I agree that the racism isn't the Equirer's. It's Smitherman's and his supporters'. Though racism doesn't quite get at it. It's more like apopletic, existenial rage that threatens to destroy Smitherman and his closest supporters in a series of increasingly desperate and transparent attempts to hijack cincinnati politics and bend it to serve their interests at all costs. Smitherman is a bully and a perverse ying to the yang of kasich and his tea party supporters. The problem is that the tea partiers don't live in cincinnati and Smitherman and his supporters do. They'll all fail, but could do some real damage in the mean time. Figuring out how to contain that damage will be a valuable thing in itself with respect to streetcars or anything else in cincinnati.

You know what's off topic? This.

 

There are plenty of threads to whine about how you perceive the Enquirer to be racist or provoking this fringe viewpoint. For instance:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,3152.0.html

Save the talk about crime & punishment for the appropriate thread. Moving on....

 

Anytime something you personally don't feel is merited is posted, it disappears.  How the Enquirer covers minorities is directly related to how they have covered the Cincinnati streetcar.  The paper has labeled the project as a waste primarily because of the origin of the location doesn't warrant dollars being spent there.  Isn't that outright support of disenfranchisement of African-American neighborhoods?  The Oasis Line hasn't been labeled unworthy on the grounds of community makeup in the Enquirer even though it intends to serve the eastern, white burbs of Cincinnati, putting city residents on the back burner.  Insinuating that the OTR loop will be unsafe or that no one will ride it because of the "thugs on every corner in OTR" is an accusation against the community, whether you believe it or not.

 

Discussing how the Enquirer treats minorities is off-topic. How the streetcar project may or may not be affected by race issues is on-topic. However, moderators and administrators hope that forumers will understand the difference between what is on- or off-topic before they exercise the privilege of sharing their opinions here. That is why I and other moderators won't waste time explaining what the differences are. If you can't/won't understand, your posting privileges may be revoked.

While I obviously don't think my views are on the "fringe", I do think they are relevant to the streetcar. Smitherman and his supporters are the only thing still standing in its way. Without his unholy alliance with Finney and others opponents it would be a done deal by now. He knows the funds for the streetcar can't go to his supporters interests, but he still sees opposition to the streetcar as a chance to bolster his political forces. We can use our awareness of this to build a broader base of support for the streetcar and other improvements like BRT with all those who don't support him. We need to do this both for the current short-line and for the necessary future extension to UC and beyond.

Save the talk about crime & punishment for the appropriate thread. Moving on....

 

Anytime something you personally don't feel is merited is posted, it disappears.  How the Enquirer covers minorities is directly related to how they have covered the Cincinnati streetcar.  The paper has labeled the project as a waste primarily because of the origin of the location doesn't warrant dollars being spent there.  Isn't that outright support of disenfranchisement of African-American neighborhoods?  The Oasis Line hasn't been labeled unworthy on the grounds of community makeup in the Enquirer even though it intends to serve the eastern, white burbs of Cincinnati, putting city residents on the back burner.  Insinuating that the OTR loop will be unsafe or that no one will ride it because of the "thugs on every corner in OTR" is an accusation against the community, whether you believe it or not.

 

Discussing how the Enquirer treats minorities is off-topic. How the streetcar project may or may not be affected by race issues is on-topic. However, moderators and administrators hope that forumers will understand the difference between what is on- or off-topic before they exercise the privilege of sharing their opinions here. That is why I and other moderators won't waste time explaining what the differences are. If you can't/won't understand, your posting privileges may be revoked.

 

I felt yesterday's post regarding the Enquirer was relevant, but after reading your explanation I can see why you felt it wasn't completely in line with the thread.  I appreciate your response, KJP.

^ the biggest problem with your argument is that the NAACP doesn't want the streetcar either because they say it will disenfranchise African-Americans. In fact, several of the speakers against the streetcar were African American. Hell- Charlie Winburn at a recent public safety hearing said he's against it because of the crime in the area.

 

This isn't a clear cut racial issue, so please don't paint it as one.

 

I'm certainly not trying to paint it as a clear cut issue on any level.  This is Cincinnati we're talking about.  Most things are a little more complicated in our beloved city.  Natininja did a much better job of communicating my stance, thank you Natininja.  Smitherman is popular in certain conservative black circles, but there are many that see him for what he is - part activist, part self-promoter/career politician.  Winburn is generally seen as a sellout in the black community.  Honestly, after years of reading the Enquirer and watching the timetables in which they cover a story, I have no choice but to believe that it is a discriminatory organization.  For ex, when the paper is against something (the streetcar), they run the opposing view relatively late in the news cycle, such as when Kasich pulled funds from the streetcar.  It took 2 weeks or more for them to run the story, "Streetcar Backers Cry Foul".  Mind you, the paper had run a column almost every day either detailing why the streetcar was a bad idea or some mindless opinion column completely bashing the project.  When the Enquirer wants to invoke strong feelings and run an article with more opinion than fact, they are on top of it and get the word out there ASAP.  Waiting to present the opposing view gives the community the impression that defeat has occurred and no one spoke up about it, hence justifying the stance that the Enquirer has held the entire time - that no one wanted the streetcar in the first place.

Does anyone know what the budget is to move water and sewer lines/manholes?  I'm aware of the Duke budget for electric and gas... but I was wondering if there was a line item for manholes/sewer/water. Is that true?

 

A typical cost for a water or sewer manhole is around $3000 - but that's not the issue. The issue is water and sewer manholes are normally built directly over the lines for access, and to move the manholes it is required to move the entire utility line with it. On top of that, it is not just the actual tracks that conflict with the manoles, but the overhead wire above. According to an expert from Portland, anything less than 10 feet from the centerline of track to the manhole is considered unsafe, so in effect the streetcar demands a 20' wide strip cleared of utilities. 

 

Sure, there are ways to get around the problem, but it's fair to say that it's going to cost multiple $millions to address utilities, and the utilities are not excited about spending $millions, and the utilities relocation portion of the streetcar budget as outlined in the feasibility study wasn't enough to cover it.

 

Does anyone know what the budget is to move water and sewer lines/manholes?  I'm aware of the Duke budget for electric and gas... but I was wondering if there was a line item for manholes/sewer/water. Is that true?

 

According to an expert from Portland, anything less than 10 feet from the centerline of track to the manhole is considered unsafe, so in effect the streetcar demands a 20' wide strip cleared of utilities. 

 

 

I called the director of Portland Streetcar and asked him if manholes needed to be kept at least eight feet from the operating envelope of the streetcar -- which is what Duke is insisting on -- and he just laughed. I mean, think about it.

 

In fact, they've left three manholes between the tracks -- ones they don't have to get into very often.

^ I'm going to believe John on this one- and not eighth and states source.

 

However- there are still some manholes that are directly on the track where a streetcar would travel- not in the middle of the road, but in the middle of the track area.  And while duke was budgeted- I was wondering about MSD-  Was that in the budget?

 

 

Thanks for the help guys.

It also depends on what manholes they are. They could be sewer, water, electric, or telephone. Electric and telephone would be the easiest to move. I would venture to say that those manholes closest to the edges of the streets are telephone, electric, and water. However, Eighth and State is correct that moving sewer manholes would require moving a decent amount of the main. Water main valves can be moved with less extensive construction.

 

I'm guessing Duke is trying to say they need a buffer between the manholes and the track because of the overhead wires. Potentially this could cause safety problems when accessing the manholes, but I'm sure they can make exceptions. Doesn't seem like a major problem to me. If it comes down to having a few manholes close to the tracks or moving an entire sewer main, I think they will figure out a way to make it work.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110522/NEWS01/105230337/Streetcar-only-slightly-faster-than-walking?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

 

What kinda garbage is this??

The 6.7 mph 'average speed' is far faster than most people can probably run! That's just faster than an 9 minute mile, which is fast for most people, unless they are regular walkers or joggers. That article headline is stupid!

Something Barry leaves out that I brought up to him when he interviewed me: he's an elite runner, better conditioned than almost all Cincinnatians. And he's a really fast walker. I know -- I spent a week in London with him and his wife a few years ago, walking and talking the Tube everywhere.

 

I'm a walker in good condition, and he writes that he can cover a segment of the streetcar's route in 12 minutes that routinely takes me about 20. I don't doubt that he did it, just doubt that it's relevant to the mainstream of Cincinnatians.

 

Honestly, how many Cincinnatians could walk from Fountain Square to Findlay Market in 16 minutes in other than ideal conditions?

If Barry is doing this because he wants an ideal streetcar plan, he's going to up end with nothing. This project, even with the section going up to UC, would have made it the longest, most aggressive new-start streetcar project in the United States. A shorter segment from the Banks to Findlay Market is much more realistic.

 

As they say, the enemy of the good is the perfect.

Wendall Young now wavering on his support.

 

http://www.wvxu.org/news/wvxunews_article.asp?ID=8830

 

"One Cincinnati council member says there may be a cheaper alternative for the city's proposed streetcar system.

 

Democrat Wendell Young is asking city administrators to explore ultra light rail, similar to a plan that's being implemented in Bristol, England. "

 

"the enemy of the good is the perfect." 

I assume he's doing it because it's his job to pen a hit piece per week on the Streetcar. 

But he personally supports rail transit, but I believe he has recently said that the streetcar project isn't aggressive enough. If so, compared to what? There is no precedent project in the U.S. more aggressive than Cincinnati's.

If he believes it isn't aggressive enough, that certainly isn't coming through in the articles.

What a reporter believes should never come through in a reporter's articles. But I believe his skepticism about the project makes him vulnerable to pressure from above to write critical articles.

I'm a walker in good condition, and he writes that he can cover a segment of the streetcar's route in 12 minutes that routinely takes me about 20. I don't doubt that he did it, just doubt that it's relevant to the mainstream of Cincinnatians.

 

I do doubt that he did it by walking.  He must have been jogging to cover 3.1 miles in 34 1/2 minutes.  Even if there were no intersections to cross or traffic lights or traffic to wait for and the sidewalks were completely empty, that's an unbelievable walking pace.  A 15 minute mile is a brisk walking pace, but somehow he managed to walk through the city at 11 minutes and 8 seconds per mile?  That's a 5.4 MPH average.  Even if you could magically keep up that pace while walking through the city, there's no way that's a walk.  Go on a treadmill and set it to 5.4 MPH and try to walk.  That's too fast for a walk unless you're pumping your arms like a maniac.  It's more of a slow jog than anything.

 

I call BS.

I support the streetcar, but given a choice a light rail line stretching into at least one suburb would get more intense support from me (and I don't think I'm alone in that).

I support the streetcar, but given a choice a light rail line stretching into at least one suburb would get more intense support from me (and I don't think I'm alone in that).

 

The city, IMHO, should not be spending money to allow for further growth of the burbs. They should be investing in City neighborhoods, which is what the streetcar does. Now, if, by suburb, you meant an outer city neighborhood like (North) Avondale, College Hill, or Westwood, then yes, I would probably agree with you. But the city shouldn't (nor could they) spend money on a light rail line to Sycamore Township, Delhi, Anderson Twp, or North College Hill.

I'm a walker in good condition, and he writes that he can cover a segment of the streetcar's route in 12 minutes that routinely takes me about 20. I don't doubt that he did it, just doubt that it's relevant to the mainstream of Cincinnatians.

 

 

I do doubt that he did it by walking.  He must have been jogging to cover 3.1 miles in 34 1/2 minutes.  Even if there were no intersections to cross or traffic lights or traffic to wait for and the sidewalks were completely empty, that's an unbelievable walking pace.  A 15 minute mile is a brisk walking pace, but somehow he managed to walk through the city at 11 minutes and 8 seconds per mile?  That's a 5.4 MPH average.  Even if you could magically keep up that pace while walking through the city, there's no way that's a walk.  Go on a treadmill and set it to 5.4 MPH and try to walk.  That's too fast for a walk unless your pumping your arms like a maniac.  It's more of a slow jog than anything.

 

I call BS.

 

I think you've hit on a great point that can reach only one conclusion if we believe the Enquirer's 'story'.  Barry M. Horstman is on the juice

Him and Lance....

What a reporter believes should never come through in a reporter's articles. But I believe his skepticism about the project makes him vulnerable to pressure from above to write critical articles.

 

Doesn't that mean his beliefs are coming through in the article, then?

What a reporter believes should never come through in a reporter's articles. But I believe his skepticism about the project makes him vulnerable to pressure from above to write critical articles.

 

Doesn't that mean his beliefs are coming through in the article, then?

 

Barry Horstman was on 700wlw today talking about how he can walk the route of the streetcar just as fast

 

Thompson then devotes another hour to bashing the project.

 

http://www.700wlw.com/cc-common/podcast/single_page.html?podcast=docThompson

 

 

What is up with 700wlw?  Is it an order from above to bash the project every day?  It's literally someone everyday bashing the project.

WLW is selling cars and sprawl. After all, why would WLW want to get people out of their cars?

 

Listen to their commercials. Half the ads are for automotive products. I'm sure, at some level, broadcasters have concluded that people in cities with rich transit systems drive fewer miles, spend less time in cars, and buy new cars less often. And probably don't spend as much money on the cars they do buy.

Why didn't he do a hit piece about how bicycles are as fast as cars in cities?  That they don't require parking garages? 

Why didn't he do a hit piece about how bicycles are as fast as cars in cities?  That they don't require parking garages? 

 

Exactly, in fact I would argue they are faster in and around downtown. I very typically beat cars from one end of downtown to another. I am so disgusted with the enquirer. I think they are in large part responsible for much of the ignorant comments I hear about this project as well as stupid comments about OTR. They are truly holding our city back.

The problem is that the population simply doesn't believe that the paper and the radio stations are lying to them about this day after day, year after year.  Like COAST said, we're just complaining about the officiating. 

If you ran the Flying Pig Marathon at the 6.7 mph, you would finish in the top 20% of the field.

 

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2011/05/23/streetcar-speeds-much-faster-than-average-walker/

I had to do a double check when reading the Enquirer article to make sure I wasn't reading The Onion.

A light rail line that runs from DT to Kenwood would be my first choice for rail investment in Cincinnati, followed by the Mt. Auburn subway extension of a downtown streetcar line. The current circulator is fine, but not by a long shot the best choice for the region (I'd like it better as a tri-city loop (Cincy, Cov, and Newport).

I think the streetcar project is close to ideal as a first step for modern rail in the region. OTR is tailor-made for TOD (literally, as that's how it was originally developed), and is the area where the biggest impact can be made with the least amount of capital expenditure. Start in the center and work out. That makes the most sense.

 

Any first light rail line should connect downtown to the airport, IMO.

^ I'm going to believe John on this one- and not Eighth and State's source.

 

I'm just passing along the information. Are the local utilities misinformed or overly cautious because they have no experince with streetcar wires? Maybe. But the fact is that they are asking for 10' horizontal clearances from the centerline of track. 

^ I'm going to believe John on this one- and not Eighth and State's source.

 

I'm just passing along the information. Are the local utilities misinformed or overly cautious because they have no experince with streetcar wires? Maybe. But the fact is that they are asking for 10' horizontal clearances from the centerline of track. 

 

They are being unnecessarily cautious.

The more I read this article, the more disgusted I am at our local "media".  I think we should keep calling out The Enquirer and Barry Horstman every time an article like this comes out.  There are many people who are opposed to the streetcar who are disgusted with this reporting too.  This issue has grown bigger than just the streetcar to me.  This issue has really showcased the crazy amount of bias in our media.  Has other cities in the US had to face this amount of ridiculous arguments coming from the opposition?  From the media?

 

I've noticed Carolyn Washburn and Barry Horstman getting some twitter heat( and rightfully so).  It's time to start calling them out on potshot pieces like this (respectfully of course)

^In my opinion, Barry Horstman needs to explain that the speed with which he claims to have walked the line is far faster than your typical Cincinnatian could even jog. 

^ I'm going to believe John on this one- and not Eighth and State's source.

 

I'm just passing along the information. Are the local utilities misinformed or overly cautious because they have no experince with streetcar wires? Maybe. But the fact is that they are asking for 10' horizontal clearances from the centerline of track. 

 

They are making it a big deal because of safety concerns when accessing the manholes. Ladders, tripod winches, tools all have the potential to come into contact with the wires when working in the manhole. However, I am at a loss to know why they think the lines couldn't be insulated as the standard operating procedure currently dictates when working within a certain distance of power lines. Furthermore, these manholes would likely be accessed at night when the streetcar is not in operation and the traffic can be easily redirected.

^ I'm going to believe John on this one- and not eighth and states source.

 

I'd trust someone who works for the city and is keenly aware of the ongoings. I wouldn't discount 8th and State...

WLW is selling cars and sprawl. After all, why would WLW want to get people out of their cars?

 

Listen to their commercials. Half the ads are for automotive products. I'm sure, at some level, broadcasters have concluded that people in cities with rich transit systems drive fewer miles, spend less time in cars, and buy new cars less often. And probably don't spend as much money on the cars they do buy.

 

Precisely.  Furthermore, WLW thrives on angst.  If the core of Cincinnati becomes a nationally-recognized district famous for vibrancy and QOL, there are at least 3 jockeys, one of them an attorney, that would be receiving a prompt, crisp pink slip.  What would they have to talk about?

The enquirer posted this today in response to our criticism:http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2011/05/24/how-long-does-it-take-you-to-walk-the-streetcar-route/

 

I think we need to all somehow come together and get an article published in the Enquirer explaining why the walking times of the streetcar route are not important.  The opposition frequently tries to argue that rail is somehow inferior to other modes of transportation because its slower than driving a car or using other modes of transit.  That's one of the things that ended up hurting the 3C project.

 

The Enquirer is either ignorantly missing the point or purposely mis-informing people to prevent them from seeing the actual benefits to a streetcar system.  I personally feel like it doesn't matter how fast it gets me from point A to point B.  Its about enhancing the overall urban environment, making transit simple and transparent, making a car unneccessary, being able to walk right on to the car with a bike or a bunch of groceries or whatever, being able to simply follow the tracks to figure out where the next stop is.  I mean, we all get it.  We understand why streetcars are better than buses, we understand why streetcars help cities grow, but we need to do a better job getting this info out there for everyone else to see.

 

Unfortunately, the only news source that most people go to in this city is either the Enquirer, 700wlw, or local news (wlwt, etc).  Blogs, twitter, and smaller papers just don't reach the masses well enough in Cincinnati.  Is there anyway that supporters could band together and get some fair, informative articles written or produced on radio/tv?

 

I don't know though, just thinking out loud...Perhaps it wouldn't matter if we informed people, they might ignore it anyway?

They would ignore it, unless it's framed in a way they find digestible. That would mean very craftily composing whatever informational material you decide upon.

 

By "digestible", I don't mean intellectually, but ideologically. You need to frame it in language which appeals to the broadest number of swayable skeptics. References to Portland or global warming, e.g., will instantly turn lots of people off.

Facts will turn people off. 

But selling a narrative is important. That's the thing the Enquirer is trying to do, scuttle the project by billing it as a waste. What supporters need is to sell the story of the benefits of the streetcar in a way that people can identify with. Facts and figures unfortunately don't do that, but selling the idea of what life can be like with the streetcar and even with a regional rail network, that can change minds.

^ I'm going to believe John on this one- and not eighth and states source.

 

I'd trust someone who works for the city and is keenly aware of the ongoings. I wouldn't discount 8th and State...

 

I know of no one who works for the city or who is on the streetcar design team who believes that keeping manholes ten feet away from the centerline of the tracks is reasonable.

 

Some feel manholes can be as close as two feet from the operating envelope of the streetcar. Others feel they need to be no further than four feet away. My sense is traffic is maintained on downtown streets fairly close to open manholes where work is taking place. And remember, a lot of this stuff can be and should be and often is done in the middle of the night downtown.

^ Good thing municipal utilities came along before car culture. If putting all that stuff under our Sacred Travel Lanes today were a novel idea, it would be laughed out of town.

 

 

If cars were invented today, they'd never make it past the Consumer Product Safety Commission for being far too deadly. Look at what they did to 3-wheelers and lawn darts back in the '80s.

I have to wonder, since the utilities lines Duke is saying will cost so much to move run through public right of way, can the city just tell them they have to move them? The space in which the lines run is owned by the city.

I just walked past a crew taking down a tree that overhangs power lines.  Presumably that line is turned on whereas the streetcar wire would be turned off when working at night. 

 

I have a picture I took in Portland of a construction site next to the streetcar tracks, with equipment just a few feet from the wires.  It was no different than any other fenced off construction site with power lines on poles above the sidewalks.