The presidential election last year brought a lot of blue voters out of the woodwork who are not going to be participating in mid-term elections, or possibly other presidential elections lacking the hype of the 2008 campaign.

 

That said, you didn't have to be a democrat to understand the idiocy of issue 9 and you don't have to be a democrat to recognize the value of rail transit. I consider myself conservative but am very excited about the prospect of a streetcar and other forms of rail in the Queen City in the very near future.

 

I would have typed this post too.

I think a section of the streetcar should run from the casino through the banks and over to newport on the levee. Connecting the downtown\casino area with newport I think will is a crucial step in all of this. There is such a vast amount of people that would use the streetcar across the river to get into downtown.

 

Both Covington and Newport have expressed a desire to extend the line to their cities

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/covington-passes-resolution-in-support-of-the-cincinnati-streetcar/

Excellent piece, thanks for that John. The casino has really brought the streetcar deal to a more favorable status.

 

I agree ... I wouldn't doubt (and as a casino operator) I'd expect them to throw money at the streetcar.

 

Is Issue 3 the best thing to happen to the streetcar?

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot.  I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown.  With the casino and all of this other stuff.  It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us." 

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

Yeah, my jaw dropped when I heard that.

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot. I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown. With the casino and all of this other stuff. It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us."

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years.  Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta.  Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed.  Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar.  Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3. 

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

^WHOA slow down. Nothing is built yet.

^WHOA slow down. Nothing is built yet.

 

Yes, nothing is built yet, but that's reason to speed up not slow down.  Cincinnati has had a bad habit of striking while the iron is cold, and that needs to stop.

^WHOA slow down. Nothing is built yet.

 

Yes, nothing is built yet, but that's reason to speed up not slow down. Cincinnati has had a bad habit of striking while the iron is cold, and that needs to stop.

 

Cincinnati strikes? I thought we just raised the hammer repeatedly...

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot.  I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown.  With the casino and all of this other stuff.  It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us." 

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years.  Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta.  Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed.  Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar.  Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3. 

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

TAMPA?

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot.  I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown.  With the casino and all of this other stuff.  It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us." 

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years.  Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta.  Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed.  Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar.  Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3. 

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

TAMPA?

I was using some economic impact examples.  Tampa has seen a ton of development along the route. 

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot.  I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown.  With the casino and all of this other stuff.  It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us." 

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years.  Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta.  Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed.  Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar.  Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3. 

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

TAMPA?

I was using some economic impact examples.  Tampa has seen a ton of development along the route. 

 

WHERE?  Have you riden that one track line?

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years.  Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta.  Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed.  Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar.  Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3. 

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

 

We'll have to see what happens.  Currently the city is facing a $51 million dollar deficit and while there are a lot of rail supporters on the council, the new majority has pledged not to lay off police and fire.  If they hold true to that, they'll have to gut the rest of the budget which could delay this project for awhile.

 

Also, Ghiz is not clear in her position, Winburn is probably with Monzel against it, and who knows if others will fall in the thinking of "good idea, wrong time" with all this stuff coming out.

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years. Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta. Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed. Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar. Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3.

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

 

We'll have to see what happens. Currently the city is facing a $51 million dollar deficit and while there are a lot of rail supporters on the council, the new majority has pledged not to lay off police and fire. If they hold true to that, they'll have to gut the rest of the budget which could delay this project for awhile.

 

Also, Ghiz is not clear in her position, Winburn is probably with Monzel against it, and who knows if others will fall in the thinking of "good idea, wrong time" with all this stuff coming out.

 

The Operating Budget faces a $51 million shortfall; however, the Streetcar will be funded with funds from the Capital Budget (the budget used to make investments in bridges, roads, rail, etc.) City Workers are paid with funds from the Operating Budget (the budget used to pay salaries and fund the pension). The Capital Budget can only be used to pay for ‘permanent improvements’ defined as assets with a useful life of at least five years and a value of at least $10,000. By law, Capital Budget cannot be used to pay Operating expenses

I think the casino changes the center-of-gravity for light rail planning here. The streetcar would still be helpful in getting visitors to and from the casino, but the casino will also want to get workers there.

 

I'm imagining a "Rapid Rail" LRT that originates in the Transit Center, goes north on Broadway to Central Parkway, goes east through Broadway Commons to Gilbert, Gilbert to Xavier, to Rookwood and Hyde Park Plaza. Maybe beyond Hyde Park it goes through Fairfax to Mariemont -- some of the old alignment is still there. It needs to be really fast.

 

I'm thinking that someday a branch of this line gets built west to Union Terminal or maybe Northside. That would be an interesting way to go cross-town fast using our boulevard-type parkways. Meanwhile the streetcar would make the connections on the narrower streets.

 

Just thinking out loud.

We will need operating money. Will that come from the TIF, the Feds, or the city budget?

^WHOA slow down. Nothing is built yet.

 

I say we all take some time and enjoy all the positive news, lets just not lose focus.

We will need operating money. Will that come from the TIF, the Feds, or the city budget?

TIF

This diagram (scale of 1 pixel= 6') illustrates how much less space a streetcar (green) uses than automobiles (red) to transport the same number of people.  The auto is a Toyota Camry with an average of 1.2 passengers.

The most amazing thing? This diagram assumes the streetcar is only filled to 50% of its maximum capacity.

 

Here is what a full streetcar would look like in comparison:

 

The Operating Budget faces a $51 million shortfall; however, the Streetcar will be funded with funds from the Capital Budget (the budget used to make investments in bridges, roads, rail, etc.) City Workers are paid with funds from the Operating Budget (the budget used to pay salaries and fund the pension). The Capital Budget can only be used to pay for ‘permanent improvements’ defined as assets with a useful life of at least five years and a value of at least $10,000. By law, Capital Budget cannot be used to pay Operating expenses

 

You and i know the difference between operating and capital budgets...but when it comes to the tax payers and the council members that are looking for places to cut and justifications for doing so, i don't think they make the distinction quite as clear.

 

Also, reading City Beat there's some rumors about Ghiz working to set herself up for a run at County Commissioner.  So, she may be using this next year to position herself for the Republicans in the rest of the county.

 

  ^---- Did you account for the space between the cars, or just the cars themselves?

 

  A parked car takes 24 feet of street space for parallel parking. In a parking lot, a car takes a space about 9 x 30'.

 

  On the highway, a car takes about 10 feet of lane length for each 10 mph the car is travelling for stopping distance, plus the length of the car itself. For example, a Toyota Camry at 50 mph takes about 62 feet (16+5*10). The interesting thing is that there is a maximum capacity, and this occurs at about half the free running speed.

 

    Another way to think about cities is by percentage of street space vs. building space. When people started buying automobiles, the population density HAD to go down.

 

   

 

  ^---- Did you account for the space between the cars, or just the cars themselves?

 

  A parked car takes 24 feet of street space for parallel parking. In a parking lot, a car takes a space about 9 x 30'.

 

  On the highway, a car takes about 10 feet of lane length for each 10 mph the car is travelling for stopping distance, plus the length of the car itself. For example, a Toyota Camry at 50 mph takes about 62 feet (16+5*10). The interesting thing is that there is a maximum capacity, and this occurs at about half the free running speed.

 

Another way to think about cities is by percentage of street space vs. building space. When people started buying automobiles, the population density HAD to go down.

 

 

 

I tend to error on the side of caution and therefore only assumed a 2ft. gap between cars

The city will receive a significant increase to its operations budget thanks to casino revenue and that will more than cover operations of the first phase of the streetcar. Those revenues will likely start in 2013, the same full year of streetcar operation. So stick a fork in COAST's police layoffs argument. 

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot. I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown. With the casino and all of this other stuff. It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us."

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years. Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta. Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed. Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar. Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3.

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

TAMPA?

I was using some economic impact examples. Tampa has seen a ton of development along the route.

 

WHERE? Have you riden that one track line?

What do you mean where???  Ybor City.  1 billion dollars worth of transit oriented development along 2.3 miles. 

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot.  I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown.  With the casino and all of this other stuff.  It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us." 

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years.  Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta.  Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed.  Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar.  Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3. 

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

TAMPA?

I was using some economic impact examples.  Tampa has seen a ton of development along the route. 

 

WHERE?  Have you riden that one track line?

What do you mean where???  Ybor City.  1 billion dollars worth of transit oriented development along 2.3 miles. 

Ybor city was built before that line was redeveloped.  It's a tourist bus.  It's single track, minus the first two (or three) stations and a station in the middle of the line and one station in ybor, where cars wait to pass in both directions. 

 

example

 

It's not a viable mode of transportation as the majority of riders are tourist and the city just took over financing of the line.

This diagram (scale of 1 pixel= 6') illustrates how much less space a streetcar (green) uses than automobiles (red) to transport the same number of people. The auto is a Toyota Camry with an average of 1.2 passengers.

The most amazing thing? This diagram assumes the streetcar is only filled to 50% of its maximum capacity.

 

 

And, the cars are Camrys, not monster SUVs

How/when is the capital budget set?  Is that an annual occurence?

 

   ^---- Did you account for the space between the cars, or just the cars themselves?

 

   A parked car takes 24 feet of street space for parallel parking. In a parking lot, a car takes a space about 9 x 30'.

 

   On the highway, a car takes about 10 feet of lane length for each 10 mph the car is travelling for stopping distance, plus the length of the car itself. For example, a Toyota Camry at 50 mph takes about 62 feet (16+5*10). The interesting thing is that there is a maximum capacity, and this occurs at about half the free running speed.

 

    Another way to think about cities is by percentage of street space vs. building space. When people started buying automobiles, the population density HAD to go down.

 

   

 

Add to this the fact that each additional lane of highway beyond the first two adds a geometrically decreasing amount of capacity. I.E., 3 2-lane parallel surface streets carry more than a 6-lane surface street.

 

As for Ybor...yeah, go ride it. It's a tourist gimmick. It's a wonderful way to get from the Marriott Channelside to Ybor while you're wasted. Not that I'd know anything about that.

 

I have faith that Cincinnati's will be more viable becuase it will connect two very large employment centers.

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot. I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown. With the casino and all of this other stuff. It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us."

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years. Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta. Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed. Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar. Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3.

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

TAMPA?

I was using some economic impact examples. Tampa has seen a ton of development along the route.

 

WHERE? Have you riden that one track line?

What do you mean where??? Ybor City. 1 billion dollars worth of transit oriented development along 2.3 miles.

Ybor city was built before that line was redeveloped. It's a tourist bus. It's single track, minus the first two (or three) stations and a station in the middle of the line and one station in ybor, where cars wait to pass in both directions.

 

example

 

It's not a viable mode of transportation as the majority of riders are tourist and the city just took over financing of the line.

I never said it was a viable mode of transportation in Tampa.  I said it helped create incredible economic development along the route.  You imply that the over $1 billion dollars in growth would have happened regardless over years with or without it(A question we'll never fully answer but the development within 2 blocks of the tampa route is undeniable). I was making the comparison to Cincy because of the potential for extreme economic growth here because our route is actually better and more ripe for success

On Tampa and development- http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/streetcars-and-development/

 

"Michael Chen, Tampa’s development services manager, points to compelling statistical evidence of the streetcar’s impact. With the exception of an Ikea store that recently opened east of downtown, every other pending development in the city with approved permits or working its way through the zoning process – $2.9 billion in all – falls within two blocks of the streetcar’s existing or planned route, he said."

 

Tampa is 112 square miles and, with the exception of an Ikea, 100% of all development is within two blocks of the existing or planned route. 

Can someone give me a quick recap of why the alignment is Main/Walnut and not Race/Walnut?

Can someone give me a quick recap of why the alignment is Main/Walnut and not Race/Walnut?

 

Because Race and Walnut both run South

"Not only am I warming to the idea of a streetcar, I'm kinda gettin' hot.  I'm kinda gettin' hot and bothered by the thought of a streetcar downtown.  With the casino and all of this other stuff.  It's almost like all of these things are coming together for us." 

 

-- Scott Sloan, 700WLW, yesterday in the interview with John Schneider.

 

Can someone please remind me where I am living?

 

This last election may have been one of the biggest in the last 25 years.  Rail supporters essentially won a trifecta.  Mallory - Issue 9 defeated - Issue 3 passed.  Factor in city council and all but 4 and possibly 2(depending on Ghiz's mood and Cole's position) support the streetcar.  Now 700 - McConnell, Cunningham, and Sloan are switching their positions on the streetcar because of issue 3. 

 

Hopefully in 20 years other cities will be following Cincinnati's lead and using us as an example along with Portland - Tampa - Charlotte etc

TAMPA?

I was using some economic impact examples.  Tampa has seen a ton of development along the route. 

 

WHERE?  Have you riden that one track line?

What do you mean where???  Ybor City.  1 billion dollars worth of transit oriented development along 2.3 miles. 

Ybor city was built before that line was redeveloped.  It's a tourist bus.  It's single track, minus the first two (or three) stations and a station in the middle of the line and one station in ybor, where cars wait to pass in both directions. 

 

example

 

It's not a viable mode of transportation as the majority of riders are tourist and the city just took over financing of the line.

I never said it was a viable mode of transportation in Tampa.  I said it helped create incredible economic development along the route.  You imply that the over $1 billion dollars in growth would have happened regardless over years with or without it(A question we'll never fully answer but the development within 2 blocks of the tampa route is undeniable). I was making the comparison to Cincy because of the potential for extreme economic growth here because our route is actually better and more ripe for success

 

For those quoting articles on Tampa's line, I must ask, have been on the line?  and in particular, the six months???  Do you have any first hand experience on the line.

 

I think it's a horrible comparison and give proponents ammunition.

• This is a historic trolley
  
• It single track for about 80% of the line
   
  
• It's not something that everyday commuter use as its not in or near a neighborhood
  
• The development has not taken place along the route, but at the ends of the route; Downtown (Convention Center/Channelside/aquarium) and Ybor City District.  In between it's a ghost land.
  

On Tampa and development- http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/streetcars-and-development/

 

"Michael Chen, Tampa’s development services manager, points to compelling statistical evidence of the streetcar’s impact. With the exception of an Ikea store that recently opened east of downtown, every other pending development in the city with approved permits or working its way through the zoning process – $2.9 billion in all – falls within two blocks of the streetcar’s existing or planned route, he said."

 

Tampa is 112 square miles and, with the exception of an Ikea, 100% of all development is within two blocks of the existing or planned route. 

 

It's how it's worded, again, the development is not completely along the route but at its ends.

 

The 8/9 times I've been on the trolley, I've never once a witnessed a person getting off in the middle of the line.

 

The stops at the convention center, the forum and channelside and the two stops on 8th street in Ybor City are close.  Example of distance between stations is comparable to the Shaker Square to Drexmore or Shaker Square to Coventry stations on the Shaker rapid line.

Can someone give me a quick recap of why the alignment is Main/Walnut and not Race/Walnut?

 

Because Race and Walnut both run South

 

Oops. I meant Vine/Walnut. I posted that before I had coffee.  :drunk:  I do understand there are good reasons why, I just don't remember them and couldn't find them in a search of the thread.

 

Can someone give me a quick recap of why the alignment is Main/Walnut and not Race/Walnut?

 

Because Race and Walnut both run South

 

Oops. I meant Vine/Walnut. I posted that before I had coffee.   :drunk: I do understand there are good reasons why, I just don't remember them and couldn't find them in a search of the thread.

 

 

Only the Main and Walnut street bridges over Ft. Washington Way have a sacrificial concrete slab that can be removed and new track can be added without rebuilding the entire bridge.

Can someone give me a quick recap of why the alignment is Main/Walnut and not Race/Walnut?

 

Because Race and Walnut both run South

 

Oops. I meant Vine/Walnut. I posted that before I had coffee. :drunk: I do understand there are good reasons why, I just don't remember them and couldn't find them in a search of the thread.

 

 

Only the Main and Walnut street bridges over Ft. Washington Way have a sacrificial concrete slab that can be removed and new track can be added without rebuilding the entire bridge.

 

Thanks very much!

It's a pretty significant cost savings from what I've heard, on the order of several million dollars.  This same construction exists on 2nd and 3rd St. in  anticipation of Metro Moves, which would have seen light rail cross the Ohio next to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge. It also exists on the 2nd St. ramp down to Broadway for an extension to Newport and/or shop facilities beneath the Broadway overpasses.   

So really, when do we start to hear rumblings about more funding, private and government? 

New Streetcar videos:

 

I am trying to put all of the streetcar info together in one single blog post, am I missing anything: http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/11/08/not-convinced-cincinnati-would-benefit-from-streetcars/ ?

Brad, who produces these videos? I assume that it is linked to your YouTube account.

 

Re: I have an overview of the light-rail and streetcar proposal, dating back to the 1993 Regional Transportation Plan at http://urbanup.net/index.php?catid=543

Does anyone know where I can find the powerpoint of "The Cincinnati Subway Conversion Study", conducted by URS Corporation back in 2008? I used to have it... now I can't even find it online.

 

 

Thanks bfwissel!

here is the link to the presentation -> http://www.oki.org/elements/PPT/Transportation/TIP/Cincinnati%20Subway%20Presentation.ppt

So really, when do we start to hear rumblings about more funding, private and government?

^ Presumably in January, when federal stimulus awards are announced.

    Ok, I'm not trying to be a party pooper, but I want to bring up a reality check.

 

    I see a lot of hope based on these stimulus funds. Supposedly, EVERYBODY is going to get a big check from the government to solve all of their infrastructure problems. Maybe the feds will shift funds away from highways toward transit, which would probable be beneficial.

 

    Well, that money does not come from thin air. Our economy only has so much capacity to build and maintain infrastructure. Think of it as a certain number of contractors, a certain number of cranes and other equipment, a certain number of sand and gravel mines, cement manufactures, steel fabricators, etc. These resources can build x number of highway lane miles, sewers, rail lines, or whatever.

 

    We presently spend y amount of dollars and build x amount of new infrastructure.

 

    If we double the money inputs, the capacity for construction does not change. If in 2012 we spend 2y amount of dollars, we can still build x amount of new infrastructure.

 

    How can this happen? By doubling the price of construction.

 

    This is why the Cincinnati Subway was never completed. All money is connected. Dumping lots of dollars into the economy doesn't necessarily mean that we will have the capacity to build more infrastructure.

 

    It's like saying we will all be better off if we had more money, or that raising the minimum wage will get people out of poverty. The real world doesn't work like that. The amount of money you have doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of money you have compared with everyone else.

 

    It is totally conceivable that construction prices will rise sharply when stimulus awards are announced.

 

   

If we double the money inputs, the capacity for construction does not change. If in 2012 we spend 2y amount of dollars, we can still build x amount of new infrastructure.

 

  How can this happen? By doubling the price of construction.

 

  This is why the Cincinnati Subway was never completed. All money is connected. Dumping lots of dollars into the economy doesn't necessarily mean that we will have the capacity to build more infrastructure.

 

It's like saying we will all be better off if we had more money, or that raising the minimum wage will get people out of poverty. The real world doesn't work like that. The amount of money you have doesn't really matter. What matters is the amount of money you have compared with everyone else.

 

It is totally conceivable that construction prices will rise sharply when stimulus awards are announced.

 

But if it doesn't matter how much money you have, just the amount of money you have relative to everyone else, why doesn't that same logic hold with regard to assets?

 

In addition your thesis can be framed in a different way- It doesn't matter whether you can ever pay your debts, off so long as you can continue to finance them.

 

Remember, that is the exact same principle by which rental income accrues.  When a prospective buyer examines a potential residential or commercial investment property, they view it as a long term investment.  That is the same way in which government bondholders view government debt.  So long as the bonds are viewed as redeemable under the terms by which they were executed, credit redounds.  And clearly government debt spent on infrastructure in the U.S. is better capitalized than debt spent on Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

By the way, the Cincinnati Subway was killed because of reformist politicians (Seasongood et. al.) not increased construction costs.

By the way, the Cincinnati Subway was killed because of reformist politicians (Seasongood et. al.) not increased construction costs.

 

No, construction costs. Post World War II inflation led the Cincinnati subway project to be cost prohibitive, and the public voted in an individual who believed money should be better spent on highway infrastructure.

No, construction costs. Post World War II inflation led the Cincinnati subway project to be cost prohibitive, and the public voted in an individual who believed money should be better spent on highway infrastructure.

 

So let me get this straight- construction costs increased for steel, concrete and labor, but only if those inputs were being used for underground rail transportation?  Otherwise construction costs for roads remained the same?  That doesn't make any sense.  The second part of your second sentence makes a lot more sense, and actually confirms my post.

 

It's far more likely that the improvements in automobile technology, rather than the increase in construction costs of roads, whether they be underground or highways, was a cause for the shift.

 

Edit by Sherman Cahal: Fixed malformed quotation.