"Most urban cores"? Really? That's not even true of all the ones you cherry-picked.

 

http://www.walkscore.com/OH/Cleveland/Downtown

http://www.walkscore.com/OH/Cincinnati/Central_Business_District

 

The cities we always talk about as models of urbanism are not average. Sometimes people seem to forget, but that really should go without saying.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_by_population

Find Cincinnati on this list (62) then work your way up the list asking yourself about average walkability.

 

I wasn't talking solely about walkability.

 

I was referring to the statement that Cincinnati was auto centric.  In my mind, that doesn't mean Car vs. walking.  there's this one other option called mass transit.  And urban core when in the context of an entire metropolitan area is larger than just downtown, OTR & the west end.  the original suburbs would likely be included to (Mt. Auburn, Walnut Hills, etc.).  And in all those other cities there are more mass transit options for people in that ring.

I'm sorry, what mass transit is there in Charleston SC?  I have been there, it is a beautiful city, but I didn't see anyone get around in anything that wasn't a car or a horse drawn carriage.

I'm sorry, what mass transit is there in Charleston SC?  I have been there, it is a beautiful city, but I didn't see anyone get around in anything that wasn't a car or a horse drawn carriage.

 

There's some bus service and some tourist shuttles, but the peninsula is small enough to walk anywhere south of US 17 (and really there's nothing but homes and parks south of Broad except along East Bay so it's even smaller)

^ word. And you can tell how non-auto oriented a community is by their parking prices. I once saw a single car garage for sale in Charleston. Price: $250,000.

 

Does this open the door to yet another Chris Finney lawsuit?  He's claiming people are urging the Hamilton County Commissioners to sue as well

 

Cincinnati solicitor won't seek injunction to stop streetcar

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/02/29/cincinnati-solicitor-wont-seek.html

Does this open the door to yet another Chris Finney lawsuit?  He's claiming people are urging the Hamilton County Commissioners to sue as well

 

Cincinnati solicitor won't seek injunction to stop streetcar

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/02/29/cincinnati-solicitor-wont-seek.html

"adding that he (Finney) won’t move forward with a taxpayer lawsuit unless he’s certain he could win."

That doofus still thinks he was right & the CEC was wrong on Schmidt. Of coure he thinks he can win. That's just part of being a zealot.

City, Duke Energy Work To Resolve Streetcar Impasse

City Engineer Traveling To Other Streetcar Cities With Duke Reps

Written By: John London

 

CINCINNATI -- Examining the underground experience of other cities could help solve the big streetcar dollar dispute between Duke Energy and the city of Cincinnati.

 

Technical engineers are traveling to other cities to learn as much as they can about the cost and safe procedures for relocating utility lines.

 

Accompanied by a city engineer, the Duke team went to Portland last week to examine the procedures there. At least two more trips to other cities are planned in the next few weeks, which means it will be mid-March at the earliest before any breakthrough in the impasse between Duke and the city is possible.

 

Cont

Accompanied by a city engineer, the Duke team went to Portland last week to examine the procedures there. At least two more trips to other cities are planned in the next few weeks, which means it will be mid-March at the earliest before any breakthrough in the impasse between Duke and the city is possible.

 

Maybe this whole tempest in a teapot was just a way for "the Duke team" to take a couple trips. This drama is pathetic. Like they have to go anywhere to know what to do. Hopefully, this will be resolved soon though.

Accompanied by a city engineer, the Duke team went to Portland last week to examine the procedures there. At least two more trips to other cities are planned in the next few weeks, which means it will be mid-March at the earliest before any breakthrough in the impasse between Duke and the city is possible.

 

Maybe this whole tempest in a teapot was just a way for "the Duke team" to take a couple trips. This drama is pathetic. Like they have to go anywhere to know what to do. Hopefully, this will be resolved soon though.

 

On the contrary, I am relieved they are finally dragging their asses to Portland. These issues appears to be pretty cut and dry.

City, Duke Energy Work To Resolve Streetcar Impasse

City Engineer Traveling To Other Streetcar Cities With Duke Reps

Written By: John London

 

CINCINNATI -- Examining the underground experience of other cities could help solve the big streetcar dollar dispute between Duke Energy and the city of Cincinnati.

 

Technical engineers are traveling to other cities to learn as much as they can about the cost and safe procedures for relocating utility lines.

 

Accompanied by a city engineer, the Duke team went to Portland last week to examine the procedures there. At least two more trips to other cities are planned in the next few weeks, which means it will be mid-March at the earliest before any breakthrough in the impasse between Duke and the city is possible.

 

Cont

 

At least Duke is open to seeing what works in other places with successful streetcar operations.

 

I wonder if anyone has looked into the feasibility of relocating the utility lines three feet, and then offsetting the manholes to eight feet, either with a diagonal access to the level of the lines or an underground vault between the manhole access and the lines.

Accompanied by a city engineer, the Duke team went to Portland last week to examine the procedures there. At least two more trips to other cities are planned in the next few weeks, which means it will be mid-March at the earliest before any breakthrough in the impasse between Duke and the city is possible.

 

It probably looks better on them if they say they went and checked it out rather than they just flat out say "Oh, hey, lol, we were wrong." Doesn't matter anyways, the Enquirer or any other local media won't call them out for trying to take more money than they need. Who needs investigative journalism when the Enquirer can tell you where the best Oscar watching parties are!?

 

Maybe this whole tempest in a teapot was just a way for "the Duke team" to take a couple trips. This drama is pathetic. Like they have to go anywhere to know what to do. Hopefully, this will be resolved soon though.

At least Duke is open to seeing what works in other places with successful streetcar operations.

 

 

I agree. I would have been overjoyed if some of the opponents of the 3C project had gone to other states to see what they have, how it's used, what the benefits/costs are, and if those states regret providing the service.

 

Going to other places who have already done it so that we can bring that knowledge back to Ohio is a good thing.

^ This is why I've taken 400+ people to Portland over the last ten years.

Accompanied by a city engineer, the Duke team went to Portland last week to examine the procedures there. At least two more trips to other cities are planned in the next few weeks, which means it will be mid-March at the earliest before any breakthrough in the impasse between Duke and the city is possible.

 

Maybe this whole tempest in a teapot was just a way for "the Duke team" to take a couple trips. This drama is pathetic. Like they have to go anywhere to know what to do. Hopefully, this will be resolved soon though.

 

On the contrary, I am relieved they are finally dragging their asses to Portland. These issues appears to be pretty cut and dry.

 

I'm relieved too. I'm frankly surprised that Duke hasn't been to Portland already - they seem like some of the first Cincinnatians I would take on a city trip there.

Why would they need to go to Portland when one is already in place in there HQ city Charlotte?

 

This is from the Tampa streetcar. Their utility relocation cost $9.6 million.

 

"Utility Relocation

Utility relocation is a major cost and construction disruption impact.  Water, sewer and other utilities are modernized and

relocated along with rail transit construction for a wide variety of reasons.  This helps to minimize disruptions to streetcar

service once it begins operations and it minimizes corrosive impacts of “stray currents” on underground utilities.  If the

utilities in downtown must be upgraded to support more intense new development some of these costs move from

relocation costs to modernization costs.  They still must be funded, but they benefit more than just the streetcar project"

 

http://www.kimley-horn.com/Projects/fasttrackfresnocounty/images/Fresno_Appendix_B.pdf

Why would they need to go to Portland when one is already in place in there HQ city Charlotte?

 

This is from the Tampa streetcar. Their utility relocation cost $9.6 million.

 

"Utility Relocation

Utility relocation is a major cost and construction disruption impact.  Water, sewer and other utilities are modernized and

relocated along with rail transit construction for a wide variety of reasons.  This helps to minimize disruptions to streetcar

service once it begins operations and it minimizes corrosive impacts of “stray currents” on underground utilities.  If the

utilities in downtown must be upgraded to support more intense new development some of these costs move from

relocation costs to modernization costs.  They still must be funded, but they benefit more than just the streetcar project"

 

http://www.kimley-horn.com/Projects/fasttrackfresnocounty/images/Fresno_Appendix_B.pdf

 

But no.  Don't you see?  "Cincinnati's different"  "Our utilities are different" ------ "It will work in those other Cities, but not Cincinnati"

 

In my mind, Duke is stalling. 

Charlotte hasn't built is modern streetcar yet. Still in planning.

But how can Duke back track now? The whole "utilities are different" here than anywhere has to got biggest pile of , ever.

I'm guessing this is getting worked out.

But how can Duke back track now? The whole "utilities are different" here than anywhere has to got biggest pile of , ever.

 

They can't backtrack at all but my guess is they'll think of new "problems".

 

Its like when COASTers lose an argument when looking at the facts.  That doesn't deter them.  They just make up new arguments usually based on ridiculous predictions or loosely based facts that they take to an extreme level of hyperbole

The difference between Duke Energy and COAST is that Duke is concerned only about money, while COAST is purely idealogical. My suspicion is that Duke realizes they've really stepped in it, and that these trips to study other streetcar systems are a way for them to save face when they ultimately back down on their demand for an 8-foot separation.

"Plus, I don't think that most suburbanites do a whole lot of walking around in their own neighborhoods, not to mention one that they think is dangerous."

 

Excellent point and this is the root of the problem right here IMO.  We live in an EXTREMELY auto-centric, suburban based city where the vast majority of people living here have no clue about any other way of life.  Its no coincidence that the extreme ignorance and hostility towards public transportation and walking around downtown is coming from the same city where people actually ask about what highschool you went to because the majority of people living here as adults also grew up here.

I can testify to this because I grew up in the suburbs here and was just as ignorant and afraid of downtown as any other suburbanite until I spent 8 years of my life away from Cincinnati visiting real cities and going to school.  It wasn't until I moved to OTR 4 years ago that my perception of the neighborhood completely changed.  Now there's nowhere else I would rather live. 

 

Despite us having a large number of individual walkable neighborhood business districts, the majority of Cincinnati suburbanites don't visit any of them and don't understand them. Anywhere walkable is "downtown" because they know nothing about where the NBDs are located in relation to eachother. Ludlow Avenue, Clifton Heights, Northside, Walnut Hills, and OTR are all "downtown". I am shocked how so many people who have lived in Greater Cincinnati their entire lives know nothing about the city's history and have never visited different neighborhoods to see what they offer.

 

I don't know if this is unique to Cincinnati. I would guess probably not. But, for the most part, I have tried to stop trying to get suburbanites to come downtown. I definitely will definitely try to set the record straight if I hear comments about OTR being dangerous or anything like that. But clearly, with the incredible success of all of the housing, restaurants, and shops in OTR, we don't need to reach out and beg people to come downtown and "give it a chance" -- enough people are finding out about it on their own.

Another LTE riddled with mis-information...

 

Streetcar poses many costly problems

 

Some type of public transportation around downtown Cincinnati is a great idea, but the streetcar system on rails appears to create many problems. Just the cost to relocate all the underground facilities is a huge problem in itself. Duke Energy has said it will cost at least $18.7 million to relocate the gas and electric facilities. Duke typically does not quote a maximum figure with something of this magnitude, so it’s likely they will quote it as “actual cost estimated to be” “which could ultimately mean that it will cost more than $18.7 million. Also, due to the monumental cost Duke typically will bill the city on a monthly basis for the expenses accrued during the previous month. Therefore the city will need to have money on hand now to start paying for the relocations.

 

Mayor Mark Mallory and City Manager Milton Dohoney have asked Duke Energy to pick up the cost for the gas and electric relocations. If Duke Energy absorbs the cost of these relocations, it will mean that all the ratepayers in the greater Cincinnati area (those from Harrison to Batavia and Middletown to Walton, KY) will be financing the streetcar system. Most of these ratepayers will probably not even take advantage of the streetcar system, so is that fair?

 

[...]

4. Today there is metered, on-street parking in front of the businesses along the streetcar route; these parking spaces will be eliminated when the streetcar system is installed. This will affect people who want to park and make a quick stop at a certain business in downtown Cincinnati.

 

Oh, the irony...

Moderator Note

 

Once again, please do not copy and paste the entire contents of a newspaper article on this site, even if it's a badly misinformed letter to the editor. Cyngus, you've been here long enough to know better. Thank you.

Moderator Note

 

Once again, please do not copy and paste the entire contents of a newspaper article on this site, even if it's a badly misinformed letter to the editor. Cyngus, you've been here long enough to know better. Thank you.

 

I didn't really think LTEs were Enquirer original content... the writer owns the copyright, no?

^If only there were some sort of publicly engineering document that showed which lane the streetcar would run in and how that may conflict with existing parking uses- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/environmental/docs/Cincinnati%20Streetcar%20EA%20App%20C%20-%20Conceptual%20Streetcar%20Engineering.pdf

I didn't really think LTEs were Enquirer original content... the writer owns the copyright, no?

 

I believe part of the agreement when you submit a LTE is that the newspaper retains all rights to the work. But regardless of who owns the copyright, it's still somebody else's original content and should be treated as such on these forums.

Moderator Note

 

Once again, please do not copy and paste the entire contents of a newspaper article on this site, even if it's a badly misinformed letter to the editor. Cyngus, you've been here long enough to know better. Thank you.

 

Then please see http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,18957.msg604228.html#msg604228

Despite us having a large number of individual walkable neighborhood business districts, the majority of Cincinnati suburbanites don't visit any of them and don't understand them. Anywhere walkable is "downtown" because they know nothing about where the NBDs are located in relation to eachother. Ludlow Avenue, Clifton Heights, Northside, Walnut Hills, and OTR are all "downtown". I am shocked how so many people who have lived in Greater Cincinnati their entire lives know nothing about the city's history and have never visited different neighborhoods to see what they offer.

 

I don't know if this is unique to Cincinnati. I would guess probably not.

 

Naw, in Columbus suburbanites and even a lot of people who grew up in town think Columbus only has like five different neighborhoods.

It happens everywhere. I got on the elevator in my condo building in Lakewood on Cleveland's west side with a woman in her 50s. I didn't recognize her so I thought she was a new resident in the building. I asked her that but she said she was visiting a friend, adding that it was her first time here. I asked "where, in this building?" She said, "no -- on the west side." Cleveland has a huge east side-west side thing that some say goes back to the 1836 Bridge War (http://ech.case.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=CSB). But I also think it goes back to the territorial/ethnic neighborhood culture of Cleveland. Decades ago, you stayed in your ethnic neighborhood and did not venture to other neighborhoods unless they were the same or similar ethnicity of your family. Even today, when families move farther out to the suburbs, they move in almost a direct line farther from Public Square.

 

I didn't really think LTEs were Enquirer original content... the writer owns the copyright, no?

 

I believe part of the agreement when you submit a LTE is that the newspaper retains all rights to the work. But regardless of who owns the copyright, it's still somebody else's original content and should be treated as such on these forums.

 

That's partly correct except that a newspaper publishing an LTE does not have exclusive rights to it. The writer of the LTE can submit the exact same letter to another newspaper which can publish it word-for-word. But one newspaper cannot reprint another newspaper's LTEs. Thus UrbanOhio cannot reprint in its entirety an LTE that was published in a newspaper nor do so without attribution unless the writer submits the LTE to UrbanOhio for publication here.

The Enquirer will come after UO for posting a letter to the editor?

 

I'll believe it when I see it.

The Enquirer will come after UO for posting a letter to the editor?

 

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

Believe it. 

 

Shortly after I created "FakeCinEnquirer" via twitter, I heard a knock at the door.  I looked through the peep hole to see one of my neighbors.  As I unlocked the door, an angry voice yelled "Get Him!"  The last thing I remember was Carolyn Washburn pointing at me to a bunch of goons and I was chloroformed before I knew what hit me

 

I came to in the basement of an abandoned building tied to a chair.  The stench of ink and misinformation rippled through the air.  Blindfolded and cold, I screamed for help.  But My pleas went unnoticed.  Suddenly, the blindfold was ripped off.  To my horror, none other than Barry Horstman was inches away from my face.  I begged Carolyn Washburn to help but it was to no avail.

 

I tried my best not to look at him I truly did.  But  His cold, dark, glossy eyes ended up glaring right through me like that Cyclops character from XMen.  I was helpless. 

 

"Do you know...why you are here" The dramatic pause made it seem more...well...dramatic.  I trembled with fear.

 

"If its about me burning the DVD of Wedding Crashers in college, I lost that DVD shortly after!  I never even got to see it.  In fact...."

 

"SILENCE" His scream echoed for seemingly minutes off the walls

 

Barry nodded at Carolyn Washburn who brought over a big carry out bag with that unmistakable smell. 

 

"Is that.....What I think it is?" I asked Carolyn.  I was truly frightened.  She smiled, nodded her head, and proceeded to pull out Mozzarella cheese sticks from Applebees. 

 

The rest of the story is just too difficult for me to tell.  But lets just say that is the reason for my name change via twitter. 

 

 

The Enquirer will come after UO for posting a letter to the editor?

 

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

After repeated offenses, yes. It seems you missed all the hubbub over the nasty-gram UO received in 2009, co-signed by Ohio's eight largest newspapers because many UO members were posting entire articles here? We had to hide all threads where entire articles were posted (hundreds of threads!!), and then clean up those threads one at a time before making them visible again. There are still 177 threads yet to be cleaned and made visible again.

 

That threatening letter from Ohio's eight largest newspapers is why we vigorously enforce the rules limiting the posting of copyrighted material. When in doubt, we will delete just to be safe.

 

Back to the streetcar. Any construction updates? Photos?

No updates.  I went over to where the groundbreaking was the other day, but it looked like the dirt had been replaced.  There wasn't active construction going on.  I will take a look around this weekend.  Maybe I can get some photos if anything is going on. 

Happy Friday everyone!

 

 

Yeah I want to know how much a month pass costs and if it will work with Metro?

Almost every day this week I've seen construction going on from 7AM-6PM.  I work at Music Hall so it's Definitley noticeable, and exciting.  They had large green pipes out the other day, I'm guessing for the new water main.

 

Also, Streetcar & metro passed will be compatible- same kiosk, etc.

^I was there on Sunday, so it's entirely possible I just missed it.  Also it was not like the street was really broken up or closed off or anything, which is probably a positive in the long run. 

The Othwr day there was a guy down in the trench standing and I could barely see his helmet. Pretty deep!

The rest of the story is just too difficult for me to tell.  But lets just say that is the reason for my name change via twitter. 

 

So did you ever find that Wedding Crashers DVD?

 

Does anyone know how exactly the track work will be set up? From my ignorant position, it seems to me that while they're working on ELM they'd just go ahead and lay down some rails right after they finish underground work, but apparently track work comes later in the summer/fall?

 

Anyone know when we'll start to see the catenary wire go in?

^John Schnieder can probably tell you more but it seems like a long way to go before any track or overhead wire will be built.

 

I know everyone is excited, but gee, it was just a little water main project.

Trackwork will start in the fall. The overhead electric will be one of the very last things to get built.

Trackwork will start in the fall. The overhead electric will be one of the very last things to get built.

 

Great news John!

The Enquirer will come after UO for posting a letter to the editor?

 

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

After repeated offenses, yes. It seems you missed all the hubbub over the nasty-gram UO received in 2009, co-signed by Ohio's eight largest newspapers because many UO members were posting entire articles here? We had to hide all threads where entire articles were posted (hundreds of threads!!), and then clean up those threads one at a time before making them visible again. There are still 177 threads yet to be cleaned and made visible again.

 

That threatening letter from Ohio's eight largest newspapers is why we vigorously enforce the rules limiting the posting of copyrighted material. When in doubt, we will delete just to be safe. Got it?

 

Back to the streetcar. Any construction updates? Photos?

 

Thank you for all the fluster. Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

If you think that I missed the 2009 thread cleaning you should perhaps refresh your memory on who I am?

 

I don't like to see moderators here chiding our longstanding, contributing members. Sets a bad tone. If the forum guidelines on posting copyrighted content need refinement, just refine them. But we should certainly know what we can do based on careful review and consensus. Not on-the-fly moderator speculation.

^Agree with that last paragraph Civvik.

 

This is way off-topic and can perhaps be moved elsewhere... But if what LIG says is indeed correct:

 

I believe part of the agreement when you submit a LTE is that the newspaper retains all rights to the work.

then Brad's post of his LTE also needs to be truncated. Plus many, many more in this thread...

 

Moderator Note

 

Let's get a few things straight here:

 

1. UrbanOhio isn't Wikipedia, and this site isn't run by "consensus". The Admins set the rules, and those rules will be followed.

 

2. The fact that you're a "longstanding, contributing member" of UrbanOhio doesn't make you exempt from the rules that everybody else has to follow.

 

3. Letters to the editor are subject to the same fair use guidelines as any other article in a newspaper. The only exception would be if you're posting a copy of a letter that you personally wrote to the editor. Brad Thomas is free to post the entire text of his letter to the editor because he's the author of that letter.

 

4. If somebody else breaks the rules, that doesn't mean you're exempt from the same rules. If you have a question or problem with somebody else's post, flag it for review and somebody will take a look at it.

 

5. As a "longstanding, contributing member", you should be aware that second-guessing or arguing with Moderators' rulings are a very effective way to get suspended. If you have a question or problem with a Moderator ruling, then the proper course of action is to PM an Admin.

 

6. This entire discussion is off-topic for the Cincinnati Streetcar thread, and any further posts on this subject will be deleted before I even read them. Again, if you have a problem with the way this thread is being moderated, PM an Admin.

 

Any questions? Good, I didn't think so.

Civvik, I said what I said based on working for a newspaper since 1993, 15 years of which as a staff writer. I appreciate your contributions to this site, but understand that what I have to say on newspaper copyright issues is not speculation.

 

Let's talk streetcar.

Besides the World Choir Games this summer, are there any other big events Cincinnati is looking to host in the coming years to show off its new streetcar?

Well we get at least 3 night national  football games every year now.