March 4, 200916 yr Plan to attend a streetcar event in or around downtown after work on March 25th. More later. There should be some streetcar posters displayed in Bockfest hall. These things are fine, but whoever is mobilizing these events should really be planning to go after people who aren't already coming downtown and into Over-the-Rhine for these types of events. Door to door canvassing has the highest rate (about 1 persuasion for every 14 doors knocked) for persuasive voter interaction of any single means of voter contact. What the ballot issue does is change the dynamic- previously, the only people who really needed to be persuaded of the efficacy of the streetcar were a majority of members of Cincinnati City Council. Therefore the streetcar wasn't sold on a grand scale- most people who vote in City elections don't understand the issue, and while they are inclined to go along with their elected representatives, most probably would vote against it if they were in the voting booth. If the charter amendment gets on the ballot, then it must be presented as something the average voter would want. So proponents need to go out and talk to the average voter where they are.
March 4, 200916 yr ^ agreed. A promotion amongst supporters does little. agreed and agreed...and agree and agree....ad infinitum....and then we collapse on ourselves. Preaching to the choir can only go so far.
March 4, 200916 yr I sort of dropped the subject, but with the Portland system the implication was that TRIMET was subsidizing the street car to such a degree because of the Fareless Square situation. Is it the concept or projection that the Cincy streetcar would pay for operating costs mostly via the fares? That would be pretty optimistic for a US transit system as I dont think I've heard of one that is self supporting without some kind of public subsidy. I think this is a question the proponents need to be prepared to answer.
March 4, 200916 yr ^ Portland's Tri-Met subsidizes the streetcar to the extent that the streetcar replaces buses that Tri-Met would otherwise have to buy and pay to operate. I think it is a significant subsidy, maybe a third of its budget.
March 4, 200916 yr 2/3, according to a source I found online. I don't want to quibble on this, or really have any issues with the concept of an operating subsidy...yet...the operating funds issue and how much money is going to come from either Cincys transit authority or the city budget (or some other source) probably should be addressed in a pro-streetcar campaign. We are watching the Cincy situation here in Dayton as there is some serious consideration of a streetcar line here, too. Part of my questioning here is to flush out issues or engage issues that could arise in Dayton if a proposal gets traction.
March 4, 200916 yr Interesting! Keep us in the loop (start a new thread!) on the Dayton streetcar proposal. Would it be that difficult to implement it in Dayton, outside of installing the rails, since much of the overhead infrastructure is in place? I would think that outside of constructing the rail and purchasing the streetcars, that you would have a ROI much higher than standard buses?
March 5, 200916 yr In answer to Sherman: Heres' a link to an Urban Ohio thread on the Dayton heritage trolley/streetcar. For a more recent discussion elsewhere, visit this DMM thread for a streetcar in context of downtown planning.
March 5, 200916 yr Author http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/contents/comments/is_bio_diesel_a_more_sustainable_alternative/
March 5, 200916 yr ^ Good read. I was wondering how much the electric bill for the streetcars will be. I'm glad to see an article on there that doesn't read like it was written by someone who owns a tire factory.
March 5, 200916 yr I'm still less than halfway through editing my photos from Portland but I decided to post some that I have finished. First is a panoramic view of the Aerial Tram and how it and the Portland Streetcar are integrated. Although this isn't physically the end of the line, it is the functional layover spot. This means the streetcars sit here for a few minutes to allow passengers from the aerial tram to board. Also, there is a short section of single track between the South Waterfront and the other waterfront development between it and downtown Portland. The aerial tram is about two miles south of downtown. The residential towers at left are all brand new and mostly out of sight of downtown. The line currently extends about 2,000 feet beyond this point: The aerial tram also attracts a lot of bikers. Some even take their bikes on the tram up to the hospital. They have signs posted that warn bikers of the tracks, but I asked one if he had ever heard of someone wiping out on the tracks and he said no. Naysayers, get an eyeful of this: Portland Mayor Sam Adams, who is a big transit supporter and helped get the aerial tram built, after having just gotten off the Max light rail (train visible in back): A typical crowd on the streetcar: A view in The Pearl District, looking back toward downtown. All the highrises in this shot were built in the last five years, including the art deco one on the right: A view toward the north side of The Pearl District, although many more new condos to the right are not visible in this frame. Again, everything in this shot is new except for a few of the obvious older structures at center:
March 5, 200916 yr GREAT photos. Keep them coming. That last shot ALMOST looks like OTR as far as density and heights are concerned....I had to do a double take when I first saw it.
March 5, 200916 yr Please keep these coming. Are you going to do anything with these images Jake? These would be very useful for a Cincinnati streetcar promotion web-site.
March 5, 200916 yr Oregon also had a lot growth from their logging industry which they have basically decided to kill for environmental reasons. The Pacific NW is also the most atheistic region in the country - not judging. It tends to attract a certain kind of cosmopolitan type and it was a place lots of Californians fled to which set parts of their economy out of joint from local conditions (i.e. lots of in-migration by people who sold their houses during the Calif. real estate boom, but have been hard-pressed to find jobs or live off the wealth they took away from Calif.). Cincinnati needs a street car to become the best Cincy it can be, not so it can become another Portland.
March 6, 200916 yr From the Enquirers' Politics Extra Blog "Also Thursday, the federal government began to distribute mass transportation money for state and local infrastructure projects, totaling nearly $180 million for Ohio, including more than $20 million in the Cincinnati region. More details from the federal level can be found at www.recovery.gov." It's hard to find what specific project this would go to, but what else could it be?
March 7, 200916 yr I believe the 20 million or so for Mass Transit will go to SORTA, TANK and the smaller suburban systems for both operational assistance and for capital expenditures for their bus fleets, shops and communications. I believe OKI has a list of these expenditures. This funding would not be targeted for the streetcar. OKI has a public meeting on the stimulus funding etc on Monday night. May be worth attending to see how the streetcar may fair in all of this. Should also be on the state's web page
March 8, 200916 yr I toured the subway tunnels this afternoon AND I saw the "support cincy streetcars" Cinciditarod team so I'd say I'm a little excited about getting rail started in Cincinnati!
March 8, 200916 yr I'm not sure if any of you were at the Bockfest parade on Friday night (started at Arnolds, went north up Main to Liberty and back down Clay to 12th), but there were two groups that had streetcar floats. As we walked along with the parade, we saw quite a few people cheering when they saw the "Cincinnati Streetcar"s go by. It was heartening to see people cheering for this project after reading so many anti-streetcar messages on the Enquirer's website :-)... Ben.... "Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett
March 8, 200916 yr “What’s good about living downtown? Public transportation,” said OTR resident Melinda Voss. “If we continue to ignore that need, we will turn into a Detroit. A city without an urban core is a scary picture.” Every member of her team is a supporter of Cincinnati streetcars, a project that has become a hot topic in the city. See: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090307/NEWS01/303070048
March 8, 200916 yr I toured the subway tunnels this afternoon AND I saw the "support cincy streetcars" Cinciditarod team so I'd say I'm a little excited about getting rail started in Cincinnati! hahaha I laughed so hard when I saw their vehicle parked outside of my garage entrance on Clay Street. "OTR Supports Streetcars"!
March 8, 200916 yr I'm not sure if any of you were at the Bockfest parade on Friday night (started at Arnolds, went north up Main to Liberty and back down Clay to 12th), but there were two groups that had streetcar floats. As we walked along with the parade, we saw quite a few people cheering when they saw the "Cincinnati Streetcar"s go by. It was heartening to see people cheering and for this project after reading so many anti-streetcar messages on the Enquirer's website :-)... Ben.... People who are negative Nancies on the Enquirer tend not to venture anywhere near Cincinnati sans for work. And visit Over-the-Rhine? You need to drug em' up first.
March 9, 200916 yr Foes of public transport have history here Author claims opponents sidetracked economic progress http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090309/NEWS01/903090343/1055/NEWS Anytime anyone wants to lay some tracks for public transportation in Cincinnati, they face an uphill fight. And that's not just because of the city's hilly topography. Naysayers presenting themselves as voices of progress or fiscal conservatism have a long history of derailing these projects. Stick-in-the-muds in the 1920s sunk the Queen City's never-completed subway system. From 1872 to 1948, they gradually grounded the inclines climbing five of the Queen City's hills. Today, critics aim to short-circuit the $185 million streetcar system proposed by Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory.
March 9, 200916 yr Is this exclude the streetcar form federal money? http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/03/02/daily79.html
March 9, 200916 yr Foes of public transport have history here Author claims opponents sidetracked economic progress http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090309/NEWS01/903090343/1055/NEWS Anytime anyone wants to lay some tracks for public transportation in Cincinnati, they face an uphill fight. And that's not just because of the city's hilly topography. Naysayers presenting themselves as voices of progress or fiscal conservatism have a long history of derailing these projects. Stick-in-the-muds in the 1920s sunk the Queen City's never-completed subway system. From 1872 to 1948, they gradually grounded the inclines climbing five of the Queen City's hills. Today, critics aim to short-circuit the $185 million streetcar system proposed by Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory. I thought the Depression killed the subways?
March 9, 200916 yr I thought the Depression killed the subways? I've read that it was inflation post WWI. The money the city got before the war for construction wasn't worth nearly as much when the time came for finishing it. They weren't able to ever get enough money to finish building at the inflated dollar amount. I think they needed almost double what they had.
March 9, 200916 yr at any rate, the claim that conservative "stick in the mud's" killed it is way off
March 9, 200916 yr at any rate, the claim that conservative "stick in the mud's" killed it is way off Sure about that???
March 10, 200916 yr Keep it on topic. Discuss the merits of the proposed streetcar plan and your opinions on it. These sidebar discussions about the relationship of crime, who started the debate first, who's been involved with what, who is who, and so on aren't valuable to the discussion as a whole. Please stay civil, and please stay on topic.
March 10, 200916 yr Wedding gift? A streetcar http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090309/NEWS0108/903100318/1055/NEWS As they planned their Saturday wedding, Kristen Myers and Chris Heckman knew they didn't need a toaster or blender. So, true to their urban lifestyles and love for downtown Cincinnati, they suggested their guests give to what they think is a great cause: the streetcar project. "We thought that we should do something that was kind of near and dear to our hearts," said Myers, 29, a civil litigation lawyer. "What better place than when you have a captive audience of 260 wedding guests?"
March 10, 200916 yr how are we supposed to discuss streetcars without being allowed to talk about their impact on crime, and who opposes/supports them in the community? i dont even know what you guys pruned from somebodys post but judging on stuff thats been cut in the past and what you wrote up there it sounds like just something you disagree with because you're all just the opposite extreme of the beacon. im so done visiting this site if this is how its gonna be. this is getting to be a joke.
March 10, 200916 yr The Cincinnati Beacon - The newly anti-streetcar, anti-portland blog about homeless people in Cincinnati and how we should end homelessness, but until then, we'll still scare you with pictures of homeless people riding a streetcar, written by a fictional character.
March 10, 200916 yr In reply, the discussions that were ensuing were veering off-topic and really were quite degrading. It's fine to constructively disagree, but when you make bold statements or analogies to streetcars and murders, rapes, muggings or what have you, then you cross the line and posts will be removed. It's fine to discuss possible crime impacts on the streetcar, but don't start making wild, fantastical analogies that are completely unsupported by any factual source. And don't rail and wail on moderators or other users (to everyone); comment on content instead.
March 10, 200916 yr I've been reading a lot on the fear of crime in the 60s and 70s (in NYC and Philly). The number one place that everyone feared for their lives was on the subway - far and away. However, streetcars have none of the intrinsic problems that subways have with underground crime. In fact, their integration into the urban environment makes them likely safer than walking along the street.
March 10, 200916 yr ^ This is very true. So far as I know, there has never been a serious crime on the Portland Streetcar. My feeling is, unless you are a principal city of the world, or you need to tunnel through a mountain, rail transit is best left at grade.
March 10, 200916 yr I think for the visibility purposes alone, routing light rail through the subway tunnels would be a bad idea. I'm the type who -- if there is land available -- would like to see the infrastructure above ground. That, and the antiquated design of the subway would result in some dank, cramped spaces.
March 10, 200916 yr how are we supposed to discuss streetcars without being allowed to talk about their impact on crime, and who opposes/supports them in the community? i dont even know what you guys pruned from somebodys post but judging on stuff thats been cut in the past and what you wrote up there it sounds like just something you disagree with because you're all just the opposite extreme of the beacon. im so done visiting this site if this is how its gonna be. this is getting to be a joke. This is a transportation item. Discuss the transportation item. If you want to discuss its sociological impacts and ramifications on other loosely related items then so be it...but there better be actual evidence to support your claims and it better be done in a reasonable manner. Debate over who started the streetcar debate first isn't helpful and only leads to personal attacks and hearsay. As I told DanB, this isn't about whether you agree or disagree with the project, it's about keeping the discussion on topic and civil. I would venture to say that the majority of the comments I deleted were actually pro-streetcar, but were aggressive in nature to those who are anti-streetcar (i.e. DanB, The Dean of Cincinnati). Keep the thread on topic and keep it civil. There is a reason so many people come to UrbanOhio for news, information, and data and it's not because we allow mudslinging and sweeping generalizations to stand.
March 11, 200916 yr Had a conversation with my grandfather today about the streetcars. He doesn't understand the point of them and didn't understand how someone like me, who does not live downtown or along any of the proposed routes could benefit or support them. I showed him the most recent blog post about events going on downtown that would be serviced by the streetcar: Reds Games- 81 per year Bengals Games- 10 per year Cyclones Games- 36 per year UC Basketball Games- 17 per year UC Football Games- 7 per year Riverfest Macy’s Holiday Dazzle Macy’s Music Fest St. Patrick’s Day Black Family Reunion Oktoberfest Bockfest Midpoint Music Festival Music Now Festival Taste of Cincinnati Cincinnati Fringe Festival May Festival Paddlefest Mardi Gras at the Market National Cornhole Championships Bluesfest Hispanic Festival Earth Day Celebration; and The Opening Day Parade (you would probably have a streetcar in the parade). The ones bolded are events I know that I will for sure being going to or events I attended this year, definitely multiple Reds games, most definitely multiple Cyclones games. Whether down there for personal enjoyment or on a photo assignment it would be so nice if I only had to park once and could just hop around on the streetcar for a small fare rather than another 5 - 10 bucks to park my car. The most perfect example I can think of was this past winter some friends and I had beers and food at Rock Bottom Brewery at Fountain Square before the Cyclones game. If a streetcar existed, we could've just ridden that down to U.S. Bank Arena, instead with it being winter and walking not a good option, we had to all hop back in a car and pay another 10 bucks to park since all the public landing spots were taken. Just think how beneficial streetcars would be to visitors downtown, this all seems like such a no brainer. They would make downtown and downtown events so much more inviting.
March 11, 200916 yr I don't have time to check the thread in detail so I don't know if this has been posted. It's a nice little video about the streetcar in Seattle. http://sf.streetsblog.org/2009/03/10/streetfilms-take-a-ride-on-the-seattle-streetcar/ Sorry, couldn't find an embed link.
March 11, 200916 yr Hmmm that "Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel" with all the buses looks eerily similar to the Riverfront Transit Center here.
March 11, 200916 yr Had a conversation with my grandfather today about the streetcars. He doesn't understand the point of them and didn't understand how someone like me, who does not live downtown or along any of the proposed routes could benefit or support them. Funny thing is that my grandfather often talks about the days when Cincinnati had streetcars. He mentions how they would take them to get downtown, and then hop on the Delta Queen to get over to Coney Island and dance the night away at Moonlight Gardens. Or how on Sundays, his parents would give him and his siblings 50 cents and they'd go downtown to get a soda via the streetcars...this 50 cents would cover their fare to/from downtown and their soda costs. On especially good weeks they would get a little extra and catch a movie downtown as well. I haven't yet discussed this contemporary proposal with my grandfather, but I would presume he would like the idea given his history.
March 11, 200916 yr My grandfather in a way shares similar stories. He grew up in New York and eventually raised his family on Long Island. The New York City Subway was his main means of travel for a good part of his life, yet now in Cincinnati he won't support any form of light rail or public transportation of the sort. He's very conservative with his money and I think the huge costs of Paul Brown, GABP, the attendance let down that is the freedom center and the delays of The Banks really left a sour taste in his mouth. He is right on the Hamilton County line and always complains about their taxes, lol. From my understanding though, isn't the first phase of the streetcar to be paid for by already available public funds and private donations?
March 11, 200916 yr Despite what Don Draper says about the power of nostalgia, this thing needs to be presented as progress and improvement, not a trip down memory lane or something we moved down from the zoo. Any insider have any idea where this thing is at?
March 11, 200916 yr From my understanding though, isn't the first phase of the streetcar to be paid for by already available public funds and private donations? Public money is coming from proceeds of the Blue Ash Airport sale, TIF money along the route, and some capital budget money. The rest of the money (more than half) will come from private sources or money not yet seen from federal or state sources.
March 12, 200916 yr The City Manager was supposed to give a report on the private money he was able to collect in early 2009 (Jan or early Feb). The fact that he hasn't reported yet says to me that he wasn't able to get the funds. Let's hope the stimulus comes through, or this whole project could be derailed.
March 12, 200916 yr When the company that I work for had us working on Westwood avenue we had to dig holes in the road that often had the old rails right in the way. That got me wondering, could those old rails be dug back up and reused? Would they have to upgrade them or just rip them out all together? Sorry if this has already been asked but I've been thinking about it a lot today.
March 12, 200916 yr ^ We can't use the old rails. They are in the center of the street. ADA requirements pretty much force boarding to happen at the curbs. Plus they're probably bolted rail rather than welded rail. The ride quality wouldn't be car-competitive. I suspect most of them would just be left in place, undisturbed.
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