The point is that transit riders are more readers.  You can't sell ad space if there's nobody reading the paper.  I doubt the streetcar would see a whole lot of people taking much time to get comfy and read the paper, but longer distance light rail, commuter rail, intercity rail, etc., are natural markets for newspapers. 

^ you're assuming they think.

 

However, in Gannett's recent quarterly statement they posted revenue declines in every category except online ad revenue. They are putting all their eggs in the Internet basket.

I'm guessing they don't feel like the ad revenue on smartphones and ipads comes close to that of suburban residents logging in online

Btw- there is actually an Internet basket and it is full of Gannet eggs.

Just start building something.  Don't care if its a shorter route or not, the project cannot afford to be idle much longer for a variety of reasons (Opposition, probable escalating costs, etc)

Just start building something.

+1

Just start building something.

 

It takes money. If the city takes the strategy of using federal dollars, then it also takes a few years worth of environmental studies and so on.

 

So, a streetcar vehicle costs a few million dollars. The city has already spent that much in studies and engineering. Why not purchase a streetcar, place it on the existing Oasis line near the boathouse, tow a diesel generator to supply power, and make a demonstration project out of it? Extend the tracks to the football stadium, and shuttle people around on game days. Get some good exposure, and some postcard views. Build interest. If it's successful, build track on a more useful route, and move the streetcar there in the future. If not, then the city is only out a few million dollars instead of $120 million.

 

I know the techicalities are more complicated than that, but a project of this scale is very affordable. It need not be a permanant installation; maybe the streetcar manufacturer could loan a vehicle for a short time. If funding for the expenses could be found, I bet that streetcar supporters could volunteer to provide much of the labor, and there seems to be enough talent on this board to perform at least some of the work. 

 

Just a thought.

Yeah, its incredibly frustrating and almost embarrassing that the city hasn't started building anything yet when we've supposedly had all this money in line.  I guess that's the draw back to using public dollars for anything.  Too many hoops to jump through and it just gives the opposition more time to act.

...Why not purchase a streetcar, place it on the existing Oasis line near the boathouse, tow a diesel generator to supply power, and make a demonstration project out of it? Extend the tracks to the football stadium, and shuttle people around on game days. Get some good exposure, and some postcard views. Build interest. If it's successful, build track on a more useful route, and move the streetcar there in the future. If not, then the city is only out a few million dollars instead of $120 million.

 

I know the techicalities are more complicated than that, but a project of this scale is very affordable.

 

With respect- I couldn't disagree more--  Expanding the end of the Oasis line closer to the stadiums would cost roughly $20 million following the streetcars own cost per mile projection - Streetcars are all about stops every roughly 800-1000 feet.  The Oasis line doesn't have any development along it.  Stops would be at minimum a mile apart- and through very sparsely populated areas-    It doesn't have stations or stops- there's a few more million-  We'll put a minimum of $50 million in to it and a year or two of construction (it takes about 18 months to get a streetcar... they don't just sit on lots waiting) and no one will ride it since no one lives along the line and there is low development potential along the proposed oasis line.  Since no one will ride it it will be derided as a failure and a boondoggle.

 

Really don't think that's feasible.

From the first page of this thread. This would be awesome. We have come such a long way since 2006.

 

^

I developed that plan for an architecture/urban design studio.  It's more of a light rail concept, and the circles are the stops.  The blue Ludlow/MLK/Madison line is very simple and makes a nice crosstown route.  I was never happy with the red north-south route though, both the routing up the hill and the zig-zagging to serve the zoo and Xavier.  Still, it's an interesting concept.  I do still believe Vine should be made two-way all the way to the suspension bridge. 

 

http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/portfolio/cats.html

 

The more important part of that project was the access to the CAGIS data that let me make that map, and ultimately to document the original streetcar system and later the interurbans and railroads.  The Tiger II uptown connector study even referenced it when analyzing the possible routes up the hill. 

 

Full size can be found at:  http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/map.html

 

...Why not purchase a streetcar, place it on the existing Oasis line near the boathouse, tow a diesel generator to supply power, and make a demonstration project out of it? Extend the tracks to the football stadium, and shuttle people around on game days. Get some good exposure, and some postcard views. Build interest. If it's successful, build track on a more useful route, and move the streetcar there in the future. If not, then the city is only out a few million dollars instead of $120 million.

 

I know the techicalities are more complicated than that, but a project of this scale is very affordable.

 

With respect- I couldn't disagree more--  Expanding the end of the Oasis line closer to the stadiums would cost roughly $20 million following the streetcars own cost per mile projection - Streetcars are all about stops every roughly 800-1000 feet.  The Oasis line doesn't have any development along it.  Stops would be at minimum a mile apart- and through very sparsely populated areas-    It doesn't have stations or stops- there's a few more million-  We'll put a minimum of $50 million in to it and a year or two of construction (it takes about 18 months to get a streetcar... they don't just sit on lots waiting) and no one will ride it since no one lives along the line and there is low development potential along the proposed oasis line.  Since no one will ride it it will be derided as a failure and a boondoggle.

 

Really don't think that's feasible.

 

Also, rail systems only drive development because of their implied permanence.  If you put a temporary streetcar in by the Boathouse, this will not spark development there because it will be known that it is only temporary (in addition to everything OCtoCincy said).  I realize that Eigth and State wasn't arguing that it would, but the fact remains that streetcar detractors would quickly point at the lack of new development, conveniently ignoring the differences between the temporary system and the real system.

 

I do appreciate Eigth and State's thinking outside the box, but the city did already bring in a streetcar from Portland for the public to see last year.  Everyone knows what they look like at this point.  I don't see what a temporary system would accomplish beyond what the city has already done.  We need to just get the money together and start building Phase1 already.  The downtown/OTR loop on its own connects enough dots to be useful and is small enough to serve as a prototype for a completed network.  If we're right and the finished streetcar turns out to be successful, fanastic.  Then we can start expanding and looking into light rail.  If opponents are right and the finished streetcar fails to attract ridership and spark development, then at least we'll know.  The kind of money we're talking about for the first loop isn't astronomical by public works project standards.  It's time to start building.

Within a year, there will be a new performance arts venue along the streetcar route. The Emery Theatre will be experiencing an awakening via the Emery Project, with a major even this fall.

That transit map a few posts upthread...so the that old tavern with the corner turret at Crawford and Spring Grove was the end of the line for the old C&LE interurban....and it went up into that hill country area behind Parker Woods, along Spring Grove cemetary?

 

The Emery Theatre will be experiencing an awakening via the Emery Project, with a major even this fall.

 

...tell me more.  The Emery is legendary with local cultural vultures for having good acoustics (heard about from people up here in Dayton).  Not this thread, probably, but if you can link me to a thread on this, or a site. 

 

Thx.

"The downtown/OTR loop on its own connects enough dots to be useful and is small enough to serve as a prototype for a completed network.  If we're right and the finished streetcar turns out to be successful, fanastic.  Then we can start expanding and looking into light rail.  If opponents are right and the finished streetcar fails to attract ridership and spark development, then at least we'll know.  The kind of money we're talking about for the first loop isn't astronomical by public works project standards.  It's time to start building."

 

Couldn't agree more with Jimmy_James last post above. I think even many streetcar supporters underestimate the huge impact a downtown loop will have on our city(Roxanne Qualls is one of them).  A downtown/OTR circulator will do wonders for our core, I'm convinced.  They just need to get it done!  We have plenty of money available for a complete system right now.  There's no reason to delay this any longer.

 

BTW, has anyone heard anything regarding what the city is currently doing now that we know the state funds are gone?  Are they actually getting a plan together anytime soon?  I know they have other important things to be doing right now, but if they don't get this thing started with rails in the ground by November we may be in big trouble (with the new ballot measure expected).

That transit map a few posts upthread...so the that old tavern with the corner turret at Crawford and Spring Grove was the end of the line for the old C&LE interurban....and it went up into that hill country area behind Parker Woods, along Spring Grove cemetary?

 

That's correct.  The turreted building was used as the station at some point, but it wasn't built for it.  I want to say the actual station burned down at some point and then they just leased space in that building, but I don't recall exactly. 

The Emery Theatre will be experiencing an awakening via the Emery Project, with a major even this fall.

 

...tell me more.  The Emery is legendary with local cultural vultures for having good acoustics (heard about from people up here in Dayton).  Not this thread, probably, but if you can link me to a thread on this, or a site. 

 

Thx.

 

Here you go:

http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/0118emerytheatrerevival.aspx

Not that it makes a huge difference, but glad to see that the latest Enquirer Streetcar poll came out something like 67-33 in favor of the streetcar, with thousands of votes. 

That transit map a few posts upthread...so the that old tavern with the corner turret at Crawford and Spring Grove was the end of the line for the old C&LE interurban....and it went up into that hill country area behind Parker Woods, along Spring Grove cemetary?

cemetery

yes - it intersected with a Spring Grove streetcar.

you can kind of see where there was a station in College Hill just north of the presbyterian church on Hamilton.

it's The Old Timber Inn which is still open altho I don't know about the kitchen.

 

With respect- I couldn't disagree more--  Expanding the end of the Oasis line closer to the stadiums would cost roughly $20 million following the streetcars own cost per mile projection...

 

New open track on existing graded right-of-way costs about $1 million per mile, and track exists now all the way to the Coliseum.  There is a graded right of way all the way to the football stadium - planners had the foresight to preserve it for a future route. Granted, the little plaza by the paddlewheel is in the way. Anyway, if the track couldn't be extended, just end it at the Coliseum. The idea was supposed to be a PROMOTION, not viable transportation. I bet that the there would be enough tourists to fill it up at least for a week or so.

 

The streetcar study quotes $20 million per mile or thereabouts for track. The reason it is so high is because of the difficulty of constructing rail in the street - especially one as congested with utilities as in downtown Cincinnati or Over-the-Rhine. Also, a good amount of the cost is in urban design elements - new curbs, etc. I'm not sure if the $20 million counts overhead wires or not, but those are obviously expensive.

 

Eight and State. I certainly understood where you were coming from with the promotion idea. However, it's not a viable one nor do I feel in any way would it have positive results. For one thing, it would cost way too much money just for a promotion of that scope nor is it similar enough to base off of as a "test project."

 

You say it was a promotion and not viable transportation, that's just the problem - the project we support is viable transportation, not exclusively some tourist carrier. You bring in cost, but it would cost itself quite a bit just to pull this "promotion" off. While it is technically graded, the rails would probably need substantial upgrades in some places, not to mention you'd have to rip out the asphalt/bricks through the park and put in new pavement around the rails just for a "promotion." Then you have the factor of, this doesn't go anywhere. You could add track all the way to PBS, but then you're spending money on just a temporary "promotion." Not to mention, there's more physical obstacles in the way than just that paddlewheel sculpture.

 

I can see where you're coming from though, every time I jog or bike through Sawyer Point/Friendship Park I always think how nice it would be to have a modern streetcar running those rails through that beautiful park, but the route just doesn't make sense. Even if you ended it at the coliseum, the US Dump Arena hardly ever has any big events that I think would warrant people parking far enough away just to ride this "promotion" which wouldn't even reflect the intended results of the real project.

 

So, I'm proposing a new idea:

 

Let's look to cities that have similar systems and see how they work out. I think Portland and Seattle have something similar, we could take a look at those, they seem pretty successful. Then lets compare demographics, I hear Portland is quite similar to Cincinnati in size and scope. If other world examples look good, lets move on with a test project like you proposed. How about we construct a loop around downtown? Maybe we'll go from The Banks, up through the CBD, to the tip of OTR and then back. If that works out, we'll continue to build off of it.

 

Has anyone proposed an idea like that? Oh, wait...

 

No disrespect, I enjoy reading your posts because you reflect a different viewpoint and when you stand opposed to something, you can do it in a professional way whereas COAST will call you names like we're arguing over what to trade for lunch in the 5th grade.

 

However, throughout this topic you've consistently brought up ideas on how to put this off and be really cautious about it and taking time etc. etc. etc. That attitude is what this city has had for years. We get a good idea, we look for a way to distract from it, because hey - this is Cincinnati, then the opportunity passes or we never get around to doing it.

 

It's time for this city to do something bold. It's time for this city to do something worth attracting young people to come and work here. I work two jobs. One downtown, one in Mason. Everyone I work with in Mason has the same "lets try a rubber tire trolley attitude," it's engrained into generation after generation. It's time we thought differently or else projects like the Streetcar end up like the subway and Cincinnati continues to be "20 years behind the times" as Mark Twain allegedly said.

^ couldn't agree more.

Carolyn Washburn, Enquirer Editor, online taking questions now

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/enquirermedia/2011/04/27/chat-with-enquirer-editor-carolyn-washburn/

It would be nice though to come up with a different city than Portland to compare to.  Yes I know it's a similar size, has some of the same geography issues, blah blah blah, but it's too often the go-to city.  Proponents are constantly talking about Portland, and even the naysayers are tired of hearing about it.  Part of the problem is that it's viewed as a left coast hippie city that Cincinnati certainly is not, so even if the physical similarities are striking, many people will write it off because of the political views of the entire Pacific northwest. 

Petitions seek four ballot measures

10:46 am, Apr 28, 2011 | Written by bhorstman 

 

Petitions with thousands of signatures seeking ballot measures that would prohibit construction of the Cincinnati streetcar, block a garbage collection fee, prevent a Cincinnati police-Hamilton County Sheriff’s office merger without voters’ approval and allow the city’s mayor to be recalled will be in the hands of county elections officials later today.

 

Representatives of the NAACP and other groups plan today to drop off petitions with about 2,500 signatures each on the streetcar and police consolidation issues at the Hamilton County Board of Elections.

 

The groups already have turned in petitions with 2,537 and 2,137 signatures, respectively, toward qualifying ballot measures that would ban a $20.50 monthly garbage collection fee considered last year during City Hall’s budget deliberations and that would allow Cincinnatians to recall any mayor mid-term.

 

cont

^ Wow-- Those are almost entirely BAD GOVERNMENT ballot measures-    If Smitherman had half a brain he'd know that if the city and county wanted to merge police and sheriffs departments, the city charter ALREADY requires a vote.  The city charter says the city must have an established police department.  If we are going to get rid of it- the charter must be amended- the charter can only be amended via a vote of the people.  It's embarrassing for the local NAACP that he is in charge. 

 

Recalling the mayor!?  Where does that even come from-- Smitherman... just because you want to be the mayor doesn't mean everyone wants to recall our current mayor and give you his job.  Although- if we were to have a recall ability- I'd prefer it came from council- Something like- a Super Super majority-  7 out of 9 votes to recall the mayor.  How many cities even allow mayoral recalls??  Most states don't even allow gubernatorial recalls. 

 

Obviously the streetcar one is just bad politics-- It's a stupid measure-- Chris Finney admitted that 10 years was an arbitrary number that they just happened to choose.

 

And While I do think Dohoney's proposed $20 a month garbage fee is far too high-- the vast majority of major US cities have trash fees and many in our state do.  It's not unreasonable to have to pay $5-10 a month for garbage pick up.

And even if you think we shouldn't pay for it-- Ballot measures like this are NOT the right way to do it.  Talking to your council-members is!

John Schneider will be on Cunningham's show at 2:07 today.

 

 

So apparently there was a new, shortened streetcar route announced and no one here has posted about it. Y'all is slippin'.

So apparently there was a new, shortened streetcar route announced and no one here has posted about it. Y'all is slippin'.

 

I think it has something to do with the forum issues.

Newest streetcar idea: Battery-powered trains?

 

"City Manager Milton Dohoney and Mayor Mark Mallory are taking idea seriously enough to have traveled to Dallas recently to see a "wireless streetcar" in person.

 

"We’re not at a point where we are ready to say a battery-powered car is what we ought to go with but the reason that it at least peaked our interest to investigate it (is) if you go with a battery powered car you do not need as much of a catenary network," said Dohoney, referring to the wires carrying electricity to trains. "That would save us money in terms of both capital and operating."

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2011/05/newest-streetcar-idea-battery-powered.html

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110503/NEWS0108/305030062/Mallory-Streetcar-route-to-get-shorter?source=nletter-nletter-breakingnews

 

Government Square to Findlay Market only.

Here is the battery powered model that they saw in Dallas. At 2:45 the most massive LRT I have ever seen passes in the background:

 

Whoa, there were like 2-3 pages of discussion about the new shortened streetcar route that came out the day the announcment was  made and they are all gone..

When we reverted the forum, the new posts in the VBulletin Forum were lost.

Too bad about the lost posts.  The Dallas 'car does not look too bad - is that the one that runs through the center of downtown or is this a new line?  I wonder what the run time is for these and how long charging is needed.  If there is a substantial savings, which seems likely, I think this has to be seriously considered. 

That is the first video I have seen of the battery powered tram. It looks like it operates really nicely.

 

I wonder what the hold up in implementing that in American cities is. Charging technology or something I imagine. If it's like the ones in Europe, I believe they use embedded charging "spots" in the ground to charge the batteries.

In a post I made on the old-new forum, I had some questions about the streetcar. Unfamiliar with how the battery-powered streetcar operates, what are its operating costs in comparison to the ones involving overhead wires? Start-up costs? How does the battery powered streetcar get "charged"? In the last question, would regenerative braking on hills be an asset?

My concern about the battery powered streetcar option is not the technology itself.  The problem is that considering it would add yet another delay to a project that has been delayed way too many times already.

This article sheds some light on the battery-power issue:

 

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/5774/fully-wireless-streetcars-feasible-soon-but-not-today/

This concern over the wires is silly.  You don't even notice them in Portland or Seattle.  In fact, when I went there, I had to position myself to take photos that showed the wires.  Also, if Cincinnati builds light rail, it will need wires anyway, since the battery power necessary to move light rail trains will be much greater. 

I can understand wanting to go with batteries if it would save money over the installation of overhead wires, even ignoring the aesthetic concerns.  Still, I'd be much more worried about the reliability issues involved, and anything that could draw criticism from the many naysayers out there.  Since the shortened route is mostly flat, it might not be so bad, but even with regenerative breaking for downhills, I doubt batteries could store enough power for the climb up those same hills when the route is ultimately lengthened. 

Judging by the article I linked, it seems unlikely current technology makes this viable, and even more questionable that it would be cheaper. That doesn't mean the possibility of future implementation shouldn't be considered in the plans.

I can understand wanting to go with batteries if it would save money over the installation of overhead wires, even ignoring the aesthetic concerns.  Still, I'd be much more worried about the reliability issues involved, and anything that could draw criticism from the many naysayers out there.  Since the shortened route is mostly flat, it might not be so bad, but even with regenerative breaking for downhills, I doubt batteries could store enough power for the climb up those same hills when the route is ultimately lengthened. 

 

Especially once you factor in the extra weight of the batteries.  I have no idea how much the batteries on a vehicle this large would be, but my guess is they aren't small.

Looks like Bortz doesn't like this new route either.  He's jumping ship and wants to shelve the project for awhile to get everything in order.

 

Gotta admit.  If, and I hate to say it but possibly when this thing doesn't get built, delays will be the cause - Not the opposition.  The opportunity was there

 

700wlw, Smitherman, Winburn, Ghiz, and Finney are leading a charge now to see if Mallory can legally build this without another council vote by getting a cease and desist motion (naturally they did not feel the same way after Kasich/TRAC did their suspicious/possibly illegal acts in April).

Good point about the weight.  These cars are already insanely heavy to start with.  The last thing we'd need is a bunch of rolling stock that's too heavy to get to uptown once the line is extended.

It amazes me that people don't understand the way our city government works... especially those on council. City council ALREADY gave the city administration the authority to use funding for the streetcar project. So the city manager is continuing to move forward. Unless the previous council motion authorizing the spending contained a stipulation on the exact routing, the City Manager can continue with the modified plan.

>I have no idea how much the batteries on a vehicle this large would be, but my guess is they aren't small.

 

We had battery powered fork lifts at a warehouse where I worked 15 years ago.  The batteries were huge both in size and in weight, and I seem to remember we had to top them off with water periodically.  They were charged overnight and I don't remember them ever running out of power during the day.  I don't remember them having any advantages at all over the fork lifts powered by natural gas. 

 

From what I understand the city is permitted to issue bonds whenever it's time, unless there is some kind of time limit.  True, the face of council has changed due to the many appointments over the past year, but I don't doubt similar situations have arisen in the past before and been carried out with zero controversy.

 

I was looking at the data on the website for the car earlier today.

 

http://www.ameritram.com/

 

It appears that they can run on overhead wires as well. So it may be a moot point from a technical standpoint.

I think in one of the photos provided, of a battery powered streetcar, there are overhead electrical lines (presumably because the streetcar stop is also a light rail stop on a shared line?). If it can operate in a dual-mode, that is a bonus and resolves any issue with the climb on Vine Street, or any future expansion.