February 11, 201213 yr >Duke hangs people in plastic buckets over automobiles driven by 16-year-olds every day. Plus, Toonces is out there, somewhere:
February 11, 201213 yr "They are going to look silly when this argument is done with." I feel that you are underestimating the importance of this issue. Historically, the courts have sided with the electric utility when safety clearances have become an issue. An example of a previous case is when someone constructed a house too close to overhead transmission lines. The courts have called for demolition of the house based on clearance standards presented by the utility.
February 11, 201213 yr ^ You know if any lawsuit come it would be the people of Cincinnati against Duke. Not just one home owner, since this would be public transportation.
February 11, 201213 yr That's pretty much standard procedure on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems when trains pass through work zones. The difference is that work crews on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems are employed by the same entity as the driver of the train. That is, the rules can be laid out and both the construction crew and the driver will follow them. Put yourself in the position of a work crew superintendant. What if the streetcar doesn't stop, and a Duke employee gets killed? Better have some legal recourse ahead of time to protect oneself. In the case of the streetcar, the Duke employees have no guarantee that the streetcar will actually stop. You may think that this is a silly argument, but gas and electric employees have extremely strict safety procedures, to the point where devising a safety plan to perform some task often takes longer than performing the task itself. In practice, this idea would probably require a legal agreement between Duke and the streetcar operator, and that agreement itself could take a year or more to draft, considering all the beauracracy on both sides. Railroad rights-of-way are strictly controlled. Work crews are often protected by a derail device, which will throw the train off the track if its gets too close. By comparison, streets are a free-for-all.
February 11, 201213 yr Not exactly rocket science...but if somebody wants to spend the time--Google Earth actually has high-enough-res. photography in a lot of streetcar cities that you can find manhole covers...and probably utility excavation work somewhere if you look hard enough... This is Portland, located by scanning their hi-res aerials for manhole covers, then switching to street view when a circular object is spotted.
February 11, 201213 yr ^It would be more helpful if the specific utility was known. It could be a city-owned utility, and it could even be part of the streetcar system, such as communications lines connected to trackside signage or ticket kiosks. Just sayin'. I wish I had construction drawings from the Portland streetcar on hand for comparison.
February 11, 201213 yr "They are going to look silly when this argument is done with." I feel that you are underestimating the importance of this issue. Historically, the courts have sided with the electric utility when safety clearances have become an issue. An example of a previous case is when someone constructed a house too close to overhead transmission lines. The courts have called for demolition of the house based on clearance standards presented by the utility. Many people on here have provided countless examples completely contrary to Duke's statements, no?
February 11, 201213 yr That's pretty much standard procedure on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems when trains pass through work zones. The difference is that work crews on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems are employed by the same entity as the driver of the train. That is, the rules can be laid out and both the construction crew and the driver will follow them. Put yourself in the position of a work crew superintendant. What if the streetcar doesn't stop, and a Duke employee gets killed? Better have some legal recourse ahead of time to protect oneself. Who is employed by who has jack-all to do with whether proper safety procedures are followed. If you're on a construction site, then you follow the rules. End of story. I spent plenty of time in NYC taking field surveys in close proximity to active subway tracks on the PATH system, and I had to follow the same rules that PATH employees had to follow, and the PATH train drivers had to follow the same rules regardless of who signed my paychecks. And these were tracks that were active 24/7 with no option for shutting down overnight, and with train frequencies several orders of magnitude higher than the streetcar will ever see. In the case of the streetcar, the Duke employees have no guarantee that the streetcar will actually stop. Duke employees have no guarantee that an asteroid won't fall out of the sky and land on them, but they still show up to work anyway. It's all about creating a manageable level of risk, which is why we have things like worksite safety rules. You may think that this is a silly argument, Yes. but gas and electric employees have extremely strict safety procedures, to the point where devising a safety plan to perform some task often takes longer than performing the task itself. In practice, this idea would probably require a legal agreement between Duke and the streetcar operator, and that agreement itself could take a year or more to draft, considering all the beauracracy on both sides. There will be safety rules regardless of how far the utilities are from the streetcar tracks. Again, we'll be looking at what other cities have done and adopting their best practices. I'm not sure why, after 500+ pages of discussion, you still seem to think we're embarking on some radical new technology here. Listening to all the hand-wringing, you'd think they're proposing to build a nuclear fusion power plant on Fountain Square. Railroad rights-of-way are strictly controlled. Work crews are often protected by a derail device, which will throw the train off the track if its gets too close. By comparison, streets are a free-for-all. Which is exactly why a Duke Energy worker is about a million times more likely to be hurt by some drunk guy behind the wheel than by a streetcar.
February 11, 201213 yr That's pretty much standard procedure on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems when trains pass through work zones. The difference is that work crews on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems are employed by the same entity as the driver of the train. That is, the rules can be laid out and both the construction crew and the driver will follow them. Put yourself in the position of a work crew superintendant. What if the streetcar doesn't stop, and a Duke employee gets killed? Better have some legal recourse ahead of time to protect oneself. In the case of the streetcar, the Duke employees have no guarantee that the streetcar will actually stop. You may think that this is a silly argument, but gas and electric employees have extremely strict safety procedures, to the point where devising a safety plan to perform some task often takes longer than performing the task itself. In practice, this idea would probably require a legal agreement between Duke and the streetcar operator, and that agreement itself could take a year or more to draft, considering all the beauracracy on both sides. Railroad rights-of-way are strictly controlled. Work crews are often protected by a derail device, which will throw the train off the track if its gets too close. By comparison, streets are a free-for-all. So what you're saying is they should be given 20 feet instead of eight. (Or some other arbitrarily large number.)
February 11, 201213 yr That's pretty much standard procedure on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems when trains pass through work zones. The difference is that work crews on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems are employed by the same entity as the driver of the train. That is, the rules can be laid out and both the construction crew and the driver will follow them. Put yourself in the position of a work crew superintendant. What if the streetcar doesn't stop, and a Duke employee gets killed? Better have some legal recourse ahead of time to protect oneself. In the case of the streetcar, the Duke employees have no guarantee that the streetcar will actually stop. You may think that this is a silly argument, but gas and electric employees have extremely strict safety procedures, to the point where devising a safety plan to perform some task often takes longer than performing the task itself. In practice, this idea would probably require a legal agreement between Duke and the streetcar operator, and that agreement itself could take a year or more to draft, considering all the beauracracy on both sides. Railroad rights-of-way are strictly controlled. Work crews are often protected by a derail device, which will throw the train off the track if its gets too close. By comparison, streets are a free-for-all. So what you're saying is they should be given 20 feet instead of eight. (Or some other arbitrarily large number.) Kasich wants it to be around 5000 miles
February 11, 201213 yr Any word on any special material that might be used on Elm St. between Music Hall and Washington Park? About a year ago, someone from PB told me they were going to tint the concrete so it would better match the cobble stones, since cobble stones themselves are too expensive. If you have been to Portland, they used cobble stones on their first light rail line in the downtown section, in part to discourage people from driving on the tracks.
February 11, 201213 yr Any word on any special material that might be used on Elm St. between Music Hall and Washington Park? About a year ago, someone from PB told me they were going to tint the concrete so it would better match the cobble stones, since cobble stones themselves are too expensive. If you have been to Portland, they used cobble stones on their first light rail line in the downtown section, in part to discourage people from driving on the tracks. *Sigh* It's not like they don't have the granite blocks RIGHT THERE already, they're not even covered up. It's really more expensive to dig them up, haul them away, and pour new tinted concrete than it is to just set them aside and re-lay them? What's wrong with this country?
February 11, 201213 yr ^^ No, no, no. I'm not saying what the safety clearance should be. I'm saying that Duke has their own idea of what it should be, and whether it is reasonable or not, I expect them to stick to it, to the point of fighting the city in court. This is serious. I don't think at all that we are embarking on radical new technology. The fact that Duke and the Mayor have issued letters to each other stating that neither will respect the other's opinion has formalized a grudge match between the City of Cincinnati and Duke (among other grudge matches already in progress). This is a really big conflict between two institutions, not solved by technology.
February 11, 201213 yr "They are going to look silly when this argument is done with." I feel that you are underestimating the importance of this issue. Historically, the courts have sided with the electric utility when safety clearances have become an issue. An example of a previous case is when someone constructed a house too close to overhead transmission lines. The courts have called for demolition of the house based on clearance standards presented by the utility. Someone is playing Pretend Attorney again.
February 11, 201213 yr If you have been to Portland, they used cobble stones on their first light rail line in the downtown section, in part to discourage people from driving on the tracks. I think people are discouraged from driving on Elm Street by the pavement. If they don't avoid it alltogether, they definitely slow down. The use of Belgian Blocks (someone told me that this is the correct technical name) in urban design should be considered more often to address automobile dominance. The drawback of Belgian Blocks is that when automobiles do drive on them, they generate a lot of noise. Imagine when almost all streets were paved with Belgian Blocks, but streetcars rode on smooth rails. The ride must certainly have been smoother on the streetcar than in an automobile or bus, and motor speeds must have been lower. Paving streets with asphalt must have really encouraged people to drive, both by reducing vibration and increasing velocities for automobiles.
February 11, 201213 yr >Duke hangs people in plastic buckets over automobiles driven by 16-year-olds every day. Plus, Toonces is out there, somewhere: SOMEONE wandered into the cat section of Youtube again...
February 11, 201213 yr Author That's pretty much standard procedure on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems when trains pass through work zones. The difference is that work crews on the New York City subway and other heavy rail systems are employed by the same entity as the driver of the train. That is, the rules can be laid out and both the construction crew and the driver will follow them. Put yourself in the position of a work crew superintendant. What if the streetcar doesn't stop, and a Duke employee gets killed? Better have some legal recourse ahead of time to protect oneself. In the case of the streetcar, the Duke employees have no guarantee that the streetcar will actually stop. You may think that this is a silly argument, but gas and electric employees have extremely strict safety procedures, to the point where devising a safety plan to perform some task often takes longer than performing the task itself. In practice, this idea would probably require a legal agreement between Duke and the streetcar operator, and that agreement itself could take a year or more to draft, considering all the beauracracy on both sides. Railroad rights-of-way are strictly controlled. Work crews are often protected by a derail device, which will throw the train off the track if its gets too close. By comparison, streets are a free-for-all. Back me up on this one, but have there been any streetcar fatalities since 2000?
February 11, 201213 yr The drawback of Belgian Blocks is that when automobiles do drive on them, they generate a lot of noise. The drawback of Belgian blocks is that, as bad as they might be for motorists, they're a hundred times worse for cyclists! There are much better choices for traffic calming pavers. Including ones which aren't so loud. Unfortunately, given what was claimed about the price of using the existing bricks (or Belgian blocks), I hold little hope for any of those to be implemented.
February 11, 201213 yr ^ What do you suspect Duke's motives are? Since you asked,... I don't work for Duke or anything, so this is my own opinion only. I suspect that Duke's motivations are to protect their bottom line by not contributing to the streetcar project anymore than they have to, to keep their workers safe and protect themselves from lawsuits due to accidents, to take advantage of someone else's money to upgrade their own utility lines, and to make a statement that they are not going to be pushed around by the City of Cincinnati. I do not suspect that they are involved in any conspiracy to stop the streetcar project. I think the timing of the letter was coincidental. In the big picture considering all of the projects that Duke has going on, the streetcar is not one of their big concerns technically, though they are wary of media attention that could affect their stockholders' perception. Again, this is my own opinion based on my own experience and nothing more. One of my resources is a book published by Duke's predecessor, CG&E, called "The CG&E story." I've worked with Duke employees before, and they seem to be reasonable people just doing their jobs.
February 11, 201213 yr >SOMEONE wandered into the cat section of Youtube again... Are we going to have to paint this streetcar like a bus so that cats start using it?
February 11, 201213 yr Back me up on this one, but have there been any streetcar fatalities since 2000? The first page of Google results has three since 1998. I didn't look any further than the first page. San Francisco, 11-16-1998 New Orleans, 1-19-2011 Toronto, 1-11-2011 Also, lots of links to scanned newspaper articles from around 1910. I didn't know Google would find words in scanned newspapers. Google is amazing.
February 11, 201213 yr ^I think he meant utility worker deaths not pedestrians. Metro has had a few pedestrian deaths here the past few years.
February 11, 201213 yr ^I didn't search for a utility worker - streetcar fatalty, but construction work in general has a very high fatality rate among workers in the United States.
February 11, 201213 yr Back me up on this one, but have there been any streetcar fatalities since 2000? The first page of Google results has three since 1998. I didn't look any further than the first page. San Francisco, 11-16-1998 New Orleans, 1-19-2011 Toronto, 1-11-2011 Also, lots of links to scanned newspaper articles from around 1910. I didn't know Google would find words in scanned newspapers. Google is amazing. I've followed the news on the Portland Streetcar for over a decade, and I'm unaware that there has ever been a fatality or a serious injury to anyone, either a construction worker, a utility worker, passenger or pedestrian. There are about twenty fatalities a year on American light rail systems, half of them suicides. Most of the rest are car/train accidents late at night, often with alcohol involved, and many of those on one line in Los Angeles. This is approximately the number of fatalities sustained each year in America due to bee stings and snow-skiing accidents. Higher-speed commuter rail systems seem to have a lot of suicides these days, especially on the line running south from San Francisco.
February 11, 201213 yr It's been a while ago since I heard this, and I may have heard it incorectly, but my understanding is that the City of Cincinnati's proposed the three-foot separation because that's what Duke agreed to with respect to the new light rail line in Charlotte, where Duke is headquartered. It's a nice sunny day in Cincinnnat, but if someone has too much time on his or her hands and wants to scour Google Earth for proof or dis-proof of this, I'd be interested.
February 11, 201213 yr Author Go to 289 E. 5th St. Charoltte NC on google earth and 'walk' towards the tracks. have no idea how to do a screen-cap on a mac the blue line isn't exactly comparable but still electrified.
February 11, 201213 yr Please email pics to me at [email protected] along with city and location. I'll need your name. Media will probably need to credit.
February 11, 201213 yr Go to 289 E. 5th St. Charoltte NC on google earth and 'walk' towards the tracks. have no idea how to do a screen-cap on a mac the blue line isn't exactly comparable but still electrified. There are multiple ways to do a screen-cap: Taking Screenshots in Mac OS X Here is 289 E. 5th St. Charoltte NC "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
February 11, 201213 yr John, if you're still wanting some shots of Charlotte - I'm home sick all day and have nothing to do.
February 11, 201213 yr Quick Google Maps search over coffee this morning. Of course, no way telling what utility these manholes cover... Little Rock Memphis Portland Seattle (features a SDOT work crew) "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
February 11, 201213 yr Loving the rogue manhole cover screenshots. As for screenshots on a Mac: Command-Shift-3: Take a screenshot of the screen, and save it as a file on the desktop Command-Shift-4, then select an area: Take a screenshot of an area and save it as a file on the desktop I think it's a thirty step process on a PC.
February 11, 201213 yr There's two manholes in this incredible time lapse video from San Francisco: Church and 30th St. San Francisco MUNI Construction They are hard to see until the view shifts slightly and most of the old road has been removed around the 2:30 mark. There's one on the left, partly hidden behind the metal pole. You can even see some guys going in and out of it between about the 8:30 and 9:00 marks. There's another near the center top, along the sweeping curve of the track. They spray the lids with oil at 9:54 so they both show up much better at that point. These are all very close to the edge of the tracks, just far enough so they don't interfere with the ties or the flanges of the lid frame.
February 11, 201213 yr Here's my own photo from PHX Light rail on opening day, 2008. Maybe Duke meant 8 inches.
February 11, 201213 yr Someone needs to collect all these pics and put them in a blog post. Then have someone post the link in the enq. comments thread on every streetcar article. Post print outs, etc, etc.
February 11, 201213 yr Mark, is it possible to get clear jpg's out of these? Quick Google Maps search over coffee this morning. Of course, no way telling what utility these manholes cover... Little Rock Memphis Portland Seattle (features a SDOT work crew) Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18957.16260.html#ixzz1m6RJVjYg
February 11, 201213 yr These are all my photos from 2009. Portland MAX, looks like one on the actual station platform: In between the tracks in Portland: Right next to the streetcar: Looks like one right next to the cobble stones: Between the tracks: Looks like the person is stepping on one: One right next to the tracks: I see two next to different tracks in this image: Next to the tracks on the right: Dead center of this image: At right: Seattle: Seatte:
February 11, 201213 yr Great work, guys! It's not rocket science but it should carry some weight. The point is if we spent long enough we could find hundreds of examples of manholes next to streetcars. Out of this many cases, the odds are: 1) at least SOME of these examples are likely privately owned utilities, not part of the streetcar's own signal, communication or power system. 2) overwhelming odds are nobody has gotten hurt by a streetcar while in a manhole! Anybody got a way of getting these to the Mayor and his staff before his meeting with Duke?
February 11, 201213 yr I find all these photos fascinating, and I am impressed by the level of interest on this board. Still, I feel like I should say again that unless we know more details about what kind of utility is beneath these manhole covers, it doesn't make much of a case against Duke. On another project, Duke wanted 10 feet of clearance from an existing steel gas main, because over the years steel gas mains have gained a reputation for breaking during construction of another utility nearby. Jake's Photos 11 and 13, with the streetcar that says "Gresham," appear to show a man entering a manhole just a few feet from a passing streetcar. The same photo shows an asphalt trench cutting across what appears to be concrete imitation brick pavers, leading to the manhole, indicating that the utility was installed well after the streetcar tracks were built. Finally, in the background is a flagman providing traffic control.
February 11, 201213 yr ^What we really need are details on what they agreed to with Charlotte. If it's 3 feet, as was stated/speculated earlier, then they should hold Cincinnati to that same standard, all else being equal.
February 11, 201213 yr The one just after one of the pics showing utility workers, (13th one down I think) showing a track intersection, has a manhole clearly marked "power" on the cover. I only wish we knew whose power it is and how many volts. I suppose it could even be a gas line if they still have gas and electric provided by the same company.
February 11, 201213 yr Jake, thanks a bunch. I don't think it makes any difference whatsoever what's in the manhole. These are all new builds, and so they're all probably live manholes. Is there some standard by which electrical workers ought to greater safety than sewer or telephone workers. Casey, will post the paragraph from your friend's email that details what Duke is requiring with respect to the new Charlotte Streetcar?
February 11, 201213 yr I just "walked" a substantial portion of the Portland Streetcar route via Google Street View and grabbed screen shots of instances where manhole covers are clearly located within eight feet of the rails. I got bored after about two dozen instances, and I had covered less than half the streetcar's total route. And I didn't even touch the MAX light rail tracks. Clearly, Duke Energy is being either overly paranoid about the clearances (not unlike a previous generation of hand-wringers who insisted that Cincinnati's streetcars use double wires to prevent the negative ground return from "contaminating" the groundwater), or they're being willfully dishonest in order to embarrass the administration. Or more likely, they just want taxpayers to pick up the tab for replacing a larger portion of their decrepit infrastructure.
February 11, 201213 yr I love the manhole covers BETWEEN THE RAILS! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 11, 201213 yr Jimmy is right...What did they agree to in Charlotte?? OK, OK, this photo is from Charlotte...the light rail project in Charlotte, not the streetcar. Only problem is I can't read any marking on the manhole cover. Would be nice if it said "Duke Energy" wouldn't it :clap: Also, wish I had something in the photo to scale it by...it just might be close to the 8' they want. Standard light rail gauge is 4' 8.5" still, I think.
February 11, 201213 yr Those manholes are part of Charlotte's light rail system, they're at pretty much every crossing. That doesn't negate the distance argument of course. I can't make out everything on them, but they at least say CATS, Danger, High Voltage, and I think the last line is Sig/Comm for signals and communication. http://g.co/maps/jcx38
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