Ahhh and what's worse is how wrong he is. It's Public information about all the financing of the Cincinnati Southern Railway Company. It PROFITED $19 million for the City of Cincinnati last year, and $18 mill the year before. It's valued at over $1 billion.  It has posted a profit every year since at least the early 1980's.

Profit??? for the public good?????  sounds like pinko commies running things!  :weird:

 

 

He's about 1 day away from saying

 

'Its pretty safe to say that if this streetcar is built, we are all going to die and the terrorists will win'

 

Did anyone point out on his show that he's full of Bullish?

Business Courier making all of their Streetcar articles "Premium".

 

 

Wanted: Streetcar builders. Experienced applicants only

Business Courier by Dan Monk, Senior Staff Reporter

 

Companies interested in contracts to build Cincinnatis planned streetcar system might want to start looking for a bidding partner now.

 

Don Gindling, principal construction engineer for the project, said the city will want specialized skill sets when it invites bids for $34 million in streetcar construction services later this year.

 

These skill sets include the specialized knowledge required for installing T-rails and catenary networks, which are overhead wires that would power the streetcar. The $110 million project includes an initial phase with 16 stops between Fountain Square and Findlay Market, along with a maintenance shed for railcars that will likely...

 

Cont (Premium Article)

 

A couple take aways from that article:

 

1) We are for sure using a system with overhead wires rather than the battery powered idea that was proposed not too long ago.  I had never heard any final decision made about that, but since the article specifically mentioned catenary  wires, I'm guessing that's what we're going with (a good choice, imo).

 

2) Getting local contracters involved could be an opportunity to widen the base of supporters.  Showing people that they can directly econmomically benefit from the project could be really important.

Yeah it sounded like contractors are chomping at the bit for this thing to get started.

^ I'm guessing the battery-powered cars -- proposals were submitted by two makers -- are out.

Streetcar groundbreaking update.  Utility work to start

 

Probably for the best.  The last thing this project needs is to be experimenting with unproven and potentially unreliable technology.  The naysayers would have a field day with that. 

Probably for the best.  The last thing this project needs is to be experimenting with unproven and potentially unreliable technology.  The naysayers would have a field day with that. 

Like Reardon metal?

Real quick, the Southern Railroad has *always* earned money for the city above its bond payments, which ended around 1940.  This is back when municipalities sold 50-year bonds, before inflation totally restructured the bond market.  Those 50-year bonds used to have an option to refinance at year 25, which usually helped a city, like how the subway bonds were refinanced at something ridiculously low like 1.5% during WWII. 

 

In the late 1940s stae law was changed to permit the Southern Railroad revenue, which was a modest $1-2 million annually, to back Cincinnati's expressway construction bonds.  The revenue didn't increase substantially until 1987, when the city won a lawsuit against Norfolk-Southern and was awarded $8 million which paid for Bicentennial projects.  Annual lease payments more than doubled and have earned the city at least $300 million since.

 

The city owns the land, not the track, and NS pays what amounts to property tax on use of Cincinnati's land, even though it is in two other states (it's not technically Cincinnati's land though).  The whole reason Cincinnati built the railroad and not a private business is because it was thought that it only be profitable with the low interest rate of municipal bonds.  That prediction made by Civil War-era businessmen turned out to be more or less correct. 

^ actually the city owns the entire railway as well, and leases it to the Cincinnati New Orleans and Texas Pacific Railway (wholly owned by Norfolk Southern) under a long term agreement (expiring in ~2026 with option to renew) There are a few portions where  Norfolk Southern added double track in the 1990's so Perhaps they own those portions.

 

But thanks For the great background!

 

Additionally, COAST's ancestors forced a ballot issue to sell the railway just before the turn of the 20th century for a few million dollars. It failed by less than 500 votes (population of Cincy was the same size back then).

 

Shows the foolishness in selling public assets for 1 time payoffs.

 

---- btw, great news about the Streetcar!

Streetcar groundbreaking update.  Utility work to start

 

So, will the city be announcing this formally and making a big deal out of it, or are they just going to start utility work unannounced?

The Cincinnati Streetcar project has started. It started last year. The groundbreaking is just a public recognition of that.

The Cincinnati Streetcar project has started. It started last year. The groundbreaking is just a public recognition of that.

 

What a pleasant sentence to read. 

Next friday, 2pm.  The Smitherman/Winburn show at City Hall to discuss the streetcar.

 

 

This is where we need to all show up.  Smitherman will lose it if he is outnumbered and it will make for great TV.  He is going to put his dramatics to good use. 

 

Tell everyone you know and bring video cameras because this will be quite the infamous spectacle.

>There are a few portions where  Norfolk Southern added double track in the 1990's so Perhaps they own those portions.

 

The legal arrangement by which the railroad is improved is complicated, although the City of Cincinnati is never exposed to any expenses.  There was a huge effort in the 1960-70s to modernize the line which eliminated 24 of the line's 27 tunnels and did work necessary to permit container double-stacking.  I have read a fair amount on the railroad but don't claim to be an expert so the city might in fact still own the track, but legally is not responsible for spending any money on it whatsoever. 

 

>Additionally, COAST's ancestors forced a ballot issue to sell the railway just before the turn of the 20th century for a few million dollars. It failed by less than 500 votes (population of Cincy was the same size back then).

 

Right, the story that is told is that Boss Cox personally stood to profit mightily from this sale.  The machine tricked the hell out of the population but not quite enough to force the sale.  Cox's legacy is quite checkered as it is a mix of truly beneficial projects and ones that stood to benefit him alone. 

 

 

Has someone told Smitherman and Winburn?

 

The Cincinnati Streetcar project has started. It started last year. The groundbreaking is just a public recognition of that.

Found on a Indianapolis blog following the defeat of a bill that would have authorized Indy to put a transit issue on the fall ballot:

 

"You have to be against transit and for highways if you’re a Republican. That’s clearly the stance the GOP has chosen at all levels of government, so that’s what Hoosiers are going to get as long as they keep electing these guys. Move to Chicago, NYC, San Fransisco, soon Cincinnati, Houston, etc., if you want transit. That’s what these guys are saying by refusing Federal dollars so give them what they want."

Nice!!!  Yes, please! Indy, send us your tired (of driving), your poor (from high gas prices), your yearning (for transit).

Your huddled masses yearning for mass transit! :wink:

From the news reports, downtown Indy could have used some streetcars this weekend with the Super Bowl in town.

From the news reports, downtown Indy could have used some streetcars this weekend with the Super Bowl in town.

 

Downtown Indianapolis is like a hard shoe.  Large footprint, hardly any ridges.  A streetcar would have helped get around such an open area.  Maybe the Cincinnati Streetcar will make Bud Selig think of a valid reason why he hasn't and has no plan to put an MLB All-Star game in ten-year old Great American Ballpark.

From the news reports, downtown Indy could have used some streetcars this weekend with the Super Bowl in town.

 

Downtown Indianapolis is like a hard shoe.  Large footprint, hardly any ridges.  A streetcar would have helped get around such an open area.  Maybe the Cincinnati Streetcar will make Bud Selig think of a valid reason why he hasn't and has no plan to put an MLB All-Star game in ten-year old Great American Ballpark.

 

^2015 is when we get it.  Some friends of mine who work for the reds tell me this.  The Reds organization and the city don't want it before then because they want the Banks, casino, streetcar, and a few other projects complete and operational.  MLB is on board too. 

^Are you sure about that? Washington has not had one for 40 years.

^Are you sure about that? Washington has not had one for 40 years.

 

Uh, yeah, because Washington didn't have a baseball team for 34 of those years -- 1971-2005.

Woo!!! That's great news! Wow. 2015 will be pretty awesome.  But nearly as awesome as if we had PRT like that one guy said... :P

 

I kid, I'll trade PRT around DT for the Banks, the casino, the streetcar, and the All star game any day.

Buzzkill:

 

<b>Report: Nationals to host 2015 All-star Game</b>

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2010/06/report_nationals_will_host_201.html

 

Unusualfire may have been right.

How many cars will be on the streetcar? What's the max going up the hill?

How many cars will be on the streetcar? What's the max going up the hill?

 

This is the size of the streetcar we will get (could have minor size changes depending on builder).  The streetcars won't be multiple cars connected (similar to light rail or heavy rail), but instead are individual vehicles. 

 

Original plan had 7 (when we were going to Corryville) shortened plan announced 5, it's likely the new route could potentially have 6. 

 

By max do you mean speed?  I would guess 20mph up the hill (speed limit on Vine is 25 but most people drive closer to 35. 

 

Also, I would feel confident saying that we won't be going up Vine until AFTER the whole route is open for a little while unless we get more grants. 

The reason i ask is because the grade is pretty steep.  Being that it's powered by electric. I hope it would have enough power to make it up the hill with the max amount of cars full of people. Then coming down i would want it over whelmed with the weight coming down the hill.

The weight issue and grades were discussed a long time ago (I can't even begin to guess how far back to look, probably pages 300-something).  But point being is that's why Vine Street was chosen for the climb up the hill, because despite the narrowness issue of the street, it's the shallowest grade of all the possible routes that aren't totally out of the way.  There's also technology like magnetic track brakes that solves the problem of runaway cars on the downhill.     

 

I do hope that when they build this first phase that they still construct the turnouts from Race onto Elder and Findlay.  That way when the extension is able to be built, they don't have to tear into the existing track and interrupt service. 

I do hope that when they build this first phase that they still construct the turnouts from Race onto Elder and Findlay.  That way when the extension is able to be built, they don't have to tear into the existing track and interrupt service. 

 

That's a great point! I hadn't even thought of it. 

Buzzkill:

 

<b>Report: Nationals to host 2015 All-star Game</b>

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2010/06/report_nationals_will_host_201.html

 

Unusualfire may have been right.

 

Not trying to get too off topic, but that "report" is based off a tweet and was published in 2010. In last years off season there were rumors that the Reds were in heavy talks to host the 2013 game that is now going to NYC. 2015 hasn't been officially decided. In my personal (an obviously Reds fan biased) opinion - Washington needs to go to the back of the line. However, that's a city with the infrastructure and large media market that would make such an event ideal. Miami is also in talks - again, a large media market.

 

The streetcar would certainly be a huge asset to hosting the all star game, especially that it will now go right by the ballpark. Cincinnati needs to be considered and I think the amount of projects we will have completed around the stadium and downtown by then will be big sellers. We proved our worth already by hosting the Civil Rights Game twice in a row and now we have the World Choir Games coming.

 

For me, the issue of the all star game highlights why I feel it was extremely important that the streetcar reach The Banks/GABP area. Even if only going to 2nd street, that area has a MASSIVE parking garage and is a hotbed for people who come in form outside the city for a night of fun. Soon they'll be able to park once and hop on the streetcar and stay downtown even longer. True, they could've done this with it being at Fountain Square, but the fact that as you walk up to the game - thousands are going to see the streetcar crowded with people and that it's a success is going to be a "home run" for the perception of this project.

Sorry if there already is a map, but this thread is pretty extensive.  But does anyone have a map of the current streetcar route planned?  I think it is awesome that it will be going down to The Banks now!

http://cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/streetcar_travel.cfm

I just hope Cincinnati actually gets off its ass and starts building something. While I have had my reservations, enough is enough and now it is time to get things done. If they don't get busy soon I will not live long enough to see whether it is successful or not. Like most government projects if they say 2 you can figure 5 years. By that time many people have forgotten the original objective. I think that is what they are banking on.

Buzzkill:

 

<b>Report: Nationals to host 2015 All-star Game</b>

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2010/06/report_nationals_will_host_201.html

 

Unusualfire may have been right.

 

We will just have to wait and see.  KC this year.  TBD 2013 and so on...

I just hope Cincinnati actually gets off its ass and starts building something.

 

With all due respect, Cincinnati has been off its ass for years. We've been delayed not by some conspiracy where the government is "banking on us" to "forget the original objective," but by two ballot initiatives and a Governor whose popularity declines daily.

 

While I have had my reservations, enough is enough and now it is time to get things done.

 

If you read back a few pages in this thread (or tread through all of it), you can see the progress that has been made and is coming along. A few have even hinted that groundbreaking will be this month.

 

If they don't get busy soon I will not live long enough to see whether it is successful or not. Like most government projects if they say 2 you can figure 5 years.

 

Are you planning on dying within the very near future?

^ as you can see from his Post count, Kj has not been posting on here for years, and only insiders are aware how close this project is to breaking ground. The average person does not know we'll be starting in a matter of weeks

 

Regards to "dying" I'm pretty sure it's a sarcatic reference to his age. Not everyone on here is in their 20's or 30's.

 

Rest assured, this project is moving forward.

You only have to read back 1 page to see the status of this project:

The Cincinnati Streetcar project has started. It started last year. The groundbreaking is just a public recognition of that.

To 99% of people "starting" means ground breaking.  Hell, I won't even say its started until groundbreaking. I still say its going to happen & will start soon.  By that logic it started when the bids were issued... Or when the negotiations started for utilities.  Which is all sort of true- but no one will believe it until a road is ripped up.

Well sure. But if you go By the loan ordinances you can say the project started in May 2010. Or when the utility negotiations started so eary 2011. Or when issue 9 failed.

 

Since the project "started" in 2007 you could argue that's when it started.

 

The more important part is that since nov 8 2011 it Wont be stopped.

The more important part is that since nov 8 2011 it Wont be stopped.

 

Agreed!

Mallory headed to D.C. for Streetcar Summit

 

Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory travels this week to the 3rd Annual Streetcar Summit in Washington, D.C., where he will share strategies used by the city to develop its streetcar plan.

 

Cincinnati City Council’s Wednesday meeting was cancelled, as meetings often are when he’s out of town.

 

While there, Mallory plans to meet with officials from the Department of Transportation, the Federal Transit Authority and the Department of Housing and Urban Development, according to his spokesman, Jason Barron. Mallory is not listed on the draft agenda as a presenter.

 

Cont

Duke Energy: We Won't Move Utility Lines For Streetcar Unless City Pays

 

 

http://www.local12.com/content/breaking_news/story/Duke-Energy-We-Wont-Move-Utility-Lines-For/CuOU7k3jMUOIQc-OewuVxw.cspx#.TzK5GdKwCac.twitter

 

There may be a major roadblock toward construction of the Cincinnati Streetcar. Duke Energy today sent a letter to Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory saying the company will not move their underground utility lines unless the city agrees to pay the full cost.

 

The cost for moving the lines comes to about $18.7 million.  Duke Energy also wants the city to promise to have an eight foot separation between the streetcar and the utility lines so they can work safely on the lines as the streetcar is running.

 

Duke goes on to say they support the streetcar project but they don't want their customers to have to pay the cost of moving the lines.

 

Ironically, Mayor Mallory is in Washington DC, attending a streetcar summit.  Local 12's Jeff Hirsh is gathering more on this developing story and will have an update on Local 12 News First at Four.

 

Duke wants the city pay full costs. I thought they had an agreement last week?

....and Dan Monk wieghs in

 

 

Duke Energy won't pay to relocate utilities for Cincinnati streetcar

Business Courier by Dan Monk and Lucy May, Courier senior staff reporters

Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2012, 12:43pm EST

 

The Cincinnati Streetcar plan has a new $13 million hole in its budget.

In a letter to Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory delivered today, Duke Energy Ohio and Kentucky President Julie Janson said the utility will not bear any of the $18.7 million needed to relocate Duke’s utilities to make way for the streetcar project.

The city has $6 million budgeted for the Duke utility work and has been negotiating with the gas and electric company for the past two years regarding the other costs.

 

Full article

 

[removed full article text]

^ they didn't have an agreement. For some reason a lot of people misread the Biz Courier article and states there was an agreement.

 

One of the biggest disagreements beyond cost is that Duke wants utilities moved 8 feet from the line, although that's part of why cost is so high on their estimate.

Duke wants the city pay full costs. I thought they had an agreement last week?

 

No, they actually never had an agreement. The Cincinnati Business Courier did publish a story saying that working out an agreement with Duke is now the last hurdle for the project to clear.

 

I wonder what legal grounds Duke has to stand on here. Maybe they can force the city to pick up all of the costs, but can they really dictate how much of a separation? Where does the eight-foot number come from - or is it just an arbitrary number?

Duke wants the city pay full costs. I thought they had an agreement last week?

 

That's what I read too.