^

 

The opponents will try to make it one.

 

See:

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/sewers_clog_development/

 

They will flog this dead horse for a while just as they've tried to do with the electric power argument.

 

Sooner or later, they will run out of arguments. Or credibility. Probably both.

 

Is that all you can do? Insult us pesky little dissenters with our bothersome questions?

 

I have a question as well, what size trolley buses are you proposing?  how many people can they hold?

Is that all you can do? Insult us pesky little dissenters with our bothersome questions?

 

I have a pesky question. How will you be refueling these rubber-wheel trolleys?

 

1.) Through conventional diesel fueling stations, that consume electricity that is 90% fed from a coal fired power plant? With diesel that is produced in a refinery 250 miles away whose sole source of energy comes from one of the dirtiest coal fired power plants in the U.S.?

2.) Through conventional diesel fueling stations, that consume electricity that is 90% fed from a coal fired power plant? With bio-diesel that increases certain aspects of pollution while reducing others?

Dean, have you contacted ODOT concerning the legality of painting colored stripes on city streets?  Any odd road marking could easily distract drivers, especially in bad weather, thinking they indicate turn lanes or who-knows-what.  In some Caribbean islands where they drive on the left side of the road, they actually reverse the road striping to help American drivers stay on the left side.  Specifically they paint a double-yellow along each of the curbs and a white stripe down the center.

 

Also, if crews dig up a portion of a street for unrelated work a year after the line is painted, would the fresh repainting of a resurfaced section of road match or not match the previous parts of the stripe?  If it did not match would this or would this not have a sloppy appearance?  If a stripe were painted over a manhole, and that manhole cover was not replaced properly, could or could not a concerned passerby strain his or her back realigning the manhole cover?  Please explain.

 

What colors do you have in mind for this stripe?  Has proper testing been done, assuring the best combination of coverage and durability?  Have you consulted Cincinnati Police or others who might be familiar with present gang color affiliations?  Please explain.   

 

The Chiquita Building used to forecast the weather via colored gels on its roof.  If you do not remember what each color signified, why not?  Why does the Chiquita Building no longer offer a color-coded weather forecast?  Only locals knew what the colors meant at the time -- so why would a Cincinnati visitor know what your painted stripe signifies? Please explain.     

 

 

 

   

From Mayor Mallory's Newsletter - February 2009:

 

Mallory Seeks Economic Stimulus Money for Cincinnati

 

Mayor Mallory recently met with President Obama to discuss implementation of the stimulus package and learn details about how cities will access the funding.

 

The Mayor has appointed a City Stimulus Coordinator to communicate with state and federal agencies and oversee the City’s project proposals to ensure that the City accesses as much funding as possible.

 

Cincinnati has submitted 127 potential projects to the State of Ohio. The projects represent over $733 million and could create as many as 11,650 new jobs.

 

Cincinnati is seeking funding in several areas including public transportation projects such as the Streetcar, foreclosure assistance programs, the hiring and retaining police officers, the renovation of fire stations, youth employment funding, and energy efficiency projects for public buildings.

 

“This is an unprecedented opportunity to bring new resources to Cincinnati,” Mayor Mallory said. “It is an opportunity to jump start multiple projects that will create jobs and energize our economy.”

 

 

<image of streetcar here>

Modern streetcar systems have generated

hundreds of millions in new real

estate investment in other cities.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/mayor/downloads/mayor_pdf35848.pdf

 

http://winburnreport.com/Winburn%20Downtown%20Trolleys.pdf

 

I just looked at this for the 2nd time.  This has got to be a joke right? I can't believe Winburn put his name on it.

 

Enviornmentally friendly- Yes uses all green energy efficient trolleys- Hybrid-electric buses, Nostalgic Green & Gold, complete with cowcatcher, wooden rails & brass bells-  :lol: Yes painting it green makes it environmentally friendly!!

12 vehicles running 10 hours a day for 365 days  I bet that the CO2 & N0x emissions from these 12 vehicles are higher or are pretty close to  that of the Streetcar emissions produced by coal.  Biodiesel  puts out about 13% more NOx ( a major contributor to photochemical smog) than regular diesel in high concentrations

 

I have a question as well, what size trolley buses are you proposing?  how many people can they hold?

These trolley's sure look spacious!! I bet I would only take up about 4 seats  with my Findlay Market groceries. 

 

Dean,

Couple of more questions.

1) Will I be able to get my bicycle on your trolley? 

2) Where does the wood come from (hopefully not imported rain forest wood) such as Jatoba,Ramin or Nyatoh which the US imports and is leading to the destruction of the world rainforests. Bamboo is a much better alternative to any wood.

3) Wood trolleys like the ones you want are notorious for buildup of Molds and bacteria which can cause health problems to the driver and riders, how will you deal with this?

 

Thanks!

LK is right . . . as usual. To 327, if we were talking about a regional rail system you might see some of the more traditional arguments against it, but since this is a core circulator it is basically a fight among urban populations. For some reason, there are middle class A/A neighborhoods that one 'could' claim are missing out on investment because of the money spent here, but that is quite specious.

^

 

These are diesel trucks with gussied-up bodies made to look like streetcars. When you consider they are in stop/go operations all the time, the emisisions are undoubtedly very, very high. And the "biodiesel", such as it is, will never be more than 10% of the volume of fuel. I bet they won't last more than 5-8 years in continuous service.

LK is right . . . as usual. To 327, if we were talking about a regional rail system you might see some of the more traditional arguments against it, but since this is a core circulator it is basically a fight among urban populations. For some reason, there are middle class A/A neighborhoods that one 'could' claim are missing out on investment because of the money spent here, but that is quite specious.

 

Specious is a good word for that.  A core circulator helps anyone who interacts with the core, or who lives in a neighborhood served by that core.  It will stabilize properties and foster new businesses that everyone can use, not just people downtown/uptown.  Not that you haven't covered that in 197 pages.  I'll be down there next month, and I can't wait to walk the proposed routes and imagine what could be.  Seems like an exciting time to live in Cincy.   

Another advantage of electric vehicles is that they can employ regenerative braking. This technology uses electric motors to stop a moving vehicle and generates electricty to send over the wires. A beneficial side effect is that it also reduces brake wear.

 

Non-electric vehicles cannot recover any power, and must dispose of it with friction brakes.

 

This is particularly an advantage in hilly areas. A Cincinnati Streetcar would use a lot of power to climb a hill, but would recover some of that power coming down. A non electric vehicle would use a lot of power to climb a hill and wear out a lot of brakes coming down.

 

I haven't done any analysis, but I would guess that an electric streetcar would consume less power than a diesel or gasoline one.

 

    This technology is over 100 years old.

 

 

^ This is how my hybrid charges its batteries. It's pretty sweet, I never thought that I'd want to brake all of the time. Could a streetcar really use this system?

it recovers 5 to 15% of total energy usage

I did a pano from the roof of the Carew Tower today.  Maybe this will help people from outside town better understand the planned route:

 

^Very cool, thanks for putting that together!

As far as the electric vs. diesel/bio-diesel there are two points I'd like to make.  The first being expected length of usage, as John touched on above.  Electric motor that recieves it's power from an outside source is going to last much longer than a diesel powered motor because it is much more simple and easier to maintain.  There are subway cars in New York that have been in use for over 20 years, for example.  There aren't any buses that have been around for as long.

 

Another small factor that I'm not sure was considered earlier when the dean presented some information concerning pollution comparisons is idling.  A diesel engine idles every time the vehicle stops, while an electric motor would not.

^ This is how my hybrid charges its batteries. It's pretty sweet, I never thought that I'd want to brake all of the time. Could a streetcar really use this system?

 

I think most trains use this system, particularly freight trains that cross the Rockies.  If you're gonna spend all that energy getting up, might as well get some going down.  Indy cars also use this system in place of alternators.  It's simple and very scaleable.

^

 

The opponents will try to make it one.

 

See:

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/sewers_clog_development/

 

They will flog this dead horse for a while just as they've tried to do with the electric power argument.

 

Sooner or later, they will run out of arguments. Or credibility. Probably both.

 

Is that all you can do?  Insult us pesky little dissenters with our bothersome questions?

 

At what point is any of that an insult?  From what I've heard of your arguments in the debate, on urban ohio, and on the beacon, you do appear to be "flogging a dead horse", while ignoring questions that you find inconvenient.  That's not an insult; it's a statement of fact.  If you don't like it, I suggest that you start addressing some of the legitmate questions people are asking about your counter proposal, and actually provide some input to those who have been attempting to answer your "bothersome questions" (your words, not mine).

how about this. any company or person who spends 1% or more of their annual income to get this thing built become part of a private streetcar club who owns the operating rights privately and only members ride for free for life and being a private club can set rates for different individuals so that when people like those from the beacon want to ride we can charge them $30.

Maybe a small portion of the funding could come from rail enthusiasts.  Straight donations probably wouldn't work, but it would be cool if the entity chosen/created to build and operate the streetcars could issue ceremonial shares of stock to anyone donating at a specified level.  The Green Bay Packers do something similar, and they make shares available every now and again.  I'd love to have a framed share that reads "The Cincinnati Streetcar Company" hanging on one of my walls.

Does anyone know if it would be possible for the Streetcar to climb Straight Street safely or not?

^Not on the street it wouldn't.  You could do an incline and make it work, but I'm guessing the costs for that are somewhat prohibitive.

Not sure if Streetcar-automobile accidents have been raised as a concern, but should you have some time and want to feel more informed, the FTA's TCRP just released a report on the state of the practice for minimizing LRT-automobile accidents. 

 

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/tcrp/tcrp_syn_79.pdf

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Thousands-Apply-for-Ohios-8-2-Billion-in-Stimulus/WM09qMKnsEaHTs3BwgZWjg.cspx

The city wants 69 million. Does this mean the remainder is covered already? 51 million?

 

I think most trains use this system, particularly freight trains that cross the Rockies.  If you're gonna spend all that energy getting up, might as well get some going down.

 

In order to recover energy on the descent, locomotives need either to be powered by a distributed electrical system via catenary, or to carry batteries to store the energy generated. American railroads in the mountains have neither. Some freight locomotives do have regenerative braking, whereby the drive motors function as generators, but the energy is simply run through large fan-cooled resistor banks on the roof of the engine housing, and the heat is just blown of into the atmosphere. It saves wear and reduces heating on the friction brakes, but it doesn't recover energy.

 

Some streetcar/light rail and trolley bus systems in hilly cities like San Francisco do feed the generated power back into the catenary system where it can be used by other vehicles ascending hills.

 

I think most trains use this system, particularly freight trains that cross the Rockies. If you're gonna spend all that energy getting up, might as well get some going down.

 

In order to recover energy on the descent, locomotives need either to be powered by a distributed electrical system via catenary, or to carry batteries to store the energy generated. American railroads in the mountains have neither. Some freight locomotives do have regenerative braking, whereby the drive motors function as generators, but the energy is simply run through large fan-cooled resistor banks on the roof of the engine housing, and the heat is just blown of into the atmosphere. It saves wear and reduces heating on the friction brakes, but it doesn't recover energy.

 

Some streetcar/light rail and trolley bus systems in hilly cities like San Francisco do feed the generated power back into the catenary system where it can be used by other vehicles ascending hills.

 

 

The new GE locomotives have battery banks and act as true hybrids.  They don't just dump the regenerative braking electricity.  I doubt, however, that this technology could be used for streetcars as the battery banks take up tons of space.

The new GE locomotives have battery banks and act as true hybrids. They don't just dump the regenerative braking electricity. I doubt, however, that this technology could be used for streetcars as the battery banks take up tons of space.

 

Not sure if this is possible, but it would be awesome if the Streetcars could use regenerative breaking and feed the generated electricity directly back into the overhead lines.  I know a lot of states allow "net metering" for homes that have solar arrays or wind turbines, but I don't know if it's possible to do this with a single overhead power line.

The new GE locomotives have battery banks and act as true hybrids.  They don't just dump the regenerative braking electricity.  I doubt, however, that this technology could be used for streetcars as the battery banks take up tons of space.

 

Are these actually in prototype or production, hauling freight, now? The last I knew, they were still in design.

 

Not sure if this is possible, but it would be awesome if the Streetcars could use regenerative breaking and feed the generated electricity directly back into the overhead lines.  I know a lot of states allow "net metering" for homes that have solar arrays or wind turbines, but I don't know if it's possible to do this with a single overhead power line.

 

Like I said above;

 

Some streetcar/light rail and trolley bus systems in hilly cities like San Francisco do feed the generated power back into the catenary system where it can be used by other vehicles ascending hills.

 

This is being done, both with streetcar/light rail systems and electric trolley buses. The power fed back into the system by braking reduces demand on power stations or substations, saving on energy costs and on emissions from generating facilities. If a system can be managed so that cars stay close to calculated schedules, operations can be planned so that the cars descending hills approximately balance the power demand of cars ascending hills. I believe San Francisco does the mechanical equivalent of this with their cable car operations, so that descending cars counterbalance ascending cars.

 

Streetcars/light rail systems have only one wire overhead, the "hot" wire, because the rail serves as the ground wire, the other side of the circuit. The same principles apply for power production and distribution.

I read on the Governor's stimulus site that the City requested $12.6 million for the streetcar but $100 million for intercity passenger rail and the Eastern Corridor Oasis rail transit.  I thought the later was not going anywhere.

 

I also saw where the Mayor said he would fight for the streetcar in his state of the City speech but what if anything did he say about the funding.  The City interviewed the vendors I believe 3 weeks ago.  Do they have the funding in hand or don't they?

 

If there is not enough funding to move the project it doesn't seem like it matters what the NAACP or Winburn says or does.

 

 

^It seems that a lot of your questions would be better directed at City Manager Dohoney or City Architect Michael Moore.

 

There are actually two separate streetcar requests that the City submitted - the $12.6M and another one for like $56M or something like that.  The smaller request can be done sooner and has a better cost per job creation ratio than the larger request.  I believe the larger request is for the larger routing that would take the streetcar all the way to the Zoo.

 

The Eastern Corridor caught me by surprise as well.

Mallory vows to fight for streetcars

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090225/NEWS0108/902250316/1055/NEWS

 

Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory promised tonight he’ll fight for the controversial $185 million streetcar project, saying the benefits are too great to allow naysayers to prevail.

 

In his State of the City address, the mayor reiterated many of his usual topics – the importance of an accurate 2010 census, the need to continue increasing recycling and the value of the Cincinnati Initiative to Reduce Violence, which officials say has led to a decrease in gang-related killings.

Here are the two separate requests, by the City of Cincinnati, for streetcar funds.

 

$12.6 million:

http://zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/article/99999999/DATABASES/90224005?appSession=335151650054951&RecordID=8040&PageID=3&PrevPageID=2&cpipage=5&CPIsortType=desc&CPIorderBy=Organization

 

$57 million:

http://zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/article/99999999/DATABASES/90224005?appSession=151151650139439&RecordID=8332&PageID=3&PrevPageID=2&cpipage=7&CPIsortType=desc&CPIorderBy=Organization

Mallory didn’t directly address the current dispute between him and leaders of the Cincinnati branch of the NAACP. That group’s full membership is scheduled to consider Thursday night a no-confidence vote in the mayor.

 

Seriously?

 

 

He said he especially wanted to thank NAACP President Christopher Smitherman, who has been leading the push for that no-confidence vote.

 

“And I look forward to collaborating with you,” he said, referring to Smitherman, “as we continue to tackle the issues facing our city.”

 

Mallory's a class act.

This article expands on the one Randy posted last night, and I am so pissed I wasn't there!

 

Mallory vows to fight for streetcars

By Jane Prendergast • [email protected] • February 26, 2009

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090226/NEWS0108/302260005&s=d&page=2#pluckcomments

 

Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory promised Wednesday night he’ll fight for the controversial $185 million streetcar project, insisting naysayers must not prevail.

 

In his State of the City address the mayor reiterated many of his usual topics – the importance of an accurate 2010 census, the need to continue increasing recycling and the value of the Cincinnati Initiative to Reduce Violence, which officials say has led to a decrease in gang-related killings.

 

His forceful comments about the streetcars drew some of the loudest applause from the crowd of more than 600 in the Duke Energy Convention Center ballroom. “The facts are clear,” he said. “Streetcars must be a part of Cincinnati’s future and we will fight to make it happen.”

I don't get it.  According to the streetcar opponents, most people agree with them, not us.  :roll:

"According to the streetcar opponents, most people agree with them, not us."

 

I think they're focusing on the Beacon and Enquirer's comments sections.  Seems to me that's where all the naysayers love to pop up, but the people who think positively about this city are more likely to be out enjoying it, instead of posting negative and hateful comments on message boards.  At least I sure hope this is how it is.  If the majority of Cincinnati feels the way that those posters do, then it is very very sad.

There is just a lack of accurate non-partisan information out there.  So by default, if you are not actively pro-streetcar, i think people are against it.

 

I mean, if you didnt know about this forum or the streetcar blog, you lived in delhi, and you just get your news form the enquirer, 700wlw, and wlwt, would you be pro streetcar?

"According to the streetcar opponents, most people agree with them, not us."

 

I think they're focusing on the Beacon and Enquirer's comments sections.  Seems to me that's where all the naysayers love to pop up, but the people who think positively about this city are more likely to be out enjoying it, instead of posting negative and hateful comments on message boards.  At least I sure hope this is how it is.  If the majority of Cincinnati feels the way that those posters do, then it is very very sad.

 

At the neighbhorhood summit, people voted that streetcars are a good investment for Cincinnati by a 2 to 1 margin

^ That is excellent!  I know there were only 600 people there, but it may also be telling that Mallory got the biggest round of applause when he said that he will fight for the streetcar.

^ That is excellent! I know there were only 600 people there, but it may also be telling that Mallory got the biggest round of applause when he said that he will fight for the streetcar.

 

And those people there tended to be community council leaders or members and some of the most active citizen in the city.

Here's a link to The Enquirer cincinati.com article about Mallory and the streetcar, if anyone's interested in adding to the comment section:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090226/NEWS0108/302260005

 

 

The local chapter of the Sierra Club is in support of the streetcar. The Green party is losing long time supporters over this issue.  :wave:

 

 

City Blights will never be pleased.  Despite whatever work he does, he continualy bashes the city, and makes ignorant claims about Cincinnati.

 

Clearly name-calling and bad spelling are the two best options to refute an opinion.  Here's a few facts - Cincinnati doesn't have a clear vision on how to expand the streetcar nor the incorporation of commuter rail and LRT into our region.  I'm sure other posters would agree that releasing job info isn't a good idea.

Are you sure about that?

 

http://urbanup.net/index.php?transportID=10

 

We had MetroMoves and other solutions, but they were defeated by clueless voters.

I actually think that the region shouldn't come up with some master plan for commuter rail and LRT at this moment beyond the streetcar, because the geographies of the region are shifting beneath our feet. By the time, the streetcar would be fully activated, other cities will have rolled out their systems and we can get a better sense of what would get us the most bang for the buck and we'd have a sense of the areas in the region that would best be able to use a big system.

Cincinnati doesn't have a clear vision on how to expand the streetcar nor the incorporation of commuter rail and LRT into our region.

 

It seems pretty clear to me!      Crystal, as a matter of fact!

 

 

I actually think that the region shouldn't come up with some master plan for commuter rail and LRT at this moment beyond the streetcar, because the geographies of the region are shifting beneath our feet. By the time, the streetcar would be fully activated, other cities will have rolled out their systems and we can get a better sense of what would get us the most bang for the buck and we'd have a sense of the areas in the region that would best be able to use a big system.

 

Dmerkow's right.  We need to think where the high growth areas in the County are going to be, both in terms of employment areas and living areas, because most of this county is built out.  That's why traditional development is following the highways north.  The streetcar should be the focus for the time being because 1) It is the only project with real legs, and it has the only government in the region (the City) with any real capability behind it; and 2) if we re-densify our core neighborhoods and connect them to the employment areas outlined in the GO Cincinnati plan, the City is much better positioned for potential regional transit routes.  My biggest problem with the MetroMoves plan was that it seemed to be focused on the suburban business areas and viewed the City almost as something of an afterthought.

Clearly name-calling and bad spelling are the two best options to refute an opinion.  Here's a few facts...

 

Tsk, tsk, since we're nitpicking,  "Here are a few facts..."

 

 

 

 

City Blights will never be pleased. Despite whatever work he does, he continualy bashes the city, and makes ignorant claims about Cincinnati.

 

Cincinnati doesn't have a clear vision on how to expand the streetcar nor the incorporation of commuter rail and LRT into our region.

 

For integrating streetcars and rail, it is pretty easy as you only have a few options of how to get rail into the CBD.

 

1. East along the river into the Riverfront Transit Center

2. West along the river into the Riverfront Transit Center

3. Across the river from Covington to a 2nd/3rd Sts. couplet

4. Across the river from Newport to a 2nd/3rd Sts. couplet

5. At or below grade on central parkway, ending at race and central

6. From the Mt. Auburn tunnel to a main/walnut couplet

7. From Gilbert through Broadway Comments to a main/walnut couplet

 

All of those options allow for direct transfers to the streetcar (although #5 only allows for a southbound transfer)

 

As for Uptown you run a Taft/McMillan couplet to Pebbles Corner and connect with the LRT there.

 

Anyone responding to the deans questions on the projects cost over on his website?

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/the_ever_changing_streetcar_costs/

I am sure the answers are somewhere in the previous 198 pages of this thread

Anyone responding to the deans questions on the projects cost over on his website?

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/the_ever_changing_streetcar_costs/

 

it's not worth the trouble.  they don't do their homework, and if you try and do it for them, they will either ignore/refuse to acknowledge or twist it.  I think that site is a lost cause for discussing the issue, unless you think convincing two people is going to make a difference.  there are better forums to debate the issue in an intelligent manner. The Beacon is certainly not one of them.