^ I heard from several friends at City Hall that depending on the final costs for Utility relocation (estimated to be between 10 and 30 million beyond the budget) they may only end up having enough money to do the route up to Corryville, but not to the Banks.

 

That doesn't seem to make sense to me because now that the County backed out of the cost sharing plan for the MSD, they will have the full responsibility for later sewer upgrades (and working around the streetcar rails). Not all the utilities have to be moved. What's going on with Duke, on the other hand, may be different. We haven't heard any indication yet for what it will be for power line relocations and such associated costs.

MSD was a small part-- About $3 million.  But Waterworks, Manholes (of any company, including MSD), duke energy, etc. all have to be moved. Some costs will be paid for by the utility, others by the project and the Duke energy costs were the ones to be primarily disputed. 

 

Of course I'm hoping that that is just worst case scenario talk, and that those costs are transferred/aren't as high, and of course, the new grant would be $6 million more than the state funds that were revoked.

What's going on with Duke, on the other hand, may be different. We haven't heard any indication yet for what it will be for power line relocations and such associated costs.

 

Last year they said $20 million for moving electric and gas only, while the city had budgeted for $5 million for ALL relocation.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2010/11/19/cincinnatis-streetcar-utility.html?page=all

 

___________

 

And I know all the talk about how it's the utilities responsibility etc.  and that's nice in theory, but unfortunately, in our reality the City will definitely spend some money paying for relocation, and obviously people at City Hall are thinking about that too.

 

Hearing Smitherman is definitely pursuing an amendment to ban any and all potential revenue from the casino from going to the operation of the streetcar

I recall what Duke stated... but that number seems inflated (to me, based on statements of other posters who have knowledge of other cities' experiences). I still feel fairly confident that the whole (Banks to Uptown) route will be accomplished should the Tiger grant come through. Could just be my perpetual optimism, though...

Hearing Smitherman is definitely pursuing an amendment to ban any and all potential revenue from the casino from going to the operation of the streetcar

 

Yes-  RIDICULOUS.  I wish council could raise the number of signatures needed to get amendments on the ballot from 10% of the previous years electorate to 15%.

Can we pursue an amendment to the city charter banning Chris Smitherman from writing charter amendments?

Can any one make any kinda of amendment? Can i come up with banning my property tax to be paid towards schools????

Hearing Smitherman is definitely pursuing an amendment to ban any and all potential revenue from the casino from going to the operation of the streetcar

Yes-  RIDICULOUS.  I wish council could raise the number of signatures needed to get amendments on the ballot from 10% of the previous years electorate to 15%.

Or require a super majority to pass a charter amendment.

Hearing Smitherman is definitely pursuing an amendment to ban any and all potential revenue from the casino from going to the operation of the streetcar

Yes-  RIDICULOUS.  I wish council could raise the number of signatures needed to get amendments on the ballot from 10% of the previous years electorate to 15%.

Or require a super majority to pass a charter amendment.

 

^ Requires a change in state law. Unlikely in this environment.

The school property taxes are not in the city charter, so a charter amendment could not affect them.  Sometime in the 1800s school boards were given taxing authority independent of municipalities, like park boards, rapid transit commissions, etc.  But in some cases the taxing authority of one entity has been used to fund the needs of another.  For example park boards in the early 1900s were tapped to build major roads under the guise of building "parkways".  In several cases, rapid transit commissions built roads in addition to transit lines (In Cincinnati and Detroit, the rapid transit commissions built roads but no working subways). 

 

Currently the city of cincinnati funds school nurses in the Cincinnati Public Schools, some of which aren't within city limits.  Soon to be former councilman Wayne Lippert made a sore loser phone call into 550 last week lamenting this apparently appalling waste of city funds on the school nurses, acting as if shifting this $1 million annual cost to the school district was going to eliminate the city's budget crunch. 

 

 

Or require a super majority to pass a charter amendment.

^ Requires a change in state law. Unlikely in this environment.

Cincinnati needs to secede.....

^We're one of the few states in the United States to be fortunate to have a city charter. No city can opt to be a charter city--we're grandfathered.

Today's Enquirer: at least the third letter since the defeat of Issue 48 to tack an anti-streetcar exhortation onto a letter about some other subject.  This time, the county should sell the stadiums, sell the freedom center, and the streetcar project should be abandoned. 

Ugh- These people are idiots. I bet they have no idea how much the county pays into the Freedom Center, that there isn't a market to sell stadiums in Cincinnati and that the streetcar.. well, that's an age old argument that will never change.

 

Seeing that the Banks are considered successful, and we still have people filling the comments on the Enquirer saying how it's a joke and a waste of money reminds me that we will never see people stop complaining about the streetcar.

 

 

^ Everything is about to come together. A few more years, and nobody will say such things.

If those troglodytes had been in power in the 1800's, Cincinnati would never have amounted to anything more than a collection of shacks on the bank of the river.

^ Everything is about to come together. A few more years, and nobody will say such things.

 

"In five years, you won't be able to find anyone that will admit voting against the stadiums." - Mike Brown, sometime around 1997.

 

"The county should sell the stadiums."  -  Recent Enquirer letter to the editor, as reported by Jake above.

 

Do not underestimate political grudges. They run deep.

Spoken like Mike Brown.

^ Everything is about to come together. A few more years, and nobody will say such things.

 

"In five years, you won't be able to find anyone that will admit voting against the stadiums." - Mike Brown, sometime around 1997.

 

"The county should sell the stadiums."  -  Recent Enquirer letter to the editor, as reported by Jake above.

 

Do not underestimate political grudges. They run deep.

 

The lesson there does not seem to be about grudges but about predictions of the success of publicly funded projects. That said, streetcars have a much better empirical track record than stadiums when it comes to spurring economic development.

Cincinnati's history is full of troglodytes.  It's all about protecting the vested interests, especially in transportation.  The riverboat folks fought long and hard against the ohio river bridges, especially the suspension and L&N bridges.  Wagon haulers fought against railroad and interurban freight development.  What was to be the city's first cable car line, planned for Spring Grove Avenue, was blocked by competing horsecar businesses. 

 

Cincinnati also has a long "tradition" of disgruntled individuals suing the city over petty issues.  Someone sued the city for building Cincinnati Southern Railway, one of Cincinnati's best financial investments ever, because cities aren't allowed to own or operate railroads.  This was solved through the usual legal mumbo jumbo of shell corporations, leases, and exclusive operating licenses.  Another time someone sued the city for allowing freight to be hauled on streetcar tracks, or for allowing the operation of steam dummies on streetcar tracks because they were considered railroads.  They're probably all ancestors of Tom Luken. 

 

Seriously though, this has been going on for ages.  I think the difference is that the press, and the general sentiment of the citizenry, were just too busy dealing with growth and prosperity to give any attention to these nutbags in the past.  They'd get a mention in the news blotter, and the court judge would kick them out of the courthouse for wasting everyone's time.  On to more important things.

 

Still, there's no shortage of projects that were blocked completely, were stillborn, or were dramatically scaled back due to some sort of opposition.  Some projects, like the Deer Creek Tunnel were constantly being lauded by the media, but it just couldn't ever raise enough capital, and other railroads took the easy path into the city in the meantime.  On the other hand, earlier railroad and rapid transit plans for the canal were successfully blocked the entrenched transit syndicates.  The aforementioned riverboat industry forced the original L&N bridge to be partially demolished and rebuilt to fix very small geometric deviations in the river navigation channel.  The subway of course is obvious. 

The Deer Creek Tunnel was fought, successfully, by the various existing railroads and the many citizens who owned their stock.  The tunnel was going to severely damage their business, if not send them to the scrap yard.  It was the one project from that era that wasn't reckless, but it competed for capital with many that were.  The knuckleheads who came back to the midwest in the mid-1850s after striking gold in California got swindled into buying shares in any number of imaginary railroads and other investment schemes.  The California Gold Rush was the easiest picking ever -- not those who broke their backs digging -- but for the hucksters who scammed those guys. 

 

The other big problem in the private funding era was that once a company built a bridge, tunnel, streetcar line, or even subway line, they fought tirelessly to keep others from being built anywhere close.  The L&N cut into the Suspension Bridge's business ever so slightly, meaning a dividend was paid just once around 1890.  In the 1930s New York City built its own subway lines to take business away from the IRT and BRT and send them into bankruptcy.  Then they bought them cheap and consolidated it all to permit free transfers. 

 

 

Just read that Kansas city is considering a parking space tax (surface lots only) as one component to funding their current streetcar plan.

 

Interesting!!!

 

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/28/3291363/can-downtown-bear-costs-of-proposed.html

^ Everything is about to come together. A few more years, and nobody will say such things.

 

"In five years, you won't be able to find anyone that will admit voting against the stadiums." - Mike Brown, sometime around 1997.

 

"The county should sell the stadiums."  -  Recent Enquirer letter to the editor, as reported by Jake above.

 

Do not underestimate political grudges. They run deep.

 

My statement's based on pretty solid data (which is rare for me, as I partake heartily in spewing opinion and judgement.) Historically, stadiums have mild economic impact. For 10 years we've been muddling along with two stadiums, an empty museum and an asteroid crater.

 

Now, in the span of 36 months we will have turned on residential, world class waterfront park, restaurant, retail, fixed transit, and a completed street grid.

 

 

This morning a caller on Brian Thomas's show suggested that the city should have "spent the streetcar money on keeping Chiquita".  Not only is it legally impossible for a municipality to sell capital bonds to pay a company (or to give away funds awarded as part of a federal transportation grant), it's simply amazing to hear such celebration of corporate welfare.

^ And ignoring the fact that..... THE STATE of North Carolina put in 20 of the 22 million package and Kasich only wanted to offer 6 million, so it really had little to do with the City's tax package anyway...

 

And the AIRPORT sucks for major businesses. That's a fact.

 

_______________________

 

And what has driven me crazy is that these people seem to ignore Charlotte's Lynx light rail line or the 2 mile streetcar line they are getting ready to expand (I know, it's an old school style streetcar, not modern, but still). 

This morning a caller on Brian Thomas's show suggested that the city should have "spent the streetcar money on keeping Chiquita".  Not only is it legally impossible for a municipality to sell capital bonds to pay a company (or to give away funds awarded as part of a federal transportation grant), it's simply amazing to hear such celebration of corporate welfare.

 

Doc Thompson actually echoed your point of corporate welfare on his show today.  Naturally he backed down and fluffed up Monzel when he was on, but before the interview he shared your sentiment

Somebody over at the Enquirer was griping about Carl Lindner moving Chiquita to Charlotte.

Anyway, Daily Bellewether article:

http://thebellwetherdaily.blogspot.com/2011/11/streetcar-named-cincinnati-is-on-tracks.html

A commenter claims that the streetcar isn't needed because they walked from Pete Rose Way to Findlay Market for lunch.  There's not enough time to do that during an hour lunch, unless you're Barry Horstman...

Some people don't understand that just because you *can* walk somewhere doesn't mean you'll do it regularly, unless you're trying to prove a dimwitted point. I *could* walk to Northside from Clifton, to meet someone for lunch, but mostly likely, I'll either take the bus or drive. But I have a choice there. I'd like to have the choice of taking a streetcar, which stops by a destination every 10-15 minutes (and gives me a smooth ride), than to drive and find parking, walk, or wait for a bus with a lengthy route and turnaround time.

I walk from 14th and Vine to 4th and Sycamore each morning, and it takes at least 15 minutes (sometimes more depending on traffic and catching the lights).  It has to take 20-25 minutes just to walk from Pete Rose Way to Findlay Market.  You better have a 2 hour lunch if you want to do that.

If those troglodytes had been in power in the 1800's, Cincinnati would never have amounted to anything more than a collection of shacks on the bank of the river.

 

COAST was babbling about how Chris Smitherman is a Cincinnati hero blah blah blah.  So I sent your picture of Chris Smitherman being restrained at City Hall to Mark Miller of COAST via twitter.  He said its 'Selective reporting'.  Yes, thats it Mark.  A picture of Chris Smitherman Being restrained in City Hall Chambers from attacking female is 'selective reporting'. 

 

He also said:

 

" and was that female someone who wanted higher taxes & bigger government? Will have to check on all of that"

 

Today's sneak attack streetcar letter said with Chiquita leaving, "there will be fewer to ride Mallory's goofy streetcar".

A commenter claims that the streetcar isn't needed because they walked from Pete Rose Way to Findlay Market for lunch.  There's not enough time to do that during an hour lunch, unless you're Barry Horstman...

 

I have walked from my job in Mt. Auburn to Riverfront Stadium and back during my lunch hour, and that included the hill climb. Of course, that didn't leave any time to eat, and I was walking hard, not strolling, but it is possible.

 

 

I walked from Florence to Mason every day for lunch for a week.

There's a great little cafe and coffee shop in downtown Eugene, Oregon. Sometimes I stroll over there on my lunch break.

Today's anti-streetcar letter:

 

 

Streetcar follows stadium debacle

12/02/11 at 8:17am

•Written by Letters Editor •11Comments •Raise Your Voice

 

Cincinnati is done. It’s over. It started with the Democrats and their stadium fiasco. Now it’s going to finish with the extreme liberals on city council and the streetcar (“City Council: Rise of Young Professionals” Dec. 1). A once proud city has just been destroyed.

 

Tom Leasburg

Fairfield

 

I'm in disbelief that The Enquirer published this.  All three county commissioners in the late 1990s were Republicans.  There is definitely an effort by republicans to rewrite history in their favor -- despite heaps of written records to the contrary, they are convincing their followers that Democrats were on the county commission. 

but Jake, we've always been at war with Eurasia

Today's anti-streetcar letter:

 

 

Streetcar follows stadium debacle

12/02/11 at 8:17am

•Written by Letters Editor •11Comments •Raise Your Voice

 

Cincinnati is done. It’s over. It started with the Democrats and their stadium fiasco. Now it’s going to finish with the extreme liberals on city council and the streetcar (“City Council: Rise of Young Professionals” Dec. 1). A once proud city has just been destroyed.

 

Tom Leasburg

Fairfield

 

If you want to complain, Tom, the move into the city and vote. It was people like you that destroyed our cities, not people that actually understand them like most of City Council does.

 

This is coming from someone that lives in Columbus now, sure, but frankly our opinion up here is probably more important than of someone who lives in Fairfield on the matter of the streetcar. Suburbanites do not get to bully cities any more.

^ Also, Tom, the stadium funding was the brainchild of a Republican Hamilton County Commissioner and is a county issue.  Just saying.

Today's anti-streetcar letter:

 

 

Streetcar follows stadium debacle

12/02/11 at 8:17am

•Written by Letters Editor •11Comments •Raise Your Voice

 

Cincinnati is done. It’s over. It started with the Democrats and their stadium fiasco. Now it’s going to finish with the extreme liberals on city council and the streetcar (“City Council: Rise of Young Professionals” Dec. 1). A once proud city has just been destroyed.

 

Tom Leasburg

Fairfield

 

I'm in disbelief that The Enquirer published this.  All three county commissioners in the late 1990s were Republicans.  There is definitely an effort by republicans to rewrite history in their favor -- despite heaps of written records to the contrary, they are convincing their followers that Democrats were on the county commission. 

 

The Enquirer just trolls itself, dude. If they wrote a story about Laure Quinlivan's left tit turning into a monster and terrorizing people in Butler County, people would read it, and write in about it. I find it hilarious.

^ I smell a guest column by Civvik.

Google his name.  Nothing comes up -- in fact nobody in the country appears to have the last name Leasburg.  I've been wondering for some time if all these letters are written by Mark Miller. 

You'd think the Enquirer would verify people's identities before printing their letters. The little podunk paper in South Carolina I wrote a letter to in the early 90's certainly did before they ran it.

Google his name.  Nothing comes up -- in fact nobody in the country appears to have the last name Leasburg.  I've been wondering for some time if all these letters are written by Mark Miller.

 

I want VH1 or MTV to follow around Mark Miller for a week.  Just record his every move.  His reality show would be interesting

I bet he's hanging out backstage with Axl Rose right now.

^Hmm, so that's why every Guns 'N Roses set starts three hours late these days. Miller's limiting his transportation options.

A clip from COAST's life story:

A clip from COAST's life story:

 

Nice.  I've never met Mark Miller and I've heard he's a nice guy when not in his political mindframe.  However, this is how I envision him 24/7

 

Google his name.  Nothing comes up -- in fact nobody in the country appears to have the last name Leasburg.  I've been wondering for some time if all these letters are written by Mark Miller. 

 

There is no one in all of hamilton County registered to vote under the name Tom Leasburg, Thomas Leasburg or Leasburg with any first name.