For pro-transit Cincinnatians, I think NOW is the time to go on the offensive.

 

I have a few ideas ruminating around in my head. One a big one, and two small ones.

 

Good! I really feel we need to put together a comprehensive transit plan with a plan on how to achieve it. And I think NOW is DEFINITELY the time!

 

I'm definitely willing to help with that effort!

I've done some investigating on the opponents plans that leads me to believe they are planning another ballot initiative, possibly/probably for this year(since they know they are running out of time)

 

I've heard rumors of some of them wanting a petition to amend the number of people on city council and/or some of them wanting another streetcar measure of some sort.

 

My guess is that they will go all out since they are in desperation mode

If the opposition wants to try something really desperate, I have a suggestion for them: LEAVE!

When's the earliest they could do another referendum? May?

 

-COAST is about to fight off a lawsuit.

 

-They'd have to get all their signatures all over again.

 

-If Smitherman busies himself with his shiny new council position and actually doesn't mobilize the NAACP for signatures, it could take them even longer to get another referendum going.

 

-For the last two they had the warm summer months to get out into the neighborhoods, and even then, they took until the last minute to get everything turned in.

 

-The Banks will be open in spring, the casino actually looks like a building already, Washington Park will be open and flooded with choir singers. You couldn't ask for a better backdrop for the "Your streetcar under construction here" signs.

-The Banks will be open in spring, the casino actually looks like a building already, Washington Park will be open and flooded with choir singers. You couldn't ask for a better backdrop for the "Your streetcar under construction here" signs.

 

I CANNOT wait to see those signs!

Jake is right. miller and finney will NEVER stop. Why would they if they think they are slaying the evil dragon. This isn't an economic issue for them. It is about protecting their tribe from competing tribes. They will never stop until they are either arrested for fraud or embezzlement or they die. A few IRA terrorists are still "at work" in northern ireland to this day. The IRA began in the 1930s. COAST is the same.

 

Can we please get a Mod to have a serious talk with Matt Hall. I am getting sick of these COAST=a terrorist group comparison.

 

STOP COMPARING COAST TO GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO KILL PEOPLE!!!

Moderator Note

 

Matthew: We get it, COAST is evil. You're preaching to the choir here. But comparing them to terrorist groups and evil regimes trivializes the real atrocities that occur in the world, makes COAST out to be more than what they are, and damages your own credibility.

 

More importantly for the purposes of UrbanOhio, it derails the thread into off-topic territory and serves as an incitement to a flame war, and will not be tolerated.

 

You've been warned before. Any further messages that are out of line (as well as anybody else's follow-up replies) will be deleted without warning, and the Admins may decide to take further action as they see fit, including possible suspension of your account.

 

This message will not be debated or second-guessed on this thread, or else you'll find yourself in even bigger trouble. Got a problem with that? Then DM an Admin.

 

End of discussion. Don't bother replying here, because I'm hitting the "delete" button before I even read it.

 

Now back to the topic, please. (And that applies to everybody.)

>busies himself with his shiny new council position

 

The question is what is Smitherman's long-term plan, and did he just use COAST/Luken for the past two years to get back on council?  Does he need COAST more than COAST needs him?  Is his goal to stay on council for eight years or to seek higher office? 

 

What's amazing is that all these listeners to 700 WLW, which banned him for about five years, seem to forget that Cunningham ripped him every time some sort of race-related issue made the news.  Kind of like they can't figure out that this so-called conservative talk show host is actually a Democrat, despite him having run for office as a Democrat.   

 

 

PG on 700 WLW now, still not taking a position on the streetcar. Glad I didn't vote for him. Can't take an issue on anything else either.

I suspect he'll be Cincinnati's counterpart to Mitt Romney, the monied pretty boy who can't take a position on a single issue without first putting his finger to the political winds. (Continuing with that theme, I guess Charlie Winburn becomes our own Harman Cain.)

 

I'm just glad we now have enough of a pro-streetcar majority on City Council that we don't need to rely on Sittenfeld if things are in a pinch.

So forgive my ignorance, but I guess there's no limit on how many times a referendum (that is basically the same) can fail? If they get the signatures and pony up the cash to dig up the votes, they can do this ad-infinitum? If they put a strictly anti-streetcar measure on the ballot, it could pass midway through construction or some nonsense....

 

Basically, what is to keep me from making a ballot measure that says free beer on tuesdays at all bars within city limits... and get a bunch of signatures and put it up for a vote?  :-)

^Stopping something half way through would be even  be more of a waste than anything else.

So forgive my ignorance, but I guess there's no limit on how many times a referendum (that is basically the same) can fail? If they get the signatures and pony up the cash to dig up the votes, they can do this ad-infinitum? If they put a strictly anti-streetcar measure on the ballot, it could pass midway through construction or some nonsense....

 

Basically, what is to keep me from making a ballot measure that says free beer on tuesdays at all bars within city limits... and get a bunch of signatures and put it up for a vote?  :-)

Interesting analogy because that is how prohibition eventually passed. They just kept hammering away. They're doing the same on abortion nowadays. You can keep bringing it up on ballots or in the legislature.

These same people probably use the same tactics to get dates, too. You just wear the chick down......

^Stopping something half way through would be even  be more of a waste than anything else.

 

But that doesn't mean it can't happen. Cincinnati subway.

All this talk about future ballot measures highlights the need for Cincinnatians for Progress to become a permanent entity in transit-related affairs. After Issue 9 was defeated in 2009, they seemed to roll up their tents and go back home. When Issue 48 came around, they had to play catch-up. The troglodytes aren't going to stop, so CFP can't stop, either.

 

Hopefully the OEC complaint against Miller and COAST will stick, and result in a meaningful reprimand rather than just a slap on the wrist. That would further discredit them, hit them in the wallet where it really hurts, and make them think twice before spewing more dishonest rhetoric in the future.

 

As for future transit plans, the main priority needs to be about getting the streetcar up and running ASAP. Once that happens, the rest will follow. (And COAST knows that, which is why they're fighting so hard to kill this project.)

While we're waiting for the first phase of the streetcar to begin construction, it never hurts to dream a little:

 

 

(Still a work in progress...)

There needs to be a semi-official light rail vision in the works, so that if COAST tries to pull something after Streetcar construction has began, we can point to it and show people what could be in the works for the next few years.

here's some more Philly Trolley action , the tracks are embedded in Concrete for the most part...

 

While we're waiting for the first phase of the streetcar to begin construction, it never hurts to dream a little:

 

 

(Still a work in progress...)

 

^ Will you email this to me?

LIG, do you have another version of the transit map based on a real map instead of a schematic? Just wondering.

I have some earlier versions of it that were mapped out on Google Earth and on a more geographical map, but nothing that matches the routes shown above. (Be assured that all the proposed rights-of-way above are based on real streets and/or existing rail lines.)

^I like it.  :-D

 

^ Will you email this to me?

 

Done. Just give me a chance to tweak it a bit and send you a revised version before you show it to any officials, etc. (Among other things, I just noticed that I have I-71 running east of Mount Adams.)

Am I the only one who hates these super-abstract maps?  I just find them completely incomprehensible, especially for someone who's intimately familiar with the actual geography of the area.  I understand the need for some level of simplification, but for heaven's sake, the world isn't made up of only 90º and 45º angles.  With that and the scale being so distorted it's as if the goal is to make the map as unrealistic and useless as is humanly possible. 

 

[rant off]

Am I the only one who hates these super-abstract maps?  I just find them completely incomprehensible, especially for someone who's intimately familiar with the actual geography of the area.  I understand the need for some level of simplification, but for heaven's sake, the world isn't made up of only 90º and 45º angles.  With that and the scale being so distorted it's as if the goal is to make the map as unrealistic and useless as is humanly possible. 

 

[rant off]

 

Watch your mouth and say you're sorry to HC Beck NOW!  :)

As for the next step, I have several ideas, but given the current climate I don't think that passage of a county tax in support of regional rail is possible.

 

Developing a large streetcar system within the city limits quickly is impossible without raising taxes.  Sure, we can keep applying for and getting grants of up to $100 million, but expansion will be slow.  The other issue is duplication of metro bus routes -- in a perfect world streetcars/light rail would completely replace Metro's busiest bus routes (#4 Reading, #17 Clifton/Hamilton Ave., #78 Vine St.), but to do so they would have to extend outside city limits.  The one possible terminal for metro could be Knowlton's Corner, with a streetcar headed to UC via Ludlow and direct downtown rail service via the subway.  Such a 4-mile northside rapid transit shuttle was studied in 1929. 

 

There is possible salvation at the state level when Kasich is booted.  Specifically, a much more robust 3C's plan would lay a new track or pair of tracks from Sharonville down to the Transit Center, allowing high quality intercity passenger rail AND commuter rail from northern suburbs on those same tracks.  A similar setup for commuter rail could be done in Columbus and Cleveland. 

 

As for the next step, I have several ideas...

 

Care to share?

Okay, the map has been updated to show Mount Adams in its proper place, along with a few other minor tweaks.

 

As for diagram maps vs. geographic maps, the vast majority of transit systems worldwide use some variation of diagram map. The problem with a purely geographical map is that you'd have an illegible mess of stations clustered within the central core of the city, and tons of empty space out in the suburbs where the stations are further apart. If subway maps showed places like Lower Manhattan or downtown Brooklyn in true geographic scale, you'd have a complete dog's breakfast of subway lines and stations. The idea of a diagram map is to show the sequence of stations and transfer locations in a manner that looks somewhat orderly. The use of 45-degree angles and evenly-spaced stations are a means toward that end.

 

The only major city I'm aware of that uses a true geographic map for its transit system is Chicago, but since the entire city is on a grid with major avenues (and corresponding transit stations) at roughly half-mile intervals, the resulting map is fairly diagrammatic to begin with. Even then, the Loop requires an enlarged inset, which adds to confusion. The New York City Subway map is quasi-geographic, but even in that case the designers have had to take some pretty drastic liberties with the city's geography.

My favorite is the Tokyo rail system map....

 

http://i.pbase.com/v3/81/562181/1/44463421.tokyotrain.jpg

 

...which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Cincinnati streetcar. BACK ON TOPIC!! ;)

As for the next step, I have several ideas, but given the current climate I don't think that passage of a county tax in support of regional rail is possible.

 

Developing a large streetcar system within the city limits quickly is impossible without raising taxes.  Sure, we can keep applying for and getting grants of up to $100 million, but expansion will be slow.  The other issue is duplication of metro bus routes -- in a perfect world streetcars/light rail would completely replace Metro's busiest bus routes (#4 Reading, #17 Clifton/Hamilton Ave., #78 Vine St.), but to do so they would have to extend outside city limits.  The one possible terminal for metro could be Knowlton's Corner, with a streetcar headed to UC via Ludlow and direct downtown rail service via the subway.  Such a 4-mile northside rapid transit shuttle was studied in 1929. 

 

 

Its funny Northside was the first step solution that I landed on when briefly thinking about it last night. Though I began to wonder if entire route would not be better run as a single line, from Downtown through to Northside (Knowlton's Corner) and up Ludlow.

This has many benefits really...Operated as a V this would make stops at the old subway terminals underground up to Northside and then work its way up Ludlow as a Streetcar in a dedicated lane. This move would obviously open up the brewery district, and could work in infrastructure efforts to provide better access to the West End from Central Parkway. 

 

-Most importantly though (for this conversation) such a move would set up Northside at the forefront of Light Rail talk.  A multi-modal transit stop could be planned, converging two light rail lines- roughly along the 74 and 75 corridors, a dedicated lane streetcar line, and a bike center connecting into a Spring Grove bike boulevard.

 

It would also:

-be very quick as I recall that the Streetcars to be purchased could get up to 40 or 45 mph

-work within peoples' familiarity with the streetcars and as a result is more likely to be successful

-give people two transit line interchange points Central Prkwy and Zoo/UC Med helping to create a connected streetcar system

-set up this Central Parkway interchange as a hub from which a line to Union Terminal could start construction 

-provide a slim profile vehicle for the old tubes to carry and

 

^ I'm having trouble imagining a dedicated streetcar lane on Ludlow as you get near the business district.

^^ A most provocative post, nati streets!  You've done some real "homework" here--hopefully this kind of insight will influence other planners.  Thanks.

A convergence of light rail lines has already been planned for the I-75 rebuild project.  The graphic is in my book.  Unfortunately the two would not converge until south of Northside, with an I-74 station a the site of the current Northside exit (near the tire-rolling Indian) and the I-75 station near Mad Anthony and Spring Grove.  The two would connect in a Y above the Dooley Bypass to enable the cross-town line shown in the Metromoves Diagrams. 

 

This is the cheapest way to do it but highly problematic as it misses the business district and does not offer the possibility of eliminating bus service and doesn't allow for a logical transfer between light rail and buses or streetcars to Clifton.  The proper solution, of course, is a subway with a station under Hamilton near Chase or perhaps Hoffner Park, which could offer a construction staging area.

 

The big technical problem with a subway in Northside is getting UNDER the Mill Creek, then back up to the canal altitude or the even higher Ludlow Avenue at Cincinnati State.  What I'm discussing here is at least a $500 million project, but if it can eliminate downtown-bound buses from Knowton's Corner, it starts making money sense. 

 

 

   

I don't know if anyone's thought of this before, but it would be fun to host an "Urban Ohio Charrette." Throw a couple urban planning challenges out there, for example how to get a transit line to Northside, or what to do with the empty lots on Central Parkway, etc. Find a meting space, add some beer, have "mods" that can bring some technical or historical knowledge, and see what all of our armchair planners come up with.

 

 

While we're waiting for the first phase of the streetcar to begin construction, it never hurts to dream a little:

 

 

(Still a work in progress...)

 

Best place to start would be with Green & yellow lines. 

 

Light rail to airport is a popular concept (yellow line goes to airport, through downtown and out towards mason) and in order to pass anything (I would suggest a 1 cent sales tax increase, not half cent) you need support of the westside and other outer municipalities (green line stretches across entire county, an argument could be made for blue instead, but mainly for same reasons). Obviously, the line would NOT extend outside of HamCo unless other counties are going to pitch in to fund operating/construction. 

I don't know if anyone's thought of this before, but it would be fun to host an "Urban Ohio Charrette." Throw a couple urban planning challenges out there, for example how to get a transit line to Northside, or what to do with the empty lots on Central Parkway, etc. Find a meting space, add some beer, have "mods" that can bring some technical or historical knowledge, and see what all of our armchair planners come up with.

 

 

Great Idea!  Could we invite Sandra Queen Noble too?  I want to hear some of here ideas.  Remember when she was asked about the "Planned Streetcar System" by Citybeat she came back with this gem: 

 

Sandra Queen Noble (Independent): “I'm innate Law Enforcement. I'll hold government officials criminally accountable for not exercising fiscal discipline with public funds used to pay off city, state, county and federal Revere deficits. Stop railroading the public funds. My idea is to turn car and truck windows into LDS screens for instant 3D Internet and entertainment assets. It will save time and trouble carting mobile laptop appendages everywhere you travel. Now, thats enhancement and advancement that wont charge the public $13 million.”

 

 

HAHAHA!  I REALLY wanted her on City Council to break the tension.

^ 100% agree, about Ms. Queen Noble.

 

^^ Can someone tell me why the green and purple lines are how they are? I feel like some sort of hybrid of the two might be better than either one alone.

If I had to pick two lines to build first on my hypothetical transit system, I'd do one major north-south line such as the Orange Line and one major east-west line such as the Green Line. Both the Orange Line and Green Line utilize rights-of-way that, for the most part, already exist, and they would form the backbone upon which the rest of the system could later be expanded.

 

For the rapid transit lines I envision a fully grade-separated heavy rail system similar in nature to the Washington Metro, but there's no reason it couldn't be built to light rail specs, or perhaps a hybrid approach like the light rail lines in St. Louis and Los Angeles (with dedicated rights-of-way and high-level boarding like a subway, but with power distribution via overhead catenary to enable grade crossings).

A convergence of light rail lines has already been planned for the I-75 rebuild project.  The graphic is in my book.  Unfortunately the two would not converge until south of Northside, with an I-74 station a the site of the current Northside exit (near the tire-rolling Indian) and the I-75 station near Mad Anthony and Spring Grove.  The two would connect in a Y above the Dooley Bypass to enable the cross-town line shown in the Metromoves Diagrams. 

 

This is the cheapest way to do it but highly problematic as it misses the business district and does not offer the possibility of eliminating bus service and doesn't allow for a logical transfer between light rail and buses or streetcars to Clifton. 

 

Jake-  You and John know a lot more about the previous plans then most of us.  I was not aware that the previously planned (and easiest) convergence of 74 & 75 Light Rail lines would miss the business district all together.  The main thing I was trying to get at was that building a station with the capability for Light Rail would start to rally people to a light rail system.  I agree with you the money to do things a little more difficultly (and to the north) up front, would FAR outweigh the initial cost.

 

As far as an airport connection is concerned, I had hoped to hear some movement on that this past year, coinciding with CVG's new director.  Have there been murmurings that have not yet slipped out to the public?  I agree with most posters that such a line would be a great next step.  Unfortunately it is not Ohio, or even Cincinnati's next step as  the line would not be in City limits for more than 2 miles, and I think we might have to wait for the new bridge to be built and incorporate a light rail track or open the BSB for a track before we can cross the river as easily as would be desired for a rapid Airport connection.

 

I have been encouraged in the past by the far reaching goals and lines involved with the MetroMoves plan and I love extent of network dreamed in Living in Gin's graphic... but I wonder what we can leverage to continue the ball rolling before it picks up speed and can become either of these dense networks.

 

-Could the city work with the development team from Incline Village to restablish a west side incline (developer financed but with a city financed Union Terminal Streetcar stop at its base)? Could that be paired with a Mount Adams incline, done at the same time as the pending expansion of the Cincinnati Art Museum?  This could really enrich this already planned streetcar route adn create a vibrant West to East streecar line.

 

-Do we use the old subway tunnels because construction could proceed rapidly, and because they would have their own right of way already built in? Could this be tied into bringing business interest in Camp Washington and Northside?  Considering the amount of open land, empty warehouses, downtown access, and easy rail or highway shipping access either locale seems like a very good place for a planned/potential Cincinnati film and production studio.

 

-Do we take advantage of the Riverfront transit center and tie into Newport and Covington?

 

Nati Streets, I'll dig up that graphic tonight when I'm at home. 

 

Any hypothetical prosal has to reflect some plausible political scenario.  Something like the Washington Metro can't happen without a total 180 in Washington, so it's not really worth worrying about.  The current reality is city + small federal grants with total hostility from the county, which will likely continue for 10 years, and total hostility from the state at present, but with some potential for a short-term reversal if Kasich is booted.

 

I have been suggesting for some time that I believe the breakthrough can happen if we have a statewide initiative that focuses on investing in existing investments in the urban counties.  So connecting downtowns and state universities by rail, burying utilities and radical street remakes for urban state routes, etc.

 

Am I the only one who hates these super-abstract maps?  I just find them completely incomprehensible, especially for someone who's intimately familiar with the actual geography of the area.  I understand the need for some level of simplification, but for heaven's sake, the world isn't made up of only 90º and 45º angles.  With that and the scale being so distorted it's as if the goal is to make the map as unrealistic and useless as is humanly possible. 

 

[rant off]

 

I think "especially for someone who's intimately familiar with the actual geography of the area" is the key. The 45 and 90 degree angles are a little bit strange for locals, but make it much easier for visitors who aren't familiar with the geography.  Hasn't nearly every city except NYC adopted this format?

As for the next step, I have several ideas, but given the current climate I don't think that passage of a county tax in support of regional rail is possible.

 

Developing a large streetcar system within the city limits quickly is impossible without raising taxes.  Sure, we can keep applying for and getting grants of up to $100 million, but expansion will be slow.  The other issue is duplication of metro bus routes -- in a perfect world streetcars/light rail would completely replace Metro's busiest bus routes (#4 Reading, #17 Clifton/Hamilton Ave., #78 Vine St.), but to do so they would have to extend outside city limits.  The one possible terminal for metro could be Knowlton's Corner, with a streetcar headed to UC via Ludlow and direct downtown rail service via the subway.  Such a 4-mile northside rapid transit shuttle was studied in 1929. 

 

There is possible salvation at the state level when Kasich is booted.  Specifically, a much more robust 3C's plan would lay a new track or pair of tracks from Sharonville down to the Transit Center, allowing high quality intercity passenger rail AND commuter rail from northern suburbs on those same tracks.  A similar setup for commuter rail could be done in Columbus and Cleveland. 

 

 

In MetroMoves, there were routes that extended outside of the county, despite the fact that only Hamilton County voted.  Surrounding counties would have to vote later to build the portion of the routes in those counties.

 

Would it not be possible to do the same with the city of Cincinnati?  Design useful routes within city limits, with extensions that go into Hamilton and other surrounding counties. If the city approves it, we can start building the routes within the city.  Other routes could be built as they're approved by the necessary counties.

Any hypothetical proposal has to reflect some plausible political scenario.

 

^Which is another way to say it has to be funded before it can be built. It's fun to draw lines on a map. It's not quite as much fun to beg for money to build it.

 

Laugh at me if you want, but I think the most likely scenario is to start a "tourest" line that is gradually expanded into a legitimate transportation line. If you think it can't happen, look at the Cuyahoga Valley Railroad near Cleveland.

 

We have three such tourist lines near Cincinnati. The Whitewater Valley is the longest, running between Connersville and Metamora, Indiana. It attracts weekend crowds, and the evening dinner crowd. Coaches are vintage 1920's with real leather seats. Unfortunately, it is too far outside of the urban area.

 

The Turtle Creek railroad runs from Mason to Lebanon, and shares tracks with a lightly used freight railroad on the former CL&N, which incidentally used to go all the way to downtown Cincinnati. The operating railroad, Rail America, petitioned the Federal Railroad Administration to re-open the 3-mile section between Mason and Brecon, but was denied based on NIMBY resistance by adjacent residential property owners, which is a travesty.

 

The Indiana and Ohio railroad operates a dinner train, a jazz train, a Riverfest train, and various other specials on the OASIS line and the line that follows River Road on the west side.

 

Unfortunately for Cincinnati, the existing railroads that are not heavily congested with freight traffic are not well located for passenger traffic. What we could really use is a passenger line on existing track between Cincinnati and Dayton or maybe between Cincinnati and Hamilton but those lines are out of the question for now because of freight traffic. 

 

I still say to get something started on the OASIS line by the boathouse as a demonstration. The right-of-way is available, and for $1 million or less it could be extended to Paul Brown Stadium. Maybe there's a way to route it to Union Terminal. If nothing else, it could transport commuters from the parking lot at Union Terminal to football games and Riverfest, and maybe it will grow into something larger.  Although it's a circuitous route, the OASIS line goes almost to Sharonville via the East End.

 

I don't know if anyone's thought of this before, but it would be fun to host an "Urban Ohio Charrette." Throw a couple urban planning challenges out there, for example how to get a transit line to Northside, or what to do with the empty lots on Central Parkway, etc. Find a meting space, add some beer, have "mods" that can bring some technical or historical knowledge, and see what all of our armchair planners come up with.

 

I took part in something similar at work and had a lot of fun. Basicly, in a training session, over a dozen people each were asked to come up with a project to meet certain goals. It was interesting to compare and contrast the different projects.

 

In another one, I joined an open architectural competition with actual prize money. I didn't win, but still had fun and learned some things.

 

Tell you what: Anyone interested in a friendly competition PM me. If there's enough interest, I'll set it up. Topic will be an urban planning problem in Cincinnati.

Any hypothetical prosal has to reflect some plausible political scenario.  Something like the Washington Metro can't happen without a total 180 in Washington, so it's not really worth worrying about.  The current reality is city + small federal grants with total hostility from the county, which will likely continue for 10 years, and total hostility from the state at present, but with some potential for a short-term reversal if Kasich is booted.

 

I would argue that the "political 180" needs to happen, probably will happen, and is something that we need to continue pushing to happen sooner rather than later. The anti-rail fanatics are a dying breed and they know it, hence their desperation over the past few years. Demographic shifts and the ever-rising cost of gasoline will continue to fuel political shifts in favor of rail transit for the foreseeable future, despite periodic setbacks. I would also argue that the state of our infrastructure and economy demands a large-scale WPA-style program at the federal level that invests massive amounts of money into mass transit and other critical infrastructure needs. (And the "massive" amounts of money are only massive compared to the status quo. Compared to our military boondoggles in Iraq and Afghanistan, the amounts we're talking about would be pocket change.) It's a sad commentary on our current climate that our current political climate is seen as a given with no hope of change, and that something on the scale of the Washington Metro can never be duplicated again. I refuse to accept either premise.

 

Regarding the heavy rail vs. light rail issue, the main cost savings from light rail have to do with the fact that total grade separation is not necessary for light rail. However, this presupposes that you're in a city with wide boulevards that can accommodate light rail lines in the median, and that you have relatively level topography. Those conditions hold true out west, where light rail systems are more common, but except in a few limited areas, they don't hold true in Cincinnati. Once you accept the premise that any regional rail system in Cincinnati will largely be grade-separated, then the cost difference between light rail and heavy rail becomes relatively minor.

 

The good news for Cincinnati is that we already have a number of corridors for rail transit use that are largely grade-separated. These include the Central Parkway subway, the Riverfront Transit Center, the Oasis Line, the CL&N line, and the right-of-way that will be included along the rebuilt I-75. Other rail corridors will require tunnels, but again, once you've decided to take on the expense of building a tunnel, it doesn't really matter whether it's for light rail or heavy rail. Once you get further outside the core, grade separation becomes less of an issue, and you can simply run the trains under overhead catenary if it's not financially feasible to eliminate every grade crossing. (I'm thinking something like the Wasson Line as an example.) Again, at that point it doesn't really matter if the trains you're running are Portland-style light rail, Washington-style heavy rail, or some system that combines elements of each.

PG on 700 WLW now, still not taking a position on the streetcar. Glad I didn't vote for him. Can't take an issue on anything else either.

 

PG doesn't need to take a position on the streetcar. It's already set that it will begin construction. Council isn't voting on streetcar-related issues, because it's already happening.

The badmouthing of Sittenfeld has become quite nonsensical. Just because the streetcar isn't his primary focus doesn't mean he should be thrown into the fire. Qualls has form-based codes as her prized pig. Quinlivan has green issues. Why should PG be lambasted because he doesn't agree with you on one issue?

As promised, here are ODOT's circa 2007 light rail drawings for I-75 and I-74.  Up is WEST, Right is NORTH.

 

Overview, showing subway extension under McMicken St.:

 

Closeup of subway extension:

 

Here's the I-74 line joining the I-75 line, with a station next to I-74 and a (presumably elevated) wye near the tire-rolling Indian:

 

I-75's Northside station would be near Anthony Wayne Ave:

 

 

The concept we're seeing here is light rail as high speed commuter rail, with park & rides feeding lines that parallel the interstates.  Obviously these lines feed the old subway, which has good station locations.  But bypassing the Northside business district and no provision for interchanging with a streetcar line on Hamilton Ave., then up to UC via Ludlow is highly problematic.  We're not really seeing potential here to eliminate bus routes. 

 

The two cities to really compare when it comes to light rail strategy are Houston and Dallas.  DART has 72 miles of track and 76,000 daily riders.  Houston has 7.5 miles of track and 35,000 riders.  Houston's single line travels entirely in mixed traffic on an existing arterial street (so it eliminated redundant bus service) and has the highest per-mile ridership of any light rail line in the country.  Meanwhile Dallas built radial lines in every direction that do not have station locations in the center of existing business districts AND they have to keep operating all the old bus lines. 

 

So DART is getting nowhere near the ROI that Houston is getting.  We can learn from this or we can ignore it.  I'm not saying that I-75 and I-74 light rail don't have merit...Downtown would certainly benefit, but I don't think we can expect the region to be transformed by them in the way streetcars or light rail on the major avenues would improve the functionality of the old business districts.   

 

 

 

Here is an animation of Houston's next light rail line:

 

For whatever reason, they've had an extraordinary number of accidents on the existing line.

 

It's called "Texas drivers."

Don't Houston have ALOT of accidents with their rail?