http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/safest-place-in-otr-a-bus-stop/

 

cool article! I didn't realize that (I take the 17 downtown all the time, but to see actual zero's is pretty interesting)

oh and, I LOVE that the Sheriff touts it safety while the Enquirer bashes it.  Hmmm...

I'm unsure if the city even applied for anything.  Regardless, Cincinnati got nothing from the Feds on TIGER II. 

 

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2010/dot18810.html

 

 

I'm unsure if the city even applied for anything. Regardless, Cincinnati got nothing from the Feds on TIGER II.

 

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2010/dot18810.html

 

 

 

damn.  They were hoping for $35 million.  That's a rough blow.  :-/

^not really, we knew TIGER II was heavily oversubscribed

I'm unsure if the city even applied for anything. Regardless, Cincinnati got nothing from the Feds on TIGER II.

 

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2010/dot18810.html

 

 

 

That really stinks. Are New Starts and TRAC II the other possible grant sources at this point? Hopefully those applications will be successful.

^and there is always the re-authorization of the surface transportation bill and another potential state funding source 

I'm unsure if the city even applied for anything. Regardless, Cincinnati got nothing from the Feds on TIGER II.

 

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2010/dot18810.html

 

 

 

That really stinks. Are New Starts and TRAC II the other possible grant sources at this point? Hopefully those applications will be successful.

 

the Streetcar is in the running for TRAC II funding.  I don't know about New Starts.

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/city-awarded-federal-funding-for-streetcar-plan/

 

 

YAYAYAYAY!!!

Great news!

Another potential funding source:

 

"Since 2005, the Cincinnati Development Fund has received $82 million in federal tax credits, which have been used on a variety of projects including a current renovation of the former Vernon Manor Hotel in Avondale and the planned renovation of Washington Park in Over-the-Rhine.

 

The agency has applied this year for an additional $75 million in tax credits, of which up to $20 million could go to support Cincinnati's streetcar plan, if awarded, said Jeanne Golliher, president and CEO of non-profit agency."

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20101021/BIZ01/10220336/Development-Fund-wins-2M-in-Ohio-tax-credits

Another potential funding source:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20101021/BIZ01/10220336/Development-Fund-wins-2M-in-Ohio-tax-credits

 

OMG, I just read the comments and "COAST" has posted opposition.  So, COAST is apparently now opposed to TAX CREDITS -- what an unbelievable lack of integrity.

They're opposed to government, period. It's time to start calling a spade a spade and refer to COAST as an anarchist group.

Or better yet, move them to Somalia where their dreams can come true.

Or better yet, move them to Somalia where their dreams can come true.

Seriously, what is with you and wanting to send people to Somalia!? :D

 

########

 

 

When/where is the groundbreaking?

I would guess in front of Music Hall.

Or better yet, move them to Somalia where their dreams can come true.

Seriously, what is with you and wanting to send people to Somalia!? :D

 

Somalia needs the income!

^And the activism!  Let them get signatures to petition the pirate tax!!

Don't get me wrong, these guys (in the link provided) don't differ much from the cincinnati.com posters, but did I read a different feasibility study?  My interpretation of the feasibility study had pretty good results.

 

http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=458589&pid=5827206#pid5827206

 

  Can anyone tell me what the position of the Hamilton County Commissioners is on the streetcar? Thanks.

 

 

 

  Can anyone tell me what the position of the Hamilton County Commissioners is on the streetcar? Thanks.

 

 

 

Jim Tarbell is a streetcar supporter so vote for him on Nov. 2!  Chris Monzel, who is running against him is very adamantly against it as his voting record on Council has shown.

 

 

Can anyone tell me what the position of the Hamilton County Commissioners is on the streetcar? Thanks.

Pretty sure Portune is supportive.

I don't think it really matters, the county has nothing to do with the project.

^It may not matter for the Streetcar project specifically, but I'd prefer to see rail supporters over rail opponents anyway.  If a light rail opportunity pops up in the near future, I want to make sure that we're ready.

 

  "I don't think it really matters, the county has nothing to do with the project."

 

  On the contrary, the Hamilton County Commissioners are responsible for funding the Metropolitan Sewer District, which controls the sewers in the area.

 

    What does that have to do with anything? Well, an engineer at MSD told me that there is going to be a showdown between the City of Cincinnati and MSD over the streetcar. The current plan has the streetcar line directly over a 48" combined sewer in Elm Street. MSD does not want the catenary within 10 feet horizontally from any sewer manhole, because MSD does not feel that it is safe to use any specialized equipment such as vactor trucks that have overhead booms to maintain the sewer.

 

    Well, MSD figures it will cost $15 million to solve the problem, which is more than the entire utility relocation budget for the streetcar.

 

    I don't see Hamilton County coming up with the money unless a majority of the County Commissioners are in favor of the streetcar.

 

    Plus, The Banks is a county project, so yes, the county has a lot to do with the streetcar.

 

  Incidently, this is another good reason to favor the Vine & Walnut route.

 

   

 

   

Can anyone tell me what the position of the Hamilton County Commissioners is on the streetcar? Thanks.

Pretty sure Portune is supportive.

 

Todd Portune has never been a supporter of streetcars or electric light rail. He's been an out-and-out opponent of the latter.

^ So far as I know, all utilities exist in the ROW at the discretion of the City of Cincinnati. In other words, the City has the final say here.

 

   "I don't think it really matters, the county has nothing to do with the project."

 

   On the contrary, the Hamilton County Commissioners are responsible for funding the Metropolitan Sewer District, which controls the sewers in the area.

 

    What does that have to do with anything? Well, an engineer at MSD told me that there is going to be a showdown between the City of Cincinnati and MSD over the streetcar. The current plan has the streetcar line directly over a 48" combined sewer in Elm Street. MSD does not want the catenary within 10 feet horizontally from any sewer manhole, because MSD does not feel that it is safe to use any specialized equipment such as vactor trucks that have overhead booms to maintain the sewer.

 

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at.  MSD can't just refuse to grant consent for something that they have no right to.  MSD doesn't own the streets, or the air rights, or (most likely) the sewer that you mentioned.  They may have some sort of possessory right (though the City actually operates MSD, so they may in fact be subject to orders from the City) but until you point to some law that gives them some claim to air rights above and 10 feet horizontally in any direction from a combined sewer, and that their veto isn't subject to review by a duly elected legislative body, your claim can only be regarded as specious.

A very good story from MSNBC.... mainstream media discovers the streetcar revival...

 

The Return of the Streetcar

 

http://www.planetizen.com/node/46553

I coudln't believe they brought up the old coal power plant argument.  I think we determined that Cincinnati's streetcar will use about as much electricity as a 100,000 sq foot warehouse in West Chester, of which there are hundreds. 

I coudln't believe they brought up the old coal power plant argument. I think we determined that Cincinnati's streetcar will use about as much electricity as a 100,000 sq foot warehouse in West Chester, of which there are hundreds.

 

Yes...it's a pretty lame criticism.  Also doesn't take into account reduced emissions from motor vehicles.

I couldn't believe thye've brought up the old coal power plant argument. I think we determined that Cincinnati's streetcar will use about as much electricity as a 100,000 sq foot warehouse in West Chester, of which there are hundreds.

The city studied this. Assuming 1.2 persons per car, the greenhouse gas emissions from streetcar travel are about half what they'd be if streetcar passengers got around by car instead. This is a bogus argument.

 

And the real greenhouse gas reductions come from more dense settlements patterns -- living in multi-family buildings, walking to work and shopping. While the city didn't put an exact number on this, Portland did. They estimate greenhouse gases emitted from living in a dense, transit rich neighborhood are someting like quarter of what you'd get with the typical suburban model.

I couldn't believe they've brought up the old coal power plant argument. I think we determined that Cincinnati's streetcar will use about as much electricity as a 100,000 sq foot warehouse in West Chester, of which there are hundreds.

The city studied this. Assuming 1.2 persons per car, the greenhouse gas emissions from streetcar travel are about half what they'd be if streetcar passengers got around by car instead. This is a bogus argument.

 

And the real greenhouse gas reductions come from more dense settlements patterns -- living in multi-family buildings, walking to work and shopping. While the city didn't put an exact number on this, Portland did. They estimate greenhouse gases emitted from living in a dense, transit rich neighborhood are someting like quarter of what you'd get with the typical suburban model.

p. 52

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/cmgr/downloads/cmgr_pdf18280.pdf

  "MSD doesn't own the streets, or the air rights, or (most likely) the sewer that you mentioned."

 

  No one is claiming air rights over a street.

 

  As has been mentioned before, it is not good practice to have utility access points between the tracks. Obviously, a maintenance worker cannot have access at the same time that a streetcar is passing through. In a typical street, the area around the utility is closed for maintenance. In most cases it's just a minor inconvenience, but in the case of the streetcar, closing one lane of a street could effectively shut down the entire streetcar line until the work is done.

 

    Obviously, the solution is to relocate utility access points away from the streetcar tracks. If the utility crosses the tracks perpendicularly and there happens to be an access point within the footprint of the proposed tracks, it is not to hard to build a new access point over the utility a short distance away.

 

    If the utility is parallel, that is, directly under the footpring of the tracks, it is much more difficult. What do you do, relocate the whole utility line? This is where it can get expensive really quick.

 

  So, the streetcar itself will be something like 8 feet wide, 4 feet on either side of the centerline. So will the footprint of the track, counting all of the supporting concrete. That means that there will have to be a strip 8 feet wide with no utility access.

 

    But that doesn't count the safe distance from the overhead wires! Those wires are going to carry 16,000 volts or thereabouts. A worker who accidentally touches the wire with anything metal is likely to die of electrocution. Granted, the wires are going to be about 19 feet high, so touching the wire is not something that happens normally. But keep in mind that sewers are often 20 feet deep, and it takes a rod 20 feet deep to reach the bottom.

 

    Sewer workers are trained to look overhead before inserting any rod into the sewer; the tendency is to stand the rod straight up, and then lower it into the manhole. So, it is in fact very conceivable that a sewer worker can be electrocuted. Besides rods, MSD owns a fleet of trucks with specialized equipment for maintenace of sewers. Many of these trucks have booms that can reach 20 feet high.

 

    The solution is to keep access manholes a safe distance horizontally from the wire. What is that safe distance? According to the engineer I talked to, an expert from Portland pegged it as 10 feet horizontally from the wire. Thus, in terms of utilities, or at least sewers, there can be no manholes within a strip 20 feet wide, 10 feet on each side of the centerline.

 

    On Elm Street, the proposed streetcar line intersects a row of manholes on a 48" combined sewer.

 

    MSD doesn't care about air rights or anything like that. The only thing they care about is keeping their workers safe. How would you like this headline: "MSD worker electrocuted by streetcar wire."?

 

    Just like every other government agency, MSD has a budget. They don't have $15 million laying around for projects like this. From a sewer point of view, there are 100 other projects that are higher on the priority list than relocating manholes for the streetcar.

 

    So, if the City Manager asks the director of MSD to solve the problem, the director of MSD is going to say, "You provide the funding, and I will solve the problem." It all comes down to funding.

 

    Since funding for MSD has to be approved by Hamilton County, it would be interesting to know what the County Commissioners think about the streetcar.

 

    In any case, the utility relocation budget doesn't seem to have enough money to do the job.

 

   

    What is the alternative, leave the manholes where they are and occassionally shut down the entire streetcar line so that MSD workers can safely access the sewer?

 

    Did you think it was going to be easy? Laying streetcar tracks and hanging wire is very complicated, and is not something to be taken lightly.

 

   

 

   

 

   

All this discussion reminds me that suburban Cincinnati needs streetcars too.

^ Huh?  :?

^ Huh?   :?

 

I think there's this notion out there that goes something like this:

urban core = streetcar

suburbs = light rail

region wide = commuter rail

state wide = HSR

 

That's all well and good but in Cincinnati the streetcar network could be a heckuva lot bigger than a loop from UC to the river.

The streetcar wire will likely be electrified at 750 volts DC, not 16,000. That's fairly irrelevant, though, as you'd still be just as dead if you touch it.

 

But aren't there uninsulated overhead wires pretty much all over the city? If an MSD worker is careless enough to get electrocuted on an overhead wire, does it really matter if that wire is a streetcar catenary in OTR or a Duke Energy power line in Westwood? I'd find it hard to believe that every single manhole cover is at least 10 horizontal feet away from an overhead power line.... And I'd also find it hard to believe that no other city with light rail or streetcars (either heritage or modern) apparently doesn't have manhole covers near their own streetcar rights-of-way. Forgive my cynicism, but the whole thing sounds like yet another straw-man argument thrown out as an excuse to oppose the streetcar project when all the other arguments have failed.

 

The solution is to make sure utility workers are trained in proper safety procedures, not move a major sewer line that otherwise wouldn't need to be moved.

My thoughts exactly Living in Gin.  Also, Elm Street had two-way streetcar service in the past.  I'll concede that they didn't do such a good job of eliminating conflicts with underground utilities 100 years ago, but they still made it work.  How could the single track route being proposed today be any worse than the double track route that is still buried under the asphalt? 

^That's exactly what it is.  Not to mention that the original thrust of his point was the County does indeed have some influence/say/control over the Streetcar project, specifically through MSD, which they fund.  There's no there, there.  Certainly at least not in any way in which he framed his arguments.

 

  I think you got the urban and suburban areas mixed up, my friend. Urban areas should have light rail / subway / metro systems, and suburban areas should have streetcars.

 

 

The streetcar wire will likely be electrified at 750 volts DC, not 16,000. That's fairly irrelevant, though, as you'd still be just as dead if you touch it.

 

But aren't there uninsulated overhead wires pretty much all over the city? If an MSD worker is careless enough to get electrocuted on an overhead wire, does it really matter if that wire is a streetcar catenary in OTR or a Duke Energy power line in Westwood? I'd find it hard to believe that every single manhole cover is at least 10 horizontal feet away from an overhead power line.... And I'd also find it hard to believe that no other city with light rail or streetcars (either heritage or modern) apparently doesn't have manhole covers near their own streetcar rights-of-way. Forgive my cynicism, but the whole thing sounds like yet another straw-man argument thrown out as an excuse to oppose the streetcar project when all the other arguments have failed.

 

The solution is to make sure utility workers are trained in proper safety procedures, not move a major sewer line that otherwise wouldn't need to be moved.

I agree. I suppose I receive at least fifty emails a day, have for over a decade, from rail advocates around the country with good, bad and indifferent stories about light rail, heavy rail and streetcars. Many of these people are active in the industry and they circulate all kinds of news about safety and the like. I can tell you that during that entire period, I don't recall ever receiving notice of a electrocution of a lineman or an underground utility worker. It may have happened, but it doesn't register. I can tell you that there seem to be about twenty fatalities a year on light rail, half of them suicides, most of the others involving alcohol, often late at night. But worker safety has never been a problem as far as I can tell.

 

There has never been a fatality of any kind on any of the three modern streetcar systems now in operation.

 

I agree with Living in Gin that the system will be powered at 750 volts DC. Dead nevertheless.

 

  I don't know why you all think that I am opposed to the streetcar. I am open to it, but my point all along has been that it is a much more difficult project than it is made out to be.

 

  Historically, thousands of workers died in all kinds of job-related accidents, with mining and railroading being two of the most dangerous. In those days, labor was cheap, and it was acceptable to suffer losses of life, if not of profit. It's a different economy today. A poor safety record puts businesses in deep trouble.

 

    Also keep in mind that Cincinnati's historic streetcar system was built up over many years, starting with horsecars. Often, the tracks were there first. Today, the sewer is there first, and MSD is not prepared to deal with a streetcar wire. Are they being overly cautious? Well, the 10 foot horizontal rule came from the Portland expert, not from MSD.

 

    The problem is technically solveable, given enough funding. As is often the case, the hard part of the problem is the funding, and deciding which government agency is going to do the funding.

 

   

 

  Furthermore, there is a fear of the unknown in Cincinnati. Portland has a lot of experience with rail transit. Cincinnati does not (as least not in the last 50 years.) It is going to be more difficult to build a new streetcar in Cincinnati than it will to build the same streetcar in Portland just because of the lack of experience. No local contractor in Cincinnati has ever built a streetcar.

^ True, but Stacy and Witbeck has, and it has built every mile of Portland's streetcar and most of its light rail. It built Seattle's streetcar and has built hundreds, maybe thousands of miles of heavy rail and light rail all over the Western U.S.

 

Stacy and Witbeck will construct the Cincinnati Streetcar. It will open a Midwest Regional Office here.

 

Stacy has had staff here since early-2009. I had dinner with the California-based corporate executive who will oversee our project last week at Rail~Volution in Portland. You wouldn't believe how on top of Cincinnati's project he is, possessing an exquisite knowledge of Cincinnati's built environment, its construction trades and its politics. I'm not worried.

Eighth & State, yet again you act as if this streetcar project presents an enginnering challenge on par with the Great Pyramid, the first transcontinental railraod, the Hoover Dam, etc.  Nobody needs to take higher math classes and get an engineering degree to know that moving a water main is a fairly routine activity.  It's been done thousands of times around the world.  You've repeatedly gotten hung up on some technical detail of this project and not seen the big picture.

 

If the people working on this project from the MSD are bewildered by the scale of this sewer project, maybe they're in the wrong line of work.  Personally I'm the type of person who when presented with a big pile of work just gets started on it instead of pouting about it. 

 

Last month I took these photos of the Second Avenue subway project in New York.  There's more difficult engineering and staging going on here on every block than there is on Cincinnati's entire streetcar project:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  "You've repeatedly gotten hung up on some technical detail of this project and not seen the big picture."

 

  The big picture is that governments at all levels are facing stagnant or declining budgets. The proponents of the streetcar are overly optimistic with regard to costs and budgets.

 

  If some sponsor, whether is be the City of Cincinnati or anyone else, had come in with a project estimate of $120 million for the Over-the-Rhine loop, and a healthy budget of $200 million, I would be less concerned about it.

 

    When the project grows to include the uptown loop, the various grants are iffy, and the budget was tight to start with, then bad things can happen.

 

That's just the reality of finding funding through a recession and recovery where revenues are still down.  Because of that we need the streetcar now more than ever.  Doing this project creates jobs, creates growth, attracts entrepreneurs, investors and developers.  Detractors think supporters are pollyanna's about this but but they fail to realize that the supporters have seen this happen first hand in Europe, and along the west coast.  They know it can work.  And everyone in Cincy balks at it.  I'm tired of it!  Cincinnati is not some distant world where the laws of gravity or the policy and precautions of a sewer district are somehow going to enable the death of thousands of utility workers at the hands of a transit project.  If someone dies, it was because they weren't looking out for themselves, not because we built a wire you can touch with a 20ft pole. 

 

You can't protect against stupid.

^Especially when you consider some of the first train and subway tunnels in NY were constructed over a hundred years ago...under the Hudson...without the aid of computers or modern diesel machinery.

 

And many of those original lines were built by Parsons-Brinckerhoff, which is heavily involved in the streetcar project. In fact, PB got its start by building the first IRT subway line in New York. I'm sure they make mistakes like anybody else, but I'm willing to trust their professional judgement regarding the streetcar over some local armchair engineers (I'm thinking specifically of a certain writer for the Beacon) who suddenly fancy themselves as experts in transit engineering.