The Enquirer's piece on today's vote: City moving money in place for streetcar

 

The interesting bit from that article:

 

"Of the two actions, the revision of Cincinnati’s 2006 sale of about 130 acres to the city of Blue Ash could have the more significant impact on the streetcar project....City officials previously said they hoped to use the airport sale proceeds to cover payments on about $11 million in streetcar bonds...The Federal Aviation Administration, however, raised objections, telling City Hall it would have to keep the sale revenue within its airport system, which includes Lunken Airport in the East End....But by rescinding the original sale and approving a new deal with some procedural changes, the city can sidestep that potential restriction on use of the Blue Ash revenue, which will be paid over 24 years.

 

“If the agreement was not restructured, the proceeds probably couldn’t be used (for the streetcar) without the risk of litigation,” said City Solicitor John Curp."

 

It seems that the City has found a creative way around Finney's threatened lawsuit regarding the use of the BAA sale to fund the Streetcar.  :clap:

 

Chris Blitherman was on 700 with Willie to discuss the Motel 6 shennanigans from this past weekend.  Of course he spent most of his time bashing the streetcar.  Ever notice how he pronounces "streetcar"?  Something about the way he says it is completely annoying.  What an idiot.

Chris Blitherman was on 700 with Willie to discuss the Motel 6 shennanigans from this past weekend.  Of course he spent most of his time bashing the streetcar.  Ever notice how he pronounces "streetcar"?  Something about the way he says it is completely annoying.  What an idiot.

 

What are the motel6 shennanigans from this past weekend? I must have missed something.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I just googled it.

Google Motel 6 Sharonville NAACP

^ Careful, one of the first links from that search goes to the Stormfront white supremacist website. Now I need to clear my browser history, burn my computer's hard drive, and take a long shower.

Well, get ready for the Chris Smitherman show this week.  He hasn't  gotten any attention as of late. 

 

I have a feeling he'll be on 55KRC and/or Scott Sloan tomorrow

The votes were 6-2. I have a sneaking suspicion I know who the missing member was. The Mitt Romney of Cincinnati himself.

The votes were 6-2. I have a sneaking suspicion I know who the missing member was. The Mitt Romney of Cincinnati himself.

 

P.G. Sittenfeld?

 

 

^ Bingo.

If Cincinnati had gotten the 2012 Olympics, the big money would have installed 27 year-old Sittenfeld to "turn around" the Cincinnati olympics, in preparation for a 2016 or 2020 presidential run. 

We really should be trying to host the 2021 World Games- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Games_2013

The city is moving forward on vehicle procurement and selecting a contractor -- there are many contractors interested, apparently -- and so at some point Duke's dragging its feet will be very apparent to everyone. 

 

Except the news media and those in the general public who still reads/listens to them.

A complete set of construction drawings was delivered to the city a week ago. Now city staffers are going over them and are about to hire a construction cost estimator. Rail will be ordered soon.

 

Is there any way I can take a look at those drawings?

 

The city is moving forward on vehicle procurement and selecting a contractor -- there are many contractors interested, apparently -- and so at some point Duke's dragging its feet will be very apparent to everyone. 

 

Procrastination is a legitimate strategy. It is my opinion that Duke doesn't want this project - ar at least they don't want to contribute to it - and they think that biding their time will lead to the best outcome for them. If it doesn't get built, Duke saves all the trouble of moving the utilities. If it does get built, Duke at the very minimum puts off spending any effort on this project for as long as possible. The city should not expect every other party to drop what they were doing and help them out. because it just doesn't work that way.

We really should be trying to host the 2021 World Games- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Games_2013

 

I'm all in.

Smitherman went nuts again on 55krc. Basically implying everyone is going to die because of the streetcar

Smitherman went nuts again on 55krc. Basically implying everyone is going to die because of the streetcar

 

Haha, really?  What exactly did he say?

A complete set of construction drawings was delivered to the city a week ago. Now city staffers are going over them and are about to hire a construction cost estimator. Rail will be ordered soon.

 

Is there any way I can take a look at those drawings?

 

The city is moving forward on vehicle procurement and selecting a contractor -- there are many contractors interested, apparently -- and so at some point Duke's dragging its feet will be very apparent to everyone. 

 

Procrastination is a legitimate strategy. It is my opinion that Duke doesn't want this project - ar at least they don't want to contribute to it - and they think that biding their time will lead to the best outcome for them. If it doesn't get built, Duke saves all the trouble of moving the utilities. If it does get built, Duke at the very minimum puts off spending any effort on this project for as long as possible. The city should not expect every other party to drop what they were doing and help them out. because it just doesn't work that way.

 

Really?  You understand that this is a *public* utility, right?  It's not like they can just sit back and refuse to work with customers and municipalities where they do business because they disagree with a project.

 

Would it be okay for Duke to "procrastinate" when it came to, say, repairing the power lines at a Catholic Church?  Or in a predominantly African-American neighborhood?  After all, if they procrastinate, they can "put off" any effort and save themselves some money.  Maybe the "problem" would just go away by itself then.

I mean, Atlanta has lapped our streetcar project.  Their went from concept to construction in something like 12 months.  Obviously, utilities have to be moved there.  8th & State simply does not understand obstructionist politics and that a company can be employed to play the game. 

 

>Smitherman went nuts again on 55krc.

 

Later Brian Thomas applauded him as a "financial man" who "really has the city's best needs at heart".  Then said the rest of council "just doesn't understand money" or something like that. 

 

 

Meanwhile, Duke is raising cash for the effort to build that new bridge next to the BSB...

I mean, Atlanta has lapped our streetcar project.  Their went from concept to construction in something like 12 months.  Obviously, utilities have to be moved there.  8th & State simply does not understand obstructionist politics and that a company can be employed to play the game. 

>Smitherman went nuts again on 55krc.

Later Brian Thomas applauded him as a "financial man" who "really has the city's best needs at heart".  Then said the rest of council "just doesn't understand money" or something like that. 

right - like his plan for the city to use eminent domain to buy all the vacant houses in Cincinnati & sell 'em for $1 apiece to new owners who will promise to fix 'em up.

I heard Smitherman went on a tirade because the City's duke contract (for sale of street lights from like 3 or 4 years ago) specified the money was going to go to the Streetcar and so it couldn't be used for anything else.  Can anyone confirm?

^ True. And so?

The vote to re-do the Blue Ash Airport sale was finalized. Guess who voted against it?

 

Voted 6-3 to allow City Manager Milton Dohoney to rescind the 2006 sale of the Blue Ash Airport, return the money Blue Ash already paid (about $6 million) and re-do a new sale. Doing so will allow the city more leeway in using the $37 million Blue Ash will pay over time.

The city and Federal Aviation Administration have disagreed on the FAA’s insistence that the money be used only for aviation purposes. So now, the city can rescind that deal, return the money, close the airport and then re-do the deal. Then, the money can be used for many things, including $11 million for the streetcar project. Opposed: Sittenfeld, Smitherman and Winburn. The city has not yet decided how the remaining $26 million will be spent, said Meg Olberding, Dohoney’s spokeswoman.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120801/NEWS/308010115/City-will-vote-doubling-council-terms?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

 

The same clown posse were the lone votes against extending Council terms to 4 years (placing the issue on the ballot for the Voters to decide). PG should change his name to Mitt Jr, or perhaps to CincyRomney.

 

 

^Unless you have $37 million in capital improvements needed at Lunken that you think are the most important capital projects in the city, why would you vote against re-papering the deal?

Fun fact: total of all monies collected by the City of Cincinnati at the Blue Ash Airport from all sources including landing fees and hangar rentals: less than $40,000.

Fun fact: total of all monies collected by the City of Cincinnati at the Blue Ash Airport from all sources including landing fees and hangar rentals: less than $40,000.

 

Talk about your boondoggles! The BAA provided no benefit to the People of Cincinnati, it was simply a government funded handout that benefited a few wealthy airplane hobbyists. And the City of Blue Ash obviously saw no benefit from operating the airport either since they rejected taking the airport over and instead opted to redevelop the land that it sits on. Good riddance.

Fun fact: total of all monies collected by the City of Cincinnati at the Blue Ash Airport from all sources including landing fees and hangar rentals: less than $40,000.

 

Talk about your boondoggles! The BAA provided no benefit to the People of Cincinnati, it was simply a government funded handout that benefited a few wealthy airplane hobbyists. And the City of Blue Ash obviously saw no benefit from operating the airport either since they rejected taking the airport over and instead opted to redevelop the land that it sits on. Good riddance.

 

Where is COAST when you need them? Funny how they focus only on the streetcar.

Fun fact: total of all monies collected by the City of Cincinnati at the Blue Ash Airport from all sources including landing fees and hangar rentals: less than $40,000.

 

Talk about your boondoggles! The BAA provided no benefit to the People of Cincinnati, it was simply a government funded handout that benefited a few wealthy airplane hobbyists. And the City of Blue Ash obviously saw no benefit from operating the airport either since they rejected taking the airport over and instead opted to redevelop the land that it sits on. Good riddance.

 

Where is COAST when you need them? Funny how they focus only on the streetcar.

 

I should clarify -- it's less than $40,000 per year. And you're right, how come COAST isn't bitching about this. I mean, an airport site worth $20 - 30 million grossing -- not netting -- only $40,000 per year. I guess you could say, "it will never pay for itself."

I should clarify -- it's less than $40,000 per year. And you're right, how come COAST isn't bitching about this. I mean, an airport site worth $20 - 30 million grossing -- not netting -- only $40,000 per year. I guess you could say, "it will never pay for itself."

 

This seems like a bombshell news story --- one that you'll never see in the Enquirer.

^ Cincinnnati should thank Milton Dohoney for having the guts to get rid of it despite the well-organized opposition of a bunch of well-connected private pilots who have long enjoyed a wasting asset which yields no economic benefit for Cincinnatians.

Let me be clear up front - I think the city selling ISZ is a good idea.  It was underutilized and has a higher and better use at this point in its life.

 

However, there are a few issues that I'm sure played into the length of time it took to get to this point:

 

1) Grant assurances - If FAA funded any projects at the airport, they have to stay in use at the airport for 20 years. (This is the issue noted above that required re-structuring the deal.)  Pavement, equipment, navaids, etc., would have to stay in aviation use, otherwise their pro-rated costs would need to be repaid to the FAA.

 

2) Once an airport closes, it will never be reactivated.  As a result, the FAA and city needed to be absolutely sure they would never want the airport again.  The closure would have to be included in the state's and city's system plans, which are usually years in the making.

 

3) I'm not sure of the history of projects at ISZ, nor am I educated on how the operating budgets at ISZ and LUK are compiled, but it's likely that either ISZ didn't cost $40k per year to maintain, or there was a small amount of cross-subsidy from LUK's revenue.  ISZ probably only needed lawnmowing and some incidentals.  The labor was probably provided part-time by DOTE workers employed in various capacities.  There would be some utility charges and basic lighting maintenance, again provided by other DOTE functions.  Pavement maintenance and re-striping are FAA eligible and need only a 10% local match.

 

As for the "no economic benefit" comment, it's true that many Cincinnatians probably don't even know the airport exists.  The $40k gross income to the city is misleading, however - there are several businesses involved in commerce and which employ workers.  As of 2006, it was 75 employees making $2m per year and generating $7m in output (primary and multiplier impacts).  Then you get into nebulous concepts like expedited access to the national air transport system that are hard to put a dollar figure on, but will be affected by its closure. 

 

Many people think an airport like ISZ or Sporty's are a playground for the rich - and in part they are - but they nevertheless provide economic benefit.  Is it the same as a business park on the same land in the heart of Blue Ash?  No.  But it's a positive number.

^ Clearly the operation of the BAA has some benefit, but not much of it accrues to the City of Cincinnati. And there is little total benefit in relation to what the land is worth. The most revealing truth is that even the City of Blue Ash doesn't feel it is worth keeping in operation, and it probably gets most of the benefits.

Only somewhat on topic - Could we please stop using airport codes? I got halfway through your post before I had any idea what "ISZ" meant. Its the same thing in the aviation thread. Now, I understand that many on here DO know seemingly every airport code in the country, but not all of us are so lucky. I personally only know a couple (CVG, CLE, CMH, IND, LGA), but people are using them for smaller airports like Akron, the Blue Ash Airport, etc.

 

Thanks & /rant.

 

:-)

 

[p.s. I'm going to post this in the aviation thread as well.]

Also, Cincinnati once owned much more land in Blue Ash.  Blue Ash didn't become the sleepy home of corporate office campuses we know today until Cincinnati started selling off the unused airport land and did so with stipulations that ensured it could not compete directly with DT Cincinnati. Specifically, it had to be built at a very low density which forced the low-rise campuses.  So if a company wanted a skyscraper, they had to go to Cincinnati.  If they wanted a campus, then they could build in Blue Ash. 

 

When a mid-sized city has a "downtown" competitor, it's a disaster.  Clayton, about 10 miles from DT St. Louis, is like a real downtown but is actually in the center of the metro area, unlike DT St. Louis, which is on the eastern edge of the metro. 

 

The recent sale of the remainder of the airport land (the actual active part of the airport) was done with stipulations that again prevent it from competing directly with Cincinnati. 

 

^ Why they couldn't use such foresight regarding utility expansion is beyond me.

Fun fact: total of all monies collected by the City of Cincinnati at the Blue Ash Airport from all sources including landing fees and hangar rentals: less than $40,000.

 

Everyone has their favorite pet government project. I like the United States Geological Survey (USGS), which most have never heard of. The Blue Ash Airport was someone's baby. So is the Cincinnati Union Terminal, the Showboat Majestic, French Park, the Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority, the Drop-in Center, and countless more.

 

The Proposed Cincinnati Streetcar is a pet project to a lot of folks. We can argue all day about whether or not it will pan out economically; it may or may not, and I tend to think it will not. But you have to recognize that whether you are in favor of it or not, it takes on the characteristics of a pet project. It doesn't matter what the economic studies say; at the end of the day, someone has to make a decision whether to build it or not, and that decision has a lot of emotion wrapped up into it. In fact, this project has more emotion than most projects.

 

Interestingly, I remember a time when City Council voted NOT to sell the airport, on the assumption that all land would increase in value in the future and Cincinnati should invariably hold on to all the land she can.

COA T(Mark Miller) is now lobbying the Blue Ash city council and mayor to reject the Airport sale to Cincinnati. 

 

The guy really needs a job.  He is so emotionally invested in stopping a streetcar project that it consumes every second of every day of his life. 

 

South Park accurately depicted him in this episode (switch World of Warcraft with Cincinnati Streetcar/twitter/blogs/Enquirer).  Note at :21 seconds.  That is the face he realized Chabot's efforts failed

 

 

^ Think you're right about that. I mean, the guy's in his Fifties -- his peak earnings years -- and he seems to have nothing better to do than play Cops and Robbers with the city on the streetcar project. He's not a bad guy. Kinda sad, really.

 

 

 

The Proposed Cincinnati Streetcar is a pet project to a lot of folks. We can argue all day about whether or not it will pan out economically; it may or may not, and I tend to think it will not. But you have to recognize that whether you are in favor of it or not, it takes on the characteristics of a pet project. It doesn't matter what the economic studies say; at the end of the day, someone has to make a decision whether to build it or not, and that decision has a lot of emotion wrapped up into it. In fact, this project has more emotion than most projects.

 

That's one of the main reasons we up here in C-Bus are having trouble putting together a streetcar project. Not enough people with the right kind of knowledge are willing to make the kind of effort it takes to really push forward the cause -- despite the lack of ridiculous opposition seen in Cincinnati.

^You know, in the old days streetcar companies were started by corporations who ooerated them at a profit. There was no problem raising capital to start a new line.

 

90% of the effort with the streetcar project is convincing the public, or their representatives at all levels from the City of Cincinnati to the federal government, including folks at the FAA concerning the airport, that the streetcar project is a worthy cause. If the streetcar proponents had started off with lots of cash and just built the thing, it would have been a different story.

 

The number one reason why businesses fail is undercapitalization. It is possible to use other people's money to achieve your goals, but only if those other people are willing to part with their money to help you.

It is possible to use other people's money to achieve your goals, but only if those other people are willing to part with their money to help you.

 

^HEY, here's an idea: Let's vote on it! Oh, wait, the public has TWICE. And the streetcar's under construction so...what's your point?

The two elections so far did not provide any funding for the streetcar, they merely refused to block it. Saying that you support the streetcar and actually putting up the money to build it are two different things.  And while I am aware that progress is being made, I wouldn't use the words "The streetcar is under construction," at least not yet.

 

The tone of this forum over the past few days is that COAST, WLW, Steve Chabot, private airplane pilots, or what have you are responsible for the delay in the streetcar project. I don't buy it. The delay is due to the fact that the project has been underfunded. A well-funded project would have been built by now, despite the opposition. That's my point.

 

 

The project has been fully funded since 2008, when council approved the sale of bonds.  Issue 9 and Issue 48 delayed this project by at least a year, and more like two years.   

^^^Police and fire departments used to be owned by private corporations too. So the F what.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_firefighting#United_States

 

 

 

BTW, as far as I and others can determine Mark Miller is unemployed. His company, Plummetrics, has been out of business for well over a year now.  Mallory and Dohoney stopped Finney's promised lawsuit over use of the BAA funds with the BAA sale redo, and Finney and his fellow COASTies are furious about it.  It was Finney's last ditch hope to stop the streetcar from being built. Their latest blog and twitter antics are merely them acting out like a bunch of two year olds.

BTW, as far as I and others can determine Mark Miller is unemployed. His company, Plummetrics, has been out of business for well over a year now.  Mallory and Dohoney stopped Finney's promised lawsuit over use of the BAA funds with the BAA sale redo, and Finney and his fellow COASTies are furious about it.  It was Finney's last ditch hope to stop the streetcar from being built. Their latest blog and twitter antics are merely them acting out like a bunch of two year olds.

 

That's an insult to two-year-olds.

8th & state, I've been told by a friend consulting on the projec that because of all the ballot initiatives & everything COAST did, Duke assumed the project would never happen & hadn't even considered preliminary engineering until after this past election because they just blew off the city & assumed the project wouldn't happen.

 

That right there puts everything behind.

^ True statement. Plus let's not forget Kasich's taking $52 million from the project, some of which had to be replaced with Fed funds which are very time-consuming to win. And then there's COAST's lobbying the County to forbid the use of MSD funds.

 

I think it's interesting, by the way, that COAST, which supposedly believes decisions should be made at the lowest level possible, has consistently resorted to higher levels of government -- Monzel at the county level, Shannon Jones and Kasich at the state level and now Chabot at the Federal level -- to intercede and try to thwart a local project that voters have approved. "We Demand a Vote!" -- remember. Well they got one, two actually, and they lost. So a vote doesn't really mean much.

 

That, and their total silence on highway boondoggles -- several come to mind -- makes me think they are simple opportunists who use government any way they can to preserve the status quo. There is nothing principled about what they do.

^The utilities didn't take this project seriously for a number of reasons. The ballot initiatives influenced the outcome, but also the lack of funding did.

 

If the city had started with $250 million in cash instead of $110 or so million or so, some of which came from sources that may or may not materialize, the project probably would have been built by now. I'm sure Duke would have been happy to move the utilities if the City had paid them to do it. Same with MSD, etc. And COAST and others would not have had time to do anything about it.

 

Maybe they didn't have $250 million in cash? Then they should have considered a smaller project.

 

What has actually happened so far is that the city has been able to get by with a smaller cash outlay, but at the expense of time and goodwill. By contrast, the stadium project went the other way. They got the project completed in short order, but at a high expense. You just can't get a project done with a low budget and a tight schedule. I am not surprised at all that the streetcar project has taken this long, though it looks more and more that it will actually get built.

 

 

Did you read what I wrote?  The original Phase 1, from The Banks to Findlay Market, was fully funded by 2008.  We were basically ready to break ground at that point.  Then Issue 9 happened throughout 2009.  Then in 2010 we got the $50 million from Ohio to build up the Vine St. hill.  Then Kasich was elected in November 2010 and the money was taken back in April 2011.  Then Issue 48 happened throughout 2011.  Then we had a groundbreaking back in early 2012 and utility work has been underway since. I mean, the whole premise of your argument is destroyed by the facts.   

 

The stadium argument is a totally different animal.  Talks about what to do with the riverfront predated the 1996 stadium sales tax vote by several years.  It was close to 10 years between The Bengals and Reds first taking steps to have new stadiums constructed and when they opened for play.  I mean, even if we take the stadium tax as year 0, it was still 7 years between 1996 and the opening of Great American Ballpark in 2003. 

 

 

^ "I mean, the whole premise of your argument is destroyed by the facts."

 

Not for the first time, and probably not the last. Why does he post?