Anyone responding to the deans questions on the projects cost over on his website?

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/the_ever_changing_streetcar_costs/

 

Jason Haap has not been asking question so that he can get answers.  He is merely asking questions to ask questions.  It is a strategy to try to surround the project with doubt to those who don't have the time or energy to closely follow the facts.

 

Many of his questions have already been answered for him to turn around and pose the same question the next chance he gets.  Let them talk amongst themselves.

What about the recently studied Subway extensions(specifically completing the Walnut Street subway)? If the streetcar is built, wouldn't subway construction close the Walnut Street running portion? Would the streetcar prohibit this extension?

What about the recently studied Subway extensions(specifically completing the Walnut Street subway)? If the streetcar is built, wouldn't subway construction close the Walnut Street running portion? Would the streetcar prohibit this extension?

 

I don't know why the walnut Street tunnel would prevent streetcar on walnut street.  Streetcars only involve an excavation of about 12-18 inches from the roadway.

City Blights will never be pleased. Despite whatever work he does, he continualy bashes the city, and makes ignorant claims about Cincinnati.

 

Clearly name-calling and bad spelling are the two best options to refute an opinion. Here's a few facts - Cincinnati doesn't have a clear vision on how to expand the streetcar nor the incorporation of commuter rail and LRT into our region. I'm sure other posters would agree that releasing job info isn't a good idea.

 

Rather than checking for spelling, why don't you start checking for facts.  Phase one of the streetcar is the route from the river front, up through the CBD, and into OTR.  THE VISION TO EXPAND THE STREETCAR HAS ALREADY BEEN FORCED INTO THE PROJECT. You know, the phase going up the hill and into Clifton is phase 2 right.  The very fact that there are 2 phases shows that there is a plan for expansion. 

 

Once the streetcar gets going, city leaders will (again) look into adding light rail to Cincinnati.  It was defeated heavilly in 2002, and until we get some sort of rail transit (aka streetcar), people's views will not magically change.

 

And I'd really like to know what name I called you.  All I did was state that you make claims that are simply not true about the city.

If the streetcar were built on Walnut Street, it would make a proposed tunnel that much more difficult to build under a street with operating streetcars.

 

No one is seriously proposing a Walnut Street subway that I am aware of.

I think it would be difficult to run LRT and the streetcars along Main and Walnut concurrently.

If I remember correctly the LRT was planned to run in exclusive rights of way in the curb lanes while the street car is planned to run in the traffic lane wiht mixed traffic  as not to interfere with on street parking.  The LRT was also planned to have headways less than the 10 minutes assumed for the streetcar.

 

The LRT also requires a larger turning radius  and much larger station platforms than would the streetcars etc.

 

I don't believe the streetcar feasiblty study looked into those issues in detail.

 

    The streetcar feasiblity didn't look into those issues. The streetcar feasibility study had only a cursory look at potential expansion.

 

  What I like about the streecar feasibility study was that it proposed a reasonable project. I am somewhat discouraged that the uptown extension has gotten so much attention when the first phase isn't even designed, much less built.

 

    Assuming that the streetcar is built, it may not even be prudent to try to extend it. It may be better to add a separate system, either streetcar or light rail, that does not interchange vehicles.

 

   

City Blights ...... continualy bashes the city, and makes ignorant claims about Cincinnati.

 

Here's a few facts - Cincinnati doesn't have a clear vision on how to expand the streetcar nor the incorporation of commuter rail and LRT into our region.

 

City Blights confirms edale!  :)

The local chapter of the Sierra Club is in support of the streetcar. The Green party is losing long time supporters over this issue.  :wave:

It's funny you mention this, because the former local leader of the Sierra Club, Glen Brand was an outspoken opponent of more roads and sprawl, and a proponent of rail.  He was one of the first people I heard speaking out about this back in the Clinton era.  Too bad he left town. He wrote stuff like this:

http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/transportation/cincy.asp

 

    Here are some recent past proposals that I can think of at the moment:

 

      1. Commuter train from Downtown to Milford.

      2. Exclusive right of way from Downtown on three lines to Western Hills, Norwood, and Covington. (1975 Exclusive guidway proposal.)

      3. Light rail from CVG to Kings Island.

      4. Exclusive busway from downtown to Kings Island.

      5. Metro Moves.

      6. Eastern Corridor including a light rail line over the Little Miami River.

      7. Cincinnati Streetcar

      8. Riverfront Transit Center (this one was actually built)

      9. Fort Washington Way overpasses built to accomodate Light Rail. (This was actually built.)

      10. Sorta purchasing of abandoned railroad rights of way including the Oasis line along the Ohio River and portions of the CL&N line.

      11. The 3-C Corridor passenger rail to serve Cincinnati.

 

 

 

    Because of the large number of proposals, I have to agree that Cincinnati does NOT have a clear vision regarding expansion of the streetcar, commuter rail, or LRV.

 

    The Cincinnati Streetcar feasibility study is not as broad in scope as some of these, but it represents a reasonable, buildable project.

     

 

 

     

     

     

 

Anyone responding to the deans questions on the projects cost over on his website?

 

http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/the_ever_changing_streetcar_costs/

 

Jason Haap has not been asking question so that he can get answers. He is merely asking questions to ask questions. It is a strategy to try to surround the project with doubt to those who don't have the time or energy to closely follow the facts.

 

Many of his questions have already been answered for him to turn around and pose the same question the next chance he gets. Let them talk amongst themselves.

 

On Explore Cincinnati, I remember my number of $215 million being criticized.  If memory serves, they went with the $102 number.  If the number is $185, then I was closer to the accurate amount.

 

Part of your problem is that instead of providing clear answers, you say things like "check the other 195 pages."  Or, "read X-number of reports and get back to me."

 

This strategy will not work for you long term.  Why engage it?

 

For example, if I go to the Cincinnati Streetcar web page (a place that should have accurate information, IMHO), I find this:  " Phase 1 of the streetcar system will cost only $102 million.  "

 

Well, that is not true, is it?  Phase 1 will cost $185 million?

 

Or, was the federal government given wrong information in the request for stimulus money?

 

You can't have it all these ways...

I think that phase 1 (Banks to McMicken-OTR) is $102 and then from there up to Clifton is where you pick up the extra money. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

I think that phase 1 (Banks to McMicken-OTR) is $102 and then from there up to Clifton is where you pick up the extra money. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

You're correct. The Dean is muddying the issue deliberately. I believe the $185 submitted for the stimulus would be used on the next two phases as well, and if it was just called 'phase 1' in the request I'm sure it was an omission.

 

Dean, you're insinuating that Cincy would what? Pocket the difference between $185 and $102 and just build Phase 1? Or that all of the previous information is inaccurate and it will cost $185 just for the CBD-OTR loop?

The project is/was $102 for the downtown/otr circulator.  Originally, that was to be Phase 1 but then when City Council passed th emeasure, the stipulated an Uptown connector had to be included in Phase 1, thus bumping up 'Phase 1' to $185 million. 

 

And with all of the bids coming in below budget for the Banks, I'm guessing the same thing would happen with the streetcar if the city gets moving on it.

On Explore Cincinnati' date=' I remember my number of $215 million being criticized.  If memory serves, they went with the $102 number.  If the number is $185, then I was closer to the accurate amount.[/quote']

 

Explore Cincinnati quoted the $185 million figure, which is the cost of the system from Downtown to OTR plus the connection up to Uptown.  Not sure if we are officially calling those Phases 1A and 1B or Phases 1 and 2, but either way, that's the first part of the system.

 

For example' date=' if I go to the Cincinnati Streetcar web page (a place that should have accurate information, IMHO), I find this:  " Phase 1 of the streetcar system will cost only $102 million.  "[/quote']

 

This was probably written when Phase 1 only included the Downtown to OTR portion.  All you've succeeded at it proving that the website needs to be updated, not that we have no idea how much the project costs.

I think that phase 1 (Banks to McMicken-OTR) is $102 and then from there up to Clifton is where you pick up the extra money. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

You're correct. The Dean is muddying the issue deliberately. I believe the $185 submitted for the stimulus would be used on the next two phases as well, and if it was just called 'phase 1' in the request I'm sure it was an omission.

 

You're correct.  I have, on more than one occassion, personally informed Mr. Haap (aka The Dean) about the correct route, phasing, and respective costs of each.  The easiest and most clear breakdown can be seen here:

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/the-project/

 

This link has been provided to Mr. Haap probably a half a dozen times, maybe more.  The answers to his questions about the route, phasing, and respective costs are all right there and presented in a colorful and easy to read manner.

 

You can check out the full GoogMap version here:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111016685324550263695.0004608905e32b3f80b3a&z=13

 

And just to break it down for you once more:

 

There have been a lot of numbers thrown around for the cost of the streetcar and where it runs. This map breaks it down by section on what the project really costs. There are essentially 3 different legs in the initial phases.

 

1. [*]Banks/Downtown/Over-the-Rhine $102 million

[*]Over-the-Rhine/University of Cincinnati $30 million

[*]University of Cincinnati/Uptown/Zoo $53 million

 

And the visual:

Blue=        * Banks/Downtown/Over-the-Rhine $102 million

Teal=        * Over-the-Rhine/University of Cincinnati $30 million

Red=        * University of Cincinnati/Uptown/Zoo $53 million

I'm sure the Main/9th and Main/Central PKWY stop would be a popular one if this is built!

 

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Casino-May-Be-Built-at-Broadway-Commons/F6AJHzm240aftKswlK43jg.cspx

Does anyone know of any recent articles that say what the city of Portland (and/or other cities) thinks about their streetcars?  I'm trying to send them on to someone who isn't much of a streetcar supporter.

From the Smitherman Article on cincinnati.com

 

"But he said he has a specific goal for that meeting: to get a commitment from Mallory that he and council will support a complete development agreement with van der Haer so she can move forward with her project." (glencoe)

 

 

If I read this right, this is an issue COAST and the NAACP are in disagreement.

 

Funny, city money for a project being completed by an african american is a go per the NAACP, but public transportation in a majority black neighborhood is opposed?

 

City Blights will never be pleased.  Despite whatever work he does, he continualy bashes the city, and makes ignorant claims about Cincinnati.

 

Clearly name-calling and bad spelling are the two best options to refute an opinion.  Here's a few facts - Cincinnati doesn't have a clear vision on how to expand the streetcar nor the incorporation of commuter rail and LRT into our region.  I'm sure other posters would agree that releasing job info isn't a good idea.

 

Rather than checking for spelling, why don't you start checking for facts.  Phase one of the streetcar is the route from the river front, up through the CBD, and into OTR.  THE VISION TO EXPAND THE STREETCAR HAS ALREADY BEEN FORCED INTO THE PROJECT. You know, the phase going up the hill and into Clifton is phase 2 right.  The very fact that there are 2 phases shows that there is a plan for expansion. 

 

Once the streetcar gets going, city leaders will (again) look into adding light rail to Cincinnati.  It was defeated heavilly in 2002, and until we get some sort of rail transit (aka streetcar), people's views will not magically change.

 

And I'd really like to know what name I called you.  All I did was state that you make claims that are simply not true about the city.

 

What are these future phases i.e., what streets, what neighborhoods are they to run through, how much and when?  I like some of the ideas thomasbw came with, but I wonder what SORTA and Hamilton County are doing while all this expensive government intervention is underway.  If there was ever a time to push LRT and/or a bigger streetcar, it would be much easier to sell if stimulus funds and federal aid were footing a gaudy number.

^Seriously? Are you not reading any of the previous post before you make a comment? Take just a minute to get your answers so that people don't have to keep repeating themselves.

^Seriously? Are you not reading any of the previous post before you make a comment? Take just a minute to get your answers so that people don't have to keep repeating themselves.

 

Do these posts specify when, where and how much it will cost to get to Glenway or Peebles Corner?  I'd like to stop repeating myself as well.

I'll be posting my photos from Portland sometime this week.  In a word a visit to Portland devastates anti-streetcar arguments.  It's way beyond what I imagined.

 

South Waterfront:

 

There are about 30, yes I said 30 new condo and apartment towers like this along the streetcar line.  The streetcars are so crowded you can barely get on them:

 

I think City Blights has a point. It is hard to argue that the city sees streetcars as a step towards LRT since they haven't specifically said it (though as I've said many times I personally believe it's a step in the right direction). And while there are some general ideas for spurs, these haven't really been identified.

 

That said, it cost money to figure these things out. So it makes sense that there aren't numbers for other possible extensions. Each spur will require a study to figure out cost and best alignment.

 

So City Blights you're right, but I don't think it's necessarily an argument against the first/second phases or the system as a whole. Once the current route is implemented a study will determine where to go next. (At least that was my experience with a new LRT in St. Louis).

 

Nice pics JMeck

Unless the developments along the Portland Streetcar system as you presented were in an area as devestated as OTR, what is the comparison?  If they were, then that is a vote for the streetcar.

 

    The original Cincinnati Streetcar system was built up incrementally over the course of about 80 years, starting with some humble horse cars on single track line. Those people who put in the first lines had no idea what the city would look like in 80 years.

 

    If this Cincinnati Streetcar gets built in Over-the-Rhine, we are likely to have some surprises, either good or bad. We will certainly learn a lot, and be more prepared for the next one.

 

    You can only plan so far ahead. The best we can do is to allow for as much flexibility in the future as possible.

 

    Just build it and see what happens.

 

     

That was my point all along, that's why people against it call it a streetcar to nowhere.  There won't be enough traffic to only Music Hall or Findley Market to justify it, I don't care how many visitors want to see the orchestra.  That's why the straight line portion uptown is more important than the circular.

Clearly Glenway and Peebles Corner are as important to urban growth as dowtown/otr/clifton (sarcasm).  There is no glenway without the downtwon core, and thats where you build first.  Just because it isn't immediately focusing on the westside doesn't mean that the west side receives no benefit.  Im so sick of people thinking that neighborhoods are more important the the core.  There are no neighborhoods without a strong downtown

I probably won't use the uptown route much, maybe to go to the Zoo, get some Indian food a couple of times a week. I would use the circular through OTR/CBD every day though, probably even a couple of times a day. The uptown is not important for my transportation needs.

On the "streetcar is/is not a step towards light rail" argument, I offer the following.  Take any year of the past 25 and look at the total number of miles of rail built in cities with any type of rail and compare that to the total number of miles of rail built in cities without any rail at all. I would wager that the in at least 24 of the 25 years cities with rail built more miles of rail than cities constructing new systems.

 

We haven't had rail in 58 years. Building rail makes us more likely to build more rail, not building rail makes us less likely to build rail.

That may be true, but there is a much bigger current population base that is drawn by the uptown portion than merely a basin circulator (and it can't even be called that because it doesn't get near the New East End and over into the West End). 

>Unless the developments along the Portland Streetcar system as you presented were in an area as devestated as OTR, what is the comparison?  If they were, then that is a vote for the streetcar.

 

The Portland line travels through two large areas where there was nothing residential whatsoever.  The South Waterfront was some kind of shipping area (not unlike the big coal heaps along the Ohio River over by the 6th St. Expressway) and the other was a disused railroad yard not unlike Broadway Commons (the former CL&N yard).  The Pearl District is almost completely built-out (20+ midrise apartment buildings) and the South Waterfront (7~ high-rises) is probably overbuilt -- they will probably have some vacancies due to speculative building.  The South Waterfront is connected to downtown via the streetcar and to the big hospital complex on the hilltop via the aerial tram.  A ton of people transfer between the streetcar and the aerial tram.  I wasn't able to get very good photos from the inside of either the tram or the streetcars because they were all completely jammed with people.

 

I'm in Seattle right now having taken a break from photographing their new streetcar line, which operates the same vehicles but is a bit different.  It's not the main thing in town (the almost fully grade-separated light rail line is opening this year, including the downtown bus tunnel conversion) and starts at the north edge of downtown and heads only 1.5 miles north.  The roads in this area are wider than those in Portland so the streetcar and vehicular traffic drives a lot faster.  This former marginal area is also being filled in with high quality infill.  It's unclear how much this is being motivated by the streetcar, since there is big-time new construction in all directions, although everything built in the last 40 years along the Seattle line was built in the last 2 years or is under construction presently.

 

Portland is the better example of what would happen in Cincinnati because it would be the main game in town at least for awhile (traverse all of downtown, instead of starting at the edge like in Seattle) and would travel down similarly narrow one-way streets.  Seattle is loud, impersonal, corporate, and pedestrian unfriendly compared to Portland -- both in its downtown and in the Streetcar area.       

 

When you see how effective these modern streetcar lines are at attracting development, it makes total sense to establish a large active area in a city with a streetcar line or lines, then make plans for light rail after the downtown and adjacent areas are much stronger destinations.  The older Portland MAX light rail looks positively clunky running downtown compared to the modern streetcar.  They just built a new light rail line through downtown Portland but it's not operational yet.           

 

Portland doesn't have anything like Over-the-Rhine because the city doesn't have that same architectural style or the same type of 19th-century immigrant wave Cincinnati had.  It also doesn't appear to have had public housing anywhere close to downtown at any point in its history.  It still does have a lot of obnoxious drug addicts wandering around not unlike the Washington Park crowd but they are greatly outnumbered by taxpayers.   

 

 

^Seriously? Are you not reading any of the previous post before you make a comment? Take just a minute to get your answers so that people don't have to keep repeating themselves.

 

Do these posts specify when, where and how much it will cost to get to Glenway or Peebles Corner?  I'd like to stop repeating myself as well.

 

So since you didn't look at the map and information with it you don't know where they are being considered, right? Honestly, don't you think that getting the first phase done and ensuring that it works according to plan should be the priority? Do you want the city to go ahead and tell you where they think the streetcar system will run and how much it will cost before the first phase is even funded for? Sure we all want to hear certain things about what is going to happen in the future but be realistic. If the city was to give you a quote of how much a line running to the west side would cost now, but 10 years down the road the price is double then you would be pissed and be saying that if it couldn't be built for the original price then it shouldn't be built at all (I'm not saying you specifically, but people as a whole).

Thanks Jmeck for a wonderful report.

I think that p

I think that phase 1 (Banks to McMicken-OTR) is $102 and then from there up to Clifton is where you pick up the extra money. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

You're correct. The Dean is muddying the issue deliberately. I believe the $185 submitted for the stimulus would be used on the next two phases as well, and if it was just called 'phase 1' in the request I'm sure it was an omission.

 

You're correct.  I have, on more than one occassion, personally informed Mr. Haap (aka The Dean) about the correct route, phasing, and respective costs of each.  The easiest and most clear breakdown can be seen here:

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/the-project/

 

This link has been provided to Mr. Haap probably a half a dozen times, maybe more.  The answers to his questions about the route, phasing, and respective costs are all right there and presented in a colorful and easy to read manner.

 

You can check out the full GoogMap version here:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111016685324550263695.0004608905e32b3f80b3a&z=13

 

And just to break it down for you once more:

 

There have been a lot of numbers thrown around for the cost of the streetcar and where it runs. This map breaks it down by section on what the project really costs. There are essentially 3 different legs in the initial phases.

 

1. [*]Banks/Downtown/Over-the-Rhine $102 million

[*]Over-the-Rhine/University of Cincinnati $30 million

[*]University of Cincinnati/Uptown/Zoo $53 million

 

And the visual:

 

You're correct. The Dean is muddying the issue deliberately. I believe the $185 submitted for the stimulus would be used on the next two phases as well, and if it was just called 'phase 1' in the request I'm sure it was an omission.

 

You're correct.  I have, on more than one occassion, personally informed Mr. Haap (aka The Dean) about the correct route, phasing, and respective costs of each.  The easiest and most clear breakdown can be seen here:

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/the-project/

 

This link has been provided to Mr. Haap probably a half a dozen times, maybe more.  The answers to his questions about the route, phasing, and respective costs are all right there and presented in a colorful and easy to read manner.

 

You can check out the full GoogMap version here:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111016685324550263695.0004608905e32b3f80b3a&z=13

 

And just to break it down for you once more:

 

There have been a lot of numbers thrown around for the cost of the streetcar and where it runs. This map breaks it down by section on what the project really costs. There are essentially 3 different legs in the initial phases.

 

1. [*]Banks/Downtown/Over-the-Rhine $102 million

 

 

So do I believe Uncle Rando, or Michael Moore's application to the Federal Government?  Moore calls all of the above "Phase 1." 

[*]Over-the-Rhine/University of Cincinnati $30 million

[*]University of Cincinnati/Uptown/Zoo $53 million

I think that p

I think that phase 1 (Banks to McMicken-OTR) is $102 and then from there up to Clifton is where you pick up the extra money. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

You're correct. The Dean is muddying the issue deliberately. I believe the $185 submitted for the stimulus would be used on the next two phases as well, and if it was just called 'phase 1' in the request I'm sure it was an omission.

 

You're correct.  I have, on more than one occassion, personally informed Mr. Haap (aka The Dean) about the correct route, phasing, and respective costs of each.  The easiest and most clear breakdown can be seen here:

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/the-project/

 

This link has been provided to Mr. Haap probably a half a dozen times, maybe more.  The answers to his questions about the route, phasing, and respective costs are all right there and presented in a colorful and easy to read manner.

 

You can check out the full GoogMap version here:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111016685324550263695.0004608905e32b3f80b3a&z=13

 

And just to break it down for you once more:

 

There have been a lot of numbers thrown around for the cost of the streetcar and where it runs. This map breaks it down by section on what the project really costs. There are essentially 3 different legs in the initial phases.

 

1. [*]Banks/Downtown/Over-the-Rhine $102 million

[*]Over-the-Rhine/University of Cincinnati $30 million

[*]University of Cincinnati/Uptown/Zoo $53 million

 

And the visual:

 

You're correct. The Dean is muddying the issue deliberately. I believe the $185 submitted for the stimulus would be used on the next two phases as well, and if it was just called 'phase 1' in the request I'm sure it was an omission.

 

You're correct.  I have, on more than one occassion, personally informed Mr. Haap (aka The Dean) about the correct route, phasing, and respective costs of each.  The easiest and most clear breakdown can be seen here:

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/the-project/

 

This link has been provided to Mr. Haap probably a half a dozen times, maybe more.  The answers to his questions about the route, phasing, and respective costs are all right there and presented in a colorful and easy to read manner.

 

You can check out the full GoogMap version here:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111016685324550263695.0004608905e32b3f80b3a&z=13

 

And just to break it down for you once more:

 

There have been a lot of numbers thrown around for the cost of the streetcar and where it runs. This map breaks it down by section on what the project really costs. There are essentially 3 different legs in the initial phases.

 

1. [*]Banks/Downtown/Over-the-Rhine $102 million

 

 

So do I believe Uncle Rando, or Michael Moore's application to the Federal Government?  Moore calls all of the above "Phase 1." 

 

What difference does it make to you?  Those are the proposed routes and the cost associated with them.  Either way you'd believe whichever one better fits your agenda/argument at that point in time.

[*]Over-the-Rhine/University of Cincinnati $30 million

[*]University of Cincinnati/Uptown/Zoo $53 million

So do I believe Uncle Rando, or Michael Moore's application to the Federal Government?  Moore calls all of the above "Phase 1." 

 

I'm pretty sure you know the answer to this one so it's ridiculous that I'm even responding. Originally the proposal was for downtown/OTR so early costs reflect that segment, uptown was added after people like you and me said it would be much more viable if it connected the two employment centers of downtown and uptown, so later cost estimates reflect the larger network. Aren't you happy that the people's voice matters, and helped shaped city policy? It's all phase 1 now, but it didn't start that way. I really hope that's not too hard to wrap your head around.

 

 

Dean,

Can I get 2 wheelchairs on your Bio-trolley?

Thanks.

Thanks Jmeck for a wonderful report.

 

Ditto, answered my question!

 

 

When you see how effective these modern streetcar lines are at attracting development, it makes total sense to establish a large active area in a city with a streetcar line or lines, then make plans for light rail after the downtown and adjacent areas are much stronger destinations

 

Some of this might pre-date the streetcar in Portland (particularly strengthening downtown).  That was the intention behind the fareless square and transitway.  Then came light rail.  So Portland had a strengthening core area.  The streetcar builds on this it seems, by extending frequent transit service north of their downtown(NW Portland and Pearl District) and south into that waterfron area.

 

 

Dean, you still have not bothered to answer questions listed on pages 196 and 197 of this thread. Here are mine again:

 

I have a pesky question. How will you be refueling these rubber-wheel trolleys?

 

1.) Through conventional diesel fueling stations, that consume electricity that is 90% fed from a coal fired power plant? With diesel that is produced in a refinery 250 miles away whose sole source of energy comes from one of the dirtiest coal fired power plants in the U.S.?

2.) Through conventional diesel fueling stations, that consume electricity that is 90% fed from a coal fired power plant? With bio-diesel that increases certain aspects of pollution while reducing others?

Clearly Glenway and Peebles Corner are as important to urban growth as dowtown/otr/clifton (sarcasm). There is no glenway without the downtwon core, and thats where you build first. Just because it isn't immediately focusing on the westside doesn't mean that the west side receives no benefit. Im so sick of people thinking that neighborhoods are more important the the core. There are no neighborhoods without a strong downtown.

 

I'm not trying to get on your case, but there are a lot of people on the west side who realize what a streetcar connection could do for their neighborhoods, particularly a connection to Clifton/UC, where there currently isn't a direct connection to Price Hill.  I'm curious if, rather than going up Vine, the streetcar could move from Elm west along McMicken and then up Marshall to this dead end street called DeVotie, and thence up the hill to that new Stratford development.  Then a west side connection across Western Hills Viaduct, down Queen City Ave., then up Quebec to Warsaw might be viable in the future.

Found this on wiki. explaining how the Portland streetcar is funded:

 

Funding for the streetcar operations comes primarily from TriMet, fares, city parking revenue, and a special property tax assessed on properties near the line. Fares have been difficult to enforce because much of the line is in Fareless Square. Another source of funding for the streetcar is sponsorships of vehicles and stops, in contrast to the shorter-term advertising found on TriMet buses and MAX. Sponsoring organizations can have their name placed on the side of the vehicle, stop shelter or in the stop announcement, as well as a small advertisement placed inside the vehicle or shelter. Brochures and ticket sales can also be sponsored.

 

The fact that its free to ride over much of the route might account for it being fairly crowded?

Those are some great ideas about how to fund our streetcar

 

(WOO PAGE 200!)

When you see how effective these modern streetcar lines are at attracting development, it makes total sense to establish a large active area in a city with a streetcar line or lines, then make plans for light rail after the downtown and adjacent areas are much stronger destinations

 

Some of this might pre-date the streetcar in Portland (particularly strengthening downtown).  That was the intention behind the fareless square and transitway.  Then came light rail.   So Portland had a strengthening core area.  The streetcar builds on this it seems, by extending frequent transit service north of their downtown(NW Portland and Pearl District) and south into that waterfron area.

 

 

 

Almost sounds like you're describing cincinnati's situation

Portland's east side light rail and downtown section started operation in 1986.  The west side extension opened in 1998 which travels along that same stretch of downtown track.  The light rail line is commuter-oriented.  The streetcar line runs perpendicular to the light rail line and opened in 2001.  The South Waterfront extension opened around 2005.  The Pearl District is a mile walk from the light rail line and the South Waterfront is 2-3 miles.  Clearly the much cheaper streetcar line has been as effective as light rail would have been.     

 

Sure, there was momentum but without the streetcar the Pearl District developers would not be selling many $200K+ condos without a parking space.  On the trip we heard it right from the horse's mouth that they are not only selling condos with no parking, these are often the first ones to sell.  The building we toured charges between $20-40K for a parking spot in its garage.       

 

   

If anyone is organizing a campaign in favor of the streetcar, they need to begin the process of going out and selling the idea.  I have to say that I'm am starting to believe that if Smitherman/Finney's charter amendment gets on the ballot, it will pass (thereby banishing streetcars).  Older, relatively liberal folks that I would suspect would be in favor of such a powerful economic development tool don't seem to understand what it would do, find the cost extreme, and the route confusing.  So pro-streetcar folks need to address the following:

1) Emphasizing that the streetcar is a modern, new technology, nothing like the old trolleys, and part of a natural progression (superbuses for high density routes that are easier to enter and exit, carry more people and are more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly);

2) Showing a route map that would include prospective lines to other core neighborhoods such as Price Hill and Walnut Hills;

3) Comparisons to the City's contributions to other large capital projects (FWW rebuilding, the Banks, Stadiums [Riverfront, PBS, GAPB], the Convention Center) to give people a sense of scale about the streetcar's cost.

 

Without doing something like this, and without making personal voter contact, I suspect that the charter amendment will pass if it is on the ballot.

Quick questions...how are they planning to make transfers at Findlay and Race?  It seems like a pretty tight intersection that would be difficult to wrap a streetcar around.  Where would the shelters go?