^ Lots of people have noticed the double-standard at work here.

Agreed. I noticed Duke at work at Montgomery/Dana Avenues today, and was within a feet of their workers as they unloaded a telephone pole onto the street. Were was the 8-foot requirement then?

Lets start taking pictures and posting them in a new thread devoted to Duke's hypocrisy

If your looking for photo ops, there is a lot of Duke work underway downtown on 4th St. as well as Vine St.

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

The new Expo light rail line in Los Angeles is scheduled to open April 28, 2012:

 

This new line through a junky, low-density area shows why the Cincinnati Streetcar is going to be such an enormous success, achieving the very highest ROI among contemporary rail projects. 

Expo connects Downtown LA to USC.  That alone makes it a worth while project.  It also connects to 3 other rail lines (Red, Purple, Blue) and will eventually reach the beach at Santa Monica.  I think Expo is going to have a HUGE impact on LA.

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

 

As long as you aren't standing directly on the streetcar tracks, it won't hit you. The same cannot be said for automobiles.

I'll say it before concern troll does:

 

What if it derails? Then it could hit anyone....

 

:bang:

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

 

As long as you aren't standing directly on the streetcar tracks, it won't hit you. The same cannot be said for automobiles.

 

Let's say I'm within 8 ft. of the edge of the tracks, will I be ok then?

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

 

As long as you aren't standing directly on the streetcar tracks, it won't hit you. The same cannot be said for automobiles.

 

Let's say I'm within 8 ft. of the edge of the tracks, will I be ok then?

 

No... you see, streetcars have these swinging arms that come out of no where and can extend up to 8 feet from the rails. Pretty scary stuff.

I'll say it before concern troll does:

 

What if it derails? Then it could hit anyone....

 

:bang:

 

Someone could pour motor oil on the tracks!!!!!!!

>Expo connects Downtown LA to USC.  That alone makes it a worth while project.

 

What we're seeing on that video is the nondescript area beyond USC.  I would like to see the per-mile breakdown of the capital costs, as the majority of the line's $900 million cost appears to have been devoured by 1 or 2 miles of tunneling between the university and Downtown LA. 

 

But what we're seeing here is the same problem I've been arguing for awhile -- that use of these abandoned freight corridors often means transit lines are built through odd parts of town.  In Cincinnati we are lucky in that the Wasson Rd. line is pretty ideal, as is the CL&N RR north of Xavier University.  Meanwhile the CL&N south of XU is bad news, and the Oasis line rebuilt as heavy commuter rail per the Eastern Corridor Project makes no sense.

 

To clarify, there is no CL&N right-of-way left north of XU.  The roadbed has been sold off and built on between Cleneay Avenue and the former B&O at Harris and Forest.  It picks up north of there and is in regular use by I&O.  The N&W connecting belt which takes a more northerly/westerly jaunt along the west edge of Norwood is still intact if overgrown, but it's another one of those marginal industrial type corridors that's not particularly conducive to commuter use. 

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

 

As long as you aren't standing directly on the streetcar tracks, it won't hit you. The same cannot be said for automobiles.

 

Let's say I'm within 8 ft. of the edge of the tracks, will I be ok then?

 

No... you see, streetcars have these swinging arms that come out of no where and can extend up to 8 feet from the rails. Pretty scary stuff.

 

Dear God. That's more frightening than the time Mark Miller attempted to photoshopped Xenia Warrior Princess on top of a Portland Streetcar.

You're showing your Ohioness by calling her Xenia instead of Xena.

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

Are you actually suggesting that the Duke worker would be in the streetcar ROW working and the streetcar still running?

 

Otherwise, what does it matter?  The streetcar is on rails.  You know where it is going, unlike cars zooming along Colerain Avenue at any speed. 

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

 

As long as you aren't standing directly on the streetcar tracks, it won't hit you. The same cannot be said for automobiles.

 

Let's say I'm within 8 ft. of the edge of the tracks, will I be ok then?

 

No... you see, streetcars have these swinging arms that come out of no where and can extend up to 8 feet from the rails. Pretty scary stuff.

 

Dear God. That's more frightening than the time Mark Miller attempted to photoshopped Xenia Warrior Princess on top of a Portland Streetcar.

 

It was Summer Glau.

You're showing your Ohioness by calling her Xenia instead of Xena.

 

Hahaha, wow. At least I'm more familiar with the place and not the show.

Duke Energy now requesting fortified 'Barrier Wall' around streetcar tracks

 

4/3/12

Larry Worstman

Fake Cincinnati Enquirer

 

 

 

Its no secret that Duke energy and the City of Cincinnati are in a dispute over utlity and gas issues, specifically the safety distance away from the streetcar tracks as well as the safety distance from Lark Liller of COAST after he eats mozzarella cheese sticks from Applebees.  In regards to the streetcar, Duke has been demanding an 8 foot safety distance from the tracks that no other system in the known world abides by. But now Duke Energy officials have upped the ante.  They are now requesting a 10 foot tall barrier wall around the streetcar tracks. 

 

"We feel it is in the safety of our employees to build a fortified 10 foot wall barrier along streetcar track lines"  Ohio and Kentucky Duke Energy President Tulley Manson says to Jill Wunningham on 700lwl.  "This wall must be equipped with electrically charged fencing, barbed wire, armed guards, security cameras, electrical lighting that spells out 'Duke Energy' for 24 hours/day, a moat full of Nile Crocodiles no shorter than 6 feet in length, and a drawbridge to every stop.  We are not willing to compromise on this issue"

 

The fortified wall, Duke claims, will be needed to remind workers of the dangers that they would face if they enter inside 8 feet of the streetcar tracks.  When pressed about the need of the crocodiles and a moat in addition to the other securities, a Duke energy spokesmen responded "They are just too f*cking cool". 

 

City Council member Chris Witherman agrees. 

 

"Its fiscally irresponsible to build a $110 million dollar streetcar line without responsibly building a $1billion 10 foot tall fortified wall with Nile crocodiles around the line first.  I do not think the streetcar is a great use of taxpayer money unless it can directly benefit me politically and financially."

 

Negotiations have been rough between the city of Cincinnati and Duke Energy.  In the last meeting behind closed doors, Cincinnati City Manager Wilton Cahoney blocked numerous eye pokes and then proceeded to taunt Duke Energy by stating "nyuk, nyuk, nyuk".  The Duke official responded with "Why you lil..." and proceeded to play The Benny Hill Theme Song on his Ipad.  Then, in an incredible moment of slapstick comedy, the pies they ordered for lunch untimely arrived.  Needless to say, it was ugly for all involved.

 

These recent demands by Duke energy have frustrated streetcar backers.

 

"I should have seen it coming" Rail proponent Juan Schieber says.  "I remember I offered a Duke representative a diet coke once and he demanded I pay for a straw to drink it with.  I knew right then we could have some difficulties.  We'll get through this though"

the modern streetcar (with cyborg union member operator) works a lot like this - except on rails

pretty much nobody is safe

Duke Energy now requesting fortified 'Barrier Wall' around streetcar tracks

 

You might not want to do that again. Some media outlet might pick up on it and publish it as if it were real. I recall an article from The Onion that was picked up by a Chinese news agency and published.

 

 

Duke Energy now requesting fortified 'Barrier Wall' around streetcar tracks

 

You might not want to do that again. Some media outlet might pick up on it and publish it as if it were real. I recall an article from The Onion that was picked up by a Chinese news agency and published.

 

 

And yet The Onion soldiers on.  How remarkable.

Duke Energy now requesting fortified 'Barrier Wall' around streetcar tracks

 

You might not want to do that again. Some media outlet might pick up on it and publish it as if it were real. I recall an article from The Onion that was picked up by a Chinese news agency and published.

 

There was a congressman from somewhere in the south that believed the Onion's "Abortionplex" story so I guess anything is possible. 

Just wondering,,,

 

What is the emergency stopping distance of a streetcar compared to an automobile, at say, 25 mph?

 

As long as you aren't standing directly on the streetcar tracks, it won't hit you. The same cannot be said for automobiles.

 

It's just an honest question.

 

Derailments happen, but I am not worried about it because they are so rare for a system of this kind. I think the highest risk of a collision would involve a pedestrian, bicycle, or automobile that darts in front of a moving streetcar without leaving enough time for the streetcar to stop. Incidentally, Ohio law specifically states that streetcars are not allowed to hit anything, and must maintain safe following distances. You might think that it's obvious, but the same principle does NOT apply to railroads, where if there is a collision between an automobile and a train on a crossing, it is almost always ruled the fault of the automobile driver (if he even survives).

 

I truly would like to know the reason why Duke is asking for 8 feet. The real reason may or may not be the same reason that their PR people are reporting.

http://lmgtfy.com  Serious Portland Streetcar accidents to date?  Zero. 

 

The only thing that comes up is some whining about the tracks by bike advocates -- an invented problem to get them free press. 

 

 

Duke Energy now requesting fortified 'Barrier Wall' around streetcar tracks

 

You might not want to do that again. Some media outlet might pick up on it and publish it as if it were real. I recall an article from The Onion that was picked up by a Chinese news agency and published.

 

 

 

Really? I think he'll be just fine. How does the media of this country survive on April Fool's day?

Come on Jake, tracks of any sort are a problem for bikes, same for metal construction plates and bridge expansion joints.  It IS dangerous to ride parallel to or at any angle less than 90º to railroad or streetcar tracks.  Riding perpendicular to them is not really a problem, and some brave souls with thick mountain bike type tires can parallel to the tracks, but it's not an "invented problem" at all. 

Really? I think he'll be just fine. How does the media of this country survive on April Fool's day?

 

Not very well. My former employer Sun Newspapers in Cleveland did an April Fool's Day article about condos planned for a massive water tower in Beachwood. Fox 8 ran the story with video on the 6 o'clock news without a scent of humor to it. It was obvious they took it seriously. After they were blasted by viewers' phone calls for being so stupid, they ran the story again at 11 o'clock but with some humor added. A co-worker at Sun who's husband worked at Channel 8 said the TV reporter told him he knew the story was an April Fool's Joke, but you'd never know if by how he portrayed it in the 6 p.m. segment.

 

Some media has a sense of humor. Some don't. My advice is don't assume the reporter you're dealing with has a sense of humor until proven otherwise.

Come on Jake, tracks of any sort are a problem for bikes, same for metal construction plates and bridge expansion joints.  It IS dangerous to ride parallel to or at any angle less than 90º to railroad or streetcar tracks.  Riding perpendicular to them is not really a problem, and some brave souls with thick mountain bike type tires can parallel to the tracks, but it's not an "invented problem" at all. 

 

Heh. Last Thursday, I was riding down near the riverfront park on the old Cincinnati Street Connecting Railway - the segment that still has rail but is surrounded by brick. Even though it is mostly flush, I crossed at a not-so-90-degree angle and wiped out. The top of the rails were slick, even on a dry day, and that was enough to send me tumbling down.

Amsterdam is one of the most cycling-friendly cities in the world, if not the most. There are streetcar ("tram") tracks all over the city. It's no big deal.

>Expo connects Downtown LA to USC.  That alone makes it a worth while project.

 

What we're seeing on that video is the nondescript area beyond USC.  I would like to see the per-mile breakdown of the capital costs, as the majority of the line's $900 million cost appears to have been devoured by 1 or 2 miles of tunneling between the university and Downtown LA. 

 

But what we're seeing here is the same problem I've been arguing for awhile -- that use of these abandoned freight corridors often means transit lines are built through odd parts of town.  In Cincinnati we are lucky in that the Wasson Rd. line is pretty ideal, as is the CL&N RR north of Xavier University.  Meanwhile the CL&N south of XU is bad news, and the Oasis line rebuilt as heavy commuter rail per the Eastern Corridor Project makes no sense.

 

 

The Expo Line uses the right-of-way of the former Pacific Electric Air Line, which was an interurban passenger line. The Santa Monica Freeway (I-10) was later built along a good portion of the Air Line's right-of-way, which no doubt wiped out a lot of walkable development that once existed along its path.

 

The line starts in downtown LA and hits USC, downtown Culver City, and will eventually hit Santa Monica College, downtown Santa Monica, and the oceanfront. All those areas are dense residential and employment centers, and even the "nondescript" areas in between typically consist of tightly-packed 2-4-story apartment buildings. In addition, the Expo Line will serve as the starting point for future Crenshaw Corridor service to LAX. When fully open, this will be the first rail transit service between downtown LA and Santa Monica in over 50 years, and I don't think it's possible to overstate how huge this will be. Although considered "light rail", the trains use high-level boarding like a typical subway train, and the vast majority of the right-of-way is entirely grade-separated.

 

The grand opening of the segment between downtown and La Cienega Boulevard will be on the 28th of this month, and I'm hoping to attend. If I do, I'll be sure to post plenty of photos. (The segment to downtown Culver City is scheduled to open this summer, and the second phase to Santa Monica is still a couple years away.)

I honestly don't know what the hell people are doing to wipe out on those tracks. 

 

Here is a photo I took in Portland in 2009:

 

And another, of people dangerously close to those sneaky tracks:

 

 

^ thank you Jake. For a second I thought we were gonna have to deal with bicyclists protesting the streetcar tracks.

Oh noes! This bike lane doesn't cross these tracks at 90 degrees!

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Amsterdam,+The+Netherlands&hl=en&ll=52.347348,4.891148&spn=0.004332,0.013078&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.736609,107.138672&oq=amsterdam&t=h&hnear=Amsterdam,+Government+of+Amsterdam,+North+Holland,+The+Netherlands&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.347351,4.891221&panoid=lqofEhAZxWVK6gPBsSsNLA&cbp=12,34.11,,0,7.9

http://g.co/maps/pr5sh

 

Danger! Danger!

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Amsterdam,+The+Netherlands&hl=en&ll=52.355782,4.890504&spn=0.004331,0.013078&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.736609,107.138672&oq=amsterdam&t=h&hnear=Amsterdam,+Government+of+Amsterdam,+North+Holland,+The+Netherlands&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.355586,4.890473&panoid=6RderI8LayFCPM7VHGOG0A&cbp=12,171.1,,0,11.22

http://g.co/maps/ntvtm

I wiped out on the tracks in Elm Street in front of Music Hall, but I did in on purpose, to test the limits of what I could do. My assessment is that streetcar rails are a hazard to bicyclists, but a hazard that can be tolerated because the risk is low in comparison to the utility of streetcar service. There are other features in the street that present a greater hazard, such as storm sewer grates.

 

It is possible that replacing the storm sewer grates with bicycle-friendly grates, or better yet eliminating the grates altogether in favor of curb inlets, along with the streetcar project will actually reduce the total hazards to bicyclists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wiped out on the tracks in Elm Street in front of Music Hall, but I did in on purpose

 

Please tell me you have this on video

I just can't help but wonder why someone would be so committed to creating a virtual encyclopedia of every single last possible problem that has, could be associated with streetcars. This thread has become the "federalist papers" of cincinnati streetcars, only longer. What could be the motivation for focusing more attention on a modest little streetcar line than was given the creation of the U.S. constitution? Can criticizing streetcars be a hobby, like woodworking or gardening?Not 'streetcars', but 'criticizing streetcars' as a hobby. It that what eigth and state is doing? indulging a hobby?

^ Perhaps all the excessive scrutiny, second guessing, and complaining have become our streetcar supporters' way of venting their anxiety.  Most everyone is frustrated by the fact that Cincinnati's own "Portlandnese Postcard" hasn't yet materialized.  Like a scene from one of those western land rush movies (where settlers nervously awaited the "cutting of the ribbon" so they could charge forward to claim new territory), I think we're all simply bored from the seemingly endless constraints.  Just when will Cincinnatians be able to hop on one of those beautiful transit-vehicles for themselves?  (Ask Duke, right?  The beat goes on...) 

...streetcar rails are a hazard to bicyclists, but a hazard that can be tolerated because the risk is low in comparison to the utility of streetcar service.

 

That's the key, and it's a mindset that really needs to be applied to more projects when NIMBYs come out in opposition to something.  That still doesn't mean there isn't a concern to be addressed.  Photos of people riding across and around streetcar tracks doesn't prove that they're not a hazard.  They are more hazardous than if they weren't there, and there are geometric issues that make some situations more dangerous for cyclists than others.  As I mentioned before, tracks crossing at acute angles are one of the worst.  Cyclists crash at the tracks on Camargo Road in Madeira all the time because of the angle, the slippery rubber, impatient car drivers, and the narrow road that requires you to swerve into the oncoming lane if you want to cross at anything close to a 90º angle. 

 

Camargo is also a highly used cycling route, while the streets in downtown and OTR near the streetcar route are generally not, at least not any one in particular.  Nevertheless, as more people move to OTR you're likely to see more people cycling around the area, as the types of people who are attracted to such a neighborhood with good transit are also a lot more likely to be cyclists of some sort as well. 

 

Anyway, because the street network is a highly connected grid, it's easy to go a block or two away to avoid the tracks.  Also, because the streets are all 4 lanes wide or more (including parking lanes of course), there's room for cyclists to ride on that street without having to engage the tracks too often.  Areas of concern would be where the streetcar turns at street corners and where it changes lanes.  Main Street and Freedom Way at The Banks are really tough because the streetcar takes up the one lane going northbound and eastbound on those respective streets, so a cyclist would have to ride squeezed up to parked cars or cross onto the tracks at an acute angle and ride between the rails.  The tracks also shift lanes, and in some cases go completely from one side of the street to the other in the downtown core, but my understanding is that they're trying to smooth this out a bit, so I won't worry too much about it at this point.  Still, there's a lot of corners because of the way the route zig-zags around, and those are also an issue.  Some places have tried putting in thick rubber flange fillers that are level with the pavement but can be squashed by the train as it goes by.  This helps a lot, but they're apparently not very durable and are a maintenance problem.  They also can't be used with standard streetcar rail, because the flange isn't deep enough.  The simplest and probably most effective solution would be to paint some safe paths for bikes to use when crossing streetcar tracks, and to have signs that tell motorists to yield to cyclists as necessary. 

 

As stated in Eighth and State's quote above, the positives of the streetcar far outweigh the negatives in this case, but there ARE some negatives.  It behooves everyone to try to mitigate those negatives as much as possible.  We don't want animosity to develop between groups who are for the most part on the same side, like is happening with the Wasson Way situation. 

I wiped out on the tracks in Elm Street in front of Music Hall, but I did in on purpose, to test the limits of what I could do.

 

Wha-wha-what? You're kidding, right? Come on.

 

Couple points here:

1) Why would you do that?

2) How do you intentionally line up your bike so that you "slip" on the tracks?

3) By you intentionally falling, doesn't that defeat the purpose? No one rides close to streetcar tracks with the intention of wiping out... except you apparently.

4) Those rails on Elm are surrounded by Cobblestone and not similar to modern streetcar tracks, so I'm not sure how you're able to judge.

5) Seriously, if you're not lying, why would you do that?

 

Look, I've heard you're a nice guy from UO members who have met you and I don't doubt that. How committed are you to being the "cautious skeptic," though? You're grabbing at crumbs now.This bicycle thing is a non-issue, another distracting problem that takes away from the real conversation. The streetcar is coming dude, whether you can ride your bike on its rails or not.

Like the postings of all the manhole pics from across the country that showed up here a month ago, I guess we need to start posting our pics of cyclists with their bikes riding on light rail or streetcars all over the world.

This is actually about natural selection.  I have crossed inumerable railroad and streetcar tracks while bicycling, and it's never even occured to me that one could wipe out. 

 

But since bicyling is fashionable now, we have people riding in high heels and python boots, in grandma skirts and sombreros, with battery-powered christmas lights in their spokes while taking videos of themselves with their cell phones.  They can no longer simply lock their bike to a parking meter or telephone pole wire, it can only be locked to a high-kitch bike coral made to resemble Toad from Super Mario 2, or lifted high on a chain link fence so that a purposefully clashing handlbar tape color scheme can be seen for blocks. 

They can no longer simply lock their bike to a parking meter or telephone pole wire, it can only be locked to a high-kitch bike coral made to resemble Toad from Super Mario 2

 

:-o

I have crossed inumerable railroad and streetcar tracks while bicycling, and it's never even occured to me that one could wipe out.

 

Please.  You really need to stop using the logic of "I have never personally had a problem with X, therefore X is not a problem."  Someone on a mountain bike is unlikely to have an issue with tracks, but a road bike certainly can.  The people crashing on Camargo aren't hipsters in high heels and skirts, many of them are experienced racers who ride several thousand miles per year and know how to handle difficult riding situations.  If an angled railroad track can take them down, they can take down anyone, ESPECIALLY if it doesn't occur to them that it could be a hazard. 

^So lets educate the public. "Look out for rail transit tracks, they can be dangerous when riding your bike."

 

Boom. Issue solved. Can we get back to discussing the streetcar now?

Seattle created bike lane/sharrow things to show people how to cross

 

Here's a video I don't know how to embed

 

http://www.streetfilms.org/how-to-properly-cross-rail-tracks-on-your-bike/

 

Also this I never knew there were [glow=red,2,300]glow [/glow]and [shadow=red,left]shadow [/shadow]options

I honestly don't know what the hell people are doing to wipe out on those tracks.

 

Do you even own a road bike with 700x23 tires? Here is an image of a road bike:

 

 

There are stark differences in the handling of bikes due to the tire profile - width, contour, profile, et al. Mountain bikes, unless they get the tire stuck in the track depression, shouldn't have an issue but a road cyclist could just by crossing at a wrong angle.

 

When I was covering a cycling event along Old Frankfort Pike and around last year west of Lexington, Kentucky, the event route took you through two at-grade railroad crossings. One was angled with the road at a 45-degree angle, while the other was at a 90-degree angle. Of course, I set up shop next to both and saw quite a few wipe outs at the 45-degree angle crossing. You have to pretty much swerve left and then cross dead-on to have the lowest chance of crashing.

 

That said, this is a non-issue for the streetcar. Many cities have in-ground rail lines and the associated risk is quite low in comparison to other issues that can crop up with a streetcar (or light rail, or street-running freight lines).

I've ridden my ROAD bike down elm along the old streetcar tracks numerous times. The only difference is that I am actively trying to not wipe out on them. You would think any sane biker would be aware of their surroundings. If they aren't they shouldn't be biking. Same for automobile drivers. If you slip up on the tracks its your fault, not the streetcar rails fault.

Wha-wha-what? You're kidding, right? Come on.

No, I'm not kidding. I really did try it. The reason I tried it was to see if it was really a problem.

Honestly, I fell pretty hard, and was surprised. I was riding at low speed, and didn't get hurt, but a lot of people saw me, and I felt really dumb. I proved to myself that streetcar rails are a hazard to bicyclists. I was on an old 10-speed bike with skinny tires, and when my front tire got caught, there was no correcting possible.

That said, I TRIED to get the front tire caught, and was riding on the rail, parallel to the track.

 

Allow me to state my conclusions again:

1. It is possible to wipe out on streetcar rails. This is a hazard.

2. In my opinion this hazard can be tolerated, and I would not allow the bicycle issue to prevent construction of streetcar rails.