July 28, 201113 yr BTW- It's not two weeks. They have until September 9 - 60 days before the election. Like I said, they still could very well get there, but they are way behind where Smitherman's petition signatures usually are. Oh. Well in that case I fully expect them to get enough signatures...
July 28, 201113 yr BTW- It's not two weeks. They have until September 9 - 60 days before the election. If that's the case, why would Smitherman say they were down to 13 days (Aug. 10)? "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
July 28, 201113 yr Chanel 19 gave this non-issue an awful lot of coverage. They also failed to mention that the public ALREADY voted on this two years ago.
July 28, 201113 yr Chanel 19 gave this non-issue an awful lot of coverage. They also failed to mention that the public ALREADY voted on this two years ago. Petition blitz Friday to fight streetcar Posted: Jul 28, 2011 2:22 PM Updated: Jul 28, 2011 4:38 PM By Trina Edwards - email MORE LOCAL NEWS 4-year-old flown to hospital after falling down the stairs Former CODE president pleads not guilty Petition blitz Friday to fight streetcar 73-year-old arrested in police standoff Pre-school owner charged with rape Western Concern and Citizens Against Streetcar Swindle are holding a petition blitz on Friday to fight Cincinnati's proposed streetcar. The blitz is July 29 from 4 to 6 p.m. in the Sears parking lot at the intersection of Werk and Glenway. Streetcar opponents need 7,400 valid signatures to get the streetcar issue on the November ballot. The deadline to turn in the signatures is Aug. 10. Opponents say they want the issue on the ballot to show city leaders that they do not support the project. The City has committed to the streetcar line running from The Banks to Uptown, the area around the University of Cincinnati, hospitals and zoo. Mayor Mark Mallory, a streetcar supporter, said the project will provide $1.4 billion to the city. http://www.fox19.com/story/15166040/petition-blitz-friday-over-streetcar-fight
July 29, 201113 yr Nick Gillespie Q & A Q: You’re not fans of the streetcar, either. -There are no places in America where this type of redevelopment has worked. What works is the less glamorous stuff. What politicians have to do is make it so every new person who wants to open a small business or large business doesn’t have to come and kiss the ring of the pope of the moment. At the same time, you give up on the fantasy that what we really need in Cincinnati is an opera house or more classical music or a better museum. I generated an axiom that anytime you ask somebody about a city, if they mention a symphony orchestra in the top three or five attractions, you know you’re in a totally dead town. Nobody says what’s great about New York is Carnegie Hall or the Philharmonic. These are not the things that make a city great. They are reflections of cities that have vast amounts of wealth, which is always generated from much more humble activities. With Cincinnati, are people really going to say, Oh you know it’s great now we have this fucking streetcar? No. What they’re going to say is that we have great businesses and great restaurants and schools that are responsive. That’s not going to come from white elephant Oedipus-complex projects that politicians and local business leaders always want. http://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/webexclusives/Story.aspx?ID=1462165
July 29, 201113 yr Stretching his generic replies: "If a project makes sense, private money will be there. Even in the worst economy, there’s a lot of private capital available. If the government is coughing up dough, it’s a sign that this project is bullshit. The market is telling you that this cannot pay off on its own." So, roads and highways fall into this? There are actually libertarians that are in favor of tolling nearly every roadway in existence, which could only be achievable with GPS-based tolling that is being piloted in Oregon (or Washington?). But they cry about government intervention and privacy, so...
July 29, 201113 yr ^ and of course, who pays for nearly all GPS? The US Government. I was 30 days mistaken on the ballot deadline- My bad! It's gonna be tough for them-- but it's possible. Let's all hope for lots of rain Friday night. :P
July 29, 201113 yr Nick Gillespie Q & A Q: You’re not fans of the streetcar, either. -There are no places in America where this type of redevelopment has worked. What works is the less glamorous stuff. What politicians have to do is make it so every new person who wants to open a small business or large business doesn’t have to come and kiss the ring of the pope of the moment. At the same time, you give up on the fantasy that what we really need in Cincinnati is an opera house or more classical music or a better museum. I generated an axiom that anytime you ask somebody about a city, if they mention a symphony orchestra in the top three or five attractions, you know you’re in a totally dead town. Nobody says what’s great about New York is Carnegie Hall or the Philharmonic. These are not the things that make a city great. They are reflections of cities that have vast amounts of wealth, which is always generated from much more humble activities. With Cincinnati, are people really going to say, Oh you know it’s great now we have this f$&king streetcar? No. What they’re going to say is that we have great businesses and great restaurants and schools that are responsive. That’s not going to come from white elephant Oedipus-complex projects that politicians and local business leaders always want. Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18957.13920.html#ixzz1TTLk81b9 This is unfortunate. Here is someone who is trying to think deeper about cities, but really doesn't get it.
July 29, 201113 yr I updated my previous comment with more info- It's actually public info to know where any ballot measure is at any moment. You can go to the Board of Elections to find out- I got it in an email with a break down of Smitherman's other ballot measures. Ban on Police Merger at 2833 Ban on Trash Fee & Mayoral Recall are both at about 3500 Remember, Smitherman says he has MANY more turned in but that the BoE hasn't gotten to them yet. Either way, he's still significantly farther behind than he usually is. I thought about a month ago the Secretary of State ordered all local BOE's to stop pre-checking signatures.
July 29, 201113 yr Westwood concern just on WLW w/Thompson. Their blitz is this weekend. Thompson volunteering his time and effort if needed. In addition to Werk & Glenway this afternoon, they'll be on Fountain Square again today Noon-1. Earlier & later if need be. Their figures indicate they are 1400 signatures away. "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
July 29, 201113 yr Anyone gonna be down there to witness their shenanigans? Or to highlight the language and implications of what people are signing? Would that be an okay thing to do -- to try to inform people before they sign?
July 29, 201113 yr Anyone gonna be down there to witness their shenanigans? Or to highlight the language and implications of what people are signing? Would that be an okay thing to do -- to try to inform people before they sign? Even just a large sign that simply says- This amendment bans all rail, not just the streetcar. And then don't say anything, just hold the sign. I know John is against these sort of things- And I'm not really sure if you'll just end up drawing more attention. I think a better bet would be to get a marching band to play on the square right next to where they are signing petitions. That's my vote!
July 29, 201113 yr I updated my previous comment with more info- It's actually public info to know where any ballot measure is at any moment. You can go to the Board of Elections to find out- I got it in an email with a break down of Smitherman's other ballot measures. Ban on Police Merger at 2833 Ban on Trash Fee & Mayoral Recall are both at about 3500 Remember, Smitherman says he has MANY more turned in but that the BoE hasn't gotten to them yet. Either way, he's still significantly farther behind than he usually is. I thought about a month ago the Secretary of State ordered all local BOE's to stop pre-checking signatures. He did- then about a week later he allowed it for this election cycle, but not for future elections.
July 29, 201113 yr Their figures indicate they are 1400 signatures away. ^ Where did you get that number? Did they say that on the radio?
July 29, 201113 yr Their figures indicate they are 1400 signatures away. ^ Where did you get that number? Did they say that on the radio? I wouldn't put much stock into their PR As we all know, the COAST crowd has a tendency to stretch or not tell the truth
July 29, 201113 yr Their figures indicate they are 1400 signatures away. ^ Where did you get that number? Did they say that on the radio? Mary Kuhl told Doc Thompson that in the "interview". "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
July 29, 201113 yr This is unfortunate. Here is someone who is trying to think deeper about cities, but really doesn't get it. Most of the streetcar opponents think of the streetcar as an amenity similar to a museum or park rather than basic infrastructure such as a bridge or water main. The proponents see the streetcar as basic infrastructure. That is the main difference between the two sides. Both sides claim that the other "doesn't get it."
July 29, 201113 yr Author I walked by the square at lunch. There was a woman with for petitions walking around the square in a Smitherman for Council T-shirt and two other women at the crosswalk. I didn't see anyone sign (but I wasn't around for very long).
July 29, 201113 yr This is unfortunate. Here is someone who is trying to think deeper about cities, but really doesn't get it. Most of the streetcar opponents think of the streetcar as an amenity similar to a museum or park rather than basic infrastructure such as a bridge or water main. The proponents see the streetcar as basic infrastructure. That is the main difference between the two sides. Both sides claim that the other "doesn't get it." I don't think its basic infrastructure. I think it's got a good chance of returning its investment. That's the only thing people "get" or "don't get."
July 29, 201113 yr I don't think its basic infrastructure. I think it's got a good chance of returning its investment. That's the only thing people "get" or "don't get." Fixed guideway transit is basic infrastructure for cities with vibrant urban cores. And people "get" that only by experiencing such cities first-hand. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 29, 201113 yr If COAST had been around in the 1800's, you can bet they'd be screaming "boondoggle" against basic infrastructure like a sanitary sewer system or a bridge across the Ohio River. They're nothing more than anarchists who hate the idea that government even exists, and well-developed infrastructure is one of the most permanent and visible legacies of any government (even as they delude themselves into thinking that their sprawling suburbs weren't without a large dose of government help). They don't give a damn about the fiscal angle; this is a culture war for them.
July 29, 201113 yr Gee, sometimes I think that there really is a rail cult. I can give examples of vibrant cities without rail, or cities with rail that are not vibrant. Still, I agree that many cities with rail are vibrant. I guess it is assumed that vibrant cities are more desireable. Why, then, are suburban areas so popular while they are so dull? The people abandoned urban Cincinnati in favor of the suburbs even while Cincinnati was served by lots of rail including passenger railroads, interurbans, and intraurbans. COAST is not the reason why the streetcar lacks support. COAST is a small but vocal minority that opposes the streetcar for reasons unrelated to transportation or infrastructure. The streetcar lacks support because most of the residents of the Cincinnati metro are not interested in vibrant cities. Granted, many of them have never experienced a true vibrant, urban area. Most of the Cincinnati metro is suburban, even within the municipal limits, and most residents of the Cincinnati metro chose to live in suburban areas despite the fact that most suburban areas are dull. Proposing a streetcar to return vibrancy to cities assumes that people want vibrancy when it is clear that a majority do not value vibrancy over other reasons to live in the suburbs. As for return on investment, there are other things that the City of Cincinnati could do that would be better investments first, and some of those things would also make the City of Cincinnati more desireable for suburbanites.
July 30, 201113 yr Gee, sometimes I think that there really is a rail cult. I can give examples of vibrant cities without rail, or cities with rail that are not vibrant. Still, I agree that many cities with rail are vibrant. I guess it is assumed that vibrant cities are more desireable. Why, then, are suburban areas so popular while they are so dull? The people abandoned urban Cincinnati in favor of the suburbs even while Cincinnati was served by lots of rail including passenger railroads, interurbans, and intraurbans. COAST is not the reason why the streetcar lacks support. COAST is a small but vocal minority that opposes the streetcar for reasons unrelated to transportation or infrastructure. The streetcar lacks support because most of the residents of the Cincinnati metro are not interested in vibrant cities. Granted, many of them have never experienced a true vibrant, urban area. Most of the Cincinnati metro is suburban, even within the municipal limits, and most residents of the Cincinnati metro chose to live in suburban areas despite the fact that most suburban areas are dull. Proposing a streetcar to return vibrancy to cities assumes that people want vibrancy when it is clear that a majority do not value vibrancy over other reasons to live in the suburbs. bzzzzzzzzt, That's more of that "Suburbs is what people wanted" crap that completely ignores the hard work of the best salesmen and marketers in the world -- those in the real estate and auto industries. People, in the aggregate, buy what is "sold" to them. Walkability and social opportunities were not sold nearly as hard as fear and sprawl. And of course, cities were dirty, hot and overcrowded back in the old days.
July 30, 201113 yr Gee, sometimes I think that there really is a rail cult. Lord knows theirs no such thing as an auto, oil, and sprawl cult out there who believe it costs nothing to keep building more and more roads. The hypocrisies of these vocal opponents to anything rail is astounding. I'm honored to be part of a rail cult, streetcar mafia, or whatever you want to call it. Unlike some, I do care about what we leave to our kids. And we're going to have some pretty pissed off kids if all we leave them is cul-de-sacs.
July 30, 201113 yr Politicians directed the hate of the people toward railroads starting as early as the 1850s. Railroads grew into the nation's most powerful companies by the end of the century (newspapers once had daily "railroad news" sections), and legislation was steadily enacted that limited their power after having given them land grants and the god-like power of eminent domain after the Civil War. This culminated in establishment of the ICC in 1919, which limited railroad profits to 6% of revenue. This meant railroads could no longer be the political forces that they once were, so the car and oil companies built on the hatred of railroads while the railroads themselves were muzzled. It also devastated their general finances, since they could not retain "excess" profits in good years but weren't bailed out in cases of floods or other calamities. Also, it obviously hurt stock prices and their ability to sell bonds. Between 1900 and 1915, private companies DID build and operate subway lines in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston (in specific cases, the city's credit was used to back construction bonds and as early as 1920 some fares were subsidized). Private companies DID build vehicular bridges (we had three of them here across the Ohio River), but none EVER built something like an urban expressway. Only one city ever built an urban expressway with its own money, and that was New York's West Side Highway in the late 1920s. Cities generally weren't able to build urban expressways even after the enactment of state gasoline taxes in the 1920s because expressways then as now were incredibly expensive and state populations were still mostly rural. The finances to build urban expressways didn't appear until enactment of the federal gasoline tax in 1956. Meanwhile the car and oil companies rolled out massive propaganda campaigns. Phrases like "what's good for GM is good for America" were concocted by experts and sprung on a naive public. All of the car ads then as now reinforce the idea that "this is normal, this is good". Someone who chooses to live in the city in the Midwest has to constantly defend their decision to the suburban culture. It's been said elsewhere but shows like Seinfeld and more recently Sex & the City presented a "cities are good" image for the first time in TV history and have had a profound effect on their acceptance. Sex & the City is probably single-handedly responsible for the conspicuous surplus of single women ages 25-35 in New York, which by most estimates far exceeds 100,000: http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/new-york-citys-gender-gap-139. Eighth & State, the only way I can see a better expenditure of $100 million by the City of Cincinnati would be to pay Hollywood people to set a dozen youth-oriented movies and sit-coms in Cincinnati. And we can't sell bonds to fund that, nor can we use an urban circulator grant.
July 30, 201113 yr OK, let's eliminate all government spending for infrastructure and force everything to be owned by the private sector. Then let's find how much it really costs to drive, what the free market is for transportation, and how cities are physically reoriented as a result. I can tell you almost exactly how it would look -- see America circa 1920. FYI, it's only a rail cult in the parts of the world that don't have rail (or perhaps a cosmetic line or two), where no one wants to live and thus the costs of living are so low, where creative young people are fleeing, and leaving behind only poor people and old people whose economic future seems limited to building more big box stores and churches. That's Ohio. And Ohio is a cult. It's a pathetic remnant of what it once was in a rapidly improving world that increasingly views us as stale white bread, if they view us at all. I've traveled the world. Every time I come back I feel like I've just walked into Stephen King's "Children of the corn." If it wasn't so hard to move from family, a condo and a neighborhood I still like, I'd have been gone years ago. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 30, 201113 yr Someone who chooses to live in the city in the Midwest has to constantly defend their decision to the suburban culture. God, is this true... My girlfriend and I just moved in to our apartment in OTR (Belmain) and while our parents were down here helping us move, they were constantly commenting on how beautiful the apartment was and how convenient it would be for us to live so close to work and where we frequent. At the same time, they also commented on how our tastes will change once we decide to have a family or get married. When we told them we are interested in suburban life, they asked how we could want to raise a family in the city. Its a struggle even with family.
July 30, 201113 yr Also, anyone who takes the bus, walks, or bikes to work is harassed by coworkers and bosses. So even if it is possible to do one of these, it's probably not a good career move since its casts you as eccentric. By contrast, when I worked in Boston, our place had 20 employees, and exactly one parking space reserved in a building on the next block where the owner parked. So 19 of 20 employees, all of whom were college graduates, walked, biked, took the bus, or took the subway to work. I don't think anyone lived more than five miles away.
July 30, 201113 yr Speaking of rail cults, has anyone heard of the monorail cult? :laugh: Simpsons - Monorail
July 31, 201113 yr Politicians directed the hate of the people toward railroads starting as early as the 1850s.... Jake, all that is true, but most of what you said is history. The Cincinnati metro has a bit of a mess transportation-wise, and a lot of it is a result of the gas tax and federal policy. I am just appalled at some of the proposals coming out of ODOT, such as widening the Brent Spence Bridge, etc I have been to other cities both with and without rail that lacked interstate highways or the foreign equivalent, and there's something to be saif for cities that have done well without highways. What can we do to get out of the mess that we are in now? I've been following the streetcar proposal for all these years now, and am still skeptical that it will actually get built, and even if it does get built, I am skeptical that it will yield the results that it is supposed to have. The problem with the streetcar proposal is not a technical problem in my opinion. The problem is political. Despite all these years of campaigning and lots of hard work, the streetcar supporters have not been able to make the case to suburban residents that the streetcar is going to be a success. I can't tell you how many people have told me that they think the streetcar is the dumbest idea in the world. It's true that most of those people have never been more than a quarter mile from their houses without a car, and most of them have never walked the streets of Over-the-Rhine. I have an alternative idea: why not divide Cincinnati into neighborhoods that each set their own tax rate and each have control over the taxes collected in their own neighborhoods? Essentially, split up Cincinnati into lots of little cities with their own government. Downtown Cincinnati and Over-the-Rhine would then not be building highways and other infrastructure with associated maintenance cost in other neighborhoods, especially in ones outside of the Cincinnati Municipal boundaries! Then the residents of Downtown and Over-the-Rhine would certainly vote for the streetcar, and allocate funds to it, and they will probably also make a lot of other improvements as well. Part of the problem in Cincinnati is that the government is just too big. I'm not one of those anarchists that wants to do away with the government, either. I mean that folks in Mt. Washington shouldn't really have a say in what goes on in Over-the-Rhine, and vice-versa. Socrates theorized that any city with a population over 60,000 was ungovernable; architect Christopher Alexander advocates neighborhoods of about 8000 with local control. I've seen a lot of posts on this board that advocate larger, regional governments. The City of Cincinnati has a large government that is not working. Hamilton County has it's problems as well. OKI seems to do nothing but advocate more highway projects, most of them in sprawling on the periphery. I don't think that Norwood and St. Bernard should become part of Cincinnati. I think it should go the other way: Westwood, Avondale, Northside, Madisonville, etc., should become their own cities. The only reason I can see for larger city governments is to show bigger numbers in the Census. John, didn't you say that Metro Moves passed in the Downtown and Over-the-Rhine precincts?
July 31, 201113 yr Politicians directed the hate of the people toward railroads starting as early as the 1850s.... The problem with the streetcar proposal is not a technical problem in my opinion. The problem is political. Despite all these years of campaigning and lots of hard work, the streetcar supporters have not been able to make the case to suburban residents that the streetcar is going to be a success. I can't tell you how many people have told me that they think the streetcar is the dumbest idea in the world. It's true that most of those people have never been more than a quarter mile from their houses without a car, and most of them have never walked the streets of Over-the-Rhine. That would be our media problem as well. Between the enquirer and 700wlw, the project has been bashed probably 2-3 times per week. Some weeks, like the past one, they bashed it everyday. Smitherman and the rest have been dominating the airwaves and news as of late. I have also run into people who say "This is the dumbest idea ever", "I hope it fails", "Cincinnati is a s*&^hole", "Only in Cincinnati", and "What a horrible waste of money" among other things. However, when I tell them that this amendment will also ban all rail for 10 years without a vote, they absolutely HATE that idea. The fact that NO local media is reporting the truth behind the actual amendment is absurd.
July 31, 201113 yr Well the neighborhood taxation idea is absurd. Downtown and Uptown generate over half of Cincinnati's tax revenue. If the City were reduced just back to its circa 1850 borders, the streets could be paved with gold. Westwood, home of that political kulak Mary Kuhl, is the city's largest neighborhood by population, but generates just 1% of the city's revenue. So Kuhl gets on the radio and calls for Westwood to secede, but the fact is for Westwood to maintain its current level of services, residents would have to pay much more in taxes. >most of what you said is history. "History" is really just the history of the same old rhetorical tricks working over and over and over. It's always a handful of thugs getting in control or harassing those in control by tricking the uneducated public and a small band of educated people trying to convince the masses that they're being tricked. If you really understand Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, they are are all the same man and every huckster out there is using the same rhetorical tricks as they are. All of these a-holes around town are really just little totalitarians waiting to happen, especially if they are espousing some return to halcyon days of old. None of this nonsense with the streetcar would be happening if the local media would engage the facts of the issue, because if they did, there would be no controversy. We bang our heads against the wall here with the facts but the local media doesn't care. There aren't two sides to this issue because nobody who opposes the proposal engages the facts. The second you point out that the opposition doesn't care about facts, they say you're a rail cult. They win every time because the media wants this controversy.
July 31, 201113 yr Thanks for all the healthy debate. This thread has been the best ever in the last day or so.
July 31, 201113 yr I have an alternative idea: why not divide Cincinnati into neighborhoods that each set their own tax rate and each have control over the taxes collected in their own neighborhoods? Essentially, split up Cincinnati into lots of little cities with their own government. Downtown Cincinnati and Over-the-Rhine would then not be building highways and other infrastructure with associated maintenance cost in other neighborhoods, especially in ones outside of the Cincinnati Municipal boundaries! Then the residents of Downtown and Over-the-Rhine would certainly vote for the streetcar, and allocate funds to it, and they will probably also make a lot of other improvements as well. Part of the problem in Cincinnati is that the government is just too big. I'm not one of those anarchists that wants to do away with the government, either. I mean that folks in Mt. Washington shouldn't really have a say in what goes on in Over-the-Rhine, and vice-versa. Socrates theorized that any city with a population over 60,000 was ungovernable; architect Christopher Alexander advocates neighborhoods of about 8000 with local control. Yikes!!! This is the exact opposite of what ever major municipality, think tank, etc. is saying. We're looking to Louisville & Indy as UniGov models, having talks about the massive economic inefficiencies of dozens of smaller governments, hearing our Ohio Sec. of State saying we have to many small municipal governments and they are a huge part of problems statewide, and then we're being told Cincinnati should break up to become even less efficient and to actually increase the government waste? 20 or 30 small municipalities are WAY worse than 1 UniGov when it comes to efficiencies and use of your tax dollars. Even libertarians agree on that. I've seen a lot of posts on this board that advocate larger, regional governments. The City of Cincinnati has a large government that is not working. Hamilton County has it's problems as well. OKI seems to do nothing but advocate more highway projects, most of them in sprawling on the periphery. I don't think that Norwood and St. Bernard should become part of Cincinnati. I think it should go the other way: Westwood, Avondale, Northside, Madisonville, etc., should become their own cities. The only reason I can see for larger city governments is to show bigger numbers in the Census. I'm not sure if this could be less true. It's interesting you talk about budget deficits in Hamilton County but don't explain the real reasons. Our county tax is incredibly low. But, they can't raise it much higher without pissing off the voters because every little municipality that you love has its own massive tax fees. Golf Manor, Silverton, St. Bernard, Norwood, etc. all charge taxes to pay for individual services that could reach much greater efficiencies if shared. These small municipalities have survived for years through massive state subsidies that our new Governor is now repealing. The idea that just because they are only posting $1 million deficits means they aren't that bad is silly. Norwood had been battling a deficit that was almost equal percentage to Cincinnati's. And remember, all these local governments are shrinking anyway. St. Bernard and Silverton are no longer cities- They are now townships because of population loss. Would they each have their own police departments? Their own taxation departments? Their own fire departments and parks departments??? The wasteful bureaucracy is piling up!!!
July 31, 201113 yr Well the neighborhood taxation idea is absurd. Downtown and Uptown generate over half of Cincinnati's tax revenue. If the City were reduced just back to its circa 1850 borders, the streets could be paved with gold. Westwood, home of that political kulak Mary Kuhl, is the city's largest neighborhood by population, but generates just 1% of the city's revenue. So Kuhl gets on the radio and calls for Westwood to secede, but the fact is for Westwood to maintain its current level of services, residents would have to pay much more in taxes. The neighborhood taxation idea is absurd only in the way that it is unlikely to happen. The paper infrastructure that our society has is just as important as the physical infrastructure; old agreements and contracts are hard to change. "If you want to make enemies, try to change something." - Woodrow Wilson. Beyond that, I think you just proved my point. Downtown and uptown generate almost half of Cincinnati's revenue. Westwood is Cincinnati's largest neighborhood by population but generates just 1% of the revenue. So, you could say that downtown and uptown are "subsidizing" Westwood. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if Downtown, Uptown, and a couple other neighborhoods are "subsidizing" the rest of the City of Cincinnati, not to mention subsidizing a lot of the activity outside of the municipal limits. If it were somehow possible for each neighborhood to collect and control its own taxes, downtown and uptown would have ample funding to build the streetcar as well as solve a lot of other problems. One of the ideas debated by the founding fathers was that only people who owned property should be able to vote. A former presidential candidate, Ross Perot, suggested that Americans should vote in shares in proportion to how much they pay in taxes, analagous to the way a members of a corporation vote in proportion to the shares they own. The problem with the streetcar is that suburban residents are voting on what happens in downtown and Over-the-Rhine when they have no real interest in it. "Democracy is a terrible way to run a railroad" - M. King Hubbert None of this nonsense with the streetcar would be happening if the local media would engage the facts of the issue. I don't think that there is any kind of conspiracy, or that the media is to blame. The media is in business to make money, and most of their customers are suburbanites. The media's job is to tell them what they want to hear. If most suburbanites think that the streetcar is the dumbest idea in the world, then the media ought to tell them that. Plus, the media sells an awful lot of automobile advertisements. As for COAST getting a lot of media coverage, that's just the way the system works. The media seeks out stories that are interesting or popular because it helps sell more product. You don't see the media talking about the 95% of the mundane things that the City of Cincinnati does because they are boring. Plus, the average media customer just isn't interested in technical aspects of the streetcar, or ridership numbers, or budgets. Those are nerdy things. The average media customer wants to see human interest stories. So instead of discussing the facts, the media goes after Smitherman.
July 31, 201113 yr Back to the streetcar.... http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2011/07/29/sittenfeld-leads-the-pack-in-cincinnati-council-fundraising/ New Enquirer on council fundraising article shows that 3 of the top 5 candidates for council oppose the Streetcar and only 1 of the two supporters could potentially support the project with votes. 1. Sittenfeld (oppose) 2. Lippert (oppose) 3. Bortz (support, but can't vote) 4. Murray (oppose) 5. Seelbach (suppor, could vote) Please consider giving to a Streetcar supporter today. $25 donations go a long way. Totals include: PG Sittenfeld, a democratic challenger: $190,254 Wayne Lippert, a recently-appointed Republican incumbent: $112,640 Chris Bortz, an incumbent endorsed by the Charter Committe: $55,769 Amy Murray, another appointed Republican incumbent: $56,586 Chris Seelbach, a Democratic challenger: $48,891 Laure Quinlivan, a Democrat running for a second term: $30,495 Catherine Smith Mills, a Republican challenger running for the first time: $23,354 Roxanne Qualls, an incumbent running with the endorsements of the Democrat Party and the Charter Committee: $23,323 Leslie Ghiz, a Republican incumbent: $20,274 Nicholas Hollan, Democratic challenger: $17,135 Wendell Young, Democratic incumbent: $13,457 Yvette Simpson, challenger with Democratic and Charter endorsements: $12,963 Jason Riveiro, a first-time candidate endorsed by the Democratic Party: $1,786.
July 31, 201113 yr "St. Bernard and Silverton are no longer cities- They are now townships because of population loss." Not true. St. Bernard and Silverton are Villages, not Townships. There's a very big difference in what townships are allowed to do versux villages under Ohio state law. All governments in Ohio - Townships, Cities, and Villages - are losing population UNLESS there are new housing units being contructed. This is primarily driven by the fact that household size is shrinking. "We're looking to Louisville & Indy as UniGov models," The UniGov model is somewhat analagous to aggressive annexation by a city such as Columbus. In Cincinnati and Cleveland, aggressive annexation is blocked by all the little municipalities resisting it. In Kentucky and Indiana, state law allowed the central city to "annex" the surrounding suburbs, although they called it "Unigov" instead of "Annexation." Columbus is posting bigger Census numbers because it includes a bigger percentage of the suburbs, but the core area of Columbus isn't really doing any better than the core area of Cincinnati or Cleveland. This discussion of government is drifting away from streetcars, but my original point was that the proposed Cincinnati streetcar, whether it's a good idea or not, is being controlled by the majority vote, and the majority lives in the suburbs. It is unquestionable that the voters of the Downtown, Over-the-Rhine, and Uptown want better transit; however, it is also clear that the voters of Westwood, Mt. Washington, etc., are NOT in favor of the streetcar. Furthermore, even though the suburban parts of the Cincinnati metro outside of the City of Cincinnati do not get to vote on the issue directly, they still have influence. In order to win support for the streetcar, the streetcar supporters need to: 1. Win the support of suburbanites, or 2. Change the system so that the support of the suburbanites isn't needed, i.e., vote by neighborhood. "There are not bad people, but there are bad systems." - Deming
July 31, 201113 yr The way you characterize any part of Cincinnati that is not downtown or OTR as "suburban" is pretty disingenuous. People who live in the other 45 or so neighborhoods of the city don't consider them to be "suburban." If it's 2011 and you truly want to live in the "suburbs," the idea that you would choose to live in Roselawn, Westwood, or Mount Washington instead of Evendale, Grosbeck, or Anderson is absurd. People in the other neighborhoods of the city have a much better appreciation for and understanding of urban issues than you are giving them credit for. After all, if the last streetcar charter amendment had depended on Downtown, OTR, and Clifton to defeat it, it would have passed about 85-15.
July 31, 201113 yr There is not a clear definition of "urban" vs. "suburban." The U.S. Census publishes population numbers based on municipal boundaries. The U.S.G.S. uses a broad definition of "urban land" that includes most suburban areas down to a certain density. To a lot of folks, the word "urban" implies a gritty, deteriorated neighborhood with broken windows and graffiti. Andres Duany uses a strict definition based on form. "Urban Sprawl" is somewhat of a misnomer because most of what is labeled "urban sprawl" could more reasonably be called "suburban sprawl." This is really a topic for another thread, but I prefer a definition based on functionality. If most people get around by walking or transit including taxis, then it is urban. If most people get around by driving personal cars and only walk from the parking lot to the building, then it is suburban. By this definition, most of Cincinnati is suburban. Areas such as Avondale which were build in the automobile era yet still have decent transit and are somewhat walkable are somewhere between urban and suburban, though I would lean suburban because more people drive than take the bus, and Avondale is marred by too many parking lots. I think that for the most part, people who walk and ride transit a lot will tend to vote for transit. These are the people I call urbanites. People who always drive and never ride transit are the suburbanites. There's a group in between that drives sometimes and takes transit sometimes. (For the record, I own a car and use it for primary transportation, but I also ride the bus occasionally.) One of my friends summed up an election issue in this way: "People will vote for an issue if it benefits them, and will vote against it if it doesn't." In school levy elections, it is common for voters who have kids in school and for teachers to vote for the school levy. In the case of the stadiums, a lot of Reds and Bengals fans voted for the stadiums with no regard for any other issue regarding the stadiums. So, I think that for many voters, the streetcar issue really comes down to the question of "Will I use it or not?" If the voter lives in a suburban area and rarely goes downtown, then he will likely not vote for it. Obviously, if the voter lives in Over-the-Rhine, he is more likely to vote for it. The Metro Moves plan, in my opinion, tried to win the support of the suburbs by extending transit into suburban areas; this was a mistake, particularly on the west side. It failed miserably in the suburbs because it just didn't offer convienient service to most suburbanites. One of my friends said, "Yes, I would use it even if it was a little bit slower than driving and even if I had to walk a little bit to get to it. But this plan won't serve me because it doesn't come anywhere near me or where I want to go." The suburbs just don't have the density and are almost completely built around the automobile. There may still be benefits to suburbanites who don't use transit in the form of better development of the city and thus improved revenue to the City of Cincinnati as a whole, but so far the suburbanites have not accepted that argument. So, to reiterate my original point, in order for the streetcar to succeed under the current situation, the streetcar has to actually get built, and to get built it needs to be funded, and to be funded it needs the support of the suburbs. So far, it doesn't have the support of the suburbs. What can be done about that? (It also doesn't have the support of COAST, but in my opinion that isn't the biggest hurdle. COAST is a small but vocal minority that's just causing trouble in order to get attention.)
July 31, 201113 yr I'm going to disagree. Actually, I think the streetcar needs the support of low-income minority groups. These people are the ones getting convinced by the local NAACP that it's going to kick them out of the neighborhoods. They're the ones volunteering for the ballot initiative. The surprising thing is that the streetcar is going to benefit them as well. But they've been convinced it's a gentrifying agent that will displace them from the urban core. While it's true that the streetcar will bring increased investment, I think there can and should be a balance in the neighborhood that should contain a population from all income levels. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
July 31, 201113 yr One of my friends summed up an election issue in this way: "People will vote for an issue if it benefits them, and will vote against it if it doesn't." In school levy elections, it is common for voters who have kids in school and for teachers to vote for the school levy. In the case of the stadiums, a lot of Reds and Bengals fans voted for the stadiums with no regard for any other issue regarding the stadiums. Two things. First, your definition of "urban" above included only Downtown, OTR, and uptown. That is why my response was framed as it was. And honestly, I don't want to get into the whole "how do we define it" thing. I completely disagree with the point I've quoted here, and it goes back to what I said in my previous post. People often--and sometimes repeatedly--vote against things that would otherwise benefit them. And they often vote for things from which they will receive no benefit, on the basis of the principle involved. (I'd recommend reading the book "What's the matter with Kansas?" for an in-depth discussion on this phenomenon as it relates to conservative, lower-income folks in Kansas. It's fascinating.) That is the point I was making. The population of the city proper has decreased dramatically in the past 50 years, as we are all well aware. The people who remain--whether they live in the parts of the city that you would label "urban" or "suburban"--have an understanding and, I would argue, at least some level of commitment to living IN THE CITY and promoting urban interests, even when they don't directly benefit from it. Look at it this way: if what an individual wants is a house of a certain size, with a garage, access to interstates, public schools, etc., they have many more choices outside the city of Cincinnati than in. And the local image of the city is certainly not one of prestige or buzz or coolness. But still, nearly 300,000 people do still live in the city limits, and the vast majority of them do not live in Downtown/OTR/Clifton/Uptown. They live in Pleasant Ridge and Mt. Washington and Westwood and Avondale. IMO, when 300k live in the city and 1.9M live in the suburbs, those living in the city proper are doing so by choice. They want to live in city; they want to invest in and be part of the urban as opposed to the technically suburban. And because people who are in the city have already demonstrated that level of committment to the city (in the face of many, many opportunities to flee for the suburbs), I think that getting them to vote in favor of the streetcar is nowhere near as difficult as you might like it to be. They don't need to see it directly benefit them. They just need to see that it benefits the city that they have chosen to live in. I think that will be enough.
July 31, 201113 yr The fact that Bortz can't vote for the streetcar is a damned shame. Also, the Cincinnati NAACP ought to disband over its opposition to the streetcar. What is wrong with these people? On 6/25, Mary Kuhl posted the following on the Cincy ASS group: "OK all you City if Cincinnati residents...have you signed the petition to get the streetcar on the ballot so WE the people can decide once and for all that we want/don't want it as opposed to the politicians deciding for us! If you are a city resident meaning you live in the actual city of Cincinnati and are a registered voter please let me know here on FB or send me a message on FB and I can get you a petition in the next day. We are getting down to our "crunch time " and we need as many signatures as we can get!!" To Mary "once and for all" must really mean "once every two years"
July 31, 201113 yr The fact that Bortz can't vote for the streetcar is a damned shame. Also, the Cincinnati NAACP ought to disband over its opposition to the streetcar. What is wrong with these people? On 6/25, Mary Kuhl posted the following on the Cincy ASS group: "OK all you City if Cincinnati residents...have you signed the petition to get the streetcar on the ballot so WE the people can decide once and for all that we want/don't want it as opposed to the politicians deciding for us! If you are a city resident meaning you live in the actual city of Cincinnati and are a registered voter please let me know here on FB or send me a message on FB and I can get you a petition in the next day. We are getting down to our "crunch time " and we need as many signatures as we can get!!" To Mary "once and for all" must really mean "once every two years" Mary Kuhl has a history of being in the limelight for all the wrong reasons: http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/content/comments/1221/ http://blackcincinnati.blogspot.com/2005/06/integration-drives-westwood-concern.html http://www.cincinnatibeacon.com/index.php/content/comments/mary_kuhl_a_renegades_letters/
August 1, 201113 yr By the way, on another page it was pointed out I somehow left off Charlie Winburns ~$150,000. Meaning 4 out of 5 of the highest fundraisers oppose the streetcar and the remaining one can't vote for it. It's INCREDIBLY rare for someone who raises a lot of money to lose in Cincinnati. If everyone who reads and comments on this page gave $15 or $25 to a pro-streetcar candidate We could easily raise $1000 for candidates who support the streetcar. Remember, Council is 4 for, 4 against, 1 who must abstain. This means if one pro-streetcar candidate loses a seat (Most likely to be Wendell Young [has lost 2 previous times, was appointed]) The streetcar could potentially be stopped in November.
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