May 6, 201114 yr It amazes me that people don't understand the way our city government works... especially those on council. City council ALREADY gave the city administration the authority to use funding for the streetcar project. So the city manager is continuing to move forward. Unless the previous council motion authorizing the spending contained a stipulation on the exact routing, the City Manager can continue with the modified plan. Yep. Until there is new legislation passed, the administration can act under whatever the current ordinance authorizes them to do. If there is no change in the law governing administrative functions and authorizations, then there will be no change in the administration's course of action. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 6, 201114 yr It is an advantage for a forklift to be heavy, so adding heavy batteries is not a disadvantage. While it is technically possible to run a streetcar with batteries, and there are example of it, it is telling that battery powered vehicles of any kind are very rare, even in automobiles, despite all the work done to promote them and environmental benefits. That said, anything that can be done to postpone the large capital cost of the streetcar would be an advantage. The streetcar could be run on batteries for ten years, say, and then switched to overhead electric. I would even consider a diesel vehicle. If there isn't one available, the streetcar could tow a diesel generator. Another idea to play around with is battery power on the level portions, regenerative braking on the downhill portions, and cable-driven power on the uphill portions, roller-coaster style. That way, a fixed power station at the top of Vine Street hill could provide the power for the most power-intensive part, the climb up the hill, saving weight required for big electric motors. Since the Vine Street hill would likely be a later phase, this works out nicely for sequencing. It would be complicated, though, and require a custom vehicle. But if you think about it, this is how the historic Cincinnati system got started, with horse-drawn vehicles on the level parts and cable cars or inclines on the hills. Less complicated but still requiring heavy motors would be overhead power on the uphill portion only, and battery power elsewhere. Funny that we are talking about battery power now, though, after so many studies have already been completed.
May 7, 201114 yr I don't think anyone that's working on the streetcar project or any of the elected officials have a problem with the wires. They're so small these days, it's just a non-issue. But I do think they believe that the hybrid cars could save a good deal of money in terms of OCS cost and distribution, and that's the reason they are considering the Kinkisharyo vehicle.
May 7, 201114 yr I feel the shortened line has a high risk of failure. I do see how it could help revitalize OTR. However, the omission of a segment to the Banks and GABP seriously maims the utility of the line to outside visitors, thus decreasing possible ridership. Is it possible that in the near future or even during construction the city might obtain funding (whether public or private) to at least extend the line to the Banks?
May 7, 201114 yr ^Is The Banks/GABP definitely cut out? Maybe, I missed that in the press release, but I thought we were still going with the downtown loop?
May 7, 201114 yr The discussion that was erased when the forum software reverted implied that the funding will likely be found to get the line to the riverfront by the time construction is under way.
May 7, 201114 yr The discussion that was erased when the forum software reverted implied that the funding will likely be found to get the line to the riverfront by the time construction is under way. ^ hopefully-- I don't think it is any more than a 50/50 chance- but that's definitely the plan- $9 million to complete it is nothing if split by the Banks developers, 5/3 and P&G as private investment.
May 9, 201114 yr ^ Of course you would. P&G just posted a $2.7 billion profit about two weeks ago. Many public infrastructure projects receive corporate backing- BofA provided major funding for LYNX, Duke has pitched in $6 million for the streetcar, and these corporations, many of which give millions to name pavilions in parks, etc. should definitely be approached by the city to join as corporate partners.
May 9, 201114 yr But they have to want to do it; not be told that it's wrong, greedy or irresponsible for them not to.
May 10, 201114 yr In my humble opinion, the project has a better chance of success if the business owners approached the city with an idea for a project, not the other way around. 5/3rd sponsored the fountain square project - one that I am very happy with, by the way - and paid the majority of the cost. Of course, 5/3rd had a financial incentive to do so, because it increased the value of their property and made their presence even more visible than it was before.
May 10, 201114 yr But they have to want to do it; not be told that it's wrong, greedy or irresponsible for them not to. In my humble opinion, the project has a better chance of success if the business owners approached the city with an idea for a project, not the other way around. No one in their right mind would go to P&G or anyone else and guilt them. This isn't a foreign concept-- when the park board is building something they go to P&G and say- hey guys, we're building this awesome new pavilion down by the river and we think this would be a great opportunity for naming rights, etc. P&G doesn't say- hey park board, build a pavilion and we'll pay for it. The city should approach these corporations, give them a genuine pitch as to why it is in their interest to help this project, and hopefully they do. 5/3rd sponsored the fountain square project - one that I am very happy with, by the way - and paid the majority of the cost. Of course, 5/3rd had a financial incentive to do so, because it increased the value of their property and made their presence even more visible than it was before. Regarding 5/3 and Fountain Square- All private corporate funding for Fountain Square totaled just under $5 million of the $43 million funding. To say that 5/3 funded the "majority" of the project is a fallacy: Private Conventional 1st Mortgage $15,000,000 New Market Tax Credits $10,750,000 Cincinnati Equity Fund $4,000,000 Corporate/Philanthropic Contribution $4,905,621 Urban Redevelopment Loan $4,000,000 Public City of Cincinnati $4,000,000.
May 10, 201114 yr GOP council members want streetcar meeting Looking for a new opportunity to press their opposition to the Cincinnati streetcar, Republican City Council members have scheduled a special Wednesday night council meeting to grill city administrators about the project. Three council members - Charlie Winburn, Wayne Lippert and Amy Murray - requested the special 6 p.m. meeting in council chambers, and Winburn said late Monday he hoped that fellow Republican Leslie Ghiz also would sign the request. Under council rules, a request by two members is sufficient to call a special meeting. cont "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
May 10, 201114 yr Wow, how much more information do they need? This has been studied so much already along with presentations.
May 10, 201114 yr Enough information that it slows the project down until after the November election.... EDIT -- and just in case you missed it: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4500.msg557806.html#msg557806 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 10, 201114 yr ^ Considering their alleged focus on economic development, the streetcar should be a shoo-in. However, we all know that is FAR from being the case. So who gets to decide the expected economic impact of proposed projects? Kasich? Wray? Apparently not people who study such things professionally.
May 10, 201114 yr Wow, how much more information do they need? This has been studied so much already along with presentations. I think we've all learned that the opposition to this project is never interested in reading facts or hearing legitimate information on the subject. This meeting was scheduled so they could sit there and yell at the Mayor and the Streetcar team in front of the media. They will be barking their same old tired arguments that "the city can't afford it because of this and that, blah, blah, blah" Now that the route is shorter I'm sure we'll be hearing arguments against the economic impacts it will have now compared to before. They'll probably try to pitch it as a fruitless effort since it doesn't reach the stadiums or uptown any longer. I'm sure we'll hear them say stupid things like we should be spending the money on "cleaning up crime" or "filling pot holes." All I know is that its going to be painful to read the Enquirer's coverage of this meeting because I'm sure they will take every absurd argument they hear against the project, no matter how little fact they contain, and post them up all over the front page of the website and newspapers for the next week. While at the same time only giving a few small lines to the proponents and all the facts surrounding the project. I'm also sure they'll go out of their way to quote all the clowns from COAST including Smitherman and Finney. How's that for a pessimistic out look on the meeting? Sorry, but that's generally the way these things go with the Enquirer and its campaign to destroy this project. Now that they have 4 morons on their side in City Council (I still can't believe Berding picked a republican to replace him!), its only going to make their campaign easier.
May 10, 201114 yr So who gets to decide the expected economic impact of proposed projects? Kasich? Wray? Apparently not people who study such things professionally. They've already been studied by HDR, an international transportation consulting firm with an excellent reputation.... http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/docs/EconomicAnalysis.pdf A review of the HDR study by the University of Cincinnati..... http://www.cincystreetcar.com/docs/UCStudy.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 10, 201114 yr So who gets to decide the expected economic impact of proposed projects? Kasich? Wray? Apparently not people who study such things professionally. They've already been studied by HDR, an international transportation consulting firm with an excellent reputation.... http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/docs/EconomicAnalysis.pdf A review of the HDR study by the University of Cincinnati..... http://www.cincystreetcar.com/docs/UCStudy.pdf Obviously, you didn't catch my meaning. My point was, with all the studies showing the streetcar to be a boon for economic development, you would think if the TRAC board were using that as their main criteria they would not have singled out the project for defunding. Clearly they were not following the assessment provided by professionals. Whose assessment were they following? Whose will they follow in the future, when determining which projects to fund based on their ability to stoke economic development?
May 10, 201114 yr The strategy of these Republicans has been and will continue to be to put truth on the defensive. Simply deny the existence of facts when this process has been transparent as required by law and all materials have been posted in a timely fashion on the city's website. I have been to about a half dozen events at City Hall over the past two or three years and it's been the exact same small group of people at them: Barry Horstman, then somewhere between a dozen and two dozen streetcar supporters. Opponents never show up until it's time for one of these media circuses.
May 10, 201114 yr I was in Cincy over the weekend and managed to spend some time in OTR. Been a while since I had been and driving through, I think people are crazy if they think the shortening of the route is going to make this route any less successful. The opportunities through OTR alone make this project worth undertaking. And I stand by my previous comments about walking from the Stadium/banks to the 5th street stop. From a tourism standpoint, this is not a conversation stopper. Like I said before, we have to walk further here in Indy from where we park cars to get to Colts games. Ive walked a mile to games in Buffalo and San Francisco. Those who say otherwise, need to think about how far they walk from their car to the mall. Through the mall. To similar sporting events. To say this is a project killer is not even worth talking about IMO. It only gives "them" fodder to have silly meetings like the one being called by GOP council members.
May 10, 201114 yr This is the mentality fueled by the Enquirer that we are dealing with: 'Streetcar is a Communist Idea' http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2011/05/09/streetcar-is-a-communist-idea/
May 10, 201114 yr That's so over the top it seems like parody. Though, with the way the right is behaving these days, it might not be.
May 10, 201114 yr The campaigns against a countywide transit tax in the 1970's frequently called buses "communist". This charge was led by the UAW, which no longer has a presence in the area after the GM plant in Norwood closed.
May 10, 201114 yr The campaigns against a countywide transit tax in the 1970's frequently called buses "communist". This charge was led by the UAW, which no longer has a presence in the area after the GM plant in Norwood closed. The push to add an anti-rail measure to the Cincinnati Charter is being supported by the Cincinnati FOP and firefighter unions (they were at one point helping to collect signatures). I'm always surprised that these unions are so anti-rail. Is it really a conservative bent against rail, or is it something else (like misguided selfishness that it would take money out of their pockets)? "Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett
May 10, 201114 yr The campaigns against a countywide transit tax in the 1970's frequently called buses "communist". This charge was led by the UAW, which no longer has a presence in the area after the GM plant in Norwood closed. The push to add an anti-rail measure to the Cincinnati Charter is being supported by the Cincinnati FOP and firefighter unions (they were at one point helping to collect signatures). I'm always surprised that these unions are so anti-rail. Is it really a conservative bent against rail, or is it something else (like misguided selfishness that it would take money out of their pockets)? Its very unusual. The argument I keep hearing from opponents of the streetcar is "They are cutting fire and police to build a streetcar". We all know that is BS and would be illegal if true, but do they? The Enquirer fuels this statement as well. Anyways, Mallory just stood up for police and fire in Cincinnati in his public opposition to SB5. We'll see how it goes. Regardless,police and fire will be a key vote in November since they will be out in droves due to SB5.
May 10, 201114 yr Supporters of SB5 repeal tend to be liberal/democratic. Supporters of transportation options tend to be liberal/democratic. Hopefully, with the high turnout in the next election of people who are anit-SB5, COAST's Charter Amendment will fail.
May 10, 201114 yr This is the mentality fueled by the Enquirer that we are dealing with: 'Streetcar is a Communist Idea' http://cincinnati.com/blogs/letters/2011/05/09/streetcar-is-a-communist-idea/ And the letter before it likened the streetcar to a terrorist target. Since the shortened route was announced, there's been a flurry of anti-streetcar letters including everyones favorite, paint a bus to look like a streetcar. "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
May 10, 201114 yr Enough information that it slows the project down until after the November election.... EDIT -- and just in case you missed it: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4500.msg557806.html#msg557806 Exactly. Their goal is to delay construction as late as possible until November. They could care less about anything being presented to them
May 11, 201114 yr "George Washington fought 2 wars to make sure there would never be a streetcar in Cincinnati." Golden.
May 11, 201114 yr Supporters of SB5 repeal tend to be liberal/democratic. Supporters of transportation options tend to be liberal/democratic. Hopefully, with the high turnout in the next election of people who are anit-SB5, COAST's Charter Amendment will fail. I think that may be a fallacy. While liberals support rail in general and are against SB5, I think many of hte people who will vote against SB5 are people who voted for Kaisch. The cops and firefighters and their families who are fiscally conservative and really do not care about rail. Ihave some fire fighter friends that rally against SB5 but they are just as vehemently against rail and the streetcar. They look at the streetcar as funding that should be going to help them keep their jobs or not have to take a paycut.
May 11, 201114 yr Yeah, and what's so incredibly frustrating about the firefighters who are so opposed to the streetcar is that they are rallying against the one thing the city is trying to do that would actually help them keep their jobs in the future. People in this area are just not looking at this project rationally. They don't realize that the city is actually trying to help them by building the streetcar and thus increasing their tax base so they can afford to pay their bills better, etc, etc. Its incredibly frustrating.
May 11, 201114 yr The campaigns against a countywide transit tax in the 1970's frequently called buses "communist". This charge was led by the UAW, which no longer has a presence in the area after the GM plant in Norwood closed. The push to add an anti-rail measure to the Cincinnati Charter is being supported by the Cincinnati FOP and firefighter unions (they were at one point helping to collect signatures). I'm always surprised that these unions are so anti-rail. Is it really a conservative bent against rail, or is it something else (like misguided selfishness that it would take money out of their pockets)? Its very unusual. The argument I keep hearing from opponents of the streetcar is "They are cutting fire and police to build a streetcar". We all know that is BS and would be illegal if true, but do they? The Enquirer fuels this statement as well. Anyways, Mallory just stood up for police and fire in Cincinnati in his public opposition to SB5. We'll see how it goes. Regardless,police and fire will be a key vote in November since they will be out in droves due to SB5. Most folks do not know how government is funded, or how money is spent. Witness the recent Enquirer polling for opinions on the City Budget (A short article was printed in the TM on Sunday), basically no one wanted to cut anything, but no one wanted to pay more for anything!
May 11, 201114 yr >not looking at this project rationally The central dilemma here is that if someone outside the city limits actually has the facts laid out for them, it shows that many of the assumptions they have held for a long time are false. People always hate discovering that they are wrong, and blame the messenger, especially after having shouted with all their might.
May 11, 201114 yr Here's what COAST is saying to its members through email today. Referring to the special meeting being held tonight... "Other than the ballot issue this November, this may be our last best chance to stop this enormous waste of monies!" It sounds like they think this meeting is actually a chance to stop the project somehow? We all need to be there to show our support and overwhelm the opposition. If we have a weak showing at this meeting its not going to look good. "http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=eoxgoicab&v=001rUMZSB4OvtFXbb4a2-zukpVpP0D6lwNU-92Newc_WJKi99ujrQj8MSrNsRw6N09Ujeicwq_fm8zWybYikjOH0YZt92bcckq_oUrQGEg48Vx64urEnrI5GA%3D%3D"
May 11, 201114 yr I really hope everyone can be there tonight. It's really crucial. This meeting was planned by opponents to try to STOP the project. They THINK they can get more people there, but we need to be there in full force. 6PM at City Hall- please be there!
May 11, 201114 yr Supporters of SB5 repeal tend to be liberal/democratic. Supporters of transportation options tend to be liberal/democratic. Hopefully, with the high turnout in the next election of people who are anit-SB5, COAST's Charter Amendment will fail. I think that may be a fallacy. While liberals support rail in general and are against SB5, I think many of hte people who will vote against SB5 are people who voted for Kaisch. The cops and firefighters and their families who are fiscally conservative and really do not care about rail. Ihave some fire fighter friends that rally against SB5 but they are just as vehemently against rail and the streetcar. They look at the streetcar as funding that should be going to help them keep their jobs or not have to take a paycut. A large amount of the police and firefighters who are so vehemently opposed to the streetcar no longer live in the city (which is absurd), so their votes won't really affect the vote in November. Another interesting thing is that I know a lot of staunchly conservative police and firefighters who are now questioning their allegiance to the republican party and realizing they don't represent them after all. For those select few who still reside in the city, I guess it could influence them to support the streetcar. However, I also would think those who have not given up on the city they serve, and still choose to reside in the city, are those who are more rational and choose to make informed and educated decisions anyway.
May 11, 201114 yr Author Now that the 2010 Census data is out, we can see how streetcars affect population growth in the cities that operate them. Here are the three cities operating modern streetcars: I examined the census tracts that the streetcar actually runs in for each city. PDX tracts- 48, 49 50 51 53 56 57 Seattle- 72 66 67 73 81 82 Tacoma- 602 616.01 616.02 All 2000 Data- US Census Bureau's site All 2010 Data- NYT Census Map (hasn't been loaded into Census Bureau's American Fact Finder)
May 11, 201114 yr Are there any similar stats for cities not in the Pacific Northwest? Charlotte maybe?
May 11, 201114 yr Author ^Can you include the raw numbers also in addition to percents? Sure. Portland Along Route: 18,257 -> 28,481 City Total: 529,121 -> 583,776 Seattle: Along Route: 19,977 -> 27,440 City Total: 563,374 -> 608,660 Tacoma Along Route: 2924 -> 4,708 City Total: 193,556 -> 198,397
May 11, 201114 yr Thanks for posting those. I think that the following analysis is more telling: Portland Along Route: 18,257 -> 28,481 (+10224) City Total: 529,121 -> 583,776 (+54655) 19% of population increase in Portland happened along the streetcar route. Seattle: Along Route: 19,977 -> 27,440 (+7463) City Total: 563,374 -> 608,660 (+45286) 16% of population increase in Seattle happened along the streetcar route. Tacoma Along Route: 2924 -> 4,708 (+1784) City Total: 193,556 -> 198,397 (+4841) 37% of the population increase in Tacoma happened along the streetcar route. All three cities showed an overall population increase.
Create an account or sign in to comment