Has anyone heard anything about the status of the streetcar? Any movement with the feds? Any paperwork being passed around between agencies? Contracts signed? Or even anything about the opposition's petitions? Any spottings of people out collecting signatures? Any idea if they will find enough signatures to make the November ballot?

As of ths morning, they have collected 2,030 valid signatures out of the 7,467 needed. They will get the signatures, and it will be on the November ballot.

 

Interestingly, they are getting more valid signatures for the ballot issue opposing a fee for trash collection than they are for the streetcar.

 

 

Thanks, John. That is interesting about the trash fee signatures.

VERY interesting.

 

They have been collecting signatures since late Feburary.  3 and a half months and only have 2,000 valid signatures.  They have 4 months left to get the other 5,000. 

 

I don't think it's a given that they will get it.

 

Of course summer helps, we had a wet spring, etc.  but they will need to <i>more</i> than <i>double</i> their valid signatures in basically the same amount of time.

Is there anyway for the public  to independently validate their signatures? I wouldn't put it past smitherman and finney to try something shady

Any indication on when construction may start?

I recall with Issue 9 they were running a similar count with signatures around this time, then suddenly produced 12,000 or some obscene number.  When Nate Livingston was still blogging, he reported that they were hitting up retirement homes.  Others saw them soliciting drunks outside bars. 

 

Where is the local media on this?  That's right -- they want it on the ballot so they can keep running hit pieces. 

Eric Deters has a new time slot on 1160...First guest is Chris Smitherman...First topic is the city/streetcar...

 

The hatred that these people have for a project designed to stimulate economic development is truly incredible

Eric Deters has a new time slot on 1160...First guest is Chris Smitherman...First topic is the city/streetcar...

 

The hatred that these people have for a project designed to stimulate economic development is truly incredible

 

For some of the opponents, this is the mindset. This quote if from a Clermont County commissioner on his opposition to accepting a federal transportation grant- "“There’s no such thing as free money. I don’t care if the grants go to China. I just don’t believe in certain things,” he said. “I just don’t like it.”"

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/considerthisclermont/2011/06/08/clermont-commissioner-does-not-support-mass-transit/

Some people just don't like being around other people. That's the only explanation I have for why some people hate cities, density, transit and the energy/dynamism they create.

^ Until they're lying in an exurban ditch upside down trapped in their SUV where nobody can see them. They'll be wishing for density and other people then.

I have lived in the true boondocks, and it sucks.  Everyone says they like the quiet, but the fact is a single passing car is incredibly distracting, not to mention farm equipment, chain saws, hunting rifles, etc.  Also, pet cats and dogs face the very real threat of being killed by coyotes.  My mom's garden was destroyed last year by a pig that got loose from a nearby farm. 

 

Also, the distance to hospitals is a big problem.  I knew a guy at OU who cut off his finger on a table saw and had to drive 90 minutes to Columbus with the finger in a tupperware container.  They were able to reconnect it, but much longer and they might not have.   

Some people just don't like being around other people. That's the only explanation I have for why some people hate cities, density, transit and the energy/dynamism they create.

 

Naw, the people who don't like being around other people live in Idaho.

 

Many people want to live in a large, newer house with private parking, some privacy, access to shopping, and  especially, quality schools. They also want utilities and access to jobs. For many of these people, the answer is a single family house in the suburbs.

 

 

 

 

 

OK, keep telling yourself that.

Some people just don't like being around other people. That's the only explanation I have for why some people hate cities, density, transit and the energy/dynamism they create.

 

Naw, the people who don't like being around other people live in Idaho.

 

Many people want to live in a large, newer house with private parking, some privacy, access to shopping, and  especially, quality schools. They also want utilities and access to jobs. For many of these people, the answer is a single family house in the suburbs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Other people want to live in cities with fairly funded, quality infrastructure and contribute a diversity of lifestyles to a national economy that is not a loss-leader.

 

But I suppose they do keep some people around on this forum just to keep the rest of us entertained.

OK, keep telling yourself that.

 

I don't have to tell myself that. My friends are telling me that.

 

As an example, one of my buddies just bought a new house. In fact, it was a new house, custom built. I asked him why he chose to live in that particular place.

 

He wanted a big house on a cul-de-sac in the suburbs. He specifically chose the location based on the reputation of the school district. His house is reasonably close to his parents' house and his wife's parents's house, and is a 30 minute drive to his job in the suburbs. The house is a two-story mcmansion with a basement and two-car garage on 3/4 acres of land in a new subdivision.

 

He intentionally built near the Harrison/Rybolt area because of the shopping opportunities. (Why he did this is a mystery to me. I can't stand that area.)

 

He tells me that this is the house he always dreamed of. He is raising two children. He makes good money. His family has two cars, and one of them is a minivan. 

 

These are the kinds of people who could potentially revitalize our cities. But he didn't move to the city. He chose the suburbs. So did many, many others like him.

 

Sorry for drifting off topic, but I am pretty sure the lack of a streetcar is NOT what kept him from choosing Over-the-Rhine. He had very specific reasons for choosing the suburbs.

 

In any case, this man is a very sociable person, and is NOT afraid of high density areas because he want's to get away from people. He used to have Cincinnati Bengals season tickets. If anyone wants to get away from people, an NFL game is NOT the place to be!

 

I keep hearing on this board that young people are choosing to live in cities because of the diversity, transit options, and all that. Certainly there are some that do, but I personally see a lot more of the opposite, and it seems to be coorelated with wealth. Maybe I just have the wrong friends, aye?

 

 

 

 

Sounds like your friend probably lives somewhere close to my parents who just built a house in a similar neighborhood in that part of town...disgusting to me, but if that's what he likes oh well.  To each his own, although I still think that when someone chooses to live 45 minutes away from where they work just so they can be in the newest, greatest suburb (which is what ends up happening a lot in this city for people who work downtown and live in West Chester or Mason or somewhere else super far away) its an irresponsible and foolish choice, but who am I to judge?

 

This city seems to have a disproportionately large number of people like your friend.  Why? I have no idea, but that's the only reason you see that trend.  I do believe that the younger generations, especially in larger cities, are more inclined to look for a life outside the suburbs they grew up in, but I can't back that up with numbers.  I just know that all of my friends and acquaintances are disgusted with the thought of living in a mcmansion suburb.  It seems to me that the number of people who are disgusted with that sort of living situation is rising, but again that's just my observation.

 

I think you bring up a good point though.  This city currently attracts the type of person who's looking for a safe, quiet place to have kids and do safe (and what I perceive as boring) things.  There's nothing wrong with being that way, its just a different type of person.  People who want to live in a big city generally have different goals/interests in life.  For instance, I would love to live in San Francisco because I love the weather, the urban environment and the proximity to the Sierra Nevada mountain range.  I don't really care if there are good school districts or neatly trimmed suburban neighborhoods. 

 

The biggest problem with this city, IMO, is that it currently only caters to the type of person like your friend.  The city should try to cater to a wider diversity of people and one way it can do that is to enhance its urban environment through investing in things like the streetcar.  That way its urban neighborhoods can be just as strong as its suburban ones and the city as a whole will be stronger and more competitive. 

Some people just don't like being around other people. That's the only explanation I have for why some people hate cities, density, transit and the energy/dynamism they create.

All the lifestyle subsidies for suburbanites have a major effect on the environments people choose to live in. Make all the infrastructure costs more use-based and transparent, and patterns will shift. It's a matter of expressing the case against suburban lifestyle subsidies in language suburbanites themselves use and are responsive to (such as the language reasonable but ignorant suburbanites use against the streetcar). But you can't blame people for wanting to take advantage of lifestyle subsidies when they are part of the culture.

 

If someone can get by with paying for only new infrastructure and avoiding maintenance costs on the older infrastructure that supports their lifestyle, who can blame them for doing that? If they can get by with paying a fraction of the actual cost of their commute, while the rest is absorbed into the community, who can blame them for taking advantage? If they can get away with paying only for the educations of the cheapest, easiest kids to educate in the community, if they can get away with paying to police only the most law-abiding members of their region, who can blame them for taking these handouts?

 

While this system is not best for the community, the region, the state, the country, in the long run, it is easy to see why people take advantage of the opportunity they are presented with. Why would they pay to deal with problems inherent to the city, when they can use all the city's amenities by living nearby instead of inside the limits?

Wow, I've never thought of it that way, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.  Whether people realize this is what they are doing or not, it sounds about right.  For more practically minded people who like to save their pennies and always chose the most practical and cheapest solution to everything in their lives, the suburbs and the current highway dominated transportation system makes the most sense to them, even if it only truly benefits them.

The most absurd argument to me is the belief that taxes are so much lower in unincorporated areas.  Fact is everyone has to pay state and federal income taxes, which are the majority of the tax that most people pay.  Local sales, income, and property taxes can only vary so much, and they can be offset by lower transportation costs. 

 

For example, if you live near downtown, you save at least $100 each time you take the TANK bus to the airport over taking a cab or putting your vehicle in long-term parking.  That's not a practical option for anyone living in Butler, Warren, or Clermont Counties. 

 

 

 

 

If these people hate taxes so much, they shouldn't drive. People are paying gas taxes every second their automobile runs.

Population Growth 2000-2010

 

Portland:

Percentage of Total Citywide

Growth Along Streetcar Line 18.7%

 

Streetcar Length (end to end) 4 mi

City Size                                 145.4 sq/mi

 

Seattle:

Percentage of Total Citywide

Growth Along Streetcar Line 16.5%

 

Streetcar Length (end to end) 1.3 mi

City Size                                 142.5 sq/mi

 

Tacoma:

Percentage of Total Citywide

Growth Along Streetcar Line 36.9%

 

Streetcar Length (end to end) 1.6 mi

City Size                                 62.6 sq/mi

 

 

 

^this just looks at the census tracts that the streetcar actually enters, so you have some census tracts that are in the walkshead of the line that aren't captured and probably some of the census tracts at the ends of the line that might be out of the walkshead that might be included but overall, it's the best I could come up with.

One of the more important things to see in Portland is that the condo construction in the Pearl District is most certainly concentrated around the streetcar in preference to the waterfront, which is parallel and just a few blocks away.  There are some new condos along the river in that area, but it feels like the boondocks compared to the streetcar area. 

One of the more important things to see in Portland is that the condo construction in the Pearl District is most certainly concentrated around the streetcar in preference to the waterfront, which is parallel and just a few blocks away.  There are some new condos along the river in that area, but it feels like the boondocks compared to the streetcar area. 

 

The thing with the south waterfront is that most of that opened right before or during the downturn. I imagine a lot of people are feeling pretty chapped over those high rises despite how cool they look. I was there in October and the neighborhood has a very empty feeling compared to the Pearl. Hopefully thigns pick up as the economy does.

One of the more important things to see in Portland is that the condo construction in the Pearl District is most certainly concentrated around the streetcar in preference to the waterfront, which is parallel and just a few blocks away.  There are some new condos along the river in that area, but it feels like the boondocks compared to the streetcar area. 

 

I give that comment two thumbs up

I think it's pretty obvious that Portland's South Waterfront was overbuilt.  I was there in January 2009 and it was pretty empty, with one or two more towers going up.  It's obviously an attractive area for those who work at the hospital because in addition to the streetcar they have the aerial tram.  Long-term those two transportation connections will help sales and rentals but it'll probably be ten years before anything else is built there.   

Living in the area now, I can tell you that people are indeed chapped at the south waterfront high rises.  A lot of people did buy at the peak and paid a lot.  One big concern was the fact that the area was supposed to have a large affordable housing component.  It kept getting pushed off during the good times, and then the money dried up after the bust.  They are only now starting a much smaller affordable component after threats of legal action and other wrangling. 

^ I'm guessing the CBD to Milwaukie LRT, which seems about ready to get started, will bring the South Waterfront a little more into the mainstream. I think access now is really awkward. The whole thing seems a little forced.

Coincidentally John, they just postponed that extension until next year.

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/lake-oswego/index.ssf/2011/06/controversial_458_million_lake_oswego_to_portland_streetcar_project_on_hold_until_early_2012.html

Coincidentally John, they just postponed that extension until next year.

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/lake-oswego/index.ssf/2011/06/controversial_458_million_lake_oswego_to_portland_streetcar_project_on_hold_until_early_2012.html

 

Nope, wrong project. The article above is about the CBD to Lake Oswego streetcar line that would extend the Portland Streetcar south from where it ends now along the west side of the Willamette River.

 

The Milwaukie Light Rail will take off from the end of Fifth/Sixth Avenue couplet just south of Portland State , cross the Willamette on a new rail bridge and go down the east side of the Willamette through SE Portland. I think the bridge is to be just north of the South Waterfront and will touch down on the east bank near OMSI. The Milwaukie LRT won't travel through the South Waterfront like the LO Streetcar will, but it will get pretty close. So for people living there and working in a broad area of Portland, it will provide really good access.

 

I believe it's mostly funded and ready to go.

Assuming that the Lake Oswego project follows the abandoned rail line, it bears some resemblance to the idea of putting streetcars on the Oasis line.  The things I'm worried about with it is that it could open too many more good sites for development, slowing the build-out of the South Waterfront.  For example, a hospital worker looking to take advantage of the tram would have a lot more areas to to look at when choosing a home or apartment.  Second, the ride from the end of this proposed line to Downtown Portland could be awfully long, although it looks like it's a slow 3-mile drive from the town to I-5, so the streetcar is not competing directly with a parallel interstate highway.   

Sorry, my mistake.

 

I'm checking on this thread to see if there's any actual Cincinnati Streetcar News. I'm guessing there isn't?

^ There's news. There's news all the time on the streetcar. It's just steady progress that probably doesn't qualify as "News."

Has anybody noticed this thread is veering way off course?

 

Yes

 

^ There's news. There's news all the time on the streetcar. It's just steady progress that probably doesn't qualify as "News."

 

Thanks John, I was just having some difficulty finding it through all the debate. Perhaps there needs to be a secondary "Cincinnati Streetcar Issues" thread?

 

Oh well, we're all friends here and I'm not around that much. Just like the inside scoop.

It bugs the hell out of me to agree with Mark Miller, but road crews have barely gone a mile on Hamilton Avenue in 4 years & Madison Avenue in Oakley is barely creeping along. Is there any chance the streetcar can really be built (with utility moving, etc) in any kind of reasonable time?

http://quimbob.blogspot.com/2011/06/job-security-get-onboard-road-crew.html

 

No.

 

^Woah, can't believe 8th & St. said that! What a surprise.

Don't be snarky, because he's right. Madison is going from a one-year to a two-year clusterfuck on Madison and construction is progressing very slowly through the northern half of the business district - despite pleas from the business owners who may threaten the city with a lawsuit for loss of business if it doesn't go any faster. They have only a handful of crews working on it right now. Heck, it took them over a year just to do utility work and repave Madison from Oakley towards Madisonville!

 

Hamilton and Ashtree (and the roadway as it climbs the hill) has been under construction for over one year now, and the segment at Ashtree has been under construction since last year - just to expand the width of the roadway to add in wider lanes and a new traffic signal! I can't remember the last time I saw a work crew over there (it's right up the road from my house).

 

At least Dana is progressing further, which is why I believe the other projects have so few workers. The time line is to have the roadway construction complete in about one year, and the utility relocation is complete already - taking just four months. Eminent domain issues are holding up the project by Xavier due to one house owned by one asshole who won't sell for any price, so the roadway is literally being completed on both sides of the house right now. No doubt my employer requested an aggressive schedule to not tie up traffic during move-in in August.

 

For the streetcar, you are routing construction through downtown through areas that have undoubtedly more utilities underground than anywhere else in the city. The costs for utility relocation haven't been ironed out and will cost far more than budgeted, which will be a set back. Call me a skeptic...

Do these road projects have funding issues?

No, it's just construction issues. I think Jeffrey can elaborate more on Madison, but there were problems with installation and post-installation on the water lines. And they are just generally slow. Went through Madison on Oakley yesterday and saw all of 5 workers on-site. On Dana, over 40 between Victory Parkway and Interstate 71. On Hamilton at Ashtree, 0 - again.

Seriously?  We're still talking about utility relocation for a streetcar project in Cincinnati, OH as though it's some kind of epic engineering challenge on par with the Chunnel or widening of the Panama Canal? 

^ No not an engineering challenge, but a coordination challenge. ALL Urban projects have utility issues and delays

No, it's just construction issues. I think Jeffrey can elaborate more on Madison, but there were problems with installation and post-installation on the water lines. And they are just generally slow. Went through Madison on Oakley yesterday and saw all of 5 workers on-site. On Dana, over 40 between Victory Parkway and Interstate 71. On Hamilton at Ashtree, 0 - again.

 

There might not have been work for more than five guys that day. Counting hard hats isn't always the best way to determine if work is moving forward.

Seriously?  We're still talking about utility relocation for a streetcar project in Cincinnati, OH as though it's some kind of epic engineering challenge on par with the Chunnel or widening of the Panama Canal? 

 

And both those things got done!

Wow there has seriously been nothing but forum masturbation in this thread for weeks now.

 

Who gives a shit if it takes a bit longer to do the utilities? Nobody knows exactly how long it's really going to take, and they never did. Is it a project with a good ROI? Do you support it? Yes? No?

 

That's all that matters.

Smitherman & Co. took a huge blow this week.  The Sec. of State has issued a directive forcing Hamilton County to stop pre-checking petition signatures.  You now have once chance to turn in what you hope is the right number, and if you're short, you don't get a second chance. 

 

Forever, you've been allowed to pre-check, turn in 5,000, get told only 3,000 are valid, go back and get 4,000 get told 2,000 are valid, etc.  Now, when you turn it in, that's it! and if you're short, you're screwed.  This makes it significantly more difficult for anti-streetcar people to get the ~7500 needed signatures. They were able to have 2,000 verified before the directive went through. 

Some news on the streetcar soon ...

^ Brutal, just absolutely brutal John...