I forgot I took these photos of the Clifton hill back in March.  They did a terrific job with this stone wall reconstruction last year as opposed to the fake precast concrete stone walls around town. 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, they really went all out on that project.  The sad part is that if they do decide on a Clifton routing for the streetcar, they'd have to dig all that up and reconstruct that curve...again!  That would be a huge waste. 

 

It is nice to see some more sensible treatment of the walls, especially for a historic area.  That whole hillside was a quarry for this type of stone, so it's fitting that they actually use some of it.  Some people in the city's transportation department seem to have taken a more pragmatic approach to things like this, which I really appreciate.  The reuse of the granite curb stones in places like Oakley Square, St. Gregory Street, and Woodburn Avenue are just one example.  They dug up a bunch of those stones in front of my apartment here on Madison Road this week, and the ones they aren't just leaving in place are being taken back to the city maintenance yards to be reused elsewhere, rather than just thrown away.  Bravo. 

The Clifton hill work was a $6 million project so in the context of a $120+ million project some work at this corner would not constitute a large percentage of the overall work. 

 

Maybe not, but nothing screams "boondoggle" like reconstructing a major road then tearing it up a few years later.  That's $6 million that the city will have just thrown away, that they could've spent on other things.  It's just like all the gas and water line work going on.  The city paves the road, then a year or two later Duke and the GCWW comes in and digs the crap out of it.  They do temporary patches, then later come back and completely repave either the whole street or one lane.  The city may have used the new pavement as leverage in getting the more extensive patch repaving done, and they may view it as getting an extra 2-3 years of new pavement out of the deal, but it's still a huge waste.  Rather than actually coordinating the work and repaving after everything's done, we get excessive amounts of construction and higher gas and water bills on top of it. 

^ That kind of stuff drives me insane.

 

  ^--- In the third photo of Clifton Avenue can be seen a stone pier that was formerly part of the Bellevue Incline.

 

    Unfortunately, utility planners to not coordinate with each other. In fact, they actually compete with each other for street space, the same way that traffic competes for street space.

Enquirer is coming out with another article Sunday morning.  Something to do with "Interests along the Route"

I saw that.  In the print edition this morning, it said the front page streetcar article would be "Business Interests Line Streetcar Route"

 

 

Wow, they really went all out on that project.  The sad part is that if they do decide on a Clifton routing for the streetcar, they'd have to dig all that up and reconstruct that curve...again!  That would be a huge waste.   

 

True, but they didn't know if the streetcar would be happening when they redid that.  Heck, they still don't even know if it will go up that street.  But if they do decide to take it up that route, you can't worry about redoing something that was recently completed.  It would be unfortunate, but it's a sunk cost at this point.  If that really is the best route, the city should proceed in that direction.  You can't plan for everything, sadly.

Opening day? Will it be on a special event day(Riverfest) or middle of the week? I wouldn't think it could handle the Riverfest crowds.

City sees rising property values, revitalized retail [the haters were up early on this holiday morning]

 

"We think the streetcar will help accelerate development, and I expect that it will start long before the tracks are actually laid."

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100906/BIZ01/9050355/Streetcar-path-lined-with-hope

Would have been great to have the streetcar after the fireworks:

 

^We may not have had a streetcar but did you know that there were two passenger trains at Riverfest?

 

 

If I had known traffic in Newport was going to be as bad as it was, I probably would've parked in Norwood and taken one of them.

 

Any idea what the ridership was like on those trains? I'm not sure many people knew about that option, as it didn't seem to be very well-publicized.

Wow... I had not heard about these trains. Were they shuttles?

Cincinnati Riverfest train 2010

I forgot I took these photos of the Clifton hill back in March. They did a terrific job with this stone wall reconstruction last year as opposed to the fake precast concrete stone walls around town.

 

wow, I haven't been over there in a while. Hope they didn't permanently displace any of the Lazarus lizards.

The Lizards are definitely still thriving, as anyone who periodically jogs up the staircases knows. 

yeah... i regularly can find 20-30 in my driveway/yard area. They are def thriving!

Looks like Portman and Driehaus both have no interest in helping the streetcar project

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2010/09/08/portman-to-cincy-dont-expect-help-from-me-on-streetcar/

Disheartening a bit that they are not going to go out of their way to help the project. As long as they get the first leg built, though, the streetcar project can start to show its impact on the region and convince politicians like Driehaus and Portman to lend more support.

That's a safe thing to say.  Driehaus is basically running as a conservative Democrat...who voted for the health deform bill.

Just received this:

 

I’m writing to make sure you are among the first to know that the City of Cincinnati has chosen the Vine Street alternative as the route the streetcar will take to reach the Uptown area.  This route is the least expensive, offers the fewest engineering challenges and best positions the streetcar for future expansion.

 

We reached this decision after a process that was both inclusive and comprehensive.  The City and a group of stakeholders along both Vine Street and the alternative route, West Clifton Avenue, have been meeting to collect input and share ideas about each route for months.  The group was informed of the City’s decision at a meeting this afternoon.  In the final analysis, Vine Street was the best decision.

 

We estimate that the West Clifton route would have added some $20 million to the streetcar’s construction cost and $250,000 annually to operations.  The Vine Street route is not as steep, has fewer curves and offers a shorter commute time.  The Vine Street route also connects the streetcar to University Plaza, Kroger, the Short Vine entertainment district and The Christ Hospital, and is a logical jump-off point for future routes that would include University Hospital, Cincinnati Children’s and the Zoo.

 

Clearly, interest and excitement in the streetcar are increasing.  I appreciate your input on this critical issue.  I invite you to continue working with us to make this project a success.

 

Milton Dohoney

Milton Dohoney, Jr., City Manager

City of Cincinnati

 

^ Sweet! 

Enquirer Blog/Article:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2010/09/08/city-picks-vine-street-route-for-streetcar/

 

  Now if we could just get them to lose the 12-block zig-zag.  :?

^ That's a good point, and that's the flaw of the Vine Street (and Clifton Avenue) route that bothers me the most...how it connects with the downtown-OTR loop.  The TIGER II documents noted that the loops are not intended to be operated separately, but as a continuous single route.  That simplifies operations and the understanding of how the system works to users, though I wouldn't be surprised to see a more frequent Downtown-OTR ONLY service with higher frequency at some point.  Anyway, the report speaks to returning Findlay Street to two-way operation, and utilizing that as the sole connection to the OTR loop at Race Street.  While it's still a block south of Henry Street, it's much better than the completely idiotic Elder/Green routing we've seen previously.  Henry Street adds only two blocks to the trip to Uptown from Elm Street, as opposed to six blocks for Green Street.  I'm glad to see the project going in this direction, with a bit more focus on achieving good travel times and accounting for future expansion.  After all, there's not much point in linking Uptown and Downtown if the link is so slow that nobody will want to use it. 

I've tried to consolidate all of the studies and reports on the streetcar into one place here: http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/studies-and-reports-on-the-cincinnati-streetcar/

Forgive my ignorance, I've been looking around for the answer to this, but haven't seen a definitive answer. Everything I've seen shows phase 1 going all the way to the zoo. Is this really a part of phase 1 or will phase 1 be stopping at the top of vine street like I always assumed?

It looks like the top of Vine (somewhere around Calhoun and University Plaza).  All the most recent documents I've seen treat a route up Short Vine or to the Zoo as a later phase. 

Correct

Forgive my ignorance, I've been looking around for the answer to this, but haven't seen a definitive answer. Everything I've seen shows phase 1 going all the way to the zoo. Is this really a part of phase 1 or will phase 1 be stopping at the top of vine street like I always assumed?

The plan as it exists today is for the streetcar to continue north on Vine past McMillan and turn right onto Taft into a protected counterflow lane on Taft. The operator would drive the vehicle into the chute, pick up his radio, clipboard, and lunch bucket and walk to the other end of the vehicle and then drive it out to the west and south a couple of minutes later. You'd like to avoid this, but it's done in some cities where you don't have a loop at the endpoint.

 

At the other end of the line, on the south side of Freedom Way in the Banks project, there is a loop from Walnut to Main, and so the driver won't have to change positions, although there will still be some layover time there.

 

I hope they can find the money to turn right from northbound Vine onto Hollister to Auburn to Corry to an end-point on Corry @ Jefferson opposite UC's East Gate and reverse. Or be really bold and continue west across Jefferson deep into the campus terminating near Nippert Stadium. Serves many more people, a struggling business district, a hospital that's recommitting to the city and gets the streetcar deeper into two neighborhoods with good housing stocks. And sets up the streetcar to continue west to Clifton Heights, north to Ludlow and/or the Zoo, or northeast to the medical campus. If you're thinking in terms of network effects, it's the way to go. But it probably costs $5 to $10 million more not including the penetation into the UC campus.

I've said this before, but I really like the idea of streetcar tracks on campus. It would also create a better turn-around point than Taft & Vine. The Banks is a good "destination" for the southern end. The northern end needs a substantial bookend!

 

Taft & Vine would feel ad hoc and unpolished, which I think would damage the aesthetic feel, and therefore the ultimate appeal, of the streetcar as a whole. The Hollister loop to Jefferson might be better (especially due to the hospital connection), but still leaves one in want of a punctuation mark. Nippert would be a grade-A terminus, and waving the streetcar in front of students' faces like that would be great advertising. It would really help to weave the streetcar with the fabric of the area.

 

Plus it would be really great advertisement for the university (and therefore the city) as it strives to attract students from outside the area. It's already a high-class "urban campus". Rail transit on campus would knock that status out of the park. It would turn heads.

^ Yeah, instead of turning on Taft for a layover, go up a couple hundred feet and turn onto UC’s campus, ending by CCM/Nippert.  That would be an excellent place to layover for a few minutes, as it would start to fill up with the hundreds of pedestrians always passing by, all wondering what bar to go to or where to eat dinner.

I'd be all for a UC campus termination, especially if UC ponies up the funds for it, but what does that do to the potential for future extension?  That's one of the main reasons this route was selected, so a terminal inside UC would either become such an important thing for the campus that the line will never be expanded, or that terminal trackage would have to be abandoned later.  A loop just northeast of Jefferson/Corry or at Jefferson/Charlton would be a great thing, since it's actually on campus and could still be used as a pull-off when the line is extended farther north. 

I'd be happy if future phases involve new lines, rather than an extension of this one. UC could host a nice mini transit hub by Nippert and CCM where transfers can be made. This could serve the McMillan/Calhoun business district without actually interacting with traffic there and causing any of the potential problems which people on this board have voiced concerns about.

I think it would be huge for both UC and the streetcar if the streetcar would run on campus instead of just the periphery.

Is that circle at the west end of Daniels big enough for the Streetcar to turn around?

Probably just big enough. I think either the Daniel Circle or the one at University would make for good connections and future expansions. In fact, University Circle would be best because it's by campus green, can connect to woodside dr and on to MLK and Clifton -> Ludlow. It can also lead to future access up University to Corryville or down Vine toward the zoo.

^Yeah, it could come down Jefferson, turn at University and make a loop back around to Daniels, and back onto Jefferson, if that's what you mean.  That's the route the UC shuttle buses take to turn around on campus. If the route were ever extended, that would just become a slight bump out with a stop for south-bound trains.

I think that the route in Clifton/Corryville/Mt. Auburn/Avondale/Uptown area should be laid out with the intention of connecting areas that can be redeveloped or have just been redeveloped.  So, for example the turnaround on Daniels can be extended east later on the Daniels/Oak line.  You get an underdeveloped east/west route that connects important employment centers but doesn't mess with current heavy traffic routes (like Taft/McMillan).  Goodman Street (immediately north of MLK in the Medical Campus) and Scioto or Brookline (north/south route) through campus to the EPA and Ludlow might be good possibilities as well.

I think Greg Williams should get on this. He was at CUNY before UC, so he must understand the importance of quality public transit. Getting the streetcar on campus would be an extraordinary boon for the university, and the flexibility of the space (on campus) is something that could be studied and used to great effect for the city and its route choices, present and future.

 

It wouldn't even be necessary to adhere to the existing roads. For example, a streetcar could cut across one side of Sigma Sigma Commons, where Scioto used to connect to MLK. Then suppose the EPA allows ROW across their parking lot, and the streetcar proceeds onto Jefferson at Nixon. You've just eliminated a windy mess to get to Ludlow (not to mention the business district along Jefferson, which has several businesses as well as lots ripe for development).

 

My point is, UC should get on board, and all these possibilities (such as a UC transit hub) should be put on the table. Both the university and the city stand to benefit tremendously.

Temple, Penn, and Drexel in Philly both have SEPTA rail transit on their campuses - Temple has the Broad St. subway, while the Market St. subway runs along the edge of Penn and right through the Drexel campus. Meanwhile, the West Philly streetcars operate as a subway through the Penn campus. One of the streetcar/subway entrances on the Penn campus is an old streetcar that was hollowed and placed above the steps. It ties all those campuses into the region very well. Temple is also supposed to be upgrading their stop on the regional rail line as well.

 

So, yes, UC should seriously figure out a way to get this thing on campus.

^ And some others: Portland State - streetcar and light rail through the campus; San Diego State - light rail through campus; U Minn - building light rail through campus; probably others, too early in the morning.

If I were the short vine developers I would seriously reconsider the new Uptown Plaza concept.  Do they really need to go so suburban with a streetcar running pretty close to the facilities.  The city should see if they can convince the uptown plaza developers to change their plan.

^ My guess is that Kroger has say over what the new shopping center -- God, what an outdated name -- will look like, and Kroger has not been a supporter of rail in Cincinnati. It's kind of ironic since some of their Portland Fred Meyer stores are integrated part and parcel into some of the rail/bus transit centers there, and I see people with groceries often getting onto the light rail trains at those stops. My guess is that, at some level, grocery chains figure people will buy less if they can't stuff it into the trunks of their cars.

It's a legitimate concern from Kroger, in the sense that they have a store that makes money and a lease that runs through 2017 (I think).  This is where some intense direct lobbying to the CEO or someone similar with a plan in hand to address their concerns might do a lot of good.  Since their headquarters are about 4 blocks from City Hall it seems eminently doable, though I'm not sure who on council or in SORTA is going to find it important enough to make the case.

 

Maybe there will be enough time between the build to Findlay and the build up the hill to show that the streetcar will drive enough traffic to a grocery site to make a more urban friendly Kroger at UP will be profitable.  Or make a deal where the City gets the property and helps refurbish the Mitchell Avenue Kroger, or something like that.

Short Vine's fate is basically in Kroger's hands.

Short Vine's fate is basically in Kroger's hands.

 

So we should just give up on it now then? 

Not give up on it, but perhaps give up on bringing the streetcar directly through it.

 

With a through point at UP, a streetcar on Short Vine would make way more sense.

 

Obviously, if the streetcar makes it to Vine & Taft or along Jefferson, Short Vine will benefit. But there are a lot of competing business areas which have taken some life from Short Vine, and which also stand to receive some peripheral, or eventually perhaps direct, benefit from the streetcar. Historically, Short Vine was made for a streetcar, and presently the speed and height of its potential revival are directly related to what Kroger does with UP.