They have to finish negotiating on utility relocation. The RFP on the streetcar vehicles have already been sent out so we may see who's building the vehicles in the next few months. Once the utility work starts things should pick up.

To address the need for council support: It takes a super-majority to override the mayor. Basically, if a vote was held to stop the streetcar on a council level it would be split 4-4 with Bortz abstaining. If six opponents of the streetcar are elected next week, they can basically vote to stop it and there's not much that can be done about it.

 

Edit: Yeah what LIG said!  :laugh:

That's true in the very short term, but if 5 opponents/non-supporters are elected next week, any funding to Clifton/the Banks can be stopped.  We need 5 or 6 streetcar supporters on Council after this election and after the next (roughly 4 years of construction & development time guaranteed to be backed by a pro-streetcar majority).

THESE CANDIDATES SUPPORT THE CINCINNATI STREETCAR:

 

 

 

Wendell Young

 

Kevin Flynn

 

Chris Seelbach

 

Yvette Simpson

 

Laure Quinlivan

 

Cecil Thomas

 

Roxanne Qualls

 

Nicholas Hollan

 

Jason Riveiro

 

Kathy Atkinson

 

 

 

 

 

THESE CANDIDATES OPPOSE THE CINCINNATI STREETCAR:

 

 

 

Wayne Lippert

 

Amy Murray

 

Mike Allen

 

Chris Smitherman

 

Leslie Ghiz

 

Charlie Winburn

 

Catherine Smith Mills

 

Particia McCollum

 

 

THESE CANDIDATES SUPPORT THE CINCINNATI STREETCAR:

 

 

 

Wendell Young

 

Kevin Flynn

 

Chris Seelbach

 

Yvette Simpson

 

Laure Quinlivan

 

Cecil Thomas

 

Roxanne Qualls

 

Nicholas Hollan

 

Jason Riveiro

 

Kathy Atkinson

 

 

 

 

 

THESE CANDIDATES OPPOSE THE CINCINNATI STREETCAR:

 

 

 

Wayne Lippert

 

Amy Murray

 

Mike Allen

 

Chris Smitherman

 

Leslie Ghiz

 

Charlie Winburn

 

Catherine Smith Mills

 

Particia McCollum

 

 

Cincinnati Herald opposes Issue 48 (and the streetcar)

Endorses 5 council supporters & 4 opponents

http://www.thecincinnatiherald.com/news/2011-11-05/News/The_Cincinnati_Heralds_Ballot.html

Cincinnati Herald opposes Issue 48 (and the streetcar)

Endorses 5 council supporters & 4 opponents

http://www.thecincinnatiherald.com/news/2011-11-05/News/The_Cincinnati_Heralds_Ballot.html

 

Honestly, I don't care where you stand on issues, even the streetcar, but how in the world can anyone who is semi-intelligent endorse Smitherman?  I'm not sure I've ever read the Cincinnati Herald so I don't know much about them, but endorsing Smitherman tells me they haven't been paying attention to anything that has been going on in the city.

Cincinnati Herald is the "longest-running African-American newspaper in Cincinnati."

Their endorsement process is semi-controversial. They STRONGLY suggest you buy ads, and it's rumored that the people who buy ads get endorsed and those that don't, don't.

 

I am happy that they oppose Issue 48 though!

I would guess the president of the NAACP has a fairly automatic endorsement from the Herald. They might be stirring up trouble for themselves, otherwise.

Cincinnati Herald is the "longest-running African-American newspaper in Cincinnati."

 

Editor there is probably getting an earful of Smitherman right now

 

 

By the way, John Schneider wrote a great guest column in todays Enquirer

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111104/EDIT02/111040368/Guest-column-Don-t-strangle-light-rail?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

 

EDIT:  Forgot about Jake Mecklenborg, Chris Finney, and Mark Schmidt's podcast here:

http://cincinnatiansforprogress.com/audio/Mark_Schmidt_on_WDJO.mp3

Cincinnati Herald is the "longest-running African-American newspaper in Cincinnati."

 

Editor there is probably getting an earful of Smitherman right now

 

 

I doubt it- Smitherman is VERY popular in the African American Community- He will probably place 3rd or 4th overall in AA neighborhoods.  East side neighborhoods won't trust him, so it comes down to west side neighborhoods.  If enough westsiders are so anti-streetcar that they vote for Smitherman, he COULD win.  As a generalization, you need to place in the top 5 of 2 of the three voting blocks (east side, westside and African American (which is generally West End, OTR, Avondale, North Avondale, Walnut Hills, Bond Hill & Roselawn, parts of college hill and others) to win, or in the lower ranks 6-9 in all three. 

 

The vote in the city is roughly 39% east side, 32% westside, 29% african american in a non-mayoral year.

LOCAL BRANCH CONFLICTS WITH NAACP PRO-RAIL POLICY

 

Today, Cincinnatians for Progress began running a  radio spot featuring former Cincinnati NAACP president Dr. Milton Hinton urging voters to reject Issue 48 and embrace the pro-rail position of the national organization.

 

In the spot, running on WMJO-FM, WIZF-FM and WDBZ-AM, Dr. Hinton notes that the national organization has “called on members and local branches to support – and I quote – 'passenger rail options, including streetcars, light rail and high speed intercity passenger rail services.' ” 

 

Dr. Hinton, who served three terms as president of the Cincinnati NAACP chapter, recorded the radio ad because the position of the national NAACP has been overlooked and misunderstood in the Issue 48 debate.

 

The Cincinnati Chapter of the NAACP has ignored the national policy, in place since 2009, and supports Issue 48.

 

 

CINCINNATI HERALD ENDORSES NO ON ISSUE 48

 

Also on Friday, The Cincinnati Herald today urged its readers to vote “NO” on Issue 48, saying the anti-rail charter amendment would hurt the city's prospects for growth. “"We could lose jobs, and opportunities to develop our city,” the newspaper said in its ballot guide.

 

The award-winning newspaper serving the African-American community also endorsed pro-rail City Council candidates Kevin Flynn, Jason Riveiro, Yvette Simpson, P.G. Sittenfeld, Cecil Thomas and Wendell Young.

 

Cincinnatians for Progress thanks both Dr. Hinton and The Cincinnati Herald for  supporting rail options that benefit every part of the city through economic development, new jobs and more resources for city services.

 

John's guest column today was chopped down and shoved in the bottom right corner of the editorial page, but it's important, because it's probably the first mention of light rail being incorporated into the I-75 rebuild (and I-71).  And actually, it's just about the first mention of the I-75 rebuild, despite the fact that it's physically under way.

Okay, I have to chime in on something here. I watched the Newsmakers and listened to Mark Schmidt and I have to suggest something. Now this is something that I wish all progressives would do on both the national and local level. Call people out. When someone tells a lie don't just move on to the next question but point out the lie and destroy it. Make the liar look like a fool. Conservatives have been able to lie at will without fear of being called out and made to look stupid for too long.

 

For instance, in the Newsmakers episode. The moment Louis said that the streetcar would cost $400 million he should have been called a bald-faced liar and made to look foolish. Ask them why they hate Cincinnati (worked for the other side with the "you hate America), call them out! Progressives need to be a little more intense about things and rely less on being the reasonable adults.

^ I doubt we'll ever be hearing from Stephan Louis again.

^ I doubt we'll ever be hearing from Stephan Louis again.

 

oh? Do tell....

Mark Miller is absolutely losing his mind on twitter.  Taunting C4P and other streetcar supporters directly, and upping the post count to around 40-50 per day.

 

The desperation is at extreme levels with him right now

 

Does this guy have a job?  Or a life?

Okay, I have to chime in on something here. I watched the Newsmakers and listened to Mark Schmidt and I have to suggest something. Now this is something that I wish all progressives would do on both the national and local level. Call people out. When someone tells a lie don't just move on to the next question but point out the lie and destroy it. Make the liar look like a fool. Conservatives have been able to lie at will without fear of being called out and made to look stupid for too long.

 

For instance, in the Newsmakers episode. The moment Louis said that the streetcar would cost $400 million he should have been called a bald-faced liar and made to look foolish. Ask them why they hate Cincinnati (worked for the other side with the "you hate America), call them out! Progressives need to be a little more intense about things and rely less on being the reasonable adults.

 

That is the problem with the media in general these days.  The media is not doing their job if they simply share the commentary of both sides of an issue.  Their job is to call people out when they get the facts wrong.  "Tom Luken claims the streetcar will cost $3-4 billion, but the actual cost is $92 million, meaning Tom Luken exaggerated the cost of the project 40x."

Okay, I have to chime in on something here. I watched the Newsmakers and listened to Mark Schmidt and I have to suggest something. Now this is something that I wish all progressives would do on both the national and local level. Call people out. When someone tells a lie don't just move on to the next question but point out the lie and destroy it. Make the liar look like a fool. Conservatives have been able to lie at will without fear of being called out and made to look stupid for too long.

 

For instance, in the Newsmakers episode. The moment Louis said that the streetcar would cost $400 million he should have been called a bald-faced liar and made to look foolish. Ask them why they hate Cincinnati (worked for the other side with the "you hate America), call them out! Progressives need to be a little more intense about things and rely less on being the reasonable adults.

 

That is the problem with the media in general these days.  The media is not doing their job if they simply share the commentary of both sides of an issue.  Their job is to call people out when they get the facts wrong.  "Tom Luken claims the streetcar will cost $3-4 billion, but the actual cost is $92 million, meaning Tom Luken exaggerated the cost of the project 40x."

 

I agree that the media isn't doing its job. I used to work in the media now work in media/public relations. CFP is doing a good job but the issue I have is that they/we are answering the media's failures by trying to be the reasonable people. We, unfortunately, live in a soundbite/bumper sticker culture. It's amazing how far simply saying something is not true will go. Two words with a ton of power...Not True.

 

I also got to thinking about something the other day. When my little brother was a baby his first word was cat. He'd point at everything as say "Cat!". I'm reminded of that when I head COASTers saying "Boondoggle" towards everything.

That's the root of the problem, not just in Cincinnati but nationally as well. The media is so obsessed with being "objective" that they've reduced journalism to a he-said / she-said litany of false equivalencies. If a hundred people are at a meeting and 99 of them think the earth is round while one person insists the earth is flat, each side of the "debate" is given equal time and equal credibility by the reporter covering the event, and there is almost never any real fact-checking.

I also got to thinking about something the other day. When my little brother was a baby his first word was cat. He'd point at everything as say "Cat!". I'm reminded of that when I head COASTers saying "Boondoggle" towards everything.

 

When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I'm wondering if anyone finds it relevant that COAST received a donation from the Valentine One radar detectors company a few years ago, during COAST's crusade against red light cameras. I don't know if they've received additional donations from the company, but it certainly would explain why COAST will do everything in their power to crush transit while remaining silent about the billions being spent on highway projects in the region.

Supposedly Finney's law firm gets most of its business from suburban developers. That would go a long way toward explaining his vested interest in seeing the city fail. In his sick mind, it's a zero-sum game in which anything good that happens in the city must necessarily come at the expense of the suburbs. The developers make their money by pandering to fear and racism, which has been driving whites out of urban cores for 60 years. Now that the trend is reversing and the suburbs are increasingly becoming the place where poor minorities are settling, they're desperate and running scared. Their entire societal model is collapsing around them.

 

It's never been about the money being used to build the streetcar. The streetcar's cost merely makes a convenient red herring for people too stupid or too lazy to do any critical thinking. In reality, it's a culture war against the city with strong racial overtones, and it's a culture war in which COAST is a mercenary outfit. Just look at COAST's tweets about the streetcar. How many of them are about the actual cost of construction or operation? Very few. Most of them are rants about "those people" (read: blacks, minorities, and poor people) who ride public transit. Nobody goes apeshit over a dry fiscal debate about infrastructure spending, but watch what happens when there's even a remote possibility that a black family might find it easier to move in next door.

 

Smitherman, for his part, is perfectly happy to play along. A Detroit-style metropolis of affluent white suburbs surrounding a corrupt and dysfunctional urban core is perfectly fine with both COAST and Smitherman, as such a model gives each of them a built-in political constituency. What drives them absolutely apeshit, though, is the idea of mass transit that allows blacks to live in the suburbs or whites to move into the urban core. That flies in the face of "the way things are supposed to be", and sends the racist Archie Bunker types like COAST and opportunistic political whores like Smitherman into a rage.

I'm wondering if anyone finds it relevant that COAST received a donation from the Valentine One radar detectors company a few years ago, during COAST's crusade against red light cameras. I don't know if they've received additional donations from the company, but it certainly would explain why COAST will do everything in their power to crush transit while remaining silent about the billions being spent on highway projects in the region.

 

Or it could be that Valentine One likes COAST's message, so they support them. It's a two-way street, and causation can go either way.

 

It's like when streetcar opponents won't recognize studies showing the benefits of the streetcar, on the grounds that they were done by firms prone to supporting rail transit.

 

Or to say someone supports X because their job has to do with X, so they gain financially. Well, maybe they picked their job because it aligns with their support for things like X.

Very well put Living in Gin. We should be finding every forum we can to introduce the arguements you make here.

Or to say someone supports X because their job has to do with X, so they gain financially. Well, maybe they picked their job because it aligns with their support for things like X.

 

That's also why I find it insane that Bortz abstains from voting on streetcar issues, under the grounds that the streetcar would benefit his business. In that case, any city council member who lives in the city should not be allowed to vote on road improvements, sewer improvements, or any other issue that could potentially benefit themselves or their property.

per the Newsmakers episode, Hurley did more to debate Louis than Dawson. Kinda sad. Those 2 were on a PBS issues episode last night. Same thing. Problem is Louis & 48 proponents are working in soundbite mode. They say a few short easy to remember phrases & buzzwords that stick & most of the 48 opponents aren't doing the same. What's memorable afterwards is what the proponents have been saying.

FWIW, Louis $400M figure seems to be for 30 years.

Ohio Ethics guys have barred Bortz from voting. Once Kasich has the panel stacked, eating your young will probably be ok.

In 30 years I hope to eat breakfast over 10,000 times.

 

It's amazing what you can do with math.

 

 

^At least give him credit for including the operating cost, though he didn't say "$400 million including operating costs for 30 years."

 

Often we think of infrastructure costs in terms of initial construction, but the real cost has to include operating costs, which over 30 years can equal the construction cost.

^At least give him credit for including the operating cost, though he didn't say "$400 million including operating costs for 30 years."

 

Often we think of infrastructure costs in terms of initial construction, but the real cost has to include operating costs, which over 30 years can equal the construction cost.

 

even with operating costs, you're well below $400 million

^Granted, he may be exaggerating, and he doesn't say if he is talking about the proposed uptown extention or not. Still, two can play at that game. I think that there are folks on this board that are reporting cost estimates that are exaggerated in the other direction.

 

 

Or to say someone supports X because their job has to do with X, so they gain financially. Well, maybe they picked their job because it aligns with their support for things like X.

 

That's also why I find it insane that Bortz abstains from voting on streetcar issues, under the grounds that the streetcar would benefit his business. In that case, any city council member who lives in the city should not be allowed to vote on road improvements, sewer improvements, or any other issue that could potentially benefit themselves or their property.

 

Trust me- Bortz does NOT want to abstain (although I'm sure in this anti-streetcar climate, he doesn't mind before election day)- he is pretty pissed at that ruling.

>Does this guy have a job?  Or a life?

 

No and no.  For all the time he spends on the internet, you'd think he would have realized by now that people won't hire you if your online activity consists entirely of lying.  He's painted himself into a corner of hell. 

 

Meanwhile, I've been noticing for the past few years that AM talk radio has made an effort to attack the legitimacy of internet news sources (except The Drudge Report).  In tandem with all the ads about ID theft protection, the old crowd has been brainwashed into fearing the internet, and have no knowledge of discussion forums like this one.  The one thing that does go on is crazy chain emails that get forwarded and reforwarded amongst old people. 

>Does this guy have a job?  Or a life?

 

No and no.  For all the time he spends on the internet, you'd think he would have realized by now that people won't hire you if your online activity consists entirely of lying.  He's painted himself into a corner of hell. 

 

Meanwhile, I've been noticing for the past few years that AM talk radio has made an effort to attack the legitimacy of internet news sources (except The Drudge Report).  In tandem with all the ads about ID theft protection, the old crowd has been brainwashed into fearing the internet, and have no knowledge of discussion forums like this one.  The one thing that does go on is crazy chain emails that get forwarded and reforwarded amongst old people.

 

Mark Miller/COAST account tweeted 53 times today about the streetcar(still going) on a friday and we still have 2 hours left before the day is over.   

COAST really is a coalition of the failed, bitter and fearful. They have to create battles for themselves to give meaning to their lives. While most such men would be satisfied playing video games in their mothers's basement, they are too old to have gotten into video games and play out their fantasies for real. You cannot underestimate how troubled they are. Until they are totalled discredited and possibly found guilt of some crimes, they will fight on.

I was really hoping this thread would hit 500 by election day... haha- not sure if we'll make it now...

 

 

 

^ I still have a standing offer to bet that we'll hit 1,000 by the time the streetcar starts carrying revenue passengers. Say $100. Any takers?

We can hit 500 for sure.  We just need to rehash a couple standard arguments AGAIN for good measure.  Like this:

 

Ummm....we already have Metro buses that go the same route.  Why don't they just paint them to look like a trolley!?!  Stupid boondoggle.

Socialist Mark Mallory Trolley Folly Marxist Crime Train Communist CHOO CHOO!!! Boondoggle to NOWHERE!!

I was a shame that we did away with mental institutions. If they don't take their pills it is as if they are getting no help at all.

Close to 70 tweets yesterday from Mark just on the streetcar(to 12:01am)

 

Today he's already at 19 including some in the 2-3 am range and then woke up at 7am to start again.

 

 

What's a "trolley"?

Close to 70 tweets yesterday from Mark just on the streetcar(to 12:01am)

Today he's already at 19 including some in the 2-3 am range and then woke up at 7am to start again.

Interesting. I had kinda figured he had some kind of script running on a Blackberry. Seems like you could do something like that with some text generating program. Might even make more sense.

What's a "trolley"?

 

It's that thing that dispenses burgers, Stupid.  Aint you ever been to West End?

What's a "trolley"?

 

"Trolley" is a corruption of "trawler," which is a device that connects the vehicle to the overhead wire. Sometimes the trawler has a wheel attached to reduce friction. Trawlers are most associated with streetcars, although they were also used on interurbans and electric railroads. Most modern streetcars don't use trawlers, but use pantographs instead.

 

The pole that holds the trawler is called a trawler pole, or a "trolley pole."

 

Not all historic streetcars were electric. There were also horsecars, which were drawn by horses, and cable cars, which were drawn by cables from a stationary power house. There was a period about 1910 when all three were used at the same time. To distinguish, they were called "horsecars", "cable cars," and "trolley cars." Trolley cars lasted the longest, until 1951 in Cincinnati, so "trolley" became synonomous with "streetcar."

 

An electric car on rubber wheels is legally called a "trackless trolley," or unofficially, a "trolley bus." These still exist in Dayton. 

 

A motor bus that is decorated to look like a streetcar from the 1910 era is sometimes called a "trolley." This is what Winburn and others want to initiate instead of a streetcar on rails. Louisville has one of these that is marketed as a "trolley."

 

 

 

 

 

 

What does this have to do with streetcars?

What's a "trolley"?

 

 

A motor bus that is decorated to look like a streetcar from the 1910 era is sometimes called a "trolley." This is what Winburn and others want to initiate instead of a streetcar on rails. Louisville has one of these that is marketed as a "trolley."

 

... and probably costs about $6.00 for each person who sets foot on it. Got to http://www.protransit.com/FAQs/ and scroll down to "Is Charlie Winburn right .... "

What does this have to do with streetcars?

 

Streetcar opponents and pro-Issue 48 forces use the term "Trolley" as a pejorative in referring to the streetcar. Since it does, in fact, call to a more nostalgic vision of a streetcar, it allows them to dismiss it as a toy and not a valid form of public transit. 'Tis the power of language...

A trolley is the electricity collector at the end of a pole between a transit vehicle (bus or streetcar) that contacts with the overhead wire. It is often a metal wheel, but the first ones were like a tray that was dragged along the top of the wire as if it was trolling for fish. That led to the name.

Philadelphia's Subway-Surface trolleys are the only true trolleys that are still in use in a wide-scale basis in any American city, aside from historic lines and museums. The 101 Media and 102 Sharon Hill routes use pantographs despite being mostly identical vehicles, so they are technically not trolleys. (The Media and Sharon Hill vehicles are double-ended, while the other Subway-Surface vehicles are single-ended. Hence, the need for a pantograph.)

 

A trolley:

 

Not a trolley: