absolutely classic, I expect nothing less

Councilman David Mann flips on streetcar, opposes Cranley veto override, proposes new source of funding

 

Councilman David Mann has changed his mind and now opposes using a surplus in the city’s transit fund to balance the streetcar budget for this year, which would allow the project to resume service.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/07/23/mann-flips-on-streetcar.html

 

Probably much ado about nothing. As long as they still have 6 votes to override Cranley's veto, it'll happen. Mann is flip flopping so he has something to distinguish himself from PG in the mayoral race. Mann will claim he is "pro-bus" while PG "raided the transit fund to pay for the trolley." ???

Cincinnati City Council members approve new plan to fund the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar

 

 

A supermajority of City Council members gave initial approval Monday to a new plan to restart the Cincinnati Bell Connector with passengers, moving money around within the budget to fund it for the rest of the fiscal year.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/08/03/council-approves-streetcar-funding.html

I haven't had a chance to dig in to the details of the proposal... but what do you all think? Good news? Bad news? No news?

5 hours ago, jwulsin said:

I haven't had a chance to dig in to the details of the proposal... but what do you all think? Good news? Bad news? No news?

I haven't dug into it either, both proposals are fine to plug this year and maybe next, but the SID tax that is up for a vote in OTR should be expanded to Downtown and incorporate funding the streetcar. The same as KC.

43 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

I haven't dug into it either, both proposals are fine to plug this year and maybe next, but the SID tax that is up for a vote in OTR should be expanded to Downtown and incorporate funding the streetcar. The same as KC.

Downtown SID already exists and funds 3CDC's downtown services after they merged with DCI.

13 hours ago, 10albersa said:

I haven't dug into it either, both proposals are fine to plug this year and maybe next, but the SID tax that is up for a vote in OTR should be expanded to Downtown and incorporate funding the streetcar. The same as KC.

The majority of funds from KC's special taxing district are a 1% sales tax, not property taxes. 

Council overrides Cranley's veto.  The streetcar should start running again by the end of August.  

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

Council overrides Cranley's veto.  The streetcar should start running again by the end of August.  

He has since announced that he will veto the usage of TIF dollars to fund the streetcar so it looks like it will continue to be on the agenda.

Cincinnati City Council overrides Mayor John Cranley streetcar veto, provides alternative funding source

 

It looks like the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar will restart later this month without charging fares.

 

A bipartisan supermajority of Cincinnati City Council overrode Mayor John Cranley's veto of a funding plan for the streetcar on a 6-3 vote Wednesday, with five Democrats and Republican Jeff Pastor voting for the override. Vice Mayor Christopher Smitherman, an independent and council members Betsy Sundermann, a Republican, and David Mann, a Democrat, voted "no."

 

The override means the streetcar could restart within three weeks using $1.5 million in funding from the city's transit earnings tax fund and $260,000 from admissions taxes owed to the city by FC Cincinnati to round out the streetcar's $4.9 million budget.

 

But given opposition to that funding source, a bipartisan supermajority also approved using a different mechanism to fund the streetcar: Moving $1.7 million in tax-increment financing (TIF) funds from downtown and Over-the-Rhine to fund public safety in the general fund, then moving an equal amount of general fund money to round out the streetcar budget. A 7-2 bipartisan majority passed that ordinance, with Mann voting "yes" with the same council members who overrode Cranley's veto: Pastor and DemocratsP.G. Sittenfeld, Chris Seelbach, Wendell Young, Greg Landsman and Jan-Michele Lemon Kearney.

...

UPDATE: After council adjourned, Cranley vetoed the TIF funding source.

 

"The decision is now with you," Councilman Greg Landsman told Cranley after Wednesday's vote.

 

With the veto, the money will come from the transit earnings tax fund for the time being. But council could override that veto at its next meeting in September and could act to replenish whatever was spent from the transit fund with the TIF money.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/08/05/council-overrides-cranley-streetcar-veto-provides.html

Literally can't wait until the Cranley era is over. What did we get with him in charge? Honest question? More and more and more police and more crime, that's pretty much the only change

Undo Mallory

So Council overrode the Transit fund veto AND passed the TIF funded ordinance.

 

According to the what the guy from the Law Department said at the meeting, the TIF funded ordinance supersedes the Transit Fund ordinance since that one is a month older.

 

This means the posturing over using the transit fund and potentially being sued should have been a non-issue if the TIF funded ordinance was allowed to stand. But instead, the Mayor vetoed it.

 

So the Mayor, with the choice to not use the transit fund, choose to veto the TIF fund ordinance which sets up the streetcar reopening using the transit fund and potentially lets SORTA sue the city in response.

 

Then the Mayor blames Council for exposing the city to litigation he could have prevented if he could have just gotten over his stupid streetcar grudge.

 

Sounds like good governance.

Cranley acting like a baby, per usual. 

People like him are why "Columbus" (in the state government sense) doesn't take Cincinnati politicians seriously.

All local Cincinnati politics (in charge at least right now with Cranley) is DINO with small sprinkles of Democrat in it. I have come to the conclusion that a lot of Republicans in charge at least in this moment have no ability to think beyond 1 or 2 steps. Easy example right now is coronavirus (well this country is playing sports and we are better than they are!) instead of looking at actual facts and making a nuanced opinion. Same thing here with streetcar, the whole thing is running out of excuses and honestly I'm so happy to see Jeff Pastor is finally "getting it", not that he never did (maybe he didn't fully understand this issue) but he is showing what leadership is, you listen, you learn, you do what's best for the city. Letting a massive investment rot is stupidly insane, and actually in any real job would get you fired immediately. No investor would ever work with you or take you seriously, "Oh, well you need to go back to accounting because you don't understand how to make this business work now and in the future."

 

Like the Steve red sweater guy, SHOW ME THE PROOF OF STREETCAR PAYING FOR ITSELF! 

 

Well man, if you sat down and think about it, the stats show this for one, for two crime as decreased here by this amount which accounts for this, we increased the population and viability of these buildings without adding parking garages which saves this, tourism has increased here which a small percent can be attributed to that. Each variable has a coefficient and you can pretty much come up with a model if you had enough data and enough expertise (I DONT!). But, I think we could figure some stuff out easily on the streetcar if we had the right people looking at it (I think JYP is doing this I heard on the radio?). Anyways, it's the same exact thing as randomized, placebo controlled studies.

 

I don't know if that is actually econometrics (I studied this) but it is fairly simple to understand once you get it. And so many people can not actually think on a spectrum, they only think black or white, and it's kind of embarrassing how many people have this voice.

 

I was laughing my wife and I just had a baby boy and so late nights, was watching CSPAN talking to the old Fed Reserve Presidents Bernanke and Yellin, and the republican congressman or senator from Georgia was railing against cutting checks for coronavirus because it is just printing money and will increase inflation. Bernanke was like... "well we already print like 30x that amount every year and so you add one more x on there it won't do much if anything to inflation." and the guy was like "no prices will be higher and our dollar value will be lower" and Bernanke was like "Yeah that's not true".

If we want real progressive candidates to win city wide then the city needs to move the elections to presidential years. Having the election on odd years hurts turn out which hurts progressive candidates and wastes money. Council elections need to move the congressional years too.  

2 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

(I think JYP is doing this I heard on the radio?)

Right. We just looked at permit data and added it up. https://www.urbanfastforward.com/streetcar

 

This is the type of analysis the city could easily do if it cared. Heck they can do more because they have payroll tax data, a complete inventory of abated properties, and more.

2 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

Anyways, it's the same exact thing as randomized, placebo controlled studies.

 

I don't disagree with the thrust of your point, but "randomized, placebo controlled studies" are not actually an option when it comes to measuring the impact of a project (like Cincinnati's streetcar). Cities will often pay for "economic analysis" of a project, but these studies are usually trying to justify a political decision, and are pretty bogus if you analyze it from an academic, econometric perspective. Unless you somehow found an identical city with an identical neighborhood and randomly decided which city got the streetcar built... and also somehow control for local political (mis)management... it's impossible to measure. From an academic perspective, you have to separate out the impact of the streetcar from all of the other confounding variables that have contributed to growth/demand in the neighborhood. Tracking building permits is great (thanks @JYP and Urban Fast Forward!), but it doesn't answer the (unanswerable) counterfactual question of how much less development would have happened if the streetcar had never been built (0%, 50%, 90%?). That's not to say there's nothing to measure or analyze. We should be analytical in assessing its current performance and in identifying how it can be improved. To be transparent, I'm a supporter of the streetcar and hope the City gets its act together to make it run more efficiently/frequently and eventually extend it.

45 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

 

I don't disagree with the thrust of your point, but "randomized, placebo controlled studies" are not actually an option when it comes to measuring the impact of a project (like Cincinnati's streetcar). Cities will often pay for "economic analysis" of a project, but these studies are usually trying to justify a political decision, and are pretty bogus if you analyze it from an academic, econometric perspective. Unless you somehow found an identical city with an identical neighborhood and randomly decided which city got the streetcar built... and also somehow control for local political (mis)management... it's impossible to measure. From an academic perspective, you have to separate out the impact of the streetcar from all of the other confounding variables that have contributed to growth/demand in the neighborhood. Tracking building permits is great (thanks @JYP and Urban Fast Forward!), but it doesn't answer the (unanswerable) counterfactual question of how much less development would have happened if the streetcar had never been built (0%, 50%, 90%?). That's not to say there's nothing to measure or analyze. We should be analytical in assessing its current performance and in identifying how it can be improved. To be transparent, I'm a supporter of the streetcar and hope the City gets its act together to make it run more efficiently/frequently and eventually extend it.

 

I agree with what you are saying and didn't meant to imply it would be exactly like a randomized, placebo controlled study.

 

What I was trying to get at was more or less exactly your point save for "identical city, identically neighborhood", etc. Understand cities are way more complex than just plopping a study.

 

What I was trying to convey more was that there are tons of variables/data points you can plug in to get a more accurate picture. What I was thinking was along the lines of comparing pre-2012 to post 2012 or 2010-2012 2012-2014, etc. Then you can measure "Well in 2014 the city built a garage" etc. to get a mroe accurate picture.

 

What I am thinking when I think of impact of the streetcar is things like: reduced capital on parking garages, reduced money spent on tear downs/emergency fixes, tax pay rate %, reduction of crime (which is also another big function but you can turn it into cost), # of permits granted in area vs. out of area (talking about JYP's point of collecting data), health score benefits, increase in jobs in catchment area, increase in tax revenue due to acceleration of jobs in area over 10 years forward, etc. all this being in the "streetcar zone"

 

But I understand what you are saying completely!

It's funny, you can get economic development numbers to say anything you want but it's really tough to get accurate complex ones. Population, easy. Property tax collections, easy. Building permits, easy. Anything more elaborate is tough.

19 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

It's funny, you can get economic development numbers to say anything you want but it's really tough to get accurate complex ones. Population, easy. Property tax collections, easy. Building permits, easy. Anything more elaborate is tough.

 

Yes it is very difficult.

 

One of my projects in econometrics was a study on crime rates like burglaries, robberies, etc. since the data is widely available (this was Urban Economics class). What was already found (I just replicated a study with updated data, what I found wasn't actually research on my part, just another econometrics project), was that they measure a lot of different variables but the strongest variable has no exact reason that can be explained with numbers.

 

It is explained and theorized to be basically: The biggest indicator in a city of future crime or explanation of current crime is crime rates in the past. Basically, it is a cultural thing that is passed down from generation to generation. Something you can't measure in numbers.

 

Same thing in a way with the streetcar, you can't quantify exactly all the benefits, that's why we all voted on it and it passed!

This guy gets it-https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/08/13/my-view-easy-fixes-can-help-streetcar-succeed.html

Thanks for putting that all together into one article we can point people to.

 

Also, this is promising:

 

 

1 hour ago, thomasbw said:

This guy 

 

...this thread's OP, or in the case of a 14 year-old thread, its UR.  

 

 

Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar will restart Sept. 2

 

The Cincinnati Bell Connector has a restart date.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/08/13/streetcar-will-restart-sept-2.html

Here's the gist of the  improvements the City could make to speed up the streetcar. 

 

Short Term

 

• The streetcar spends 89 minutes per day stopped at mid-block traffic lights because the streetcar-only signal is placed at the end of the light sequence. Moving the signal up in the sequence would cost virtually nothing and have no negative impact on motorists. 
• The traffic light at the intersection of Green St. and Race St. serves no purpose and causes the streetcar to be delayed about 11 minutes per day. Replacing this light with a crosswalk would save the city money and improve streetcar running times. 
• Installing “hold green” signals at four key intersections would improve running times by another 28.5 minutes per day. These three signal changes alone would cut more than a minute and a half off every streetcar loop. 
• With bars and restaurants now closing at 10 pm, the streetcar’s hours of operation should be adjusted and those service hours relocated to improve service and reduce wait times during the afternoon when the bulk of the ridership is present.

Medium Term

 

• Area G at Government Square is used by only one bus route, but causes conflicts with streetcar operations. Moving this stop half a block north will reduce delays and the shelter can be relocated to another neighborhood to provide additional amenities as part of the “Re-Inventing Metro” plan.
• Walnut Street south of Central Parkway carries only 2,869 cars and trucks per day, but it is used by 6,894 transit riders daily. Adding transit-only lanes on a street where the majority of users are riding public transit will speed up running times for both Metro and the Streetcar.

 

 

1 hour ago, thomasbw said:

Walnut Street south of Central Parkway carries only 2,869 cars and trucks per day, but it is used by 6,894 transit riders daily. Adding transit-only lanes on a street where the majority of users are riding public transit will speed up running times for both Metro and the Streetcar.

Seeing this statistic laid out like this, then realizing that Walnut is 3.5 lanes of one-way vehicle traffic makes my blood boil.  This needs to have a rush hour streetcar/bus lane, and permanent bus lane in the far left lane.  That STILL leaves 2.5 one-way lanes for cars...

Edited August 14, 20204 yr by 10albersa

@thomasbw did you possibly undercount the transit users on Walnut? I once added up about 22.2k bus riders per day on routes that use Walnut street south. Granted, some or most of these bus riders may embark and disembark outside of downtown and not on Walnut Street itself, but that’s a lot of people. (Also everyone using the bus route benefits if the bus doesn’t get stuck downtown, regardless of origin and destination.) plus about another 2k per day for streetcar

 

https://cincinnatiideas.com/2017/10/27/can-metro-unlock-the-value-hidden-in-our-streets-the-case-for-transit-only-lanes/

Edited August 14, 20204 yr by thebillshark

5 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

@thomasbw did you possibly undercount the transit users on Walnut? I once added up about 22.2k bus riders per day on routes that use Walnut street south. Granted, some or most of these bus riders may embark and disembark outside of downtown and not on Walnut Street itself, but that’s a lot of people. (Also everyone using the bus route benefits if the bus doesn’t get stuck downtown, regardless of origin and destination.) plus about another 2k per day for streetcar

 

https://cincinnatiideas.com/2017/10/27/can-metro-unlock-the-value-hidden-in-our-streets-the-case-for-transit-only-lanes/

Data came from a Metro Planner. That figure is for people on those routes on that specific stretch of Walnut. While the 43 has 4,544 riders per day along the entire route (see below), I only looked at inbound (which immediately cuts that number in half) Walnut (which is a very small portion of the entire route circled in red)

11 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

Data came from a Metro Planner. That figure is for people on those routes on that specific stretch of Walnut. While the 43 has 4,544 riders per day along the entire route (see below), I only looked at inbound (which immediately cuts that number in half) Walnut (which is a very small portion of the entire route circled in red)

 

Got it. Makes sense. 

What has to happen for Cincinnati Bell Connector to not have fares

 

Cincinnati City Council needs to take several steps to allow for the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar to run without fares.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/08/18/how-the-streetcar-can-be-fare-free.html

 

Excited for more unnecessary bickering about this, another mayoral veto of any action by council, and more think pieces by Williams. Really excited.

It seemed like 3-4 streetcars were running today in preparation for the system reopening next week.

I wonder if the city is going to make an effort to remove the "paid fare zone" signage at streetcar stops before the system reopens and is free to ride. And if the TMVs are going to be switched off, or if there will be signage explaining that the streetcar is now free to ride. If not it's going to cause a lot of unnecessary confusion.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

I wonder if the city is going to make an effort to remove the "paid fare zone" signage at streetcar stops before the system reopens and is free to ride. And if the TMVs are going to be switched off, or if there will be signage explaining that the streetcar is now free to ride. If not it's going to cause a lot of unnecessary confusion.

 

I expect that whatever they do will be phrased in such a way as to sew confusion.  

It's been two years since I sent this to memo to City Council. Haven't really made any of proposed changes

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sBKB3nmqeqGRupqQm3yM_0UbZmRlreNI/view?usp=sharing

Edited August 26, 20204 yr by thomasbw

^Not a single person at city hall cares. Regardless of what they say behind closed doors to you, if they really cared, they would be proposing changes. And they aren't.

They installed a person with zero transit industry experience as the "temporary" CEO of the streetcar system and have made zero effort to search for a permanent replacement. In one of the emails I FOIA'ed from City Hall last year, a high ranking DOTE official made an off hand comment to the effect of, "If the streetcar is even still running next year...," which does not inspire confidence that anyone at City Hall is serious about making it run better.

Transportation development districts offer innovative way to fund infrastructure projects

By Jeff Pastor

 

If the state of Ohio and the city of Cincinnati wish to be a land of opportunity, our leadership must act to give communities every tool possible to tackle our toughest problems. Urban, suburban and rural communities know firsthand that demands for transportation infrastructure are outpacing the funds available to meet them. From the massive landslides plaguing Columbia Parkway on the East Side of town and the crumbling Western Hills Viaduct on the West Side to the Cincinnati streetcar in our urban core, we have unique challenges that my colleagues and I on City Council have a responsibility to address.

 

As an elected member of Cincinnati City Council and fiscal conservative, I have researched how other cities solve their transportation infrastructure problems. The most intriguing tool I’ve learned about is called transportation development districts (TDDs). TDDs are effective tools for funding public transportation infrastructure projects that serve a specific area. According to the Missouri Department of Transportation, TDDs can do the following...

 

...below!

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/08/28/tdds-offer-innovative-way-to-fund-transportation.html

 

With the completion of the FCC stadium and the resurgence of our museum center (and hopefully some increased Amtrak frequency down the road), I could see a Casino-West End-Union Terminal route expansion being prioritized over the UC connection.  The route up Vine is going to be expensive, or the alternative route up McMicken will be unnecessarily long.  The West End route would be much cheaper.  And while, yes, connecting our jobs hub and students to downtown is more important, I think the politicians will take the easier improvement over something tougher to sell with a higher price tag.

 

This rides on PG winning mayor + Pastor and/or another Gang of 5 being in office the next 4-8 years.

Recently, I have been thinking that a casino to Union Terminal route would be more successful in the short term because it connects two major parking areas to the stadium. Could it also be a good carrot to encourage Hard Rock to build a hotel at the casino?

Are the stadiums and immediate surroundings so hard up for parking that anyone would (or currently does) do such a thing?  I know people are cheap and don't like paying the in-stadium parking rates, but realistically is anyone even bothering to park in the cheaper lots and garages farther north as it is?  This argument kind of reminds me of "[insert random transit project] doesn't even go to the airport so it's useless," but the statistics show that it's mostly airport employees that use those routes when they're built, not travelers.  Not to say that's a bad thing, because a lot of people work at airports, but the criticism/advocacy is misplaced.  

8 hours ago, Dev said:

Recently, I have been thinking that a casino to Union Terminal route would be more successful in the short term because it connects two major parking areas to the stadium. Could it also be a good carrot to encourage Hard Rock to build a hotel at the casino?

I think that would be a great spur to add. It connects 3 attractions (Casino, FCC Stadium and Union Terminal) to streetcar grid, giving the streetcar more destinations for use. Casino, Union Terminal, FCC and Banks are all major parking structures and allow the ability to shuttle workers into downtown via the streetcar. This makes it more of a transportation alternative for everyone instead of just those living downtown. Now, you can park on the fringes easier (at the stadiums, etc,) and get to your place of work and also to other entertainment venues.  At the end of the day, the majority of the area does not live in the city so creating opportunities to expand ridership for people not living near the line would be a good idea. Now, it allows a worker to take the streetcar to grab a beer at an OTR bar and get to their cheap parking lot at FCC garage or Union Terminal to go to their home in Delhi or Northside. Or for those who park at the Casino, they can take the Streetcar to and from work, giving them more incentive to visit the Casino. 

12 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

Are the stadiums and immediate surroundings so hard up for parking that anyone would (or currently does) do such a thing?  I know people are cheap and don't like paying the in-stadium parking rates, but realistically is anyone even bothering to park in the cheaper lots and garages farther north as it is?  This argument kind of reminds me of "[insert random transit project] doesn't even go to the airport so it's useless," but the statistics show that it's mostly airport employees that use those routes when they're built, not travelers.  Not to say that's a bad thing, because a lot of people work at airports, but the criticism/advocacy is misplaced.  

That's a good point. I would hope that more streetcar coverage would mean we wouldn't have to have a garage next to the stadium at all but how much effort would be needed to get people to park at Union Terminal instead? There seemed to be plenty of push back from suburbanites who had to park at Union Terminal during Blink, I just don't know how representative that was.

^ Being fareless and frequent is critical to making that work.  

17 minutes ago, Dev said:

That's a good point. I would hope that more streetcar coverage would mean we wouldn't have to have a garage next to the stadium at all but how much effort would be needed to get people to park at Union Terminal instead? There seemed to be plenty of push back from suburbanites who had to park at Union Terminal during Blink, I just don't know how representative that was.

There are two benefits to the parking garages at stadiums. 1) it is a premium source of revenue on game days (for Someone, as it makes the economics work) and 2) they offer affordable parking for downtown workers during non-game day - game times.  

The Banks garages offer relatively cheap parking compared to the rest of downtown, and old Riverfront stadium garages did too. By people having to walk 3-4 blocks to their cars, it encouraged them to make a stop after work sometimes, it discouraged them from taking their car out at lunchtime and driving to KY or Hyde Park for a lunch appointment.  During the working hours it keeps people downtown more. 

If you have a lot more surface parking or garages next to your building, it allows more movement during the day. I remember years ago, working in downtown Cleveland. There were a lot more larger surface lots in the business district and people were able more apt to take their cars out during the day it seemed. Now, their downtown is more spread out, and there is also more public transportation in the area, but it seemed like after work, or other events did not take place in downtown proper (Note that this was over 10 years ago so things in Cleveland have probably changed a bit).

11 minutes ago, jjakucyk said:

^ Being fareless and frequent is critical to making that work.  

If you want to be fareless, there are currently 2 large city parking structures on the Street car line (Ftn Sq, US Bank building, The Banks) if you build an FCC garage and extension to Union Terminal, you add a couple more lots. Add $1 flat fee per car that parks in the garage that would be dedicated to the Streetcar fares and make them free. The $1 per car would encourage more riders because they are paying for them and also, assume you only get 25% of those parkers who ride, it could finance the Streetcar system. Monthly parkers could pay a flat $10 fee per month so not to inflate their bill too much.

 

You don't need to charge all city garages the fee, only the ones directly connected to the line. It may even finance expansion. The question is whether that legally works with the ownership structure of the garages (I think Ftn Sq is owned by 3CDC) or the law allows for parking funds to be split in this way. It could be a better way of doing it than TIF funds or special property tax assessment. Anyone have any idea if this is a possibility?

Edited August 31, 20204 yr by Brutus_buckeye

14 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

Are the stadiums and immediate surroundings so hard up for parking that anyone would (or currently does) do such a thing? 

 

I don't know if we're representative, but when I was a kid we'd park up near Court Street or across the river in Newport and walk to the game. My dad refused to pay for the more expensive parking. I'd probably do the same if I didn't live in the city. Plus, it's nice because the walk or streetcar ride is actually fun and adds to the experience.