I fear that the sign guy was still wearing his Amy Murray shirt as his base layer:

That's possible John, but who knows what sort of condition they'd be in.  I believe all of Cincinnati's PCC's were sold to Toronto (they weren't very old after all), but what happened to them after that I don't know. 

 

There's definitely a working Cincinnati PCC in Kenosha, WI.  I've ridden on it a few times.

Has anyone found any links to the actual speeches given today?  No one could actually fit in the room where they gave the speeches so we all just waited outside for the pictures basically.  I'd love to hear what was actually said.  Of course, our local media coverage was pathetic.

WLWT

http://www.wlwt.com/video/30485604/detail.html

 

 

It was a cool ceremony.  I'm sure the videos will load soon. 

 

First, Tom Luken streaked through the aisle yelling "Boondoggle".  He threw off one of the bodyguards but was tackled by Mayor Mark Mallory himself. 

 

Then Chris Smitherman took the mic from Ray LaHood mid-speech and said "My man Mark Miller has one of the best twitter accounts of all time" before being tased & escorted out.

 

After everyone settled down, Tom Luken broke past security and streaked again.  He outran police and ran off into the CBD. 

 

Then after the conference, Chris Finney dove on the rock Mallory was digging up to try and prevent groundbreaking.  He was escorted away by police while smacking his butt and telling David Pepper to "Kiss my ass".  He is calling into 700wlw tomorrow to talk with Darryl parks about suing the city for injuries caused by the rock

 

Eric Deters screamed treason and said he will conquer Cincinnati using 'White women and Pot'.  Fortunately he was exposed as a phony after someone saw his "Obama '08' tattoo on the small of his back.  Everyone pointed and laughed.  Nelson from the Simpsons mocked Deters as he turned around, head slumped, and they walked off into the distance together

 

Bill Cunningham had a stand in staged in the crowd to call his show at precisely 1:00PM and say to his audience that the streetcar has caused a bout of Bubonic Plague in the tri-state.  Chris Smitherman later called in to confirm it.

 

Darryl Parks was there covering the story for 700wlw and prepared for his 700wlw show tomorrow by putting in ear plugs and putting on a blindfold.  He then accidentally stumbled into Washington Park.  Panhandlers felt sorry for him and offered him change

 

Leslie Ghiz screamed at a supporter. 'Its G with a hard G!' before telling cameras in front of a crowd of 400 'NO ONE WANTS THIS'.  Laketa Cole scaled down the building in a Wonder Woman outfit, grabbed a hold of Ghiz and scaled back up.

 

PG Sittenfeld told reporters he was against the project before he was for it but right after he was against it.  He then said he was a huge Yankees and Red Sox fan, Loved Obama and Santorum, and Liked Skyline and Gold Star. 

 

Doc Thompson tried to make an appearance even he, in addition to everyone else, forgot who he was so he gave up

 

Brian Thomas of 55krc sat down in the middle of the road, crossed his legs and arms, and whined.  A four year old screaming about not getting ice cream suddenly stopped, looked at Thomas and said "Grow up".  He was escorted into the paddy wagon with Finney and Smitherman already scheming about how to take over Cincinnati

 

Mark Miller interrupted the ceremony as well.  He pulled out his cell phone from his bright pink tie dyed fanny pack and tweeted "12.5% of your fire department browned out because of this boondoggle".  CincyCapell rushed over, took his cell phone, threw it to Mallory, and proceeded to play keep away as Miller kept chasing the person with the phone.  Yvette Simpson had a nice catch and behind the back pass to Seelbach who threw to a diving Quinlivan who threw to Wendall Young who threw to Thomas who threw to Cincy Capell.  Capell crushed the cell phone inside of his right hand.  Miller crumpled to the ground in a fetal position and bawled.  Police picked him up and put him in the paddy wagon as well. 

 

Then Luken streaked back through the crowd and off into the sunset.

 

Nothing too exciting

 

 

 

 

That post was the funniest thing that I've read in weeks FCE. Thaks for posting it!!!

 

 

There's a nice op-Ed in the print edition today. I'll post a link if I see one

^ Way to go, Brad!

^ Way to go, Brad!

 

Thank you fellow 'leading streetcar advocate'

It's not on-line, but here's the text:

 

Now is The Time For Unity On The Streetcar

 

Yesterday's groundbreaking for the streetcar marked a momentous day for the City of Cincinnati. Our city will soon have a multi-modal transportation system that will create jobs, repopulate our urban core, and increase the tax base for all of Cincinnati’s 52 neighborhoods. Cities throughout the country have reaped the benefits of rail transportation and Cincinnati will be next.

 

The pro-streetcar side won majorities in three City Council elections, two ballot referenda and a mayoral election, the loss of any which would have stopped the streetcar. The much-discussed and thoroughly debated streetcar is now a reality.

 

To date, the public discussion about the streetcar has been “Should we build it?” What we should ask now is “How can the Cincinnati Streetcar be the most successful system in the nation?” The media should no longer write about “the controversial streetcar proposal,” but rather “Cincinnati’s streetcar.”

 

City Council and the grassroots supporters that have been advocating for this project must remain engaged to maximize the streetcar’s impact. Already the zoning code has been amended to reduce parking requirements along the streetcar line, but other work, including coordinating the streetcar with existing Metro operations, increasing access to chronically parking-deficient institutions like Findlay Market, and encouraging investment along the line will help the streetcar live up to its fullest potential.

 

The opponents of the streetcar on City Council, as stewards of public funds, have an important oversight role. But the public would be better served by those council members working in concert with the City Administration and not grandstanding in special hearings, hearings which are more expensive for the city and provide the same information that could be obtained in a memorandum.     

 

Now is a time for unity on making the Cincinnati Streetcar a centerpiece of our city. Now is the time to focus not on the elections that have already been decided, but on the future jobs and growth that the streetcar will create. Now is the time for Cincinnati to move forward with the streetcar and the continued revitalization of our city. 

 

Brad Thomas of Downtown, a leading streetcar advocate, is the founder of cincystreetcar.wordpress.com

That's possible John, but who knows what sort of condition they'd be in.  I believe all of Cincinnati's PCC's were sold to Toronto (they weren't very old after all), but what happened to them after that I don't know. 

 

There's definitely a working Cincinnati PCC in Kenosha, WI.  I've ridden on it a few times.

 

Among other rail equipment business lines, Brookville Equipment Corporation in Brookville, PA, builds new replica streetcars and rebuilds vintage streetcars with state-of-the-art propulsion and control technology for operation on modern systems.

^ Thanks, Robert, for sharing this unusual information--who would have thought that such restorations were still possible?

To me having the official groundbreaking and still have the impasse with Duke Energy over the utilities makes no sense. It is like a couple of kids arguing over a backyard swing. I see this heading to a court fight. I look at it this way, Cincinnati says we are going to build this new streetcar and Duke says fine but these are the costs we will incur for relocating the utilitites. My belief is in a court fight Duke will win. Cincinnati might own the streets, but Duke is a public utility and they were there first. Will be interesting to see how it all comes out.

To me having the official groundbreaking and still have the impasse with Duke Energy over the utilities makes no sense. It is like a couple of kids arguing over a backyard swing. I see this heading to a court fight. I look at it this way, Cincinnati says we are going to build this new streetcar and Duke says fine but these are the costs we will incur for relocating the utilitites. My belief is in a court fight Duke will win. Cincinnati might own the streets, but Duke is a public utility and they were there first. Will be interesting to see how it all comes out.

 

Did you read the Business Courier article about utility distances?

Cincinnati might own the streets, but Duke is a public utility and they were there first.

<sarcasm>I was not aware that Duke Energy founded Cincinnati. It all makes sense!</sarcasm>

Terrific letter Brad!  It's time for the losers to stop being sore.  And I couldn't agree more that it's also time for media to stop giving equal time (or any time for that matter) to the losing side.  Since when do losers deserve to share the spotlight?

 

The "news" yesterday was the groundbreaking.  Period.  It seems media only add "context" by regurgitating the same old naysaying.  They rarely if ever bother to add context that's supportive of streetcars, in spite of success stories elsewhere. 

 

And the Duke hoopla deserved widespread clarification of the sort The Cincinnati Business Courier gave it yesterday.  Cudos to Dan Monk and Lucy May!  Other local media reporters have been either too lazy/negligent/biased to bother with The Other Side Of The Story. 

Cincinnati might own the streets, but Duke is a public utility and they were there first. Will be interesting to see how it all comes out.

Are you insane?

Still, it probably will go to court & existing industry standards will likely prevail in the city's favor.

FWIW,

http://books.google.com/books?id=jyikYbRQ8EEC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=trollope+bazaar,+gas&source=bl&ots=euZ8lNGwSW&sig=b5RIG7YQp7YaCN3bWADaIeVEm4Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nzNAT-yyG6210QGyq9GkBw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=trollope%20bazaar%2C%20gas&f=false

^ It will not go to court and will be settled within a very short while. Facts are piling up.

Cincinnati might own the streets, but Duke is a public utility and they were there first. Will be interesting to see how it all comes out.

 

Umm, Duke Energy is a private corporation based in another city, and they don't get to dictate how the city of Cincinnati uses its own streets. And as others have pointed out, they don't have a legal leg to stand on. They will lose in court (if it goes that far -- I doubt it will), and probably end up with egg on their faces.

That's possible John, but who knows what sort of condition they'd be in.  I believe all of Cincinnati's PCC's were sold to Toronto (they weren't very old after all), but what happened to them after that I don't know. 

 

There's definitely a working Cincinnati PCC in Kenosha, WI.  I've ridden on it a few times.

I believe that the systems that operate these heritage cars represent the paint livery as being authentic, but the actual streetcar could have run in any number of cities.  Cincinnati's PCC's had two color schemes...the yellow with green stripes was the main one but they did a really unusual lavender livery on a few of them.  The PCC design was so standardized (and compatible with today's power systems I might add) that it wouldn't be that difficult to do a heritage PCC on your system.  The only problem, to achieve real authenticity...remember that Cincinnati's PCC's were a double-wire system because of alleged electrical interference with underground utility systems as mentioned earlier in this thread.  There were a few PCC's that ran outside the city limits that were exempt from the twin wire law, which applied only within the city.  I'll try and post a few pictures.  (I assume your modern system will be a single-wire system.)

And a rare single-wire example operating just north of the Cincinnati city limits with the traditional yellow & green stripes. (Credit both photos, this and the one above): http://www.davesrailpix.com/csr/csr.htm

John Schneider:

 

Ray Lahood:

 

Groundbreaking:

 

Everybody hugs:

With the streetcar now under construction and me getting ready to pack my bags for Los Angeles, I've decided to declare victory and put my Metro Cincinnati blog on indefinite hiatus while I pursue other design-related interests. Thanks to all who have supported the blog and its mission over the past few years.

To me having the official groundbreaking and still have the impasse with Duke Energy over the utilities makes no sense. It is like a couple of kids arguing over a backyard swing. I see this heading to a court fight. I look at it this way, Cincinnati says we are going to build this new streetcar and Duke says fine but these are the costs we will incur for relocating the utilitites. My belief is in a court fight Duke will win. Cincinnati might own the streets, but Duke is a public utility and they were there first. Will be interesting to see how it all comes out.

 

^ Sorry to rain on anyone's parade but I agree that the Duke issue is an important one. While I don't know what may be going on behind the scenes, the groundbreaking ceremony to me seems rather pretentious, as if the City doesn't care about the Duke issue.

 

Once again, the City CANNOT force Duke out of the street. Duke has a right to be there, and the authority for that right comes from state law, not City of Cincinnati city council. If an agreement is not worked out, this could take a long time to get resolved. For that matter, if this goes to court, it could be as much as a year before the case is scheduled, much less resolved.

 

 

^ The city is not forcing Duke to do anything. Is there a law that says utilities must be moved? Show me.

Who said anything about forcing them out?  It's just like the MSD issue.  The city offered to partner together to share costs and solve a mutual issue (old sewers need replacing anyway, and the streetcar requires some utilities to be moved).  Monzel/MSD decided to play hardball, so the city is just going to build the streetcar and MSD will be on the hook for even more money down the road when they have to dig up the newly paved streets and work around the tracks and replace newer pavement.  It's the same with Duke.  If the city says $6 million and 3 feet clearance is enough, and Duke says $18 million and 8 feet clearance is what they want, then they can either pony up the $12 million difference or deal with what they get. 

I think the Duke Energy deal will come eventually.

 

I'm more worried about the Blue Ash Airport funds

^ Sorry to rain on anyone's parade but I agree that the Duke issue is an important one. While I don't know what may be going on behind the scenes, the groundbreaking ceremony to me seems rather pretentious, as if the City doesn't care about the Duke issue.

 

Once again, the City CANNOT force Duke out of the street. Duke has a right to be there, and the authority for that right comes from state law, not City of Cincinnati city council. If an agreement is not worked out, this could take a long time to get resolved. For that matter, if this goes to court, it could be as much as a year before the case is scheduled, much less resolved.

 

Playing lawyer again, are we? It does NOT take "a year before the case is scheduled".  Stop trying to pretend that you are an authority on legal issues, because you are not.

^I'm telling you that from my experience that's not the way it works.

 

On any other project, it would go something like this:

 

The City wants to build a streetcar route. They send plans to Duke, along with a letter asking them to relocate the utilities. Duke sends a letter back, telling the City what it will cost, and asks for authorization. The City signs the authorization, Duke sends a crew to perform the required utility work, and Duke sends the bill to the City of Cincinnati.

 

In this project, we got to the point where Duke tells the City what it will cost, and the City quite plainly said that they were not willing to pay.

 

Again, I'm not saying whether 8 feet is reasonable or not. I'm saying that there is a serious conflict here, and while I haven't been invited into the conversation, I don't see any progress in resolving this issue. What, pray tell, is the City going to do if Duke doesn't move the utilities?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^I'm telling you that from my experience that's not the way it works.

 

On any other project, it would go something like this:

 

The City wants to build a streetcar route. They send plans to Duke, along with a letter asking them to relocate the utilities. Duke sends a letter back, telling the City what it will cost, and asks for authorization. The City signs the authorization, Duke sends a crew to perform the required utility work, and Duke sends the bill to the City of Cincinnati.

 

In this project, we got to the point where Duke tells the City what it will cost, and the City quite plainly said that they were not willing to pay.

 

Again, I'm not saying whether 8 feet is reasonable or not. I'm saying that there is a serious conflict here, and while I haven't been invited into the conversation, I don't see any progress in resolving this issue. What, pray tell, is the City going to do if Duke doesn't move the utilities?

 

There is a tremendous amount of evidence circulating that disproves Duke's 'safety' claims, one of the projects in Charlotte is from DUKE ITSELF.  The Business Courier picked up.

 

Seeing that they have been disproved on on this basic safety issue, why should they take Duke at their word with no documentation?

Duke is going to have a PR nightmare if they keep this up. 

Seeing that they have been disproved on on this basic safety issue, why should they take Duke at their word with no documentation?

 

Because Duke is used to throwing its weight around. They are not obligated to provide documentation.

 

Duke is in a position where they could care less if the streetcar gets built or not. They have no incentive, financial or otherwise, to see this project get built. Then can replace their aging utilites with or without the streetcar project. Pretty much everyone across the board is hurting in this economy, and just like everyone else, Duke is not in the mood to be spending money unnecessarily.

 

So, maybe Duke is being uncooperative; I'll give you that. That's not something that the city can do anything about. Duke has made an offer to do the required utility work for a certain price; the city had a choice to either come up with the money, or turn down the offer. The City chose to turn them down, but instead of disagreeing peacefully, they issued a letter to the media stating that Duke was being unreasonable, and then followed up with a groundbreaking ceremony.

 

To me, this seems like a grave mistake. Now, the conflict has been elevated beyond the technical details of dimensions between rails and utilities; it has become a battle to see who is stronger, Duke or the City. The letter issued by the city was a shot across the bow; a line in the sand; a rattling of swords.

 

I do believe that Duke is trying to make a statement that they are not going to be pushed around by the City of Cincinnati, or any other city. Duke is a corporation, and they are the servants of their stockholders and their customers, but not of any municipality. I don't think Duke is fearing a PR nightmare, because the streetcar project is already extremely unpopular outside of a core group of streetcar supporters. I do not think that Duke is going to give in, and I think they will go to court before moving any utilities. Even if the city wins in court, the construction schedule will have been set back significantly.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that this is serious. If anyone has any information that I don't know about, please feel free to share.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^ The city had to respond when Duke rattled its sword. You make it sound as if the city were the first to do so, when it was Duke that went to the media. My bet is the ground breaking ceremony's date was determined by the feds, and therefore not a sign of the city standing its ground against Duke at all.

 

The thing is, we could be having exactly the same conversation if Duke had said 16 or 80 feet instead of 8. At some point, the distance is relevant to the way you talk about the issue. The Business Courier's research cements my belief that distance is under 8 feet. Whereabouts would you put that number?

I feel fairly confident given the fact that you've been incorrect, wrong, or proven to have exaggerated every other time you've played Mr. Concerned/Lawyer/Concerned Citizen/Subject Matter Expert/Whatever. With YOUR track record so far, I'm sticking with the city, who has managed to overcome the vocal few opponents, the Governor, ballot measures, and people like you numerous times in the last 6-8 years since this has been discussed.

 

As John said, this will be solved.

^It doesn't matter what I think the number should be. It's not my project. It's not the Business Courier's project, or Charlottes' project, either. What matters is that Duke thinks it should be 8 feet, and the City is not willing to pay for 8 feet.

 

16 or 80 feet wouldn't hold up in court, and everybody knows that. Would 8 feet hold up in court? I don't know.

 

 

I don't know.

 

Now that's the first honest statement that you've made in this entire thread,

^It doesn't matter what I think the number should be. It's not my project. It's not the Business Courier's project, or Charlottes' project, either. What matters is that Duke thinks it should be 8 feet, and the City is not willing to pay for 8 feet.

 

16 or 80 feet wouldn't hold up in court, and everybody knows that. Would 8 feet hold up in court? I don't know.

 

Its already been disproven as evidenced by Duke's own project in Charlotte and projects all around the US.  So if they want to go to court(which probably won't happen), they'll be shot down with plenty of visual evidence of their own project.  Utilities costs all around the US, including their own project in Charlotte, aren't even close to the number they are projecting here with zero documentation.  I don't know what their motivation is for lying or trying to halt the project they have supported in the past, but this will be resolved.  A Duke Energy guy just said on TV that negotiations are going well with the Mayor

 

In the meantime, why would the city wait to start construction on things that don't involve utilities?  If they wait, there's a variety of things that could happen...None of which positive.  Who knows maybe Smitherman puts another charter amendment on the ballot.  Why wait when you can take care of the other stuff? 

 

The Banks started construction before everything was finalized.  This really is no different in that regard

 

 

 

I'm more concerned about the $11 million Blue Ash Airport money being disputed now

 

^I'm telling you that from my experience that's not the way it works.

 

On any other project, it would go something like this:

 

The City wants to build a streetcar route. They send plans to Duke, along with a letter asking them to relocate the utilities. Duke sends a letter back, telling the City what it will cost, and asks for authorization. The City signs the authorization, Duke sends a crew to perform the required utility work, and Duke sends the bill to the City of Cincinnati.

 

In this project, we got to the point where Duke tells the City what it will cost, and the City quite plainly said that they were not willing to pay.

 

Again, I'm not saying whether 8 feet is reasonable or not. I'm saying that there is a serious conflict here, and while I haven't been invited into the conversation, I don't see any progress in resolving this issue. What, pray tell, is the City going to do if Duke doesn't move the utilities?

 

 

This is not how it usually works at all. What is your professional background, anyhow?

 

I just kind of feel sorry for you.

^ I feel sorry for Eighth and State, too, because people are piling on him pretty harshly. More harshly than normal, and he always does this same thing.

One possible next step they may do is sell advertising. Maybe paint the streetcar. I saw Chipolte had a streetcar or light rail painted in one of the youtube video's.  Im sure they have been in the works for that for  a while now. There is alot of behind the scene things we don't know about.

Seeing that they have been disproved on on this basic safety issue, why should they take Duke at their word with no documentation?

 

Because Duke is used to throwing its weight around. They are not obligated to provide documentation.

 

Duke is in a position where they could care less if the streetcar gets built or not. They have no incentive, financial or otherwise, to see this project get built. Then can replace their aging utilities with or without the streetcar project. Pretty much everyone across the board is hurting in this economy, and just like everyone else, Duke is not in the mood to be spending money unnecessarily.

 

So, maybe Duke is being uncooperative; I'll give you that. That's not something that the city can do anything about. Duke has made an offer to do the required utility work for a certain price; the city had a choice to either come up with the money, or turn down the offer. The City chose to turn them down, but instead of disagreeing peacefully, they issued a letter to the media stating that Duke was being unreasonable, and then followed up with a groundbreaking ceremony.

 

To me, this seems like a grave mistake. Now, the conflict has been elevated beyond the technical details of dimensions between rails and utilities; it has become a battle to see who is stronger, Duke or the City. The letter issued by the city was a shot across the bow; a line in the sand; a rattling of swords.

 

I do believe that Duke is trying to make a statement that they are not going to be pushed around by the City of Cincinnati, or any other city. Duke is a corporation, and they are the servants of their stockholders and their customers, but not of any municipality. I don't think Duke is fearing a PR nightmare, because the streetcar project is already extremely unpopular outside of a core group of streetcar supporters. I do not think that Duke is going to give in, and I think they will go to court before moving any utilities. Even if the city wins in court, the construction schedule will have been set back significantly.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that this is serious. If anyone has any information that I don't know about, please feel free to share.

 

 

 

 

A couple things ...

 

Duke is a corporation franchised by the City of Cincinnati to provide service to our city's families and businesses. And that includes the City of Cincinnati. Duke can't simply pick and choose the projects it wants to support or not support within the city limits. It has more or less been granted a monopoly to operate, so it's not like Duke is a grocery company which can close a store and cease serving a neighborhood and move on if that's  what its "mood" is.

 

The City did not "issue a letter to the media." Duke did. I know -- they sent it to me too. And probably to some other people on this list. It wasn't a nasty letter, but Duke clearly fired the first shot here. "Grave mistake" or not, it wasn't the city's. And I disagree that this has been "elevated beyond the technical details of dimensions between rails and utilities." Precisely the opposite. Throughout the long history of this project, the arguments have been anything but technical, i.e. "No one will ever use the streetcar." Now things have become very technical. I know that benchmarked against the other seven cities that operate or are now constructing modern streetcars, Duke is an outlier in terms of what it is demanding that the city pay for. So the city is saying, in essence, "We'll pay for the utility moves that represent best practices nationwide, anything more than that is on you." It's a defensible position.

 

Then there's this: does anyone believe that with all the scrutiny this project has (will) endure(d), that the City would ever put itself in a position where it could not factually defend what it is doing with respect to Cincinnati Streetcar? Think about it.

 

Is Duke fearing a "PR nightmare?" I think it's revealing that following a week of intense PR on radio, TV and in print media, Duke's PR execs have now gone radio silent, leaving it up its engineers to defend its position in the Business Courier. I like the people I know at Duke, my company works with them often, but Duke is no longer the revered local enterprise it once was. Cincinnatians voted for gas and electric aggregation by wide margins without anyone having to lead a campaign to get them to do so. Many Cincinnatians feel that Duke's pricing is aggressive and that its bills are difficult to understand. So the PR here is not easy to read.

 

I'm guessing that going to court, if it comes to that, would not delay the project. The city may simply accede to Duke's demand to move the utilities eight feet and then rely on a court to determine who pays for that. Sort of what happens in eminent domain cases where compensation is decided long after the "taking." From what I know, I'd much rather have the hand the City is holding. I've come to know Milton Dohoney pretty well. I would not want to play poker with him.

 

 

"families and business" sounds like LaHood's focus tested "friends and neighbors" but I digress.

 

The groundbreaking was great and I would like to thank everyone who attended.  I would also like to thank everyone who has devoted their time and energy to this project.  This group has been consistently great in their support and willingness to help over the past four years.  There are few places where you can ask strangers to draw you a map and get one in 48 hours.  This is one of them. 

 

If I went into individual thank you's I'd add a whole 'nother page to this thread. Suffice it say, (I haven't run this by John yet but I'm sure he'll agree) on behalf of me and John and everyone else who has worked on this project,  thank you all for your hard work. John has said that this is a marathon, not a sprint.  As a marathoner, I can tell you, we've pushed through the wall; now we need to just keep running.

 

Also on Duke, really did everyone read the Business Courier article?

"families and business" sounds like LaHood's focus tested "friends and neighbors" but I digress.

 

 

If I went into individual thank you's I'd add a whole 'nother page to this thread. Suffice it say, (I haven't run this by John yet but I'm sure he'll agree) on behalf of me and John and everyone else who has worked on this project,  thank you all for your hard work. John has said that this is a marathon, not a sprint.  As a marathoner, I can tell you, we've pushed through the wall; now we need to just keep running.

 

 

 

Brad's right. After all, most high-level marathons have at least 10,000 runners (be nice to have that many rail supporters some day). And I hear that each successive one becomes a little easier. On the other hand, I was a sprinter, so I really wouldn't know.

'we can build a rail system for our children and grandchildren or Seattle will'

 

^thoughts on that as a tagline? discuss. (Seattle's entirely replaceable there)

To take this conversation way back, I really want a couple lavender streetcars.

Seeing that they have been disproved on on this basic safety issue, why should they take Duke at their word with no documentation?

 

Because Duke is used to throwing its weight around. They are not obligated to provide documentation.

 

Duke is in a position where they could care less if the streetcar gets built or not. They have no incentive, financial or otherwise, to see this project get built. Then can replace their aging utilities with or without the streetcar project. Pretty much everyone across the board is hurting in this economy, and just like everyone else, Duke is not in the mood to be spending money unnecessarily.

 

So, maybe Duke is being uncooperative; I'll give you that. That's not something that the city can do anything about. Duke has made an offer to do the required utility work for a certain price; the city had a choice to either come up with the money, or turn down the offer. The City chose to turn them down, but instead of disagreeing peacefully, they issued a letter to the media stating that Duke was being unreasonable, and then followed up with a groundbreaking ceremony.

 

To me, this seems like a grave mistake. Now, the conflict has been elevated beyond the technical details of dimensions between rails and utilities; it has become a battle to see who is stronger, Duke or the City. The letter issued by the city was a shot across the bow; a line in the sand; a rattling of swords.

 

I do believe that Duke is trying to make a statement that they are not going to be pushed around by the City of Cincinnati, or any other city. Duke is a corporation, and they are the servants of their stockholders and their customers, but not of any municipality. I don't think Duke is fearing a PR nightmare, because the streetcar project is already extremely unpopular outside of a core group of streetcar supporters. I do not think that Duke is going to give in, and I think they will go to court before moving any utilities. Even if the city wins in court, the construction schedule will have been set back significantly.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that this is serious. If anyone has any information that I don't know about, please feel free to share.

 

 

 

 

A couple things ...

 

Duke is a corporation franchised by the City of Cincinnati to provide service to our city's families and businesses. And that includes the City of Cincinnati. Duke can't simply pick and choose the projects it wants to support or not support within the city limits. It has more or less been granted a monopoly to operate, so it's not like Duke is a grocery company which can close a store and cease serving a neighborhood and move on if that's  what its "mood" is.

 

The City did not "issue a letter to the media." Duke did. I know -- they sent it to me too. And probably to some other people on this list. It wasn't a nasty letter, but Duke clearly fired the first shot here. "Grave mistake" or not, it wasn't the city's. And I disagree that this has been "elevated beyond the technical details of dimensions between rails and utilities." Precisely the opposite. Throughout the long history of this project, the arguments have been anything but technical, i.e. "No one will ever use the streetcar." Now things have become very technical. I know that benchmarked against the other seven cities that operate or are now constructing modern streetcars, Duke is an outlier in terms of what it is demanding that the city pay for. So the city is saying, in essence, "We'll pay for the utility moves that represent best practices nationwide, anything more than that is on you." It's a defensible position.

 

Then there's this: does anyone believe that with all the scrutiny this project has (will) endure(d), that the City would ever put itself in a position where it could not factually defend what it is doing with respect to Cincinnati Streetcar? Think about it.

 

Is Duke fearing a "PR nightmare?" I think it's revealing that following a week of intense PR on radio, TV and in print media, Duke's PR execs have now gone radio silent, leaving it up its engineers to defend its position in the Business Courier. I like the people I know at Duke, my company works with them often, but Duke is no longer the revered local enterprise it once was. Cincinnatians voted for gas and electric aggregation by wide margins without anyone having to lead a campaign to get them to do so. Many Cincinnatians feel that Duke's pricing is aggressive and that its bills are difficult to understand. So the PR here is not easy to read.

 

I'm guessing that going to court, if it comes to that, would not delay the project. The city may simply accede to Duke's demand to move the utilities eight feet and then rely on a court to determine who pays for that. Sort of what happens in eminent domain cases where compensation is decided long after the "taking." From what I know, I'd much rather have the hand the City is holding. I've come to know Milton Dohoney pretty well. I would not want to play poker with him.

 

Well said. 

 

I'm looking at this from a non technical/logic point of view. 

 

1) Duke comes out with the one safety requirement out of nowhere and one price tag relocation of utilities analysis 3 times the amount project by the city with no documentation on every radio outlet, tv outlet, and newspaper

2) Duke's first claim of safety feet is easily disproven by photographic evidence all across the country(one of which their own project)

 

This gives Cincinnati leverage on their second claim.  Duke's inflated utilities cost was weak initially when it provided no documentation.  Now, they have absolutely no leverage after one of their initial claims were debunked. 

 

 

Seeing that they have been disproved on on this basic safety issue, why should they take Duke at their word with no documentation?

 

Because Duke is used to throwing its weight around. They are not obligated to provide documentation.

 

They do if they want a court to force the City to pay for moving the utilities 8 ft., or if they want to avoid damages to the City if the City ends up moving the utilities 8 ft. and suing Duke for the difference.  That's how the law works.

 

This is such a great project for the City.  I can't wait for it to be up and running.

'we can build a rail system for our children and grandchildren or Seattle will'

 

^thoughts on that as a tagline? discuss. (Seattle's entirely replaceable there)

 

Sounds awkward and non-factual.

I just wanted to say-- having finally watched the video, John Schneider's brick went the farthest by FAR!  Way to go John! I bet you've been looking forward to flipping that brick for that for a long time :)

Some post groundbreaking thoughts and photos:

http://queencitydiscovery.blogspot.com/2012/02/new-era-began-on-friday.html

 

Also, took this picture Friday evening. Seems like everyone else is cool with three feet:

Groundbreaking_005 by Ronny "Gordon Bombay" Salerno, on Flickr

Some post groundbreaking thoughts and photos:

http://queencitydiscovery.blogspot.com/2012/02/new-era-began-on-friday.html

 

Also, took this picture Friday evening. Seems like everyone else is cool with three feet:

Groundbreaking_005 by Ronny "Gordon Bombay" Salerno, on Flickr

 

 

So if looks like if you see a bright yellow dash painted on the street like that one, it suggests that's where the centerline of the streetcar track will go. Anyone see more of those painted on pavement around downtown (and, no, I don't need smart-asses showing all the normal yellow striping!)?

Hard to say, with markings like that, yellow usually indicates gas lines, red electric lines, blue water lines, green sewer, and orange telephone.  I'm betting that's the location of an existing gas main.