Yeah... at 56, he's right on the brink of curmudgeondom... :-P

Indeed. There's a strong chance that the streetcar could be voted down.

 

Again, it doesn't help that the proposal is more expensive than it needs to be. People are legitimately sick of the government's overspending. It's a damn shame that one of the few useful ideas is going to bear the brunt of this backlash.

My opinion is that the streetcar advocates, myself included, have all the facts,figures, and tables going for them.  But in general (not talking about the people on here because you guys I know have done your part), we've done a lousy job selling our product.  I was just on the cincinnati.com article and people are asking the same generic questions about buses vs streetcars, anti-rail, rail is 19th century common misconceptions that they were asking months ago.  We are sitting back and allowing 700wlw and everyone to continue to spew these half truths.  I know people on here have done a great job at getting the word out, and I realize were up against 700 and the Smitherman agenda. But  Somehow, someway, we have to get the people thinking and researching for themselves.  To actually get them to read the studies, and not just listen to the hate on 700.  If Smitherman and his goons have their way and put it on the November ballot, there's no way its passing at this rate.

Yeah... at 56, he's right on the brink of curmudgeondom... :-P

 

There you go, trying to impress us with your ability to add and subtract!!  ;)

 

But you have already impressed me with your Premium Member Status!  Not bad for someone who is a student or a recent graduate!!!  Good job!

The Mallory press conference was solid -- he called out the media for not having done their homework on this issue.  We'll see how the Enquirer, et al, respond.

Doesn't sound like much new information came out of Mallory's press conference today, judging from the Enquirer's article.  They've added a poll on the story though.  Show your support:

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090728/NEWS0108/307240040/1055/NEWS/Mayor+touts+streetcars

For some reason it won't let me vote. Anybody else having that problem? The number of "yes" votes so far is encouraging, though.

 

The Inkwire had a similar poll back when Newport passed a resolution in favor of eventually linking up with the streetcar system, and the results were heavily in favor.

Got my two cents in!

The Mallory press conference was solid -- he called out the media for not having done their homework on this issue.  We'll see how the Enquirer, et al, respond.

 

We shall see... For some reason they didn't mention that part of the speech in their article.  Somehow I'm not expecting a major turnaround.  The facts are something the Enquirer doesn't seem too terribly concerned about.

Nevermind... I tried a different browser and the poll works fine.

The Mallory press conference was solid -- he called out the media for not having done their homework on this issue. We'll see how the Enquirer, et al, respond.

 

We shall see... For some reason they didn't mention that part of the speech in their article. Somehow I'm not expecting a major turnaround. The facts are something the Enquirer doesn't seem too terribly concerned about.

 

Actually, you'll note if you read it again, they did mention that part, they called him "combative". This is how the "inquirer" labels people who point out the fact that they are deceptive and largely biased against the City of Cincinnati. Someone on here mentioned earlier about how we have all the facts to prove the benefit of the streetcar, but haven't been able to effectively communicate them to the electorate in the city. Since the members of the media are obviously not interested in these facts, does anyone know if there's some TV spots, or public rallies, or anything else in the works? This message has got to get beyond the people who read this forum and their friends! Maybe Cincinnatians for Progress needs to have a rally on the Square!

Nevermind... I tried a different browser and the poll works fine.

Probably cookies

Actually, you'll note if you read it again, they did mention that part, they called him "combative".

 

I'm amazed they didn't just come right out and call him "uppity."

BlauBaum

 

A rally on the square would be a great idea! I agree the word has to be actively put out to the citizens.

an Enquirer reader poll is about as useful as tits on a mule...that said, after 4,000+ votes, I'll take this margin any day.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Do you support a streetcar system for Cincinnati?

 

Yes

 

  (2545) 62.1%

 

No

 

  (1456) 35.53%

 

Unsure

 

  (97) 2.37%

 

 

Total Votes: 4098

 

^

 

Anyone care to bet whether the results of this poll will appear in the print edition of tomorrow's Enquirer?

BlauBaum

 

A rally on the square would be a great idea! I agree the word has to be actively put out to the citizens.

There was going to be an event awhile back on Fountain Square at lunchtime catering to office workers, etc. that would promote the Streetcar and answer questions that people had about the proposal, putting people's fears to rest.  However it was canceled and was going to be rescheduled closer to election time.  Haven't heard anything about it recently though.

Maybe Cincinnatians for Progress needs to have a rally on the Square!

 

Stay tuned...

Hey all-

 

Cunningham has someone on his show trying to tear apart the streetcare "expert".  Can anyone call in?  I cant right now

O'Toole sounds like he knows what he is talking about.

O'Tool sounds like somebody who works for the Cato Institute and jerks off to Ayn Rand novels. Oh that's right, he does.

 

Streetsblog: The Imminent Irrelevance of Randal O’Toole

Maybe, but he made a lot of sense about the type of area the Portland system is in, and the tax breaks owners got to rehab this area, and how this area is nothing like OTR; and how transit ridership in the city has actually gone down.  True or false, real or not, he makes a lot of sense to the listener.

That mis-information is dangerous...expecially on this issue

So he's a persuasive speaker?  History has been full of them...it doesn't make them correct.   

and thats all that matters?  That irrelevant facts and straight up lies "make a lot of sense"??  As long as misinformation is repeated enough over the "big one" it become fact, right?

 

This is so ridiculous- people honestly don't understand that unless the city does something to attract tax money for future benefit, this "budget crisis" will never end

O'Tool's "facts" and ideas have been completely discredited many times over. He only "makes sense" to those who have a vested interest in seeing the city fail, or those too gullible or too stupid to do any critical thinking of their own.

 

Being a good speaker doesn't make him right (ask anybody who dislikes Obama), and the fact that people are easily swayed by him -- despite the fact that everything coming out of his mouth is horseshit -- is exactly why infrastructure planning should be left in the hands of people who actually have a clue about infrastructure, and not be turned into a popularity contest via referendum.

I would wager that many of the people against the streetcars that will call in to WLW aren't even from the city at all. I quit listening to WLW three years ago and my life was better for it.

You guys crack me up.  You better come up with better answers than calling everything lies because you believe in someone elses lies!  Insulting the public is always a good way to win support for your cause!

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Show me some credible facts that refute the pro-streetcar argument, and then we'll talk. People who willingly spout made-up "facts" they know to be wrong are called liars, because that's what they do. Don't like being called a liar? Then don't lie. Seems pretty simple.

You guys crack me up. You better come up with better answers than calling everything lies because you believe in someone elses lies! Insulting the public is always a good way to win support for your cause!

 

Didn't you just say that you are unsure if O'Toole is telling the truth, yet he makes sense?

I didn't say I was unsure, I don't know enough about it either way.  I just said he sounded like he made sense.

I didn't say I was unsure, I don't know enough about it either way. I just said he sounded like he made sense.

 

I wonder if DanB is so sympathetic to Randal O'Toole because they are both paid anti-transit operatives.

Oh yeah, don't forget I do get paid for this!

The thing about Portland developers' getting all kinds of subsidies ... I ask people about that all the time when I go there. I've put the question to many developers, architects, even the mayor of Portland.

 

Here's the deal: Portland doesn't subsidize "for sale" condo product like we do in Cincinnati, where we buy down the cost of some units, I hear, by $30,000 to $50,000 to make the numbers work.

 

Portland does subsidize low-income housing because they value diversity and want to keep a complete workforce in the city. They also subsidize housing for persons with disabilities.

 

People have gotten into O'Toole's data and found it to be bogus. He counts any non-private spending as a "subsidy." So ... Portland builds a new wing for contemporary art at its Art Museum, he calls that a subsidy. Portland tears down an obsolete, crumbling viaduct that formerly bisected the Pearl District, that's a subsidy. Portland State builds a dorm by the streetcar line -- you guessed it, subsidy.

 

I once asked a partner in one of the big development companies that has projects all along the streetcar line how much subsidy he got for the "Brewery Blocks", which was one of the first projects in the Pearl District. You'd expect, being a pioneer in that area, that he would have gotten a big subsidy for helping to kick things off there. He looked at me like I had two heads or something. I mean, he didn't even understand the concept. So I explained, "Did the City of Portland" give you money to put up this building?" He thought for a while and guessed that maybe they got a million or so dollars to replace all the sidewalks and plant street trees in this multi-block project. You know, so the public can enjoy them.

 

Rather that directing money inside buildings to the private realm of developers like we do here, Portland puts its money in the public realm -- rebuilding water mains, sewers, streets (including closing some streets), the aerial tram, and, yes, the Portland Streetcar.

 

I'm sure there is an exception somewhere, but this is the general truth about things out there.

 

Opponents like O'Toole trying to conflate the subsidy argument because they have nothing left to work with. They need to explain-away what's happening in Portland. They can no longer deny that high-quality development is happening all along the streetcar line, so they prey on peoples' lack of information.

 

By the way, Portland is getting $20 million more per year in property taxes in the TIF district along the streetcar line than what they once thought they would be getting.

 

So who is subsidizing whom?

 

One final thing on O'Toole. He moved from the two-stoplight town of 2,000 people where he used to live to a town of 300, both far-distant from any large city. Where people decide to live often reveals as much about them as anything else. So this is the guy WLW calls up to talk about urban policy?

By the way, Portland is getting $20 million more per year in property taxes in the TIF district along the streetcar line than what they once thought they would be getting.

 

So who is subsidizing whom?

 

Exactly. The Cato people claim to be all about the free market, yet they can't seem to comprehend the idea of spending money to make money.

 

If you spend $1M to start a business and make $200,000 profit per year, your investment has paid for itself after five years, and that's usually considered a good thing (unless your name is Bernie Madoff or Kenneth Lay).

 

If a city spends $100M on a streetcar line and rakes in $20M more per year in property taxes than they would have made otherwise, they've paid for the streetcar and are now collecting free money after five years. That money gets used for things like, say, police and firefighters and better schools, and reduces the need for the city to raise taxes to pay for that stuff. But that's evil socialism.  :wtf:

Tracy Jones just said 8 of 9 councilmen are opposed to the streetcar. 

Tracy Jones just said 8 of 9 councilmen are opposed to the streetcar.

 

That's not a lie; that's just a difference of opinion!

Yeah, we're just "blaming the media":

 

http://gocoast.org/CoastBlog/tabid/162/EntryId/8/-Progress-Blame-the-media.aspx

    Borrowing money makes a good business better, but it makes a bad business worse. If the streetcar is built and it fails, we are going to be in worse shape than if we didn't build it at all. It is very conceivable that Cincinnati will build the streetcar, which will in turn attract some development, and Cincinnati will end up with less tax income than before.

 

      The basic question is, "How much new development will come as a result of the streetcar."  I don't think it's legitimate to assume that we will get the same development that has occured in Portland without also comparing their school policy, their utility policy, their tax policy, etc.

 

      If Cincinnati invested as much into infrastructure in Over-the-Rhine as they do in the outer suburbs I don't think we would need to discuss the streetcar. Can you blame developers for building in Florence, West Chester, Liberty Township, etc., when the infrastructure there is subsidized?

Be careful, as they say, if it can work in Portland, it will work here.  We are not allowed to question that.

HDR- Cincinnati Streetcar Feasibility Study

 

HDR- Cincinnati Streetcar Economic Impact Study

 

University of Cincinnati Streetcar Study Evaluation

 

City of Cincinnati Streetcar Presentation

 

City of Cincinnati Climate Action Plan (pg. 52)

 

Growth and Opportunities Study of the City of  Cincinnati (pg. 61)

 

Agenda 360 (pg. 20)

 

If you have any credible studies that refute the conclusions of these reports, please post them here so we can take a look at them. COAST's goons can take all the potshots they want, but so far they have yet to produce one shred of independent research that contradicts anything in these reports. Put up or shut up.

Sorry I took so long to respond, I was busy laughing at you.  IT IS A STUDY!!!  There is nothing concrete in it!  We do studies all the time, sometimes they are right, sometimes the product fails.  The estimate income in 2015 at $0.50 fare is a whopping $1,000,000!!!!!  In 200 years it will pay for itself!!!

 

Your goons can take all the potshots you want, but so far you've produced not one shred of fact!

 

Oh, by the way, this study was brought to you by the same people who thought the Skywalk was ahead of its time!!!!!

 

I don't think I'm ready to shut up, but hey, thanks for asking.

Well since there will be very littre or no gas in 40 years. Your 200 years is way off. This system will also prepare people to use public mass transit.

We'll all be in Jetson style hover craft by then.

Tracy Jones just said 8 of 9 councilmen are opposed to the streetcar.

 

Well Tracy would know a lot about the issue and transit systems in general. I mean, as a baseball player he sucked so bad that he was traded around quite often and got to see a lot of cities and how they operate their public transit.

 

He also said that the streetcar "wasn't working in Long Beach." Yet, the Metro Blue Line running through Long Beach isn't comparable to the proposed Cincinnati system and has some of the highest ridership on the Los Angeles area light rail line.

 

Thanks Tracy, for showing us you not only know nothing about baseball or parenting, but also know nothing about transit.

 

 

You might say he was "highly desired" by those other teams, but you prefer to look at the negative side of everything.

Sorry I took so long to respond, I was busy laughing at you.  IT IS A STUDY!!!  There is nothing concrete in it!  We do studies all the time, sometimes they are right, sometimes the product fails.  The estimate income in 2015 at $0.50 fare is a whopping $1,000,000!!!!!  In 200 years it will pay for itself!!!

 

Your goons can take all the potshots you want, but so far you've produced not one shred of fact!

 

Oh, by the way, this study was brought to you by the same people who thought the Skywalk was ahead of its time!!!!!

 

I don't think I'm ready to shut up, but hey, thanks for asking.

 

Of course they're studies, because the project hasn't been built yet. If you want something "concrete", you'll have to travel into the future and collect historic data. These studies are by done by reputable outside consultants who do this stuff professionally, and they don't have any incentive to make stuff up or tell the city only what it wants to hear. That's a quick way to end up in litigation, and a quick way for elected officials to find themselves out of office and/or under indictment.

 

I've personally overseen similar feasibility studies for over $500M worth of transit construction here in the NYC area, and that involves collecting data, doing research, drawing conclusions, and distilling the information into a format that our clients can understand. That often involves informing our client of unpleasant things they'd rather not know about, but that's why they hire us. If they wanted to sugar-coat something, they'd call their own PR people instead of hiring consultants who have a legal responsibility to protect the safety and welfare of the general public.

 

We must be doing something right, because we still have work and are hiring people while most other firms are laying people off, and we have a long list of awards going back almost half a century. We work with some of the national firms involved with the streetcar project, and their professionalism is consistently top-notch.

 

If your studies have such a bad track record, maybe that's a testament to your own incompetence instead of a valid commentary on the process itself. And of course, urban transportation planning is just like trying to figure out if people will buy a new brand of soap. :roll:

 

Mayor Mallory gave us the Skywalk? That's news to me. The Skywalk was a product of 1970's anti-urban thinking that thought downtown could succeed by turning itself into a suburban-style enclosed shopping mall, and that's the same outdated anti-urban orthodoxy that opposes the streetcar. It was dead-wrong then, and it's still dead-wrong now.

No, given his performance back then, I'd say he was a so-so player, hardly someone who would've been "highly desired."

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonestr01.shtml

 

Went on "Exploring Cincinnati" today to talk with Travis Estell about www.queencitydisco.com and we had a little bit of a discussion about the Cincinnati Streetcar and the WLW call by Mallory today. THe podcast should be up on www.explorecincinnati.com later today

 

"I've personally overseen similar feasibility studies for over $500M worth of transit construction here in the NYC area, and that involves collecting data, doing research, drawing conclusions, and distilling the information into a format that our clients can understand."

 

Comparing a NYC transit study to one in Cincinnati?  A city with a complete culture of mass transit to one that won't even ride the bus!

 

And yes, it is just like selling soap.

 

    The Cincinnati Go study recommends rail transit between Downtown and the U.C. area. But guess what else it says?

 

 

    "65% of the City's workforce lived outside the city as of the 2000 U.S. Census. This is already evident in the change from the 1990 Census when 62% of the City's workforce lived outside the city.

 

    The City's population is about 14% of the Metro's population, down from 20% in 1990. This is of particular concern because the region as a whole did not grow in proportion. Bottom line: there are significantly fewer people contributing to the City's tax base.

 

    The city is losing office market share.

 

    the city is losing industrial market share.

 

    The city is losing residential market share due to aggressive development of housing projects in perimeter areas, particularly in the river cities in Northern Kentucky.

 

    Businesses are increasingly locating outside of Cincinnati's CBD.

 

    Growth segments for office space are those that offer modern amenities, amply amounts of surface parking, competitive lease rates and proximaty to swaths of executive housing. Cincinnati can compete for this market share by providing these types of structures in the city limits.

 

    Market demand for industrial space seeks access to transportation resources, layout, loading docks and other functional elements and are usually lower in value than other space.

 

Cincinnati is losing share in the premier residential market to suburban locations and is losing ground to Northern Kentucky in the luxery high-rise multifamily market. This is despite the fact that Cincinnati has a historical competitive advantage in its distinctive walkable urban places that other surrounding areas lack.

 

But while walkable urban development gives the City a competetive advantage, the real estate market analysis demonstrated that the City does not have sufficient drivable sub-urban office and industrial product within its municipal boundaries, keeping it from competing for the major driver of growth for commercial development. By not offering this drivable sub-urban real estate product, the City is not benefiting from certain kinds of growth taking place in the region. "

 

  The study then suggest that the best way to increase tax revenue is to promote new drivable, sub-urban type development in Queensgate, Madison Road area, and Seymour area.

 

   

 

   

The city is losing residential market share due to aggressive development of housing projects in perimeter areas, particularly in the river cities in Northern Kentucky.

 

So, why don't we do invest in something that will keep people in the city rather than letting I-75 turn Cincinnati and Dayton into one giant suburb?