Yeah, no offense, but I don't think forcing people to wear a sticker is a very practical idea.  They just need to have transit workers who periodically walk through the car and check peoples passes for validity.  The passes should have the time and expiration date stamped on them anyway right?  WHen you pay for a fare at a streetcar stop is it possible to have the machine generate a receipt with that information on it?  Regardless, there will be people who are going to try cheating the system no matter what you do.

Per the Enquirer, the coalition of Finney/Miller/Smitherman have decided on November for their ill-conceived ballot measure. Had they instead tried for May, wouldn't today be the last day to turn in their signed petitions?

Yeah, no offense, but I don't think forcing people to wear a sticker is a very practical idea.  They just need to have transit workers who periodically walk through the car and check peoples passes for validity.  The passes should have the time and expiration date stamped on them anyway right?  WHen you pay for a fare at a streetcar stop is it possible to have the machine generate a receipt with that information on it?  Regardless, there will be people who are going to try cheating the system no matter what you do.

 

I also don't think that a sticker is the way to go.  The main problem with the streetcar is that, inexplicably (to folks on this board), something as basic as center city mass transit has gotten bogged down in US vs. THEM issues, just like everything else.  The streetcar needs to quietly do its job, and prove its worth, by being an efficient and convenient way to circulate people.  I know that it sounds silly, but stickers with little streetcar pictures on them are just going to be used by obstructionists to brand people who wear them.  We don't need to provide any more hooks for them to hang on to.

 

Let's just have a simple fare system that's easy to understand and gives a little piece of paper.  Pay people to wear uniforms and check for valid fares.  Yes, some people will lose it, or pretend to lose it, but there's a big advantage, in my opinion, to making this infrastructure blend as seamlessly as possible into the everyday workings of the city. 

Per the Enquirer, the coalition of Finney/Miller/Smitherman have decided on November for their ill-conceived ballot measure. Had they instead tried for May, wouldn't today be the last day to turn in their signed petitions?

My understanding is they had 60 days before the election to get in their petition signatures which would be March 4th I think.

Yeah, no offense, but I don't think forcing people to wear a sticker is a very practical idea.  They just need to have transit workers who periodically walk through the car and check peoples passes for validity.  The passes should have the time and expiration date stamped on them anyway right?  WHen you pay for a fare at a streetcar stop is it possible to have the machine generate a receipt with that information on it?  Regardless, there will be people who are going to try cheating the system no matter what you do.

 

In lots of places there are machines that stamp/validate a ticket with the time, separate from the point of purchase.

 

Going for something more modern does seem sensible to me, considering we are starting from scratch. However, modern in this case means experimental, and could become a problem.

There are several advantages to the sticker.  One is that a transit fare checker can immediately see who has paid and who hasn't.  A second is that everyone else riding can also see who has paid and new riders, unfamiliar with the system can see that's how it works.

 

One downside I thought of is that there is a litter issue with the sticker backings.

 

Again, nothing has been decided on, just an idea.

The way proof-of-payment works in places like Denmark and Germany is that you first buy a "blank" ticket either at the station or a store.  You then insert it in a machine inside the vehicle that stamps the ticket with the time and date.  I can't remember if it stamps the current time or the time it expires, but either way it tells you how long it's valid for.  In Copenhagen, which uses a zone-based fare system (at least for the trains), they have 10-ride cards with little tabs that are bitten off as well as timestamped.  If you have a 10-ride card that's good for two zone travel, but you need to go four zones, then you just punch your ticket twice.  It's a bit complicated, but very versatile. 

 

This has one advantage over prepaid cards like they use in Chicago.  Those are great in that they are universal across both the L and CTA buses, so they automatically deduct the proper reduced fare for the first transfer and free second transfer, but there's nothing to indicate when your two hour window is up.  You have to note the time when you first swipe your card and hope the clocks are all in sync if you're pushing to get your reduced or free transfer within that two hour period.  With a timestamped paper ticket, you always know for sure. 

 

While I doubt there would be a whole lot of need for streetcar/bus transfers, having at least a one hour window where you can get back on with the same ticket would be a good policy to encourage more use for quick errands.

It would be cool to have some sort of combination of an all-card or general payment kiosks with the stickers.  So you can buy a parking space (be it street or garage) or a transit ride (bus or streetcar) and it would print out the appropriate sticker.

 

You could also try and do something where you can use the kiosk for private lots as well.

^ Like this?

http://www.go-metro.com/news/2010/nr36.html

Exactly. When is this supposed to start? "Later this year"? Which year?

 

Also, was there publicity for this? It's the first I have heard of it and I have lived in Hamilton County my whole 40+ years!

That document came out last year-- I see the 1 most days.

There are several advantages to the sticker.  One is that a transit fare checker can immediately see who has paid and who hasn't.  A second is that everyone else riding can also see who has paid and new riders, unfamiliar with the system can see that's how it works.

One downside I thought of is that there is a litter issue with the sticker backings.

Again, nothing has been decided on, just an idea.

Sell advertising / coupon space on the sticker backing?

Make it redeemable or validatable with area businesses?

I'm thinking a good compromise would be you only have to have the stamped sticker on your person.  You don't have to actually wear it if you don't want to.  You can just hold it or put it in your pocket and take it out to show it to the ticket checker if asked.  But you also have the convenient option of just putting it on your shirt so you don't have to fumble around looking for your ticket in a crowded, moving streetcar.

^ Brad, that would be an automatic compromise most of the time.  Just put it in your pocket and when you see the ticket guy coming, stick it on.  And nobody is going to issue a ticket for non-payment to the guy holding an unstuck sticker in his hand or pocket.

 

I still think that stickers are kitschy, and belong more on a tourist "trolly" than on mass transit.  I'd prefer something more no-nonsense that is still convenient.  Is it such a big problem to go through the cars shouting "tickets please!"  It's not like having a small sticker is going to allow some sort of quick scan of the car anyway.  Instead of professionally asking for tickets, the guy is more likely to look like a perv asking people to turn around so he can stare at their chests.

 

 

^ Brad, that would be an automatic compromise most of the time.  Just put it in your pocket and when you see the ticket guy coming, stick it on.  And nobody is going to issue a ticket for non-payment to the guy holding an unstuck sticker in his hand or pocket.

 

I still think that stickers are kitschy, and belong more on a tourist "trolly" than on mass transit.  I'd prefer something more no-nonsense that is still convenient.  Is it such a big problem to go through the cars shouting "tickets please!"  It's not like having a small sticker is going to allow some sort of quick scan of the car anyway.  Instead of professionally asking for tickets, the guy is more likely to look like a perv asking people to turn around so he can stare at their chests.

 

Totally agree, and the part about "automatic compromise" is poignant. Many people will think the sticker system is stupid and not comply, and to ticket people doing that would be a PR nightmare. So you're right back at the problem of people potentially fumbling through their pockets until the next stop, where they can bolt. (Hey, they could do that with their ID too if you're trying to ticket them.) That's not a justification for the sticker system. As you also pointed out, neither is a "quick glance" around the car.

I think that receipts stamped by a printer upon payment works the best.  It covers validity, practicality, convenience and transfers  :wink:

When done properly, ticket checkers come out in force with at least three or four people.  On subways they get on at one stop and sweep a particular car, getting off at the next stop or switching to another car.  On buses and streetcars, they move in at a particular stop, place one person at each door to check people getting off, while another one or two people sweep through the inside for those who are staying on.  The vehicle doesn't leave until they've checked everyone.  This isn't doable at peak times, but with a large enough crew they can do it pretty quickly.  Anyone found inside who's in violation is dragged off to the sidewalk to get their citation and pay their fine so everyone else can keep going.  There's usually a police officer at hand to prevent people from running.

 

For a system as small as Cincinnati's streetcar, these couldn't be dedicated people.  They'd most likely be drivers finishing or starting their shift, ticket kiosk maintenance folk, or other staff people who are normally doing other things but are required to do fare checking say two times a day.  Subway and train inspectors are usually plain-clothed with wallet-type ID that they pull out once the doors are closed.  People who check buses and streetcars and hold the vehicle at a stop, or do a combination of inspecting those who disembark before getting on to check everyone else as the vehicle proceeds, can be in uniform. 

Here's the overall problem which begs a solution. The average trip on a streetcar is a mile, so most people aren't on it very long. Fare-checking has to be really fast while the streetcar is moving and crowded. It will to difficult to have and afford fare-checkers -- three of them because there are three doors that open simultaneously when the car stops -- checking everyone who enters the car. Doing so will slow the streetcar down too much. Hence the logic of a highly visible fare ID system that operates transparently while the streetcar is moving.

 

What I wouldn't want to see is an Enquirer reporter writing something like, "Despite the fact that the Cincinnati Streetcar supposedly charges $1.00 to ride, this reporter boarded eight different streetcars between Noon and 2:00 PM yesterday and was never once checked to see if he had bought a ticket."

 

So, while acknowedging that fare policy and enforcement needs to be user-friendly, the consequences of having uneven or absent fare-checking -- assuming we are going to have fares, and their are good arguments for and against having fares -- could lead to lots of problems that undermine our ability to have the system be highly regarded, prosper and expand.

 

In short, in order to establish that the streetcar is valued and paid for by the users, we may have to put up with some things that we'd rather not do. I really don't see much difference a visible I.D. system and having to display "Pay and Display" parking receipt on your car's window, wearing a wristband to attend a concert, or being stamped once your ID is checked as you enter a bar. Do they still do that?

 

I think the stickers could be a sort of marketing reminder along the lines of when the Board of Elections gives us those "I voted today" stickers. I see a lot of those around on election day.

 

It's a tough puzzle. Surface-running rail systems around the nation wrestle with this all the time, and in their heart-of-hearts, few will say they do a very good job at it.

^ John, is it that much of a problem with the Enquirer reporter?  First, we all know that if an Enquirer reporter wanted to write such a piece, s/he'd be able to do it no matter what fare system we had.  Second, any fare checking system is going to have to rely on the randomness of checks, just like the TSA does with their more detailed checks of bags and clothing.  Checkers should be visible, and they don't need to check every car.  The right number of checkers is determined by the point where the incremental revenue added fails to pay for their salary.

 

I mainly disagree that the stickers would make the checkers that much more efficient, and that people would be indifferent to using them (or even embrace them as a marketing reminder).  In terms of the analogies, a parking receipt on my car's window is, well, on my car's window, not my shirt.  I think that they do still stamp or band patrons to certain bars and events... and I recall always wanting to wash that off completely when I got home!  (That's why some bars use/used invisible ink that shows up only under UV light).  And the "vote today" sticker is only once or twice/year, and denotes an activity that is uniformly regarded as positive for society.  Unfortunately, the streetcar isn't in that league, yet, though I wish very much that I were wrong.

 

 

I like the sticker idea. One part of the sticker idea is that people will probably forget that they're wearing it after they hop off the streetcar. So it becomes free advertising. The most powerful form of advertising is word-of-mouth, and a sticker provides a conversation-starter. Even if you don't have an opportunity to engage in conversation with someone who got off a streetcar earlier that day, you will probably notice the sticker on passersby. And if you don't know what the sticker is for, you will be tempted to ask.

The counter-argument is that collecting parking revenue takes manpower and is similarly full of holes (the city's inability to collect millions in unpaid parking tickets was recently in the news).  Every garage needs attendants and parking meters need meter maids.  The free parking at shopping malls still requires mall security.  In short parking requires labor whether there is a charge or not.  Even the turnstiles in the NYC subway can't stop kids from jumping them, although the systems which have turnstiles at exit points as well (such as Washington, DC) are a lot tougher to beat. 

There isn't a way to do a turnstile door on the streetcar? How many entrances/exits does each car have, and how many cars is Cincy planning to run?

There isn't a way to do a turnstile door on the streetcar? How many entrances/exits does each car have, and how many cars is Cincy planning to run?

 

Even if you could do a turnstile door you wouldn't want to.

Since we now know they are trying for a November ballot vote, and gas might be hitting $4 by this summer, I'm feeling less worried that the anti-streetcar measure will pass every day.

Is it completely out of the question the question to make the system free, at least for the first year?  I know a lot of people won't understand how that could possibly be less expensive, but it would really boost ridership and give METRO a chance to asses the needs of a future fare collection system.

 

Whatever happens, can we NOT get the machines that Cleveland just installed...  Those things are absurd.

^ It's not out of the question to make the streetcar free. By my calculation, almost 50% of the miles on America's three modern streetcar systems are free. But the culture here may not allow for it. It's worth continuing discussion.

I've thought in the past that eventually, when there is more track uptown, that downtown and uptown could each be free and that fares would be charged only while traveling up or down the Vine St. hill. 

A proper discussion will require some numbers for the cost of collecting fares.  Ticket kiosks, timestamping machines, and employees to maintain and empty change from such machines cost money, as does the accounting.  Still, compared to the cost of a driver's salary, electricity, maintenance and such, I can't imagine it's THAT high.  Rapid transit systems probably have more opportunity to save since they have to maintain all of the aforementioned equipment on top of turnstiles, gates, and fences. 

 

Are there any studies out there that quantify these costs on a per-passenger basis?  Of course it must also be examined compared to the amount of subsidy as well.  While having no fare might still cost more than charging for a fare, it may be a paltry difference compared to the total subsidized cost of operation.  For instance, say it costs $5 million to operate, while collecting $1.5 million in fares (30% farebox recovery, thus $3.5 million in subsidy).  With no fares it may only cost $4.5 million to operate at 100% subsidy.

If you have dual use pay and display parking meters/streetcar ticket stations, it would probably end up being a net decrease in cost to the city. 

 

Switching from coins to pay and display where you can use a credit card will have to cut labor costs considerably as wheeling around a the collections carts for those meters and individually changing the canisters must take much much longer than two or three pay and display stations per block.  you could have the same employee refill the stickers for parking as the stickers for streetcars.  Additionally there would be plenty of places to buy streetcar passes and you could buy parking and a pass in a single transaction.

 

If the streetcar is free the likelyhood of crime and/or disturbances on the streetcar increases dramatically.  People don't walk up and down busses panhandling because it takes 1.75 to get on the bus in the first place.  If there's 100% no cost, you're more likely to get people just walking on to ask for money- find an air-conditioned place to sleep, etc. 

 

At the same time- with a trust system, you might be just as likely to have someone hop on, but technically you can easily kick them off when they can't prove they paid. 

If you have dual use pay and display parking meters/streetcar ticket stations, it would probably end up being a net decrease in cost to the city. 

 

Switching from coins to pay and display where you can use a credit card will have to cut labor costs considerably as wheeling around a the collections carts for those meters and individually changing the canisters must take much much longer than two or three pay and display stations per block.  you could have the same employee refill the stickers for parking as the stickers for streetcars.  Additionally there would be plenty of places to buy streetcar passes and you could buy parking and a pass in a single transaction.

 

This is a key point. There is tremendous opportunity for cross-selling between parking meters and the streetcar. I can imagine a whole lot of people may want to park cheaply in OTR and take the streetcar to the CBD for the last mile. Would be great for OTR businesses to have all that traffic. With electronic meter stations, the city could have sales to promote the streetcar at slow times. That is, park in OTR, get a free streetcar ticket. The possibiliites are endess here.

If you have dual use pay and display parking meters/streetcar ticket stations, it would probably end up being a net decrease in cost to the city. 

 

Switching from coins to pay and display where you can use a credit card will have to cut labor costs considerably as wheeling around a the collections carts for those meters and individually changing the canisters must take much much longer than two or three pay and display stations per block.  you could have the same employee refill the stickers for parking as the stickers for streetcars.  Additionally there would be plenty of places to buy streetcar passes and you could buy parking and a pass in a single transaction.

 

This is a key point. There is tremendous opportunity for cross-selling between parking meters and the streetcar. I can imagine a whole lot of people may want to park cheaply in OTR and take the streetcar to the CBD for the last mile. Would be great for OTR businesses to have all that traffic. With electronic meter stations, the city could have sales to promote the streetcar at slow times. That is, park in OTR, get a free streetcar ticket. The possibiliites are endess here.

 

Totally agree here. Integrating parking payment with streetcar payment opens lots of doors to increase the positive economic and behavioral impacts of the streetcar. Parking in certain lots (like ones on the periphery of downtown, or at the top of Vine) should include free or discounted streetcar tickets.

I think validation is superior to time stamps at the point of purchase. It makes tickets much more versatile. Imagine you want to park, get a ticket (maybe discounted with parking), do some shopping in OTR and then hop on the streetcar to go down to the river without worrying about time running out on the streetcar ticket. Or a business may want to give employees some tickets they can use at a variable time. Making the tickets usable only for so long after purchase is a big negative, IMO.

If you have dual use pay and display parking meters/streetcar ticket stations, it would probably end up being a net decrease in cost to the city. 

 

Switching from coins to pay and display where you can use a credit card will have to cut labor costs considerably as wheeling around a the collections carts for those meters and individually changing the canisters must take much much longer than two or three pay and display stations per block.  you could have the same employee refill the stickers for parking as the stickers for streetcars.  Additionally there would be plenty of places to buy streetcar passes and you could buy parking and a pass in a single transaction.

 

This is a key point. There is tremendous opportunity for cross-selling between parking meters and the streetcar. I can imagine a whole lot of people may want to park cheaply in OTR and take the streetcar to the CBD for the last mile. Would be great for OTR businesses to have all that traffic. With electronic meter stations, the city could have sales to promote the streetcar at slow times. That is, park in OTR, get a free streetcar ticket. The possibiliites are endess here.

 

Totally agree here. Integrating parking payment with streetcar payment opens lots of doors to increase the positive economic and behavioral impacts of the streetcar. Parking in certain lots (like ones on the periphery of downtown, or at the top of Vine) should include free or discounted streetcar tickets.

 

That could take things in a bad direction though.  If more remote parking lots become more usable to downtown workers because of discounts or free streetcar passes, then it could encourage those areas to remain as parking lots or even expand.  That's not something we want to have happen.  If such a system were to be implemented, it might make sense for it not to give free rides during the morning rush.  That would allow people doing daily errands or visits to institutions to get a free pass, but not office workers who are just going to clog up those remote parking lots all day long.  Whatever the ultimate situation, it will need to be carefully implemented to avoid adverse consequences.

^ I'm thinking this would only affect meters in OTR and elsewhere along the route, not lots.

I'm thinking garages more than meters and not surface lots at all. Specifically, the Banks garages and the garage under Washington Park. Should have used better language than "certain lots", but the "certain" part was meant to imply places which encourage positive economic and behavioral changes.

I think validation is superior to time stamps at the point of purchase. It makes tickets much more versatile. Imagine you want to park, get a ticket (maybe discounted with parking), do some shopping in OTR and then hop on the streetcar to go down to the river without worrying about time running out on the streetcar ticket. Or a business may want to give employees some tickets they can use at a variable time. Making the tickets usable only for so long after purchase is a big negative, IMO.

 

You could do it that way wihtout a problem.  When you buy your ticket, the machine might ask how long you want to buy a ticket for (1 hour, 2 hours, all day) and then stamp it on the car

Check the very bottom of this website out (the rest is not in English):

http://www.p1.nl/parkeren/p-r-amsterdam-olympisch-stadion/

 

It's for an underground parking garage on the periphery of Amsterdam. Parking is very cheap relative to other places and they give you (up to 5) free round-trip public transportation passes. (As an alternative to the transit passes, you can instead borrow up to two bikes for free.)

 

The point, obviously, is to discourage congestion in the city. It's specifically geared towards commuters.

 

  When I first saw Brad's photo with the stickers a few pages back, the first thing I thought of was stickers stuck to the floor of the streetcar, stickers stuck to the glass, stickers stuck to the seats, stickers stuck to streetsigns and buildings near the stops, stickers stuck on the sidewalk, and stickers stuck anywhere else one can think of.

 

  Even if folks don't stick them on things maliciously, there are going to be stickers all over by accident. They are not particularly easy to clean, and make a place look so tawdry. Personally, I like the idea of making it fareless, but I can see reasons against it. Pay at a farebox, issue paper tickets, issue electronic tickets, use the honor system, or whatever - but please, no stickers!

 

 

 

   

+1 bonus for using the word "tawdry."  :laugh:

 

  When I first saw Brad's photo with the stickers a few pages back, the first thing I thought of was stickers stuck to the floor of the streetcar, stickers stuck to the glass, stickers stuck to the seats, stickers stuck to streetsigns and buildings near the stops, stickers stuck on the sidewalk, and stickers stuck anywhere else one can think of.

 

  Even if folks don't stick them on things maliciously, there are going to be stickers all over by accident. They are not particularly easy to clean, and make a place look so tawdry. Personally, I like the idea of making it fareless, but I can see reasons against it. Pay at a farebox, issue paper tickets, issue electronic tickets, use the honor system, or whatever - but please, no stickers!

   

 

The Milwaukee Art Museum has stickers for admission.  This is what all of the crosswalks leaving the museum look like:

 

^Oh dear.

 

Whatever happens, can we NOT get the machines that Cleveland just installed...  Those things are absurd.

 

Yep, they suck. It's why I buy a day pass on a bus and then I don't have to work about using any fare machine anywhere on the system.

 

Re: stickers.... Wow, I guess I am just not devious enough to think that people wouldn't properly throw them away in a garbage can when they are done with them.

 

Whatever happens, can we NOT get the machines that Cleveland just installed...  Those things are absurd.

 

Yep, they suck. It's why I buy a day pass on a bus and then I don't have to work about using any fare machine anywhere on the system.

 

For those who haven't had the experience, here's a nice little blog post on those beasts.

 

http://www.awdsgn.com/dailyjournal/oct09/html/dailypg_101109.htm

And that is an art museum, where you expect the patrons to have a certain sense of decorum.

 

  When I first saw Brad's photo with the stickers a few pages back, the first thing I thought of was stickers stuck to the floor of the streetcar, stickers stuck to the glass, stickers stuck to the seats, stickers stuck to streetsigns and buildings near the stops, stickers stuck on the sidewalk, and stickers stuck anywhere else one can think of.

 

  Even if folks don't stick them on things maliciously, there are going to be stickers all over by accident. They are not particularly easy to clean, and make a place look so tawdry. Personally, I like the idea of making it fareless, but I can see reasons against it. Pay at a farebox, issue paper tickets, issue electronic tickets, use the honor system, or whatever - but please, no stickers!

   

 

The Milwaukee Art Museum has stickers for admission.  This is what all of the crosswalks leaving the museum look like:

 

 

The CAC does stickers as well with no such problems.

I disagree with the sticker idea.  I think it's probably a little tacky and the majority of people I feel would not get excited about it. 

 

For one, it's probably slightly more expensive than a printed receipt with an expiration time.  Also, once in a city, I've always known about the streetcar without having seen someone with a sticker.  I'm not sure that it really needs to be advertised by riders?  I appreciate the brainstorming though.

 

Whenever I've used transit in other cities I've normally used unlimited passes (day/week/month) or bought a book of a certain number of trips.  For that reason, I don't have a ton of experience with single trip tickets.  With Cincinnati not connecting to a great network that a ton of people are going to use, needing to collect fare for specifically the streetcar becomes a bit more important but tricky none-the-less. 

 

Has Portland's fare-less square always been that way or did they try to charge at first?

The LV Monorail has the printed receipt/expiration time system... and it seems to work really well... I think the Deuce out there is the same way.... that definitely gets my vote...

I'd rather have rfid tags. They could do spot checks, flick on a sensor and see a grid of who does and doesn't have their ticket.

Let's not underestimate the importance of the free fare was in the success of other similar transit systems.

 

Also, I hope they take credit cards.

There's basically no way to check fares downtown when these things are crowded.  It will be "free".  I don't think that this will encourage homeless people to hang out on the streetcar.  I didn't see anyone panhandling in the free fare zone in Portland.