forgetting that we currently have the fox guarding the henhouse. The mayor and 3 council members who pledged to kill the streetcar, and the 3 other streetcar skeptics on council, make up 7 of the City Manager's 10 bosses. If we had rational leadership, they'd say, "the streetcars are absolutely packed on Bengals game days, so we need to find a way to run 4 streetcars." It would not be that hard for the city to "find" an extra $100,000 that could be used for running extra streetcars on big weekends. Especially when we have a $16 million surplus this year.

People are forgetting that we currently have the fox guarding the henhouse. The mayor and 3 council members who pledged to kill the streetcar, and the 3 other streetcar skeptics on council, make up 7 of the City Manager's 10 bosses. If we had rational leadership, they'd say, "the streetcars are absolutely packed on Bengals game days, so we need to find a way to run 4 streetcars." It would not be that hard for the city to "find" an extra $100,000 that could be used for running extra streetcars on big weekends. Especially when we have a $16 million surplus this year.

 

Given that the additional funding for increased service during Oktoberfest was not needed in the end because the amount of fares collected was so high, chances are running additional streetcars during big events would cost the city next to nothing. It should be a no-brainer.

I had this idea today...the digital signs at the stations should announce when the system closes each night.  Starting at about 9pm, the sign could cycle through a message reading "streetcar service ends at midnight" or whatever time it stops.

Over 18,000 riders on the streetcar this weekend:

 

http://www.go-metro.com/news/744/58/18-000-Rides-on-Cincinnati-Bell-Connector-During-Bengals-Home-Opener-Weekend

 

5109 on Friday

7933 on Saturday

4964 on Sunday

Good news, if true:

Deatrick: all the remaining issues with the Cincinnati streetcar ticketing and real-time arrival should be sorted out by the end of the week

Over 18,000 riders on the streetcar this weekend:

 

http://www.go-metro.com/news/744/58/18-000-Rides-on-Cincinnati-Bell-Connector-During-Bengals-Home-Opener-Weekend

 

5109 on Friday

7933 on Saturday

4964 on Sunday

 

Given that Saturday was much busier than Sunday, I imagine the Bengals game raucous over the streetcar was just the fact that 60,000 people were entering/leaving the stadium at once and hundreds tried to get to the streetcar at the exact same time. Rather than constantly running more cars all day, should Metro try to line up 2 or 3 cars at the southernmost stops as the game ends? A similar setup occurs with the 7 train in NYC after Mets games.

Metro CEO Dwight Ferrell is talking to council right now. Says they're talking about eliminating the validation step to simplify the process.

 

Also, they've made $49k in fares so far. Not including people who may have a monthly metro pass and use it on the streetcar for free.

Wonder if the trend will continue with way higher weekend ridership or if it's just cuz of events.

How much of the annual budget was estimated fares?

 

Given that Saturday was much busier than Sunday, I imagine the Bengals game raucous over the streetcar was just the fact that 60,000 people were entering/leaving the stadium at once and hundreds tried to get to the streetcar at the exact same time. Rather than constantly running more cars all day, should Metro try to line up 2 or 3 cars at the southernmost stops as the game ends? A similar setup occurs with the 7 train in NYC after Mets games.

 

That makes entirely too much sense.

How much of the annual budget was estimated fares?

 

I believe it was $675,000

 

Given that Saturday was much busier than Sunday, I imagine the Bengals game raucous over the streetcar was just the fact that 60,000 people were entering/leaving the stadium at once and hundreds tried to get to the streetcar at the exact same time. Rather than constantly running more cars all day, should Metro try to line up 2 or 3 cars at the southernmost stops as the game ends? A similar setup occurs with the 7 train in NYC after Mets games.

 

That makes entirely too much sense.

 

I would think you could easily line up two at the 2nd street station, with a third waiting on the Walnut transit only lane above FWW.

Good news, if true:

Deatrick: all the remaining issues with the Cincinnati streetcar ticketing and real-time arrival should be sorted out by the end of the week

Thank God for John Deatrick. Please don't go anywhere, at least until we have a successful next phase.

How much of the annual budget was estimated fares?

 

I believe it was $675,000

 

 

Looks like it is tracking for around $1 million in fares at current pace