Everyone shares the cost of improving the infrastructure. MSD is a county-managed utility that has a contractual obligation to the city until 2018, and the resources are shared. For instance, Hamilton County as a whole is paying for the daylighting project in South Fairmont, and for the major utility upgrades in Northside, which will reduce sewage overflows into Mill Creek that will ultimately benefit the Ohio River watershed with less pollution. That benefits a wide population in Cincinnati for that project alone. Likewise, if MSD undertakes a major expansion in Butler County to serve a growing population and other developments, then it is under obligations to do so under the contract agreed upon back in the 1960s. But if we begin moving sewer manholes and pipes around for a particular project that serves a very minute population - in comparison to the 230,000+ that MSD currently serves, with no reasoning and with costs that are supposed to be pushed to the ratepayers instead of to the city, then that is a pet project.

 

Likewise, CWW is being smart about it and saying that some of the projects that involve their utilities will be pushed ahead and replaced because of the aging 100+ year old infrastructure, which is projected to be replaced in the near term.

 

These are public utilities John. The streetcar is not. The city cannot underestimate the cost of the project, and then expect the utilities to somehow fork up the $20 million+ gap by shoving it to the ratepayers. That's not going to fly with the Council, nor to any of the supporters of the project. Fact is, the ballot initiative is not what you should be worried about. You should be aiming your sights on the city and the flawed studies and cost analysis that they performed.

 

So what if OTR residents paid for extensions of utilities into the suburbs over the last several decades? That's a sunk cost: the result of a historical decision that cannot be changed.

 

Today, the utilities are being asked to contribute toward the streetcar project, and they are resisting. Can you blame them?

Sherman, your distinction between a "public utility" and a streetcar system needs an argument.  Especially since the larger point you are straining to make is founded on it.

 

We're talking about public dollars being collected and spent by government for the public good.  I fail to see the distinction between a "public utility" and any other infrastructure spending.  They all cost money, they all have benefits, and those benefits are always unevenly distributed among the broad base of tax payers who contribute.

 

Sewer, water, gas, electric are public utilities.

Mass transportation, such as buses, are not.

 

One is a necessity, the other is not.

 

For what it's worth, no one has still answered why the city undervalued -their- investment in the streetcar, and then "expected" the utilities to pick up the tab - when some of it is illegal, per the Courier Journal.

For what it's worth, no one has still answered why the city undervalued -their- investment in the streetcar, and then "expected" the utilities to pick up the tab - when some of it is illegal, per the Courier Journal.

 

I'm wondering how badly the removal of the state (TRAC?) funds will ultimately affect the streetcar system. Done correctly it won't make a big difference. But if the funds really aren't there like Sherman is suggesting then there will be big problems coming down the track (excuse the pun).

Sewer, water, gas, electric, are no more or less public utilities, nor are they any more necessary, than mass transit.  The Amish get along just fine without them, for instance.  Besides, historically streetcars and passenger railroads were under the authority of the Public Utilities Commission.  To some extent they may still be, but I'm not sure how the legality has changed in more recent years.  Regardless, there's nothing to suggest that mass transit, which has infrastructure and operator, and provides services to the public, is any less of a public utility than sewer, water, gas, electric, telecommunications, or postal services. 

I refuse to believe that the nature of public utilities in downtown and OTR is so exotic as to be singularly responsible for this gross inflation of cost over the city's original estimate. 

 

I refuse to believe that the nature of public utilities in downtown and OTR is so exotic as to be singularly responsible for this gross inflation of cost over the city's original estimate. 

 

 

Exactly.  There's no way relocating a few utilities over such a short distance is really going to run a $30 million tab.  The utility companies are inflating this number because this is already a hot issue.  Relocating utilities for public or private developments is something the companies routinely pay for themselves, the difference here is that they think they can weasel out of it this time because the streetcar has such a vocal opposition. 

Here's the problem: Duke is requiring much more work to be done than is really necessary, so the cost is higher than estimates for a normal streetcar project. On the other hand, I suspect that Duke is right now moving utilities for a dozen roadway projects around the region without charging the jurisdiction. Why is the streetcar different?

 

Seems like everywhere I've gone in Cincinnati over the last couple of years eventually has had yellow gas piping installed. There appears to be no demand by homeowners to have the gas mains in their neighborhoods replaced, so why can't Duke shift some of those resources to OTR and Downtown?

 

Duke wins two ways here: They avoid investing capital on services that probably need to be replaced anyway. And when OTR and the upper floors of obsolete downtown office buildings fill up with new residents using power at non-peak times, they willl have a second windfall.

 

 

There's no demand by homeowners to have the gas mains replaced, but there is an EPA mandate to do it.  Gas main breaks are very dangerous after all, and Duke has apparently not been proactive enough about replacing old gas mains on their own. 

 

Still, things like this should be looked at as opportunities.  Old gas and water mains need to be replaced anyway.  Mucking with the sewers is a chance to separate some of the storm and sanitary lines.  If there aren't already fiber optics installed throughout OTR, Cincinnati Bell can get on that while their conduits are being affected.  It's a chance to do new and better paving and street lighting.  It's no different than Duke having to move utility poles for road projects.  Yes it's work, but then those are brand new poles and wires and transformers that won't need maintenance for a long time compared to the old ones.  Even aside from that, all these utilities are in the street only with permission from the City in the first place.  They need to be good citizens and suck it up. 

 

Traditionally, the rule of utilities occupying street right-of-way is first come, first served. In the case of the streetcar, the streetcar project cannot force other utilities to move at their own expense.

 

John, you ask why is the streetcar different from road widening projects. The answer is that under Ohio law, utilities are required to relocate for road projects, but streetcars have the same legal status as any other utility. 

 

John - you say that Duke will win when OTR gets redeveloped. The assumption that OTR actually will get redeveloped is not held by everyone, and apparently not by Duke.

 

John - you ask why Duke doesn't take the opportunity to replace gas mains anyway, since they are doing it in other neighborhoods. I don't know what condition the gas mains in the streetcar area are in - chances are that they may have been replaced recently. I can only assume that Duke has established priorities and is replacing mains in other neighborhoods for a reason.

 

Jake, the nature of utilities in downtown and OTR really is that exotic. Here's what utilities I know about off the top of my head:

 

TWO water systems - normal pressure and high pressure to serve skyscrapers.

Chilled water for A/C

MSD sewers, most of them large combined sewers up to 6 feet diameter.

Duke gas mains - many of them probably old steel mains that are more prone to rupturing than more modern plastic ones

Duke underground electric

City of Cincinnati underground traffic - signal loops embedded in the street and connecting lines

Cincinnati Bell underground telephone

At least 5 different regional fiber optic lines that converge downtown

A number of local fiber optic and communication utilities that serve downtown and the local market.

A hodgepodge of underground tunnels including utility tunnels, old brewery tunnels, the subway, etc., which may not be in the direct line of the streetcar but still add congestion to the mix and make utility relocation difficult. 

Finally, there are historic streetcar lines still in the street that need to be removed. This costs money, too.

 

I don't know what Portland or any other place has to deal with, but downtown Cincinnati and OTR really is one of the toughest places to deal with utilities in the whole country. Everyone who works in the industry could see this coming. The city's original estimate was simply too low - and then when they were under pressure to keep the cost down, they cut the utility budget even farther.

 

Jjakucyk - Cities do NOT have the power to deny utilities access to the public right of way. They are there with permission from the State of Ohio, not the City of Cincinnati. The law reads as follows.

 

Ohio Revised Code 4939.04 (A)(1) "A municipal corporation shall provide public utilities or cable operators with open, comparable, nondiscriminatory, and competitively neutral access to its public ways."

 

Ram - This utility work can EASILY get to $30 million. That's no joke.

 

 

 

 

Where council candidates stand: Streetcar

 

Ha! PG-13 Finally makes a statement

 

P.G. Sittenfeld: The city's focus right now needs to be on basic services ahead of streetcars, but the reality is, this project is now in the hands of the voters, and I will respect the direction they give us in November.

 

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110904/NEWS0108/109040309/Where-council-candidates-stand-Streetcar

 

This seems about right ...

 

STREETCAR SUPPORTERS:

 

Roxanne Qualls

Laure Quinlivan

Cecil Thomas

Wendell Young

Nicholas Hollan

Kevin Flynn

Kathy Atkinson

Jason Riveiro

Yvette Simpson

Chris Seelbach

 

STREETCAR OPPONENTS:

 

Charlie Winburn

Wayne Lippert

P.G. Sittenfeld

Amy Murray

Mike Allen

Leslie Ghiz

Catherine Smith Mills

Pat McCollum

Chris Smitherman

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18957.13860.html#ixzz1X1BekAy9

Anyone ask what does P&G thinks of the streetcar??

John, you forgot Sandra Noble

OCtoCincy & OTR: I've expressed this multiple times, along with other concerns, and have been shot down by the very same folks. The same ones who said we'd be at groundbreaking last year, last month, this year and are now mum mainly because the city is trying to force the utilities to pay up to cover the costs of the streetcar project the city did not budget for. The city, in essence, screwed up and are pushing the ratepayers - those in the outskirts of Hamilton County, those in Northside, those in Western Hills and elsewhere to pay up for the streetcar project that runs through the central business district and Over-the-Rhine.

 

A better solution is to create a special assessment for those that live in those two neighborhoods within a specific radius of the streetcar, and levy the charges to their respective bills. I should not have to have my electric rates jacked up further, or my water bill, et. al. to pay for a project that does not benefit my property. How does improving the underground power lines in downtown improve upon my property that I am paying for? Hell, it'd be nice in Northside to go by a week without having the power go out (3 times my power has gone out in 3 weeks).

 

You're using the anti-streetcar argument for the subject of taxation, effectively staging an anti-streetcar argument because it doesn't personally serve your neighborhood and cook you dinner!  If Cincinnati wants to go regional with its tax structure, the Eastside would build toll roads and checkpoints to protect its Kingdom from the rest of the cesspool of a city we would have left.  The entire reason OTR needs so much special attention and investment is the lack of investment it has seen float away to other communities in the city for the last 60 years.

 

Can't believe you really tried to make that argument.

John, you forgot Sandra Noble

 

Can't figure out if she's for it or against it. Over the next few months, I'm sure we'll learn.

>create a special assessment for those that live in those two neighborhoods

 

Well TIF funds are being directed to the streetcar.  So COAST should be happy that increased property tax revenue in OTR can only pay off streetcar bonds, not whatever boondoggle they identify next. 

 

Assessment zones are a bad idea because they end up motivating the actual alignment of a line.  Tons of parkways were built across the US in the 1910's and 1920's because cities were not permitted by state law to tax themselves to build new roads.  So they formed Park Commissions that were enabled under state law to levee their own taxes to back bonds for parkway construction.  The parkways often were built with odd alignments that didn't simply connect points A and B in order to abut valuable properties that then could be assessed.  This almost happened in Cincinnati when it was first proposed to have Central Parkway meander pointlessly down the Cheapside canal spur to 8th St. (where the Blue Wizp Jazz Club is now).  This pointless 2 or 3 block extension could have helped pay for Parkway construction through the valueless land between Ludlow Avenue and Mitchell Avenue. 

 

Transit assessment zones present a huge problem in the Uptown area, since non-profits (UC, Hospitals) control so much of the land, and the streetcar is intended to serve those things directly.  It's impossible to levee a property tax assessment against an entity which already pays zero property tax. 

 

COAST can whine all they want about cities starting income taxes after WWII, but is the growth of these non-profits that was part of what forced them to do it.  Cities simply cannot be expected to provide infrastructure for these huge operations without some kind of direct return. 

 

Chris Finney on 700WLW right now...saying there will be a cost overrun of $20-40 million on Phase 1.

 

Host saying that streetcar needs 70,000 daily riders to be self-sufficient. 

 

Finney suggesting that there will be a tax increase to cover streetcar operations.

 

Now Chris Finney saying $95 million project will cost $180 million.

 

Host says nobody will ride the streetcar in the cold.

 

Host says you can walk the distance in the same amount of time as the streetcar.

 

Finney says it's a Disney ride.

 

John, you forgot Sandra Noble

 

Can't figure out if she's for it or against it. Over the next few months, I'm sure we'll learn.

 

She's a joke candidate, so her position doesn't really matter.  Remember, she ran against the mayor in 2009 and she ran for Congress in DC in 2010 while suing the "Stolen United States of America" for $994 Trillion in reparations.

 

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/Norton-Challenger-Seeks-994-Trillion-In-Lawsuit-105177494.html

John, you forgot Sandra Noble

 

Can't figure out if she's for it or against it. Over the next few months, I'm sure we'll learn.

 

She's a joke candidate, so her position doesn't really matter.  Remember, she ran against the mayor in 2009 and she ran for Congress in DC in 2010 while suing the "Stolen United States of America" for $994 Trillion in reparations.

 

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/Norton-Challenger-Seeks-994-Trillion-In-Lawsuit-105177494.html

 

She actually made it on the ballot...again?  How the heck did she get her signatures?

 

She's a joke candidate, so her position doesn't really matter.  Remember, she ran against the mayor in 2009 and she ran for Congress in DC in 2010 while suing the "Stolen United States of America" for $994 Trillion in reparations.

 

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/Norton-Challenger-Seeks-994-Trillion-In-Lawsuit-105177494.html

 

She actually made it on the ballot...again?  How the heck did she get her signatures?

 

She turned in over 2500 (more than any other candidate) but only just over 500 were valid, the lowest validity of any candidate.  With such horrible validity as that, it's likely she either faked 2500 and got 500 scribbly signatures right, or just stood for days and days asking anyone she saw for a signature. For perspective. Most candidates turn in 800-900 and get 500 valid.  Smitherman turned in ~650 and got 500, by far, one of the best validity rates of anyone.

Chris Finney on 700WLW right now...saying there will be a cost overrun of $20-40 million on Phase 1.

 

Host saying that streetcar needs 70,000 daily riders to be self-sufficient. 

 

Finney suggesting that there will be a tax increase to cover streetcar operations.

 

Now Chris Finney saying $95 million project will cost $180 million.

 

Host says nobody will ride the streetcar in the cold.

 

Host says you can walk the distance in the same amount of time as the streetcar.

 

Finney says it's a Disney ride.

 

 

I think I've said this before...if the Enquirer and 700WLW were to just magically disappear forever Cincinnati would instantly become 100% better place to live.  That station is a complete joke and is probably responsible for 98% of the ignorance people have in this city about politics and things like this project.

Then stop listening/reading!

And stop obsessing about it on here.

Jake Mecklenborg and some others here may seem to overreact to the COASTers, but fighting fire with fire is often the best strategy when dealing with the deep tribal identities that lead many streetcar opponents to seize on an issue with which they have absolutely no self-interest and involving places they couldn't find with a GPS. It is unquestionably unpleasant to have to lower ourselves to their level, but bullies only respect power and pushing back just as hard as they do is the only thing that will push then out of the way and allow the space for a better discussion about streetcars, otr and cincinnati overall to happen. I think that is what they are trying to do. I myself wade into the cincinnati.com and wkrc forums to mock, belittle, and generally tear apart the comments of COASTers and suburban attack dogs. It isn't fun, but it does seem to undermine the more extreme wackos and encourage at least some more reasonable comments. The Answer to 'bad' speech isn't censorship or even ignorance, it is crowding it out with 'good' speech and if we have to kneecap a few thugs in a kind of self-defense to allow that to happen, it is a positive contribution to the civic life of Cincinnati.

Well look at it from this perspective: today, the Cincinnati Enquirer featured two nearly identical letter to the editors on the streetcar. Both were related to the recent article about the fire station in OTR receiving bullet proof glass due to an increasing crime rate in that general location - or so they say. Who knows. But within two days of that article came two not-from-Cincinnati letters to the editor, both of them making references to adding bullet proof glass to the streetcar.

 

This is the same newspaper that once wrote that the streetcar won't be a moving target for a revitalizing OTR with a lowering crime rate, but at the same time, enable that misconception with selective editing.

 

I don't think it really serves anyone anything to post those junk pieces. We all know Smitherman will shout out whatever number comes out his ass, and we all know that the Enquirer will print mistruths, like Horstman walking practically faster than any runner along the streetcar route. And those media outlets know they are junk pieces, but it brings in readers and potentially more revenue, so why not? They are already losing out on readership, and the only thing boosting their bottom line is hit pieces and coupon inserts.

Chris Finney on 700WLW right now...saying there will be a cost overrun of $20-40 million on Phase 1.

 

Host saying that streetcar needs 70,000 daily riders to be self-sufficient. 

 

Finney suggesting that there will be a tax increase to cover streetcar operations.

 

Now Chris Finney saying $95 million project will cost $180 million.

 

Host says nobody will ride the streetcar in the cold.

 

Host says you can walk the distance in the same amount of time as the streetcar.

 

Finney says it's a Disney ride.

 

 

I think I've said this before...if the Enquirer and 700WLW were to just magically disappear forever Cincinnati would instantly become 100% better place to live.  That station is a complete joke and is probably responsible for 98% of the ignorance people have in this city about politics and things like this project.

 

I would argue that the unfair society that is Cincinnati has proliferated ignorance both formal and casual in the city and the suburbs.  Poor city schools and outright exhaustion from being born and raised in the city limits accounts for much of the ignorance and lack of faith regarding rail transit.  Poverty; the inability to travel and experience other cities is also a factor.  I would chalk up most of the rest to Cincinnati's economic segregation and the fact that many of those people in those financially stable enclaves of the Eastside and the northern suburbs already experience day-to-day life on a coveted level, thus little motivation to adjust that lifestyle.

Monzel was on the radio this morning vowing that "county money" via the MSD would not be spent on this project.  I'm not sure that the county commissioners have any say whatsoever over the comings and goings of the MSD.  Nevertheless, look for them to milk this non-story for everything it's worth. 

 

Also, Monday night Finney was complaining that this story has been "buried", whining about how it came out on a Friday before a holiday weekend. 

Watching a Budget & Finance meeting on CitiCable last night. Bortz recused imself on some issue and the Windbag damn near shot out of his seat, his voice jumped up an octave, "Does this have anything to do with the streetcar ?!?".

jeezelouise.....

the answer was no.

 

BTW, the inability of city administrators to give straight answers is really outrageous.

I saw the city is accepting proposals for the streetcar vehicles themselves

 

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/city-accepting-proposals-for-streetcar-vehicle/

Monzel was on the radio this morning vowing that "county money" via the MSD would not be spent on this project.  I'm not sure that the county commissioners have any say whatsoever over the comings and goings of the MSD.  Nevertheless, look for them to milk this non-story for everything it's worth. 

 

Hamilton County Commissioners have to approve the budget for every Capital Improvements Project that MSD spends money on.

 

Is this a line item approval process, or would this work simply be part of an annual budget?  Again, I suspect that the county commissioners and others got these utilities people to blow this hot air with the promise of future political favors.  There's simply no way that the city was blindsided by this news, and there's no way that they would have progressed things to this point with the knowledge that the county could block it in this backhanded way.

 

Again, look at how silly this whole situation is -- from the very beginning the City of Cincinnati knew it would be at war with its county and never even attempted to have any county capital money allocated to the project.  The commissioners are doing this because the anti-city lies win suburban votes, not because they actually oppose the streetcar or the city, because on a personal level they don't.  Look at how Monzel apologized to suburban voters in his commissioner race -- he acted embarrassed to have served on city council, because he was a "son of the suburbs".  His campaign went so far as to attack Jim Tarbell for his enthusiasm for the city. 

 

Yesterday I shot a quick video of London's Jubilee Line train entering and leaving Westminster station. I'd kill for the streetcar to have the same traction motors. :D

 

Yesterday I shot a quick video of London's Jubilee Line train entering and leaving Westminster station. I'd kill for the streetcar to have the same traction motors. :D

 

 

That is sexy.

Since the Enquirer never followed up on their Streetcar Word Association Game, I took the liberty:

 

Queen City Discovery: "Let's Play the Streetcar Word Association Game."

http://bit.ly/nvc6bU

Yesterday I shot a quick video of London's Jubilee Line train entering and leaving Westminster station. I'd kill for the streetcar to have the same traction motors. :D

 

 

That is sexy.

 

Christ, this city is sooo behind!

Yesterday I shot a quick video of London's Jubilee Line train entering and leaving Westminster station. I'd kill for the streetcar to have the same traction motors. :D

 

 

That is sexy.

 

Christ, this city is sooo behind!

 

Behind the times and old fashioned...Vain even.

Yesterday I shot a quick video of London's Jubilee Line train entering and leaving Westminster station. I'd kill for the streetcar to have the same traction motors. :D

 

 

That is sexy.

 

Christ, this city is sooo behind!

Come on now. It's London.

Yep, London with 2,000 years of HISTORY. A young city like Cincinnati should be spry, nimble, progressive, opportunistic, energetic! So why is the 223-year-old city acting tired and lethargic like a 2,000-year-old city? I suspect it's because London has more of a worldview than Cincy.

Cincinnati is not behind, vain, old or tired.

 

It's a failed experiment, like most other American cities.

Rail is socialist!!! Because even if you're rich, you could stand next to a poor person, and that sort of equality just won't fly here  in Uhmurrica! Freedom says I can drive my $80,000 Mercedes SLK next to your $3,000 used 1992 Toyota and you can't touch me.  In fact, IF you try to touch my car with yours, I can sue you! I can't sue someone for bumping up against me in a crowded train. Go Freedom!

 

 

 

- Is that the "failed experiment" you were talking about? Because I don't think enough people have realized it failed.

How the H3LL is Cincinnati a failed experiment!?!  Last I checked Cincinnati was a fully functioning, unique, and solid city that happens to be at the center of the United States socially and politically.  Things don't happen here easily because we've got a LOT of forces coming from different directions.  Progressing anything in this city is infuriating because everyone is trying to have a say in every topic.  There is certainly NOT a lack of engagement from the citizens, nor is there a profound sense of apathy common is cities that dying or becoming irrelevant.  The problem is that TOO MANY people care about Cincy. 

 

I know we're all getting frustrated with the streetcar, but the delays are not the end of the world.  Look at the number of American cities that have streetcars...then look at the number that don't.  WE ARE NOT BEHIND...as a city.  (We are as a country, but that's a different topic.)  As other places boom and bust, Cincinnati is steadily moving forward.  That's the way things happen here.  We should be proud of that.

Wish someone would delete the past 5 or 6 posts...not productive & off-topic!

Another article today on the Enquirer's site entitled "read the streetcar, other city referenda"  They try to make it sound as if there's some sort of debate over what the anti rail ballot initiative will do if its passed.  I wrote a letter to the editor explaining how clearly the ballot measure will effectively block all and any form of rail in this city for a generation.  Let's see if they publish it.  The last 2 letters I wrote were never published, yet multiple anti-streetcar letters are published weekly...

How the H3LL is Cincinnati a failed experiment!?!  Last I checked Cincinnati was a fully functioning, unique, and solid city that happens to be at the center of the United States socially and politically.  Things don't happen here easily because we've got a LOT of forces coming from different directions.  Progressing anything in this city is infuriating because everyone is trying to have a say in every topic.  There is certainly NOT a lack of engagement from the citizens, nor is there a profound sense of apathy common is cities that dying or becoming irrelevant.  The problem is that TOO MANY people care about Cincy. 

 

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Highway vs. rail experiment.  Most American Cities have chosen highway over rail while european cities have chosen rail.  That really is the simplest argument.  Anti-streetcar/rail people say there is no need for "expensive" rail because everyone can drive in Cincinnati and it's cheap-  They ignore the massive expenses Cincinnati government has spent on Parking structures, subsidized parking, etc. 

 

The Streetcar is the first, small step towards reversing that trend and creating a mixed-tranist network in our City.  He wasn't saying Cincinnati is a failed city-- but that the model of highway only with minimal transit is a failed experiment.

Cincinnati did not "choose" highways.  Like everywhere else, they were forced down our throat.  There hasn't been a vote on any road project whatsoever since 1956, and locals never voted to build the expressways in the configuration they took. 

Anti-streetcar/rail people say there is no need for "expensive" rail because everyone can drive in Cincinnati and it's cheap-  They ignore the massive expenses Cincinnati government has spent on Parking structures, subsidized parking, etc. 

 

Or that more than one in five households in Cincinnati has no car. And many more households have multiple wage earners who must share one car, including to reach suburban jobs. The best ways to give them opportunities isn't just to give them more options, but to offer a higher-density, fixed-route transit system where real estate investors will have the confidence in providing opportunities at a more substantial scale. The rail station won't move any more than a highway interchange. But a bus stop can be a leaf in the wind.

Great points Jake, as always. More importantly, many are totally unaware of them and are completely blind to the historical perspective. Wading into the various local online forums and simply putting these points out there would be valuable. Your knowledge of cincinnati history and your recent book on the subway give you some credibility on these issues that many of us here don't have. I know it isn't pleasant to confront the many willfully ignorant and self-serving statements on those forums, but if there is anyone wavering on this in cincinnati, your comments could make the difference as can pointing out the self-serving nature of many of those comments when looked at historically. The fact that most opponents aren't even cincinnatians is probably the main point we have to make over and over again. The issue is going to fail, but we have to work to make sure if fails by as much as possible to pull the rug out from under the COASTers.

Anyone at the Council session today?

 

Just saw these on Twitter:

 

3:40 Debate over wording of streetcar ballot measure. Winburn wants it rewritten, but deadline to elex bd is tomorrow

via Jane Prendergast

 

3:47 Council postponed original streetcar ballot language. Rewriting to include "streetcar." Bd of Elex, Secy of State approval final language

via Jane Prendergast

 

3:51 Council recessed 10 mins to wait for rewritten streetcar ballot language

via Jane Prendergast