do you have a schedule further out ?

airfares with less than a weeks notice are insanely high.

500 v 1400 bucks

 

No, I book these trips when the hotel will give us a good deal. We'll probably go again in June, but the hotel and air fares will be higher then since that's the peak season.

 

We're not going in a week, but in six weeks -- on February 16th. I'm sure you can get there for less than $500.

 

 

So Cincinnati has only just started a study on streetcars for the city and yet has a longer thread than Columbus which has finished its study. If this site is anything to go by, there are even more people there who are enthusiastic & pro-streetcar, which should bode well.

^---- Cincinnati has been studying streetcars ever since streetcars were invented!  :-D

 

  Well, we have at least since the time that the uncompleted subway was built.

In today's USA Today:

Cities rediscover allure of streetcars

 

In Portland, Ore., ridership of its downtown streetcar system has tripled projections.

 

By Haya El Nasser, USA TODAY

 

The streetcars that rumbled and clanged through many American cities from the late 1800s until World War II helped shape neighborhoods. More than a half-century later, streetcars are coming back and reviving the same neighborhoods they helped create.

Several cities have resurrected the streetcar tradition and about three dozen others plan to — from Tucson, and Birmingham, Ala., to Miami and Trenton, N.J.

The important thing to look at in this article is the public investment multiplier. 

 

10 to 1 in Little rock

28.5 to 1 in Portland (based on a 80 million dollar project)

18 to 1 in Tampa.

 

Also it seems like almost every streetcar line is about 2.5 miles.

Just learned that Cincinnnati City Council member Chris Bortz and City Architect Michael Moore will be on Channel 12 "Newsmakers" this Sunday to talk about the city streetcar study, now underway and due to be complete in April.

 

Starts at 11:00a on Channel 12, Cincinnati. Tune in and see what they say. If you like what you hear, send a note to Chris Bortz @ Cincinnati City Hall, 801 Plum Street, Cincinnnati 45202.

Also, send a note to the host, Dan Hurley, at WKRC Channel 12, 1906 Highland Avenue, Cincinnati, 45219. Once in a Blue Moon, he reads letters on the air.

WOW!!!  Thats some good/encouraging news.  I know that public officials usually like to keep things quite and out of the public eye until things seem VERY promising.  So as I said, I find this VERY ENCOURAGING!!!

The Channel 12 newsmakers broadcast about the streetcar was awesome.  It bodes well for the project.

Good luck with this my friends!  I served on the Mayor's Working Group for the Downtown Columbus Streetcar proposal and part of our group visited Portland for a first-hand look and came back with rave reviews and information confirming that introduction of the line and its extension have had a very significant and positive effect on both business and residential development, but on traffic congestion as well.

 

The interesting thing about Portland's system is that it didn't even come close to the city's convention center and it still had a huge impact.  Columbus' system will serve to connect both downtown venues, as well as the Short North, Columbus Convention Center, German Village and the Arena District.  It is also being designed to be an expandable system.

 

BTW: I was in St. Louis recently on business and rode their light rail system extensively.  Amazing how well used it is, and at all hours of the day and evening.  They have a new multi-modal transportation center under construction near the current Amtrak station.

 

I was also very impressed with the Busch Stadium stop.  Very clean and well-lit.  The stops are also monitored by security cameras and it was not unusual to see police and security guards maintaining a polite but noticeable visibility in the area.

 

And I gotta tell ya... the sight of the new Busch Stadium when you arrive at the station is awesome!

 

The Channel 12 newsmakers broadcast about the streetcar was awesome.  It bodes well for the project.

 

Is the video streaming anywhere? 

Go to wkrc.com,  click on Newsmakers

There you will find 2 links to last week's show that both get a 404

Is it some kind of regulation that every media website in Cincinnati has to suck ?

That being said, it was a pretty good interview. I think Hurley really likes the idea.

They said the first phase of feasaility investigation should be completed by this spring.

I watched Newsmakers and it was pretty good.  They plugged John's next trip to Portland.

God I would love to see a streetcar in downtown and OTR.

I was on a Portland website last week and people were complaining about how slow the streetcars were, because they must compete with car traffic through much of their route.  One comment was something like "I could walk faster".

 

Can the streetcars be made to automatically change redlights to green? (I know this can easily be done, as firetrucks have this capability in many cities) Can they be given a dedicated traffic lane?  If they are given their own lane, then is parallel parking on that side of the street eliminated?

 

My understanding is that the positives of streetcars are:  low cost compared to other rail, fixed route, smooth, quiet, regularity, low to ground and a spur to development.  However,  to really be a success it should have pleasant stops with shelter from the weather, and must be able to get through traffic.  Also a great idea are the stops that have an electronic readout saying how many minutes until the next car arrives.

When i went to the uptown transportation study, one of the traffic engineers was talking about allowing the 17 bus to flip the lights, i would assume that streetcars could, but not necessarily will be given this capability.

I was on a Portland website last week and people were complaining about how slow the streetcars were, because they must compete with car traffic through much of their route.  One comment was something like "I could walk faster".

 

Counting the time that it's boarding and de-boarding passengers, you could perhaps walk faster than a streetcar for a block or so, but not for the average trip length of a couple of miles. People use the Portland Streetcar as a "pedestrian accelerator." They may start walking toward a destination, see the streetcar coming, and jump on board it to speed up their trip. That's a key thing -- by offering frequent service along a fixed route, what the streetcar really does is break the link with the car and gets people walking again. It extends the range of the pedestrian. So what you get is a result is a lot more eyes on the street, more and better street-level retail and more localized shopping. That's what we always see when we take people to Portland -- a lot more people walking or cycling everywhere.

 

In addition to having the next streetcar arrival time displayed at each shelter, I get the arrival times on may Blackberry -- the next three arrivals, actually. So you don't waste time heading for a stop any sooner than you have to.

 

I'm doubtful that City of Cincinnati traffic engineers are prepared to permit "hold on green" to give the driver the ability to speed up the travel of buses or rail.

Part of the problem with Portland's system is that they have much longer wait times in between streetcars.... trip frequencies or "headways".  I believe they run as much as ten minutes in between arrivals at any station.  That would account for people walking faster than the streetcars.  Evene with that, their ridership is solid and growing.

 

The system that Columbus is planning would cut those headways in half, making it far more convenient and timely.

Just to give an example. it's 8:01a PST in Portland now, and the next streetcar is due at the Library in 5 minutes, then 21 minutes, then 35 minutes -- in real time.

^Pretty cool.  Is there anyone doing easier ways to pay the fare, like swipe an atm card or scan your bus card and bill your credit card for the rides once a month?

Did anyone ever find the WKRC video yet?

http://www.local12.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=86

http://www.local12.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=86

 

Thanks Melanie!

 

What a great interview. We are privileged to have someone like Chris Bortz on city council. I really hope something comes out of this, I would love for the streetcar system to come to fruition!

 

By the way, great site, John! Very easy to use and informative. I really like the design as well.

WOW....That interview really got me pumped up about the possibility of streetcars in Cincinnati.  It is VERY encouraging to hear that not only do we have transit people on board (no pun intended) but also politicians, people in the media, and potentially big businesses looking to attract yp's!!!

 

If there is anything I can do to assist in the process let me know...I will also continue to spread the good word to EVERYONE I know!!!!

This morning B105 was talking about the possibility of streetcars in Cincinnati, all of the DJ's were for it... which is good, lol, I'm pretty sure they were prompted by this article

 

 

 

City studies streetcar system

BY JON NEWBERRY | [email protected]

The city of Cincinnati has hired a national engineering group to study a streetcar link of the riverfront and downtown business district with Over-the-Rhine.

 

The initial phase would likely be a three- to four-mile loop. An extension to the University of Cincinnati and city hospital complex could be part of the first phase or come later.

Noting that streetcar systems are much easier and cheaper to build than light rail, Bortz said it's feasible that streetcars could be up and running within two years if the city pursued it aggressively.

 

WOW!!!!  That is even a quicker timetable than what I had initially thought!  It seems as though a lot of things are falling in line to get this thing into reality.

^That's a really aggressive timeline. I hope they can pull it off.

 

But the "if the city pursued it aggressively" is a big IF.

That's basically the same timeline that was given for Columbus' proposed system.  Streetcars don't require the deep bed that commuter or even light rail requires.  My understanding is that, it just amounts to tearing up a lane of road, laying down tracks, pouring concrete, throwing up some basic stations, and stringing the power lines.  I'd guess procurement of the cars would take nearly as long as construction.

Cincinnati May Revamp Streetcar System

 

:clap:  Streetcars will bring life and rebirth along the entire route.

That's basically the same timeline that was given for Columbus' proposed system.  Streetcars don't require the deep bed that commuter or even light rail requires.  My understanding is that, it just amounts to tearing up a lane of road, laying down tracks, pouring concrete, throwing up some basic stations, and stringing the power lines.  I'd guess procurement of the cars would take nearly as long as construction.

 

Oh, my concern wouldn't be a construction timeline. I would just expect delays in the planning, funding, approval phase.

 

I've never felt better about the prospects for transit in Cincinnati than I do at this moment. I'm trying to measure my expectations so I'm not too disappointed if things fall through.

^In terms of funding...I don't think that it will slow the project down much.  I would imagine that the restructuring of SORTA funding has some relevance to this (a streetcar system was in the MetroMoves Comp Plan) and some funding would come from SORTA, then some from a TID or another creative finance district of sorts, then some from the city/state/feds wherever possible...then finally it would probably be nice if a corporate citizen ponied up some money to get the thing over the hump...and potentially spark an expanded first phase.

There is room on the east side of the purple people bridge for a streetcar wouldn't this be nice..

 

I've never felt better about the prospects for transit in Cincinnati than I do at this moment

My thoughts exactly Cramer.

This topic has got me all pumped up about  the riverfront, downtown, OTR, uptown and the city in general more than any other project that may happen.

 

 

^I would think that they would leave that rail connection over the river open to a potential light rail line.  That rail row would seem to be bigger than what a streetcar demands, but who knows, maybe they could use this for the streetcar...and potentially build a smalle bridge spanning the river for a future light rail line.

Chris Bortz on 700 WLW any minute talking about downtown Cincinnati streetcar. [2:35p]

Short and sweet ... even Billy Cunningham was in favor of it.

[i've never felt better about the prospects for transit in Cincinnati than I do at this moment. I'm trying to measure my expectations so I'm not too disappointed if things fall through.

 

Me too.  I'm pretty excited by the prospects.

Short and sweet ... even Billy Cunningham was in favor of it.

 

I was saying that if you can convince Billy of this...you can convince anyone!!!  I feel really good about the prospects of this project!!!

I'm not sure if anyone on here is knowledgeable on how this group is planning to pay for this ($100million) and have it done in two years.  Will it be completely privately funded without any government assistance (grants, loans, etc)...if so who are the parties that are potentially picking up the tab (if you're not at liberty to say...at least state that you cannot say who it is).

 

I really want this to get done.....AND SOON!!!  Government assistance will take time to process agreements and work out contracts and what not...just wondering of any information..

This is awesome. It's funny too, because I doubt that at this point the general public has any clue that this is going on. People are so oblivious. Once we start seeing actual physical stuff going on (i.e. fundraising or construction) people really won't think this is serious, or even care....with the exception of all of us on here.

This is awesome. It's funny too, because I doubt that at this point the general public has any clue that this is going on. People are so oblivious. Once we start seeing actual physical stuff going on (i.e. fundraising or construction) people really won't think this is serious, or even care....with the exception of all of us on here.

 

Very true...the general public will wait until the ribbon cutting and then get all up in arms, and say its a waste of taxpayer money (even though taxpayer money won't be involved...I can see it now)!

to the best of my knowledge, TIF (Tax increment financing) would be able to cover the costs.

 

Basically here is how it works. 

 

We assume that the 100 million dollar project will generate private development that will increase property values. 

 

In portland this was 28.5 to 1.

 

If the multiplier holds true, we would have 2.85 billion in development along the line.

 

At a one percent tax rate on the new development, the city would make 28.5 million a year.

 

The city then sells bonds at a rate of 4.75%, using the expectant tax revenues of the development spurred by the creation of the line to finance the repayment of the bonds.  This can generate nearly 325 million dollars.

 

All of this I took from slides 53-56 of the streetcar presentation on citystreetcar.net.  In reality it is more complicated, so ask John Schnieder.

^I saw the same presentation...but I was discussing with someone this issue...and we were wondering if a TIFF already exists on that land.  If so can a 2nd TIFF be generated from the same property??

That's right, and Michael Moose has used a very conservative argument. Portland achieved the 28.5 multiplier in the first five years from the first phase alone; we figured it would take 20 years for the same result in Cincinnati. Portland is now planning the fourth phase of the streetcar. None of benefits from subsequent phases have been calculated yet, but they are substantial, probably exceeding what was built in the first phase.

 

Keep in mind, this is only the fiscal case as it relates to the property tax leverage. The truth is, there will be lots of people working and living in the new buildings along the route, and they will be paying earnings and sales taxes which, in the aggregate, far exceed property tax collections.

 

And imagine the increase in household income because fewer cars have to be paid for.

 

The business case is really strong.

For Cincy's sake, I really hope this comes to fruition.

 

You get the benefits of rail transit, even if it's not as fast or quite as sexy as light rail, or a subway.  The costs are lower (I think DC's line under construction is costing $10 million for 1.1 miles), so you don't necessarily have to run to the FTA for funding, which has been very anti-rail and pro-BRT since 2001.  I don't think you can lose, as long as you make the business case.  Numbers like that, though, speak for themselves.

 

Once Cincy has its streetcars up and running, perhaps its big brother on the lake could learn a  thing or two.

 

This is the fun part.  :-D What route (streets) do you think would be the best for phase #1 and #2.

 

 

Phase 1: Vine St and a street near the stadiums and maybe 5th.

 

Phase 2: Central parkway, OTR via Clifton or Liberty even. And maybe some connection to uptown via Vine->Jefferson. I'm not a pro on these issues, so I'm sure someone will have a better idea than me  :-D

That's right, and Michael Moose has used a very conservative argument. Portland achieved the 28.5 multiplier in the first five years from the first phase alone; we figured it would take 20 years for the same result in Cincinnati. Portland is now planning the fourth phase of the streetcar. None of benefits from subsequent phases have been calculated yet, but they are substantial, probably exceeding what was built in the first phase.

 

Keep in mind, this is only the fiscal case as it relates to the property tax leverage. The truth is, there will be lots of people working and living in the new buildings along the route, and they will be paying earnings and sales taxes which, in the aggregate, far exceed property tax collections.

 

And imagine the increase in household income because fewer cars have to be paid for.

 

The business case is really strong.

 

I agree that the case is very strong, and that a more conservative estimate is appropriate for Cincinnati. I wouldn't expect a 28 to 1 multiplier on this. Besides other important differences, Portland has an urban growth boundary influencing development patterns.

^I saw the same presentation...but I was discussing with someone this issue...and we were wondering if a TIFF already exists on that land.  If so can a 2nd TIFF be generated from the same property??

 

I was under the impression that Ohio did away with TIFs at the end of 2005, or did they just weaken its effects/benefits/capabilities? I'm sure most remember the rush to establish them (everywhere) before the end of the year.

"Smoke 'em if you got 'em."

 

If a city had its Tax Increment Financing Districts in place by whenever the deadline was, then that city has TIF capacity. In this sense, Cincinnati may have a really unique advantage because the TIF districts are all in place here.

 

Mike Moose's case shows that by speeding up and enriching development sites, the streetcar throws off more TIF than it consumes, like by 2:1. And it spreads benefits around the public realm instead of enriching developers and users.

 

A reporter asked me today about Chris Bortz's goal of getting a starter streetcar line open in two years, and I said that was an ambitious goal. Thinking more about it, I think it could be done if all oars were pulling the same way. Someone else said it here today -- the opening could be delayed because the rolling stock can't be manufactured quickly enough.

 

After pushing the light rail boulder up the hills around here for a decade, I can tell you that there is acceptance, even enthusiasm, for the streetcar coming from surprising places such as above the fold on Page One of the Enquirer on a day with a remarkable amount of news. Still trying to figure that one out.

For Cincy's sake, I really hope this comes to fruition.

 

You get the benefits of rail transit, even if it's not as fast or quite as sexy as light rail, or a subway.  The costs are lower (I think DC's line under construction is costing $10 million for 1.1 miles), so you don't necessarily have to run to the FTA for funding, which has been very anti-rail and pro-BRT since 2001.  I don't think you can lose, as long as you make the business case.  Numbers like that, though, speak for themselves.

 

Once Cincy has its streetcars up and running, perhaps its big brother on the lake could learn a   thing or two.

 

 

1. This is the beginning, LRT will follow. Our leaders, IMO want this to come to fruition.

 

2. I'm not sure that I know anyone in Cincy that considers Cleveland a "big brother".

John, I know you mentioned calling into to radio stations etc ...

 

... but what else could we do as citizens to get proactive?