Tom is referencing the fact that State Law made it illegal to pass any money, of any source, to the streetcar.  Unfortunately for Tom, this money never passes through the states, and instead goes directly to the local municipality.

 

EDIT: just noticed someone already said this.

 

Yep. I saw it too. Tom Luken doesn't know what area code he's in, so when he says something it's not worth the air he used to emit it. I am curious, however, what the others claim to have up their brown-shirted sleeves, other than their tobacco stains and gun-lovin' tattoos.

Tom is referencing the fact that State Law made it illegal to pass any money, of any source, to the streetcar.  Unfortunately for Tom, this money never passes through the states, and instead goes directly to the local municipality.

 

There's something that Finney might sue over. Plus of course the Blue Ash Airport sale. The guy is a shyster who is in the business of scamming the taxpayers with these lawsuits. He received a $150,000 settlement from the Hamilton County Commissioners this year alone.

 

Over on the Clerk of Court's website I saw that Finney is suing the City of Sharonville over a Freedom Of Information Act request that Mark Miller made of that City. Finney, ostensibly representing Mark Miller, is looking for any emails that Sharonville Economic Development Specialist Tammy Riddle (a CincyPac member) sent from her work email account that mention CincyPac and/or a long list of CincyPac members. They were not satisfied with the response that The City of Sharonville gave to them:

 

http://www.courtclerk.org/case_summary.asp?casenumber=C 1100734

 

Finney is going after CincyPac. Perhaps it's over the so-called "controversy" that Aja Roberto tried to start her resignation from CincyPac:

 

http://cincypackofelitists.blogspot.com/

 

FYI; Roberto is a member of a COAST aligned group, the Blue Chip Young Republicans, and recently became engaged to COAST member Charlie Norman. I believe that the Roberto affair is a well coordinated attack on CincyPac that is designed to end that group's effectiveness in local election endorsements. Look for Finney to file a lawsuit against CincyPac in the near future on Roberto's behalf, for slander, breach of contract, or whatever other pretense that Finney can find.

Maybe it's just the optimist in me, but if Sec. LaHood is coming to town for just a $10M grant it would seem that he has faith in the project. I take it as a good sign. The streetcar's in a great position.

 

As for the uptown route, I'm all for it, but if Banks to Findlay is all we're going to build at this time - we couldn't be better set for the future.

Look at this comment from one the the news sites. How can they even allow nonfactual posts like this?

 

Because the mainstream media is dying, preceded in death by the passing of journalism, and followed by a vacuum filled by hyperbole, entertainment and ignorance.

 

Mainstream media was always hyperbole, entertainment and the proliferation of ignorance and ideas of the powerful. Technology has made it easier to locate like-minded individuals and complain in unison so society notices more.

>the so-called "controversy" that Aja Roberto tried to start her resignation from CincyPac:

 

COAST is desperate to find a blonde Fox News girl to become their image.  Both Roberto and Catherine Smith-Mills seem eager to play that role but neither are any good at spouting the rhetoric. 

 

>the so-called "controversy" that Aja Roberto tried to start her resignation from CincyPac:

 

COAST is desperate to find a blonde Fox News girl to become their image.  Both Roberto and Catherine Smith-Mills seem eager to play that role but neither are any good at spouting the rhetoric.

 

 

Jake, more evidence of a Roberto/Finney connection; Roberto was in an auto accident in September and is suing. She is being represented by Bradley Gibson, who is one of Finney's young flunky associates at his firm:

 

http://www.courtclerk.org/case_summary.asp?sec=party&casenumber=A 1107740

 

http://www.fssp-law.com/attorneys/gibson/

 

Plus, as I previously stated, she just became engaged to COAST member, City of Cheviot Treasurer and all around local wingnut Charlie Norman. I hope that CincyPac knows what's coming around the corner.

 

Fox19 facebook page has the worst and most uneducated comments about this project.  Good Lord

Of all the cities I've lived in, I've never lived in a place where so much of the local political, business, and media establishment is actively trying to undermine the city's future viability. Portland keeps looking better and better.

I always assumed CincyCapell was another alias of a regular poster here. Guess I was wrong.

 

Welcome to UO. We love the streetcar, too.

Of all the cities I've lived in, I've never lived in a place where so much of the local political, business, and media establishment is actively trying to undermine the city's future viability. Portland keeps looking better and better.

 

I just left Ohio and stuff like this is one reason why.

Of all the cities I've lived in, I've never lived in a place where so much of the local political, business, and media establishment is actively trying to undermine the city's future viability. Portland keeps looking better and better.

 

I just left Ohio and stuff like this is one reason why.

 

Thanks! I've read the site many times, but I never joined until today.

For what it's worth, I've been to Portland a couple of times and prefer Cincy, even without the streetcar. The addition will rank Cincy higher, in my opinion.

Here's the latest tweet from Mark Miller:

 

 

@GOCOAST

Has City Manager elected to pursue foolhardy & illegal construction of Streetcar ON TOP of sewers? Not smart.

1 hour ago via Twitter for iPhone

 

Is this going to be their basis to make a legal challenge? as HamCo owns the sewer system, it's likely that GOPers Monzel (who is little more than a COAST puppet) & Hartmann would back them on such a claim. Likely Portune as well, who has proved himself to be a cowardly panderer to the suburbanites now that he's facing an actual challenger in 2012.

Of all the cities I've lived in, I've never lived in a place where so much of the local political, business, and media establishment is actively trying to undermine the city's future viability. Portland keeps looking better and better.

 

I just left Ohio and stuff like this is one reason why.

 

This is one of the reasons I LOVE Cincinnati.  Elections ACTUALLY matter here.  I can sway the vote by having conversations (while sometimes difficult) with neighbors.  Just remember to take a step away from the politics every once in a while to realize that this city IS NOT behind...we're always at the cusp of change.  I love this place and happily chose to live here over Minneapolis, Portland, Chicago, or any of the other "progressive" cities I've been to. 

 

Cheers to my fellow Cincinnatians for having more patience and determination than most Americans.  The day the streetcar starts operating will be a fantastic day.

What's the process of getting that bans for state funds taken off that amendment? We can really use those funds for phase 2. There is no good reason it should be or ever been there. The voters have spoken.

>construction of Streetcar ON TOP of sewers?

 

Aren't roads themselves ON TOP of sewers?  Not smart. 

For what it's worth, I've been to Portland a couple of times and prefer Cincy, even without the streetcar. The addition will rank Cincy higher, in my opinion.

 

I used to live down the road from Portland, and I've visited there several times. It's about more than just the streetcar. It's about living someplace with a mild climate, with the ocean and the mountains within a short drive, in a city that's largely made the right decisions about its future over the past several decades, where nobody gives a rat's ass which high school you went to, and a much more fertile architectural scene in which to build my practice.

 

I'm hoping to spend my next co-op in Portland or Seattle (for 5 months beginning in March) and gain some more experience working on transit-related projects and build up some professional connections. When I come back to Cincinnati in August I'll have about a year to decide where to go after grad school. I could then move back to the PNW, stay here in Cincinnati, or move elsewhere. But the whole "love it or leave it" mentality makes me want to choose the latter.

>construction of Streetcar ON TOP of sewers?

 

Aren't roads themselves ON TOP of sewers?  Not smart.

 

HA! True!! Anyway, as I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the sewers don't have to be moved, just the manholes to access them.

If COAST had been around during the cholera epidemics, they'd be fighting tooth-and-nail to block construction of the sewers as well. With the exact same stale arguments.

It took decades to get the Roebling Suspension Bridge built due to opposition from corrupt local conservative groups that were COAST's predecessors: http://cincinnati.com/blogs/ourhistory/2011/01/12/ohioans-resisted-suspension-bridge/

Business Courier running a story today about the city's plan to build the streetcar over the sewers that Hamilton County won't share in the cost to move. Monzel quoted that county taxpayers didn't vote on the streetcar, and it wouldn't have passed if it did. Which make me wonder if, say, all the new sewers in Greeen Township should have been put to a vote. How do you suppose that countywide vote would have gone?

 

My guess is that this is the basis of the theatened lawsuit.

 

City taking the position that it owns the streets and can do what it wants.

I can't believe that Monzel is actually doing this.  This is like that crazy ex-girlfriend who has your social security number and keeps shutting off your cell phone. 

"City leaders’ strong leadership on the streetcar issue, combined with voters’ rejection of Issue 48, an anti-streetcar measure on last month’s ballot, helped lift Cincinnati’s application from the hundreds submitted to the U.S. Department of Transportation, LaHood said."

Of all the cities I've lived in, I've never lived in a place where so much of the local political, business, and media establishment is actively trying to undermine the city's future viability. Portland keeps looking better and better.

 

I just left Ohio and stuff like this is one reason why.

 

This is one of the reasons I LOVE Cincinnati.  Elections ACTUALLY matter here.  I can sway the vote by having conversations (while sometimes difficult) with neighbors.  Just remember to take a step away from the politics every once in a while to realize that this city IS NOT behind...we're always at the cusp of change.  I love this place and happily chose to live here over Minneapolis, Portland, Chicago, or any of the other "progressive" cities I've been to. 

 

Cheers to my fellow Cincinnatians for having more patience and determination than most Americans.  The day the streetcar starts operating will be a fantastic day.

 

Having been to all of those cities (lived in Chicago for 2 years, family in Minneapolis), I can honestly say Cincinnati doesn't feel behind. Remember, Minneapolis has only recently created a train line of their own, so a lack of a train line (although regrettable) doesn't inherently mean a city is light-years behind other cities.

 

Keep up the good work!

- Identify the intersections of streetcar lines and sewers

- Assess the current condition of the affected assets (sewers, manholes, etc) and determine their normal replacement schedules, outside of the streetcar

- Value the affected assets as they are today, accounting for estimated remaining service life and maintenance; call this amount $X

- Subtract $X from $3M that the City is willing to pay.  This is the amount that the City is donating (positive) or stealing (negative) from the MSD ratepayers. 

 

Asset managers do this on a regular basis (or should).  The "value" step is important and will always be a combination of judgement and data, but it must and can be done. 

 

I'd bet most or all of this information has been available for a long time.  I wish the Business Courier and other news outlets would spend more time interviewing the asset managers and printing their maps, than talking to the likes of Finney and Monzel, and printing their opinions.

>construction of Streetcar ON TOP of sewers?

 

Aren't roads themselves ON TOP of sewers?  Not smart. 

 

These guys act like streetcars were just thought of yesterday and that this is the first streetcar to ever be built on top of a sewer system. In fact, most streetcar systems were built atop sewers, and most tracks are still there -- including in Cincinnati, in between the bricks just below the surface asphalt. And if they are concerned about streetcar service being temorarily disrupted by unplanned street/sewer repairs, we've had many decades experience with streetcars to come up with solutions. This was one of the most common -- a temporary track kept in storage that could be laid on top of the pavement within hours. This one is in Cleveland on St. Clair Avenue in 1944 to get around the after-effects of a natural gas explosion....

 

>construction of Streetcar ON TOP of sewers?

 

Aren't roads themselves ON TOP of sewers?  Not smart. 

 

These guys act like streetcars were just thought of yesterday and that this is the first streetcar to ever be built on top of a sewer system. In fact, most streetcar systems were built atop sewers, and most tracks are still there -- including in Cincinnati, in between the bricks just below the surface asphalt. And if they are concerned about streetcar service being temorarily disrupted by unplanned street/sewer repairs, we've had many decades experience with streetcars to come up with solutions. This was one of the most common -- a temporary track kept in storage that could be laid on top of the pavement within hours. This one is in Cleveland on St. Clair Avenue in 1944 to get around the after-effects of a natural gas explosion....

 

 

Ive never seen that. Thats pretty neat.

I love how the local tv media goes out of their way to include the word "Controversial" in every story.

 

'The controversial Cincinnati streetcar project has been controversial to the point that controversy has been created.  This controversy is surely controversial.  Here's Jack with more controversy on the controversial controversy"

 

 

>construction of Streetcar ON TOP of sewers?

 

Aren't roads themselves ON TOP of sewers?  Not smart. 

 

I suppose I don't understand the panic over this. When they were adding/replacing the water main along Madison Road and Dana Avenue this year, they had to completely tear out the roadway. This caused untold amount of disruptions and chaos as lanes shifted, plates were added to cover gaping holes, and the roadway became a filthy, filthy mess (sarcasm). Underneath Madison also exists sewer lines, natural gas lines, cable lines, and so forth. What isn't on an overhead wire is under the ground. It's no different if it is a streetcar.

 

The only acceptable solution is to simply construct dedicated rights-of-way for utilities.

 

 

Damn, right.

Business Courier running a story today about the city's plan to build the streetcar over the sewers that Hamilton County won't share in the cost to move. Monzel quoted that county taxpayers didn't vote on the streetcar, and it wouldn't have passed if it did. Which make me wonder if, say, all the new sewers in Green Township should have been put to a vote. How do you suppose that countywide vote would have gone?

 

My guess is that this is the basis of the theatened lawsuit.

 

I always thought one had to show specific damages (generally in the form of some sort of economic loss) unique to the individual in order for a suit such as this to move forward.  That's why, "I don't want my taxes to pay for such and such" suits don't move forward.  I don't see how an individual taxpayer can show this.  Also, the County and the various local governments share concurrent jurisdiction; as your example pointed out, the distinction that Monzel talks about is meaningless and doesn't seem to have any legal relevance.  Cincinnati residents didn't "vote on the streetcar" either, they voted on two charter amendments that would have forbidden, etc.  This all seems like bunk, but if they file with a sympathetic judge I suppose anything can happen.  Obviously it is just a delaying tactic.

I can't believe that Monzel is actually doing this.  This is like that crazy ex-girlfriend who has your social security number and keeps shutting off your cell phone. 

 

That's hilarious and so true.  These crazy people are never going to stop attacking this project.  We just have to learn to get used to it I suppose.  I mean, at this point there is precious little they can do to stop this project from being built right?

 

Here's the business journal article John was talking about: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2011/12/16/newest-cincinnati-streetcar-plan-has.html

 

And there's this little piece as well:  http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2011/12/cincinnati-streetcar-news-ran-the.html

 

The letters that they link to from the MSD officials are interesting.  I can see why the opposition is

trying to get these out there.  Its obvious from the tone of these letters that MSD is not supportive of this project at all and are obviously of the same frame of mind as the COASTers

Here is a video and some pics of streetcars and sewers from Germany.

 

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675056095_reconstruction-work_reconstruct-streetcar-tracks_damaged-buildings_civilians-pass-tile-bricks

Speaking of Germany, here's the obvious solution to the "problem" of having streetcar tracks running on top of public utilities:

 

^^^ This is completely stupid. I understand their frustration with the city, but the county commissioners have kind of forced the city into a position to play hardball. Otherwise the city would be footing the bill for sewer improvements which MSD would have to do with or without the streetcar, which is obviously absurd.

 

The county commissioners have decided to be vindictive, at the expense of everyone involved -- especially MSD ratepayers.

 

Oh well, this too will pass.

 

^ Wow, and people think catenary is ugly!

I didn't think it was appropriate for the MSD employee to express to the media his strong opposition to the streetcar. It's a local government entity, and he's no politician. I found it extremely tacky.

There's no doubt in my mind that Mark Miller, Tom Luken, Chris Smitherman, Chris Monzel, Darryl Parks, and Doc Thompson stay up at all hours of the night texting/calling each other about how to stop the streetcar. 

 

It seems to consume them all the time. 

I didn't think it was appropriate for the MSD employee to express to the media his strong opposition to the streetcar. It's a local government entity, and he's no politician. I found it extremely tacky.

 

I didn't think he did. Those were internal emails that Coast got through Open records requests.

The emails were boring.  There was nothing there that I didn't expect. 

 

My main worry at this point with going ahead with construction without moving the sewers is that the message needs to be controlled when it's time to do work and it's more expensive than it would have been otherwise.  It's impossible to know what the political or media climate will be in 5 years, but my guess is that in 10 years OTR redevelopment will be so advanced that the old anti-streetcar narrative will be laughed at. 

- Identify the intersections of streetcar lines and sewers

- Assess the current condition of the affected assets (sewers, manholes, etc) and determine their normal replacement schedules, outside of the streetcar

- Value the affected assets as they are today, accounting for estimated remaining service life and maintenance; call this amount $X

- Subtract $X from $3M that the City is willing to pay.  This is the amount that the City is donating (positive) or stealing (negative) from the MSD ratepayers. 

 

Asset managers do this on a regular basis (or should).  The "value" step is important and will always be a combination of judgement and data, but it must and can be done. 

 

I'd bet most or all of this information has been available for a long time.  I wish the Business Courier and other news outlets would spend more time interviewing the asset managers and printing their maps, than talking to the likes of Finney and Monzel, and printing their opinions.

 

The Business Courier put X at $6 million for required sewer work. By your formula, the City is trying to steal $3 million from the Hamilton County rate payers. People tend to resist having things stolen from them; hence the conflict. I'm surprised that the source of this conflict is not better understood on this board. The County Commissioners are not intentionally trying to impede the streetcar project; they are just trying to protect their own budget, in the way that anyone would. It's pretty clear that the streetcar does NOT have widespread support outside of the core, and the County Commissioners are protecting their self-interest as politicians as well.

 

Which make me wonder if, say, all the new sewers in Greeen Township should have been put to a vote. How do you suppose that countywide vote would have gone?

 

Voters weren't given a chance to vote directly on the new sewers in Green Township, but they elected the County Commissioners, namely Bedinghaus, Dowlin, and Guckenberger, who approved the new sewers in Green Township in 1993.

Wait, I take that back: Bedinghaus wasn't elected, he was appointed when Steve Chabot moved on to Congress.

 

 

I suppose I don't understand the panic over this. When they were adding/replacing the water main along Madison Road and Dana Avenue this year, they had to completely tear out the roadway. This caused untold amount of disruptions and chaos as lanes shifted, plates were added to cover gaping holes, and the roadway became a filthy, filthy mess (sarcasm). Underneath Madison also exists sewer lines, natural gas lines, cable lines, and so forth. What isn't on an overhead wire is under the ground. It's no different if it is a streetcar.

 

 

The overhead wire is a huge concern. In the event of a sewer collapse, there is a risk that excavation equipment used to repair the sewer will come in contact with the overhead wire. There is also the question of who will pay for repairs, which will undoubtedly be more expensive with a streetcar than without one.

 

Historically, excavation was done by hand with shovels. It's hard to find a contractor willing to dig by hand today, and probably not easy to find one willing to operate equipment under the wire.

 

By the way, the historic streetcar rails in Madison Road were a major factor in design of the watermain alignment. Potential utiliy and streetcar rail conflicts are not to be taken lightly, and the streetcar rails in Madison haven't even been used in 60 years! Utilities do not with to mess around with streetcar rails if they can be avoided.

 

 

 

The only acceptable solution is to simply construct dedicated rights-of-way for utilities.

 

 

Or alternatively, constructing dedicated rights-of-way for streetcars. (But then we would probably call it light rail instead of a streetcar.)

 

Traditionally, utilities take an informal ownership of "lanes" in a street, and it is not considered good practice to construct a utility vertically on top of another one. The reason for this is because the higher (less deep) utility will prevent access to the lower (deeper) utility. Building a utility on top of another one is considered rude and shows an unwillingness to cooperate. It is no surprise that the streetcar project has led to a lot of animosity between the city and utilities.

 

Earlier in this thread I pointed out the difficulty of constructing streetcar rails in a street, as opposed to constructing streetcar rails in a private right-of-way. New track in a graded right-of-way costs about $1 million per mile. Thus, it can be assumed that new track in a street will start at $1 million per mile and only go up from there depending on the the cost to deal with the utilities. Another way to present this is that the city could get a lot more miles of track for $100 million if the track is in a graded right-of-way and not in a street. I realize that we don't just have graded right-of-ways with desired routes laying around, though. My point is that utilities are a major project concern, not just an excuse to delay the project. The COAST folks may be jumping at the opportunity to cause trouble, but the utility issues were there from the start.

 

These guys act like streetcars were just thought of yesterday and that this is the first streetcar to ever be built on top of a sewer system.

 

First one in Cincinnati in 60 years, which is long enough to lose any local experience with streetcars. Might as well have been thought of yesterday.

 

In fact, most streetcar systems were built atop sewers...

 

Many sewers in Cincinnati - indeed, many utilities - were built around the streetcar rails, since the rails were there first. But yes, I agree that there were also many instances of streetcar rails built on top of utilities.

 

We've had many decades experience with streetcars to come up with solutions.

 

Again, maybe in other cities, and maybe in Cincinnati prior to 1951, but practically no one in Cincinnati has that experience. The lack of experience with streetcars - indeed, the lack of experience with any kind of passenger rail - is probably part of the reason for so much opposition. It's the fear of the unknown. Does Cleveland have as much fear? You might not believe this, but there's a generation of Cincinnatians who have never been on a train of any kind, unless you count the zoo train.

 

This was one of the most common -- a temporary track kept in storage that could be laid on top of the pavement within hours. This one is in Cleveland on St. Clair Avenue in 1944 to get around the after-effects of a natural gas explosion....

 

If you think that's neat, you should see the temporary cribwork that elevated streetcar rails above Ohio river flood waters. All of that temporary construction is labor-intensive, and is probably more expensive today than in 1944.

 

Historically, Cincinnati had a fleet of trucks and qualified people to drive around and troubleshoot streetcar problems. One of my favorites is a temporary track that elevated the streetcar rails over a fire hose. The team of troubleshooters also pushed trackless trollies back on route whenever one lost contact with the overhead wires.

 

In 1930, the cost of these trucks could be spread over many miles of revenue track, and 300,000 daily riders, using an economy of scale. It's much harder financially to be prepared for emergencies when the system is so small. Do we need to add a couple of trucks, temporay track, and qualified people to stand by in case of emergency to the project cost estimate?

 

Speaking of Germany, here's the obvious solution to the "problem" of having streetcar tracks running on top of public utilities:

 

I rode one of those in Germany. It was automated (driverless.) Granted, sky-trains are ugly and detract from the pedestrian experience on the street below, but consider the benefits:

1. Lack of utility conflicts

2. Not impeded by traffic, nor impedes traffic

3. No need to pay a driver on automated systems, which is a major operation cost savings.

4. Less expensive than a subway in most cases.

 

Interesting that from the photo it appears that the wheel and track system is practically the same as any other railway, the only difference being that the track is suspended above the street and the vehicle is suspended from the wheels. Thanks for posting. 

 

 

- Identify the intersections of streetcar lines and sewers

- Assess the current condition of the affected assets (sewers, manholes, etc) and determine their normal replacement schedules, outside of the streetcar

- Value the affected assets as they are today, accounting for estimated remaining service life and maintenance; call this amount $X

- Subtract $X from $3M that the City is willing to pay.  This is the amount that the City is donating (positive) or stealing (negative) from the MSD ratepayers. 

 

Asset managers do this on a regular basis (or should).  The "value" step is important and will always be a combination of judgement and data, but it must and can be done. 

 

I'd bet most or all of this information has been available for a long time.  I wish the Business Courier and other news outlets would spend more time interviewing the asset managers and printing their maps, than talking to the likes of Finney and Monzel, and printing their opinions.

 

The Business Courier put X at $6 million for required sewer work. By your formula, the City is trying to steal $3 million from the Hamilton County rate payers. People tend to resist having things stolen from them; hence the conflict. I'm surprised that the source of this conflict is not better understood on this board. The County Commissioners are not intentionally trying to impede the streetcar project; they are just trying to protect their own budget, in the way that anyone would. It's pretty clear that the streetcar does NOT have widespread support outside of the core, and the County Commissioners are protecting their self-interest as politicians as well.

 

Which make me wonder if, say, all the new sewers in Greeen Township should have been put to a vote. How do you suppose that countywide vote would have gone?

 

Voters weren't given a chance to vote directly on the new sewers in Green Township, but they elected the County Commissioners, namely Bedinghaus, Dowlin, and Guckenberger, who approved the new sewers in Green Township in 1993.

Wait, I take that back: Bedinghaus wasn't elected, he was appointed when Steve Chabot moved on to Congress.

 

Thanks for posting.

 

 

With all due respect, you are wrong.

 

The truth is that the head of the MSD has agreed that the ancient sewers along the streetcar route need to be replaced/upgraded, and that the best and most cost efficient time to do that is when the streets are already torn open for the streetcar construction. Also, the City was offering to pay $3 million towards the costs of those upgrades, but the county Commissioners spit in their faces, for reasons of pure political posturing and pandering to the anti-streetcar crowd. The CC's irresponsible actions were guaranteed to cost MSD and County ratepayers more money down the line. Also, although Cincinnati has not had experience with streetcars for some decades, many other American (as well as international) cities have had that experience, and their expertise is freely available to Cincinnati's technocrats in this electronic information age. As for green township (and elsewhere) sewer projects, no, we in the City - who are in fact Hamilton County residents and taxpayers - have never had a say or input on those projects. Just as we have not had input or veto power over the free HCSD services that the Townships have been receiving fore many years now, police services that those of us in the City subsidize through our property taxes.

 

Kevin Osborn at City Beat has an excellent takedown of Monzel and his fellow commissioner's actions regarding MSD:

 

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-2386-monzels_motion_may_b.html

Eighth and State, it doesn't matter how long winded you make your post about the sewer conflict or how you try to rationalize it. What it comes down to is more dirty politics from the opposition. Somehow we've been able to build hundreds of rail projects in other American cities without these nonsense concerns.

 

Are you playing devil's advocate or do you really believe all that stuff you just said. It's nonsense. What if a sewer collapses and they have to do work under the wire. Good point! Yeah, we shouldn't build it. I'm gonna stop driving as well, cause what if an overhead powerline falls and lands on my truck like in that Andy Griffith episode?

 

Eight and State logic is why it takes so long for anything to get done in this town.

Eighth and State, it doesn't matter how long winded you make your post about the sewer conflict or how you try to rationalize it. What it comes down to is more dirty politics from the opposition. Somehow we've been able to build hundreds of rail projects in other American cities without these nonsense concerns.

 

Are you playing devil's advocate or do you really believe all that stuff you just said. It's nonsense. What if a sewer collapses and they have to do work under the wire. Good point! Yeah, we shouldn't build it. I'm gonna stop driving as well, cause what if an overhead powerline falls and lands on my truck like in that Andy Griffith episode?

 

Eight and State logic is why it takes so long for anything to get done in this town.

 

 

 

 

What Gordon said X 1000'd

Again, maybe in other cities, and maybe in Cincinnati prior to 1951, but practically no one in Cincinnati has that experience.

 

Which is why I'm sharing that knowledge with you. And it's why people travel for business or pleasure, to see what other places offer, what they have done and are doing. Except apparently among the naysayers who seem to believe that if it doesn't already exist, then it probably wasn't worth doing in the first place!

 

The lack of experience with streetcars - indeed, the lack of experience with any kind of passenger rail - is probably part of the reason for so much opposition. It's the fear of the unknown. Does Cleveland have as much fear? You might not believe this, but there's a generation of Cincinnatians who have never been on a train of any kind, unless you count the zoo train.

 

Of course I believe this. I deal with this situation virtually every day in my job, including in Cleveland. But when the opposition makes it clear they have no experience with passenger rail, regardless of type, then you either try to give them that experience (as John has done with his junkets to the Pacific Northwest) or for those who prefer to remain inexperienced, your only option is to isolate them and continue to grow your own ranks.

 

Ultimately, and unless COAST gets a law passed that prohibits travel outside of Greater Cincinnati, the opposition will lose. Too many people are acquiring rail and transit experiences from other cities and returning to ask that lifestyle-altering question:  how can we do that here?

^ I'm fortunate to part of a worldwide network of rail professionals -- why I'm in it, I dunno -- and have been able to follow news about rail developments on several continents very closely over many years now, and what Ken says above is so true. They are losing everywhere, perhaps not at first, but nevertheless losing. It may take 18 years to get the first little streetcar line built in Cincinnati, or 28 years to get rail in Austin, or four losing votes before the overwhelming 2-1 vote for rail in Phoenix, but eventually we win. No city that has gone down the path of building rail has ever turned around and gone back. They do get stalled for a while, like Cincinnati between 2002 and 2006, but eventually they regroup and march on.

 

In the United States, the only areas where rail has not penetrated deeply these days are the Industrial Midwest the Deep South. Every little bit of progress like the Cincinnati Streetcar just chips away at the remaining holdouts.

 

The COASTers of the world are fighting a long-running and losing battle. They spend a lot of political capital opposing these projects, and they almost always win in the early stages, often by wide margins. But a seed gets planted, people travel around the country and abroad and, sooner or later, they begin to understand the benefits. The opponents' champions are eventually discredited and exhausted, and few new ones ever join the cause. Meanwhile, how many new faces have become politcally active on account of the Cincinnati Streetcar and may now be having a broader impact? Ask Wayne Lippert, Amy Murray or Leslie Ghiz.

 

What's really ironic is that by putting all their chips on rail opposition, groups like COAST appear strident and lose support for other initiatives they would like to pursue. Things like pursuing the sewer-relocation issue down the rabbit hole to no avail may come back to bite them. Now, apparently, sewers are political things. OK, fine. So maybe the city of Cincinnati now starts to question sewer expansions as a way to halt sprawl.

 

As fuel prices rise, cities repopulate, and people continue to travel and talk to people in other cities, their road is going to get even steeper. On the other hand, we now have a wind at our back.

Ultimately, and unless COAST gets a law passed that prohibits travel outside of Greater Cincinnati, the opposition will lose.

 

LORD, don't give them any more ideas!

Btw- On UrbanCincy COAST is threatening a new lawsuit.    Somebody must be low on cash!!! Rent is probably due- Hyde Park properties aren't cheap!

Your trips out to Portland with Cincinnatians have certainly helped, John. One of my old landlords went out there years ago, probably with you (I neglected to ask) and came back impressed.

We need to get Mark Miller and Tom Luken out there

Your trips out to Portland with Cincinnatians have certainly helped, John. One of my old landlords went out there years ago, probably with you (I neglected to ask) and came back impressed.

 

A trip to Portland won Si Leis over.

We need to get Mark Miller and Tom Luken out there

anywhere

actually a deserted island would be prefrable