^---"What the city needs to do is clean up the vacant and underused properties and do the things cities have to do to entice modern industries to re-locate there, hopefully with some better building design standards than what have been acceptable the past 50 years."

 

  Um, isn't that what the City did with Queensgate? Almost all of Queensgate is a result of urban renewal.

 

  But Queensgate is a suburban office park design! The only thing that distinguishes Queensgate from any other suburban office park is that it is surrounded by older urban areas, and connects to the surrounding street grid.

 

    Granted, there are a few vacant lots. Otherwise, Queensgate as an urban renewal project has been nothing but successful. Some will lament the loss of the neighborhoods that Queensgate replaced.

What would be an example of a modern urban industrial area?  I don't disagree that the suburban industrial park mode isn't good for an inner city development, and Queensgate is an example of that sort of thing.  Still, how else would it be done?  Many of the most interesting warehouse/industrial districts get redeveloped into mixed commercial/residential areas, but they're decidedly no longer industrial. 

 

Unfortunately, it seems even industries that utilize rail transportation heavily are still single-story operations that require many loading docks for trucks and a large footprint.  Many industrial processes have been so highly automated and specified that it seems almost impossible for them to adapt to multi-story buildings.  It's sort of like fast food chains, if they can't build to their standard plan on a clean slate, they won't do it because it might cost 5% more.

 

All that said, it would certainly be valuable to have streetcar connections from a neighborhood like Over-the-Rhine to a neighborhood like Queensgate, Brighton, and Camp Washington.  The Spring Grove Avenue corridor for instance has a lot of abandoned sites that are ripe for industrial redevelopment, but at the same time there's also a lot of great old industrial buildings, whether occupied or not, and it's still a surprisingly busy place.  I personally feel that Spring Grove Avenue between the Western Hills Viaduct and I-74 is one of the most interesting parts of the city.  It's so old-school, with some great architecture, and yet it's almost 100% industrial. 

 

Anyway, not to digress further, if a streetcar connection to 3-C trains at CUT does happen, I wouldn't expect much of anything other than industrial use west of I-75.  There's virtually no historic fabric left to build upon, and it simply doesn't have any appeal as a place for people to live.  Even if the industrial uses are fairly low-key, which many of the newer places in Queensgate are, as it gets quite dead in the evening, the fact remains that railroad yards are very noisy places.  Being hemmed between a major interstate highway and busy railroad yards with freight cars banging into each other all day and night isn't going to get many people wanting to live there.  The rest of Ezzard Charles east of I-75 on the other hand would definitely benefit. 

Lets keep this discussion about the Cincinnati Streetcar.  I will more than likely move these most recent posts about Queensgate to another thread in the coming days.

 

  Well, the premise of the streetcar is to facilitate redevelopment of the area around the route, so if a route through a certain neighborhood is mentioned, we tend to discuss redevelopment of that neighborhood. It's tough to discuss one without the other.

 

  Redevelopment of the Cincinnati urban core and mass transit cannot occur without the other. 

 

  Cheers. 

 

    ^----"Walking from Union Terminal to the backside of Music Hall doesn't take long at all."

 

    You underestimate the effect of distance on normal people. Sure, UrbanOhioans love to walk. Most people do not. Just look at how much effort people make to park their cars close to downtown.

   

 

Oh no, I get it. No one likes going anywhere with me b/c I always just insist that we walk.

I know all about pedestrian friendly development and all that jazz, but I've never thought about my love of walking as a characteristic that I share with Urban Ohioans and not the majority of the general population.  I take a walk everyday and have since I was old enough to walk my dog around the block when I was 6.  Maybe that is one reason I love urban areas.  Hmmm, I wonder if the "walking community" (ie people who walk a lot) of the suburbs would be an especially open-minded segment of the population to proselytize with the urban gospel. BTW, is there a thread just for pedestrian friendly issues or does it permeate all related threads?

 

Back to topic, Cincinnati has a real gem of an asset in CUT.  Not only is it a functional rail terminal with great aesthetics and history, but it also is close to downtown, in an area ripe for redevelopment (argh I-75) and serves as the boundary of a sort of western frontier of 'downtown Cincinnati' IMO.

 

 

If Cincinnati had to do a 'heritage trolley line' I think the line between Music Hall and CUT would be the best place for it. We could steal some PCC's from Philly. As long as the West End continues to have serious safety issues, I'd be worried about expansion there.

Lets keep this discussion about the Cincinnati Streetcar. I will more than likely move these most recent posts about Queensgate to another thread in the coming days.

 

There already is a North Coast Transportion Center thread for Cleveland, so a CUT thread might be worthwhile too, especially since this area may be the subject of development and access improvement efforts in the coming months and years by the Port of Greater Cincinnati Development Authority....

 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/trac/Submitted%20Applications/2009D08-02.pdf

From the terminal's front door to the edge of its parking lot is a full quarter-mile.  The lot has just about 1,000 spaces. The total distance between the terminal and Music Hall is 5,000ft., so just under a mile. 

 

I don't see a Union Terminal streetcar as having a high ROI without City West and Union Terminal's parking lot property put on the open market.  There basically zero private property along that mile-long stretch. 

Has anyone heard any news regarding grant announcements for the streetcar coming anytime soon??

I've been obsessively checking these forums and all kinds of local news outlets for word about the TIGER grants and so forth!  I can't wait to find out if we get any funding or not!

Has anyone heard any news regarding grant announcements for the streetcar coming anytime soon??

I've been obsessively checking these forums and all kinds of local news outlets for word about the TIGER grants and so forth!  I can't wait to find out if we get any funding or not!

 

Patience young grasshopper.  We will all be finding out very soon.

Coming Soon...

Those are nice! Where will they be available?

streetcar m&m's!

streetcar m&m's!

Uhm, I think you mean Skittles. Taste the rainbow!

 

Those look yummy.

streetcar m&m's!

Uhm, I think you mean Skittles. Taste the rainbow!

 

Those look yummy.

 

I looked into it and custom m & m's are extremely expensive (21 oz was $40; 5 lbs was over $100) but if anyone wants to do it, I have m & m sized art available.

Of course, having a streetcar connection to Union Terminal would be great.  It's pathetic that it never got that connection when it was built in the first place, despite the close proximity to several routes on Western Avenue.

 

 

Didn't CUT have streetcars/trolleys that went straight into the building from one of the three wing-entrances and out the other side?

No, they were planned but never installed.  It's really a shame too.

No, they were planned but never installed. It's really a shame too.

Let's make that a reality!

 

All together now: streeeeetcar! streeeetCAR! STREEEEETCAR!

No, they were planned but never installed.  It's really a shame too.

 

A similar streetcar facility was built at Buffalo's Central Terminal but the mobbed-up taxi companies prevented the extension of streetcar tracks from a nearby line.

 

  CUT had three ramps for connections to downtown. One was for taxis, one for buses, and one for streetcars. These three each had separate entrances and exits, which can be seen on either side of the rotunda. In addition, there is an automobile loop right outside of the front door.

 

  The only part that wasn't used was the streetcar ramp. Inside the rotunda, you can still see the signs for taxis and buses, but not streetcars.

 

   

A streetcar button would look great next to the Judas Priest, Armored Saint and W.A.S.P. buttons on my jean jacket. Too bad I'm in Columbus now and nobody would know what's going on except dmerkow and David.

I know this is several months late, but if another "Issue 9" comes about, this illustrates one of the problems with such things. 

 

I know this is several months late, but if another "Issue 9" comes about, this illustrates one of the problems with such things.

 

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

-misattributed to Benjamin Franklin

This is a truly amazing video that was posted last week on YouTube.......

 

 

I am in awe. Please share it far and wide.

I thought it was a totally goofy video.  That site does make some interesting diagrams/maps though.

Aww I hoped that this was what the future would look like...I suppose I can settle

http://www.citykin.com/2010/02/magic-highway-predicting-today.html

I always love learning about what the future looked like to people living in different eras. I guess a lot of what was predicted in 1958 has come true, for better or worse. I hope our grandiose vision of transit in the future end up happening and that in 50 years someone won't look back and laugh.

 

Aww I hoped that this was what the future would look like...I suppose I can settle

http://www.citykin.com/2010/02/magic-highway-predicting-today.html

I always love learning about what the future looked like to people living in different eras. I guess a lot of what was predicted in 1958 has come true, for better or worse. I hope our grandiose vision of transit in the future end up happening and that in 50 years someone won't look back and laugh.

 

Neat video.  They didn't realize the importance of the human scale and the fact that we're born with two legs not four wheels.

 

Can't wait to hear a more definite plan for the streetcar.

Here's a photo from Philadelphia for those who claim streetcars can't run in the snow:

 

 

(In fairness, Philly eventually did shut down the Subway-Surface trolleys, but by that time buses and highways had long ceased to function. Both rapid transit lines and some commuter rail lines remained in service. The city received 28.5" of snow.)

The West Philly Trolleys biggest problem is at the entrance to the subway. Ice problems happen a lot. They have an alternate track that takes passengers to the Market St. subway at 40th and Market.

 

    As I understand it, the biggest problem with cold weather operation is ice fouling the switches, forcing operators to clean them out. This problem can be mitigated by designing the system with as few switches as possible. A well designed system might have only one switch between a single loop and the maintenance facility, with more switches possible in the maintenance facility. This is another good reason not to have the complicated connection between the OTR loop and uptown.

 

    Another problem is slipping on ice on steep grades. The CH&D nearby had trouble with this, and even had a runaway train due to ice on the rails; the grade was 4 percent.

 

 

  Do modern streetcars have sand? Just wondering.

 

 

  Do modern streetcars have sand? Just wondering.

 

Yes they do, and I happen to have a zoomed up picture to illustrate.

Dude, you are a photographic quick-draw! Nice job!

 

    As I understand it, the biggest problem with cold weather operation is ice fouling the switches, forcing operators to clean them out. This problem can be mitigated by designing the system with as few switches as possible. A well designed system might have only one switch between a single loop and the maintenance facility, with more switches possible in the maintenance facility. This is another good reason not to have the complicated connection between the OTR loop and uptown.

 

 

I'm guessing they will be installing switch-warmers to deal with this, but you're right, the fewer switches and crosses, the better.

 

As I understand it, the biggest problem with cold weather operation is ice fouling the switches, forcing operators to clean them out. This problem can be mitigated by designing the system with as few switches as possible. A well designed system might have only one switch between a single loop and the maintenance facility, with more switches possible in the maintenance facility. This is another good reason not to have the complicated connection between the OTR loop and uptown.

 

 

I'm guessing they will be installing switch-warmers to deal with this, but you're right, the fewer switches and crosses, the better.

 

The converse of that is that switches and crossbacks allow you to operate part of the system in the event of disruptions

 

Handicapped Accessibility on the Streetcar

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/handicapped-accessibility-on-the-streetcar/

Does anyone see the area between the railyard and I-75 becoming the next hot destination?

 

If CUT becomes a major passenger rail station once again and it's connected to the rest of the basin with a modern streetcar then all of a sudden that corridor between CUT and Downtown via OTR becomes VERY desirable. CUT already has a redevelopment plan on the books to build on the parking lots that currently exist out front...this could very much be accelerated if and when the aforementioned items become reality.

^I was just typing the exact response as Rando. CUT matters when it comes to rail of all kinds. I don't know about I-75 and the "Gateway" mentioned earlier but I do know Cincinnati's future is inextricably linked to OTR's future.

 

I doubt we'd get any resistance if a developer wanted to annihilate a large swath of land in Queensgate. No buildings in that area are worth saving, except CUT and the old Hudy plant. If saving OTR structures and streetcar development forces developers with their "Large Block Experiments" to go west near CUT,........... So be it! I'd sure welcome that!

From UrbanCincy.com on GoCincinnati: http://www.urbancincy.com/2008/01/cincinnati-is-ready-to-go.html

 

The analysis is overall not flattering, but does report a stable industrial market that is holding strong against regional competition...and that with a little more attention could easily establish itself as the premier industrial market for a couple of categories (i.e. Flex/R&D space and Green Industrial Parks). There are currently only 18 green industrial parks in the nation, and the potential of turning Queensgate into one poses possibly the greatest opportunity, and the ability to position Cincinnati as, "a global leader in 'green development' via the rehabilitation of these spaces." (pg. 34)

 

and

 

The report states, "It is strongly recommended that the streetcar line be completed between Downtown, Uptown, and OTR in the 1st phase of its construction. There is probably no infrastructure investment that will have more long-term tax generation and economic development benefit to the city than this streetcar line." (pg. 40)

 

read the rest by Rando: http://www.urbancincy.com/2008/01/cincinnati-is-ready-to-go.html

The Streetcar Will Be Great for: The World Choir Games

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/the-streetcar-will-be-great-for-the-world-choir-games/

 

Can anyone explain to me why the streetcar route is only one block wide through downtown?  Wouldn't it make a little more sense to keep it at least two blocks apart so a greater percentage of downtown is "within one block of the streetcar" instead of the current map that has the blocks between Walnut and Main in the CBD and Race and Elm in OTR "within half a block of the streetcar"?

it's been covered but here is the quick answer. 

 

We have alternating north south one way streets.  so your options are 1 block, 3 blocks or 5 blocks.  5 is obviously too far.

 

3 blocks it also probably to far, think about getting off at race and having to walk to main to pick the streetcar back up.  it is about a 1/4 mile walk and you lose route legibility. 

 

Basically 1 block apart is the best balance between spreading development and route legibility and ease of use.

No no no!  Every block more than zero that you split the route apart makes it that much less useful as an actual transportation option.  If you keep pulling apart northbound and southbound traffic, sure you can say a business is "just one block from the streetcar" but you'll have to follow that up with "but only in one direction, it's three blocks if you want to go back the way you came."

Ok, gotcha.  Thanks.

Main and Walnut were chosen because the overpasses over Fort Washington Way on Main and Walnut were specifically designed to carry streetcars. Also, Main and Walnut provide the best access to the Government Square bus hub.

OK, aren't we just a day or two away from hearing whether Cincinnati will get TIGER money for the streetcar? I thought Feb. 17 was the deadline for making TIGER awards?

When the thread gets to 300 pages, there will be an announcement. 

Main and Walnut were chosen because the overpasses over Fort Washington Way on Main and Walnut were specifically designed to carry streetcars.

I always assumed Main over FWW had the cable-stayed look to it for some reason beyond aesthetics.  Is the Walnut span any different than the Vine or Race spans?

^

The cable-stayed bridges over FWW are purely for aesthetics. The prep for the light rail is in the roadbed.

No no no! Every block more than zero that you split the route apart makes it that much less useful as an actual transportation option. If you keep pulling apart northbound and southbound traffic, sure you can say a business is "just one block from the streetcar" but you'll have to follow that up with "but only in one direction, it's three blocks if you want to go back the way you came."

 

Light Rail (for the I-71 Corridor) had 19% of the monetized benefits as development related and 81% of the monetized benefits as mobility related.  Compare that to the streetcar which has 87.9% of the monetized benefits as development related and 12.1% of the monetized benefits as mobility related.

 

You have to strike a balance between the two types of benefits and one block spacing strikes a good balance.

The main and walnut bridges were prepped for light rail, not streetcars.  Obviously streetcars are lighter than light rail trains, so there is no weight issue.  Main and Walnut were chosen because they aligned with the Mt. Auburn tunnel.  Light Rail trains cannot turn on the same tight radius and by chance the Walnut/Main pair was perfect for the I-71 light rail line since it went through the busiest part of downtown and because 2nd and 3rd offer a place to make a wide turn toward an Ohio River Bridge that was planned to be built immediately adjacent to the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge.   

 

Also, 2nd St. above the transit center and I believe 3rd St. are both prepped for light rail as well, as is the 2nd St. ramp down to Broadway and Pete Rose Way.  The prepping added almost nothing to the construction costs in 2000, but will save a ton of money and disruption now. 

Ok, but focusing on the development benefits is a choice that was made when developing the project.  Considering the state of Over-the-Rhine that does make some sense.  However, I wouldn't say an 88/12 ratio is at all a "good balance," and this is where I disagree with the project's priorities.  The split and zig-zagging route is obviously intended to spread as much redevelopment potential around the neighborhood, but to the detriment of good mobility.  By doing this, it makes the system that much more difficult to expand in the future, since running times will be impeded by the core spine we're building now.  It also reinforces the perception that the streetcar is just a toy, and that it's not really a viable transportation system. 

 

Just look at the Uptown connection for instance.  The route is ok in and of itself, but the way it connects with the OTR loop is an unmitigated operational disaster.  From the point of view of someone going from Uptown to Findlay Market and back, it's not too bad, and even for someone going from Uptown to Downtown, it works ok.  However, for someone going north from Downtown or just a bit south of Findlay Market, it's a mess.  Upon reaching Elm and Elder, I'll bet one could get off the streetcar, walk through Findlay market, and pick up the same car at Race and Elder without breaking a sweat.  The route takes essentially a five block u-turn to go just one block east.  That's just silly.  As an OTR circulator that doesn't matter, but it really makes the Uptown connection a lot less attractive.

 

I've mentioned several times that I'd prefer two-way operation on Vine Street for the route, at least north of Central Parkway, so I won't go into that again.  Still, I think the north end loop needs to be seriously reconsidered.  My first thought would be to just cut Henry and Elder Streets out of it and make Findlay Street two-way (for all road traffic).  It's also less expensive since there's less track to build! 

 

 

Of course I want to see preservation and redevelopment happen in OTR, but I also want to see the streetcar plan be successful and expand in the future.  I think putting so much emphasis on the redevelopment aspects of the streetcar hurts its future viability.  There's no reason streetcars have to be relegated to mere "urban circulators" while light rail is used for "real" transportation.  Keep in mind that Cincinnati's historic streetcar system basically defined the city limits we have today, and in a few cases even extended beyond.  Route 78 to Lockland was the longest of the streetcar lines (not counting ones that bought out dying interurbans) at some 12 miles.  That is a bit of a stretch, but to say that Uptown or Hyde Park or Westwood need light rail and not streetcar connections is very narrow thinking as far as I'm concerned.  There's ways to do it, and part of that is to make this first project work as well as possible.