I would rather see federal monies used for the first phase, let the system work itself out and see how it performs in terms of ridership and in attracting new developments along its route (as the case with other cities). If it lives up to its promise, apply for additional monies or grants to extend the line elsewhere.

I would rather see federal monies used for the first phase, let the system work itself out and see how it performs in terms of ridership and in attracting new developments along its route (as the case with other cities). If it lives up to its promise, apply for additional monies or grants to extend the line elsewhere.

 

Want to wait until 2014 at the earliest? That the length of the Federal process in an increasingly long pipeline of forty-some streetcar projects now in planning across the U.S.

Well, if construction begins in 2010, that would give a small opening for the Cincinnati streetcar system to work out its kinks and see if it is viable for the long term (not just in passenger numbers).

 

Is there a list of all the streetcar projects? I'm interested in seeing this. I know that Huntington (W.Va.) had proposed one a few years back but I believe it is dead.

I don't know where you'd find an accurate global list of all U.S. streetcar projects. Try Jeff Wood at Reconnecting America.

 

We're hoping construction begins next year, and the streetcar is placed in service in 2010. Seeking Fed funds would delay that at least four years.

 

I don't think the financing is a problem.

I know that Huntington (W.Va.) had proposed one a few years back but I believe it is dead.

That sucks. What happened?

^West Virginia happened...ooooohhhhhh, I just said that!  Blizow!

 

I WIN!!!

 

[youtube=425,350]rR89YByD9LE

I know that Huntington (W.Va.) had proposed one a few years back but I believe it is dead.

That sucks. What happened?

 

Cost. But this discussion was occurring as Pullman Square was being constructed and as 3rd Avenue and 9th Street lay mostly vacant. Today, most of the storefronts are filled; 9th Street has been reopened to two-way traffic, and 3rd Avenue is now two-way (down from four-lanes one-way).

 

IMO, it would be a waste of money, given that Marshall's campus is only several blocks away and is well served by a TTA bus (free for students).

If you need another reason not to go for Federal funds for Cincinnati's streetcar ...

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/119069070835770.xml&coll=7&thispage=1

What a great marketing ploy!  Ride the S.L.U.T!

 

 

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- Officially, it's the South Lake Union Streetcar. But in the neighborhood where the new line runs, it's called the South Lake Union Trolley -- or, the SLUT.

 

At Kapow! Coffee, a shop in the old Cascade neighborhood, 100 T-shirts bearing the words "Ride the SLUT" sold out in days, and another 100 are on order.

 

"We're welcoming the SLUT into the neighborhood," said Jerry Johnson, 29, a part-time barista.

 

Some claim -- incorrectly, according to representatives of Vulcan Inc., the company that is developing the area -- that South Lake Union Trolley was the original name and that it was changed when officials belatedly realized the acronym.  Watch how popular S.L.U.T. T-shirts have become »

 

The $50.5 million project should be completed with streetcars running in December. Underlying the lighthearted opposition, however, is resentment over changes in the old working-class neighborhood.

 

"There was a meeting with representatives from the city several years ago," Johnson recalled.

 

 

"They asked us, 'What we could do for you?' Most people raised their hands and said, 'Affordable housing,"' he said. "Then the people from the city huddled together -- 'whisper, whisper, whisper,' -- and they said, 'How about a trolley?"'

 

Since then, Cascade has been ignored in Vulcan brochures that lump the neighborhood together with Denny Park and Denny Triangle under the term South Lake Union. With the streetcar, said Don Clifton, a Cascade resident, "We learned how fun it is to change the name of things"

 

What can we name Cincinnati's to be unique and to stand out?

 

"RIDE THE T.A.R.T.!"

 

Trolley Area Regional Transportation

 

/straining to define that...

What a great marketing ploy!  Ride the S.L.U.T!

 

 

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- Officially, it's the South Lake Union Streetcar. But in the neighborhood where the new line runs, it's called the South Lake Union Trolley -- or, the SLUT.

 

At Kapow! Coffee, a shop in the old Cascade neighborhood, 100 T-shirts bearing the words "Ride the SLUT" sold out in days, and another 100 are on order.

 

"We're welcoming the SLUT into the neighborhood," said Jerry Johnson, 29, a part-time barista.

 

:laugh:  That is great! 

Remember, final Open House for the Cincinnati Streetcar is tonight (Thursday) from 4:00p to 7:00p.

 

The place is Cincinnati City Hall, 801 Plum Street, in Council Chambers on the Third Floor. There's lots of cheap parking near City Hall, and the meters are free after 5:00p.

 

You can show up anytime, ask questions of the consultants and leave whenever you want. You should fill our a Comment Card. Among the things you might want to weigh-in on are:

 

* The end points of the first phase are the Great American Ball Park and Findlay Market. OK with you?

 

* What should the fare be - free, $.050 or $1.00 or more?

 

* Who should build and "own" the streetcar?

 

* Do you like the modern vehicles, or would you want something more retro?

 

* If it were something other than a fixed-rail system, would you be more or less likely to use it?

 

* How would a downtown streetcar change your life?

 

* Would you give up your car if the streetcar were in place?

 

Well, you get the idea. See you there.

GM & Ford have beat retro into the ground.  I would like to see modern street cars.  John are photos allowed during the open house?

There will also be a scaled down presentation of the streetcar plan by the Mayor's Young Proffessional Kitchen Cabinet during the downtown tour of living

 

Tour of Living Streetcar Presentation

McAlpin Building

15 W 4th St.

Sept 30, 2007

12-5pm

GM & Ford have beat retro into the ground.  I would like to see modern street cars.  John are photos allowed during the open house?

 

I prefer the sleek, modern streetcars as well.  And since Cincinnati has traditionally been viewed as a city that fears change, I think that choosing the modern variety over the retro streetcars would be a powerful statement that we are looking to the future and improving on the strong base we already have.

I would like to see modern streetcars as well. Wasn't there a rendering years ago that showed a modern streetcar making its way down Vine?

All these comments, and more, should be entered into the record tonight. I think they're most interested in comments on the route.

 

I'm sure photos are OK. Take a camera and ask whoever seems to be in charge.

I'd love to attend, but I work west coast hours, so there's no way that I'll be able to make it.  I hope it goes well, though, and that the turnout is high.

 

Speaking of the route, I always wondered why the streetcar doesn't head west for a few blocks at it's southernmost point, servicing both PBS and GABP, and additionally bringing the streetcar closer to some of the smaller venues and residences on that edge of downtown.  Never wanted to bring that up before, because I just want this thing to get built, but it might be something worth considering.

Remember, final Open House for the Cincinnati Streetcar is tonight (Thursday) from 4:00p to 7:00p.

 

I forwarded your email on to just about every dean for every college at the University of Cincinnati.  I asked them to forward it on to their respective listservs...I have no idea how successful it has been, but I'm hoping some new people get intrigued by it and show up.

 

Speaking of the route, I always wondered why the streetcar doesn't head west for a few blocks at it's southernmost point, servicing both PBS and GABP, and additionally bringing the streetcar closer to some of the smaller venues and residences on that edge of downtown. 

 

There were two principal reasons for the streetcar's using Walnut and Main running north and south through downtown, one of them compelling, the other judgmental.

 

First, the compelling reason: only the Walnut and Main Street bridges over Fort Washington Way are designed to carry something as heavy as a streetcar or light rail. When the slabs were poured, they were designed to be sacrificial, meaning there were cold joints where concrete slabs could be easily removed from the current traffic lane to expose the 12" of depth need to install the re-bar and trackbed. You can just jackhammer these sections out without damaging adjacent areas because those were a separate concrete pour. Plus, the post-tensioning used in these bridges was set at a lower depth in order to allow the removal without affecting the structure. A good example of how our city (usually) plans ahead. Were you to use any bridge other than Walnut or Main, you'd have to close parts of the freeway to traffic and rebuild it at an estimated cost of $4 million for each structure. So that kind of forces you to use Walnut and Main.

 

Now for the judgmental part. The cluster of office buildings between Third and Sixth within a block or two of Walnut or Main constitutes one of the main economic engines of our city, along with the University of Cincinnati. As much as 30-40% of Cincinnati's earning taxes comes from those nine or so blocks. The Streetcar Steering Committee felt that these office workers were the most likely suspects to repopulate downtown and OTR. They're here already. They're used to downtown with all its pluses and minuses, and a lot of the childless ones are probably sick of their commutes. Plus they pay a bunch to park every day. So, in a play to one of our strengths, the judgment was to tap into this buying power directly.

 

What do you have to the west? Paul Brown Stadium -- a nice building that used maybe, in a good year, 1% of the hours of the year. And the Convention Center. But Dan Lincoln, the director of the Convention and Visitors Bureau said, "Don't worry about the conventioneers. They'll find the streetcar. It doesn't have to come right by the Convention Center." And he's right. Life could be worse than having to walk from the Center or a hotel east of there across the new Fountain Square to Main or Walnut.

 

Some other things: getting to 12th & Main contacts the Main Street entertainment area. And getting closer to Broadway Commons exposes the streetcar to downtown's next largest site after the riverfront.

 

So that was the logic. So far, it's held up pretty well to scrutiny.

^Cool.  That makes a lot of sense.  I didn't realize that those bridges were constructed differently.  Very interesting.  I have no real issue with the proposed streetcar route, I just thought it was curious that it bends away from two major venues in the Duke Energy Center and PBS, though you're probably correct, that neither will be greatly impacted by this. 

the major convention destinations flow more east west than north south, kind of the skywalk system.

And remember, it wouldn't be the worst outcome if people had to walk a couple of blocks.

 

The value of a transit trip to the passenger is the passenger's ride. The value of a transit trip to the public realm is the passenger's walk. Think about it.

sure, more eyes on the street mean more interactions, less crime, and a more better experience for everyone on the street.

Remember, final Open House for the Cincinnati Streetcar is tonight (Thursday) from 4:00p to 7:00p.

 

I forwarded your email on to just about every dean for every college at the University of Cincinnati.  I asked them to forward it on to their respective listservs...I have no idea how successful it has been, but I'm hoping some new people get intrigued by it and show up.

 

As of right now, I have yet to receive an e-mail about the open house tonight from anyone in DAAP. All the 2nd year urban planners have a class tonight from 5:00 - 5:50, I'm going to try and get someone to drive me and some of my classmates down there after class!

17 bus

I heard a funny idiot today.  A real estate agent who lives in Pendleton told me why she doesn't want the streetcar.  Answer...?  "Downtown spend good money to get rid of overhead wires". She was totally against it because of an overhead wire!

Note to self: Don't trust anyone who says "Downtown spend good money".

 

That's a pretty sad reason to ignore a streetcar proposal.

Speaking of the wires; will they be attached to buildings or will their that they are attached to. I know when i was in Milan they were attached to post, but all the old photos of the street car show them attached to buildings, and i think they are like that in portland. I think i am more partial to the post look especially do it correctly.

Remember, final Open House for the Cincinnati Streetcar is tonight (Thursday) from 4:00p to 7:00p.

 

I forwarded your email on to just about every dean for every college at the University of Cincinnati.  I asked them to forward it on to their respective listservs...I have no idea how successful it has been, but I'm hoping some new people get intrigued by it and show up.

 

As of right now, I have yet to receive an e-mail about the open house tonight from anyone in DAAP. All the 2nd year urban planners have a class tonight from 5:00 - 5:50, I'm going to try and get someone to drive me and some of my classmates down there after class!

 

Unfortunately I received no responses back from ANYONE...and I haven't heard of any students getting an email regarding the meeting.  I guess I'll have to send it out earlier next time and be more persistent.

The wires thing ... not a big deal. They're really small these days.

I heard a funny idiot today.  A real estate agent who lives in Pendleton told me why she doesn't want the streetcar.  Answer...?  "Downtown spend good money to get rid of overhead wires". She was totally against it because of an overhead wire!

 

While there is no chance whatsoever that the overhead wires for streetcars will reduce property values, this is a legitimate aesthetic complaint.  Frankly I think they should extend the overhead wire free zone into OTR as well.

^I would like to see the wire-free zone extended too, but I have no idea how something like that happens.  I do know that some blocks are mostly undergound already, such as Main Street and parts of Vine and Race.

Submerging power lines is a really expensive undertaking. As I understand it, some number of property owners must agree to it (simple majority, super-majority, unanimity? I forget), and are then issued an assessment to defray the costs.

 

The additional problem is that putting the lines underground usually means the building's internal electrical set-up must be changed as well, since the wires are coming in to a different location. This cost is solely the responsibility of the building owner.

One of the reasons I take people to Portland all the time is to show them that the overhead wires are barely visible.

 

Next trip is November 16th.

^I always thought that I would dislike streetcars because of overhead wires as well, but when I started traveling to Portland on business, I found that I barely even noticed them.  Plus, they're stretched taught, not hanging loosely like telephone and power cables, so they look clean.  And as a visitor to the city, it was nice to be able to tell from the wires where the streetcar line was (while walking around) and where it would turn (while riding).  I was amazed at how quickly I did a total 180 on this type of transportation, and that was strictly from a rider's standpoint, before I found out about all of the economic/development benefits.

Connect Cincinnati Streetcar conference being held at Cintas

 

The goal of the conference is to provide a chance for members of the community to discuss the project with community leaders

10/01/07

 

The Connect Cincinnati Streetcar Conference is taking place at Xavier on Saturday, Nov. 3, from 9:00 a.m.-3:00 p.m. at the Schiff Banquet and Conference Center. The event is free and open to the public.

The goal of the conference is to provide a chance for members of the community to discuss the project with community leaders. Following an opening presentation, participants will break into working groups to discuss such topics as the social impact of streetcars on Over-The-Rhine, economic impact, environmental issues and funding.

 

The conference is sponsored by the Urban Transit Network (UTN), which was founded this summer by a group of Xavier students. UTN is dedicated to improving Cincinnati through transit-oriented development and is working to build a coalition in support of the streetcar initiative.

 

“We need to keep this project on the public agenda and get it done according to what the public wants,” says Xavier junior and UTN co-founder David Ben. “This will help Cincinnati as a whole. It will help draw companies to the city.”

 

In addition to the economic impact, UTN also believes the streetcar system will also help create a livelier downtown social scene. Cincinnati is not alone in pursuing streetcars as a means of urban transportation and development. At least a dozen cities in the United States already have a system operating or under construction, and a handful more are being planned. Portland, Ore., tends to be the model city for modern streetcars, but other metropolitan areas, including a successful system in Kenosha, Wis., and a planned system in Columbus, demonstrate the desire nationwide for efficient urban transportation and center-city revitalization.

 

“This will put more people on the street, and the side effect of that is a safer city,” said Ben.

 

R.S.V.P.s are appreciated to [email protected]. Lunch is included for those who R.S.V.P. For more information about UTN please visit www.urbantransitnetwork.com.

 

http://www.xavier.edu/news/news.cfm?news_id=5159

 

Dear Friend of Cincinnati,

 

On October 16th, Cincinnati City Council will begin deliberations on whether to build an electrically-powered rail streetcar over a diagonal route between the Great American Ball Park and Findlay Market. The plan has wide business, civic and political support.

 

To gain understanding, I'd like you to join an intensive day-long tour of Portland's streetcar system on Friday, November 16th. Most people will arrive on Thursday and leave on Sunday.

 

We'll be staying in Portland's best hotel -- here: http://www.monaco-portland.com/ -- at a hugely reduced rate they have extended to hundreds of Cincinnatians who've made these trips over the past six years, generally in groups of 15-25 people. Ask around -- you undoubtedly know someone who has gone to Portland with us, probably several people.

 

Delta's nonstop flights to Portland are the cheapest they've been in several years. You can even find roundtrip nonstop flights that cost only 25,000 SkyMiles these days. You'll probably need to secure air reservations no later than October 23rd to get the best fare.

 

The reasons for building a streetcar in Cincinnati are explained in this article, which appeared early last year: http://citybeat.com/2006-02-15/cover.shtml. If you're interested in the streetcar, please take a few minutes to read it.

 

The Cincinnati Streetcar seems likely to happen, so it's a good time to get your arms around it. If you'd like to go on the tour to Portland next month, please write back soon, and I'll send you more info.

 

Thanks for your time,

 

John Schneider

I am not sold on the idea of spending $1.2 million on a streetcar system.  I have sat through numerous presentations, researched everything I could get my hands on, and spent time in Portland both riding the system, researching their CBD (Central Business District) demographics, and talking with the folks in the Portland Metro Planning Department.

 

What concerns me are the facts that do not seem to be addressed regarding Cincinnati.  Portland had both a lightrail system and an economically viable economy BEFORE they initiated talk about a streetcar.  They spent eleven years planning - started the first feasibility study in 1990, opened the first line in 2001.

 

Portland's downtown population, according to 2000 census figures, is approximately 13,000 and Cincinnati's is 3200 (contested).  They have approximately 800 condos vs Cincinnati's 400, and approximately 7300 rental units vs Cincinnati's 3700.

 

Other pertinent numbers of concern:  Portland built 2.4 miles of track after almost ten years of planning, while Cincinnati is proposing 3.9 miles of track in three years or less.  Portland's yearly operating costs are $2.7 million for that 2.4 miles of track and TriMet (Portland's version of SORTA) operates at a continual deficit with three times the downtown population that Cincinnati has. I am not sure then how Cincinnati officials believe that they can operate almost twice the amount of track for the $2.0 - $2.7 million they are estimating.  Do we know something that Portland doesn't after their six years of operating the system? 

 

Portland also had a very sustainable and viable downtown econony BEFORE the streetcar line opened.  The Pearl District manufacturing sector (supposedly similar to Over-the-Rhine) was opened to development because of the demolition of a highway off-ramp, not the streetcar system, as I have heard reported. 

 

In my education and experience new restaurants are not a sign of economic viability, although they are a good start, they are the easiest businesses to enter into the market and as such they are also the first to go and while all the new restaurants make downtown Cincinnati look viable, they cannot economically sustain it.

 

I also am at a loss as to how a streetcar system will tie downtown with our incline communities without substantial regrading of steep streets.  A streetcar is not a substitution for light rail and unless the manuafacturer's have come up with a bigger better push behind these cars they are not going to make it up the hills to Uptown (Clifton), Mt. Auburn, Mt. Adams, or Price Hill.

 

My last concern is hearing how convenient this sytem is.  Anyone driving in traffic in downtown Cincinnati knows how difficult it is to get around.  Well folks, the streetcars drive the same streets and have the same lights and stop and go issues that buses, cabs, and other vehicles do.  While putting extra streetcars on-line during peak hours sounds really good, the fact of the matter is it doesn't make the system any faster, perhaps one just feels better because instead of standing at the stop waiting, one is actually stuck on the car waiting and appears to be going somewhere.

 

If Cincinnati could find $102 million dollars to spend on the city, it could be better spent on marketing the assets that we already have to build a more substantial economic base, then we could plan a streetcar system to enhance that.  Our image needs a significant shot in the arm not only to those living across the nation, but to our own suburbs as well and rushing to build a streetcar system now will not remedy that. 

Where to begin? I only have an hour.

 

I am not sold on the idea of spending $1.2 million on a streetcar system.  I have sat through numerous presentations, researched everything I could get my hands on, and spent time in Portland both riding the system, researching their CBD (Central Business District) demographics, and talking with the folks in the Portland Metro Planning Department.

 

OK, so far so good.

 

What concerns me are the facts that do not seem to be addressed regarding Cincinnati.  Portland had both a lightrail system and an economically viable economy BEFORE they initiated talk about a streetcar.  They spent eleven years planning - started the first feasibility study in 1990, opened the first line in 2001.

 

Cheryl, you're a planner, right? While I'm sure that any planner would love to spend eleven years planning anything, a lot of the stuff that Portland did (and about 40 other U.S. cities are doing right now) is easily transferable to Cincinnati. People have been building streetcars for 120 years. We're not building the first atomic bomb here.

 

Portland's downtown population, according to 2000 census figures, is approximately 13,000 and Cincinnati's is 3200 (contested).  They have approximately 800 condos vs Cincinnati's 400, and approximately 7300 rental units vs Cincinnati's 3700.

 

Better check your numbers. Portland has added at least 8,000 apartment units, rental and condos, along the route since it opened in 2001. Understand, the main reason we're doing this is because we don't have enough downtown residents, not because we have a whole bunch of them, so your premise is wrong.

 

Other pertinent numbers of concern:  Portland built 2.4 miles of track after almost ten years of planning, while Cincinnati is proposing 3.9 miles of track in three years or less.  Portland's yearly operating costs are $2.7 million for that 2.4 miles of track and TriMet (Portland's version of SORTA) operates at a continual deficit with three times the downtown population that Cincinnati has. I am not sure then how Cincinnati officials believe that they can operate almost twice the amount of track for the $2.0 - $2.7 million they are estimating.  Do we know something that Portland doesn't after their six years of operating the system? 

 

Portland meaures its system end-to-end (route miles) whereas Cincinnati is measuring its system by track miles. This means, simply put, that Portland's 2.4 miles in the original build is equal to 4.8 miles the way Cincinnati would measure it. This is why Cincinnati's operating costs appear, to you, to be half of what Portland's are. And anyway, Portland has almost four route miles now (eight miles in Cincinnati lexicon). So they are actually operating twice as many streetcar miles -- however you want to measure it -- for about the same budget the Cincinnati planners estimated here. To me, it suggests that our planners are being very conservative in their projections.

 

Portland also had a very sustainable and viable downtown econony BEFORE the streetcar line opened.  The Pearl District manufacturing sector (supposedly similar to Over-the-Rhine) was opened to development because of the demolition of a highway off-ramp, not the streetcar system, as I have heard reported. 

 

You paid to go to Portland and visited all these agencies and met with all these people, and you can't make an independent judgment as to whether the Pearl District was "supposedly similar to Over-the-Rhine"? Really?

 

In my education and experience new restaurants are not a sign of economic viability, although they are a good start, they are the easiest businesses to enter into the market and as such they are also the first to go and while all the new restaurants make downtown Cincinnati look viable, they cannot economically sustain it.

 

True. But who is saying that we're building the streetcar because it will attract a whole bunch of new restaurants? I've never heard that. We're doing this, primarily, to repopulate downtown and OTR.

 

I also am at a loss as to how a streetcar system will tie downtown with our incline communities without substantial regrading of steep streets.  A streetcar is not a substitution for light rail and unless the manuafacturer's have come up with a bigger better push behind these cars they are not going to make it up the hills to Uptown (Clifton), Mt. Auburn, Mt. Adams, or Price Hill.

 

Streetcars will easily make it up Vine Street. Clifton is a little more problematic. You surely know that the Portland Streetcar climbs a hill that's steeper than either Vine or Clifton -- I mean, it's really kind of hard to miss. Sycamore would be my first choice because there is no transit service there now. Some people from Price Hill want to have it link with an incline in an area of about 100 developable acres. Sounds like transit-oriented development to me.

 

My last concern is hearing how convenient this sytem is.  Anyone driving in traffic in downtown Cincinnati knows how difficult it is to get around.  Well folks, the streetcars drive the same streets and have the same lights and stop and go issues that buses, cabs, and other vehicles do.  While putting extra streetcars on-line during peak hours sounds really good, the fact of the matter is it doesn't make the system any faster, perhaps one just feels better because instead of standing at the stop waiting, one is actually stuck on the car waiting and appears to be going somewhere.

 

Because streetcars have six doors and can dock on either side of the street, they block traffic much less than buses do. And because they can carry up to 130 people, every streetcar can conceivably take three buses off the street. Or, put another way, each streetcar can take 100 or so cars off the street. So again, I think your premise is wrong. Watch this video and see for yourself ow it works:

 

If Cincinnati could find $102 million dollars to spend on the city, it could be better spent on marketing the assets that we already have to build a more substantial economic base, then we could plan a streetcar system to enhance that.  Our image needs a significant shot in the arm not only to those living across the nation, but to our own suburbs as well and rushing to build a streetcar system now will not remedy that. 

 

Cheryl, you must surely realize that we have been "marketing" downtown Cincinnati for at least twenty years now, with limited success. At some point, you have to quit talking about your image -- which is probably well deserved after all the efforts to change it -- and actually do something.

 

i love you john

I'm not from Cincy---I live in Columbus---but I have to agree with John on every point. This is not something that is pie in the sky. Others have been doing this for years and examples abound which can be applied to Cincinnati and every other city in Ohio. We could learn a LOT from Portland.

 

One other thing: Portland's downtown wasn't such a great place before the MAX light rail line went in. It had the same problems a lot of other cities have: vacant buildings, too much surface parking and was a bit down at the heels. The MAX line changed all that, bringing hundreds of millions of dollars in new development and the trolley has just added fuel to the fire.

 

Why? Simply put, rail (trolleys, light rail, commuter rail, etc) brings people together and promoted the development of dense, walkable areas, while the auto does just the opposite. It tends to disperse people to outlying areas. More planning and autocentric development will do nothing for downtown Cincinnati and any new marketing plan will be nothing more than a band-aid that does not address the need for better public transportation in the form of the trolley or light rail which will revitalize downtown.

Portland's downtown population, according to 2000 census figures, is approximately 13,000 and Cincinnati's is 3200 (contested).  They have approximately 800 condos vs Cincinnati's 400, and approximately 7300 rental units vs Cincinnati's 3700.

 

 

John, I think answered your questions pretty well.

 

 

Cheryl, the only thing I'd like to know is, what is the land area that Portland uses to define it's "downtown"? If it is larger than Cincinnati's sq. mi., then you would need to expand Cincinnati's boundaries to give a fair comparison, and that might include expanding to use parts of NOKY, Mt. Adams, West End, or Mt Auburn ... to use the same land definitions.

 

 

Portland's Central Business District is 1.8 sq miles while Cincinnati's is .8 square miles, which is what my figures are based on.  Even if Cincinnati downtown was expanded to match Portland's, Portland still has more density and a more stable economic environment that warrants a streetcar system to move the people coming into the city by light-rail, and from one side to another, which is my whole point.

 

And John - Yes, so much to say, so little time....... by the way thanks for the compliment, yes it would indeed be a great opportunity to spend eleven years planning anything, especially with the economic base that Portland had initially. No, we are not building atomic bombs, nor do cookie-cutter approaches work for all dynamics so I will hold my ground on the “easily transferable” concept, we are talking economics here and economics are dependent on the dynamics of a community, not a streetcar.

 

I would go back and double check my numbers, however I was comparing apples to apples, not 2000 demographics of Cincinnati to 2007 stats of Portland, and Cincinnati stats are across the map these dys dependent on who is doing the reporting.  Portland was already on-track growth-wise for those numbers without the addition of the streetcar so it is highly debate-able how much growth was actually caused by it.

 

Regardless of how the system is measured, Portland operates at a deficit each year with three times as many people and a viable economic base.  Conservative or not, the figures being utilized for this proposal have questionable accuracy for how this proposal is being sold, especially given Cincinnati’s track record for on time and on budget ventures.

 

I would personally compare the Pearl District with the Brewery District. It was primarily a warehouse area where OTR is primarily residential. Although block-wise they are similar Portland’s Pearl District is 100 blocks while OTR is 106. I could be mistaken, I believe that OTR also has a cultural history that Pearl does not.

 

I was referring to all the new restaurants opening downtown being reported as a sign of stable economic development and viability for Cincinnati. I would like to know how a streetcar single-handedly repopulates downtown.  I am confused as to the relationship drawn between the two.

 

The last info I saw was that Vine Street was about twice the grade that streetcars could handle easily.  I am not an engineer in any way, shape, or form, if I recall correctly the low model cars being touted for the Cincinnati proposal are not suited for more than a 6% grade because of safety issues.  I also believe that the hill you are talking about in Portland is the one up to Portland State where the tracks both coming and going are side by side indicating perhaps some extra infrastructure to accomodate the climb, now that might be an interesting addition to Vine given that the tracks are laid in the road.

 

Traffic is traffic and when traffic is at a standstill, so is the streetcar, so what difference does it make that it has 130 people on board and six doors?  You are assuming it will take six buses off the road as long as the people that rode those buses are now riding the streetcar because it is more convenient which isn’t necessarily the case. Plus, I am not sure how to figure in all the commuters that work in downtown that WILL NOT be riding the streetcar, so how does this system exactly take cars off the road? Traffic seems to be going into downtown and out of downtown at peak rush hours in the AM and PM.  A streetcar does not figure into this scenario, nor does it help those that live downtown and work or do business in the suburbs.  Now, if one would consider the amount of people coming into Portland and leaving Portland at peak rush hours via the light-rail system, then a streetcar system becomes apart of a transit solution to get them from one place to another.  Where are we going to get all these people that will ride and support this system on a regular enough basis to warrant extending it?  If phase one flops, there will be no other phases.  I believe it would be prudent to plan, er sorry, figure these things out first in order that phase one is a resounding success and additions then become "no-brainers". 

 

You are right we have been doing such a good job of marketing, haven’t we?  That must be why we have such an influx of people moving into downtown Cincinnati for business and a boatload of vacant office and residential space that is growing daily – you missed that as well as a planner I am in development too.  Guess I’ve had my head in the sand for twenty-five years. I guess that with the headlines reading Cincinnati builds streetcar system, people and business will just come flocking in.  Silly me for thinking that a first option would be to have a very good economic base in place as well as a strategic plan of some sort - did I forget to mention that Portland Oregon is now finishing up its Plan for 2040? I am not sure what plan Cincinnati is following but it seems that without a plan any fast path will get us "there", where ever there is. I also thought it was a higher density that would put riders on a streetcar in the first place, not the other way around. I must be delirious to have put the horse BEFORE the cart.  Not to mention that creating a highly walk-able and perceptively safe environment all around an entire proposed route first is what usually spurs economic growth.

 

Portland's Central Business District is 1.8 sq miles while Cincinnati's is .8 square miles, which is what my figures are based on.  Even if Cincinnati downtown was expanded to match Portland's, Portland still has more density and a more stable economic environment that warrants a streetcar system to move the people coming into the city by light-rail, and from one side to another, which is my whole point.

 

What are the numbers? We need something tangible to see here ... an article was written the other day by, surprisingly -the Enquirer ... noting the 'billions' of dollars that are being invested in downtown and it's immediate surrounding.

 

In order for you to support this idea, we have got to see numbers, not just "I think it's this" ... I'm sorry to get hung up on this detail, but this is an important one. Cincinnati uses a realistic land area to define it's downtown, while cities like Indianapolis blow up the numbers to be 6 sq. mi. and then are compared to Cincinnati's. Has anyone been to downtown Indianapolis? Case in point.

The mind reels.

Regardless of how the system is measured, Portland operates at a deficit each year

 

I-75 operates at deficit as well, as does 71, SR 562 and SR 126

The rarely mentioned but major factor that has impeded Over-the-Rhine's redevelopment is the size of the buildings.  Typical buildings in the neighborhood are bigger than almost anyone has the resources to rehab.  Compared to Victorian Village or German Village in Columbus, or Mt. Adams or Mt. Auburn in Cincinnati, few people have the money and want to go through the hassle of managing a building with 6 or 10 apartment units.  There probably isn't a single building in Mt. Adams with more than 10 apartment units, aside from the tower built in the 1960's. 

 

If 1,000 units were rehabbed in Over-the-Rhine overnight, they would require at least 1,000 new parking spots.  Better mass transit is absolutely necessary to allow Over-the-Rhine to be redeveloped without dozens of new parking garages or demolition of old buildings for surface parking.     

 

The other big difference between Cincinnati and most other cities is that there are dozens of other great in-town areas competing with downtown Cincinnati and Over-the-Rhine.  Newer cities have been able to rapidly develop their downtowns because there's little else besides Applebee's and O'Charley's, Charlotte being the most glaring example.  No old neighborhoods, no water, no hills, not much at all to distract people who prefer an urban residence from downtown Charlotte.   

 

Cincinnati has tons of people, tons of companies.  It's attitude that's the problem. 

 

Regardless of how the system is measured, Portland operates at a deficit each year

 

I-75 operates at deficit as well, as does 71, SR 562 and SR 126

 

Nice.

Portland's Central Business District is 1.8 sq miles while Cincinnati's is .8 square miles, which is what my figures are based on.  Even if Cincinnati downtown was expanded to match Portland's, Portland still has more density and a more stable economic environment that warrants a streetcar system to move the people coming into the city by light-rail, and from one side to another, which is my whole point.

 

If you include downtown Cincinnati from the river to the Clifton hospital district bounded on the north by Erkenbrecher and the east by Reading Rd. you would probably get an area comparable to whatever Portland's central business district is.  You keep making unsubstantiated claims as to Portland's economic environment- you claim it is more "stable" and more "viable" than Cincinnati's, but you offer absolutely no evidence to back this up.  Finally, Portland may be more densely populated than Cincinnati now but I would suspect that Cincinnati was more densely populated than Portland when Portland built its streetcar or first light rail line.

 

And John - Yes, so much to say, so little time....... by the way thanks for the compliment, yes it would indeed be a great opportunity to spend eleven years planning anything, especially with the economic base that Portland had initially. No, we are not building atomic bombs, nor do cookie-cutter approaches work for all dynamics so I will hold my ground on the “easily transferable” concept, we are talking economics here and economics are dependent on the dynamics of a community, not a streetcar.

 

Since you listed no comparable data, you aren't talking economics at all.  Your arguments have been wholly rhetorical.

 

I would go back and double check my numbers, however I was comparing apples to apples, not 2000 demographics of Cincinnati to 2007 stats of Portland, and Cincinnati stats are across the map these days dependent on who is doing the reporting.  Portland was already on-track growth-wise for those numbers without the addition of the streetcar so it is highly debate-able how much growth was actually caused by it.

 

Regardless of how the system is measured, Portland operates at a deficit each year with three times as many people and a viable economic base.  Conservative or not, the figures being utilized for this proposal have questionable accuracy for how this proposal is being sold, especially given Cincinnati’s track record for on time and on budget ventures.

 

You keep speaking about numbers and economic statistics yet we have seen none over your past two posts.

 

I would be very interested to know what exactly Portland did, what specific, concrete actions they took, as a city, to improve their economy to the point that it is today, as you claim, a much more stable and viable economy than Cincinnati's.  Because there are few concrete things a municipality can actually do to effect the economy in which the city finds itself.  (One of those few things a municipality can do is build infrastructure in order to attract residents and businesses).  So when you are done posting your comparative economic data, such as average household income, population statistics, a list of the top ten employers in each municipality and how many people they employ, things of this nature, than please give a brief overview of the measures taken by the Portland city government to stabilize and enliven their economy since, say, the 1970s, so we can know how and what to market here in Southwestern Ohio.