What is issue 4?

It's on whether to extend council terms to four years.

Im not sure. Something about council members pay and term limits. The ad I heard was vote no on issue 4.

Its not about pay at all. Its about extending council terms from 2- to 4-year terms. I'm in favor... though this isn't the thread for that convo...

Ah, okay. I knew that was an issue but I didn't know the number. If UrbanOhioans aren't talking about it, I don't know about it.

 

What's the status on streetcar utility relocation? I mean, aside from the Duke posturing.

I've been told they are down to one thing:

 

Duke wants a status of forces agreement (jk.. they want some special rules in place on how and when they can stop the streetcar).  The City is fine with that in concept, but Duke is asking for way too much right now and approving its request would be unprecedented and lead to a situation where the City can't control what happens in its streets. 

 

Duke won't give the City a construction schedule (how long they estimate moving utilities will take) until this agreement is signed.  The City wants the schedule so they can go to bid and then will work with duke on the agreement over the next few months. 

 

My friend has said the City could go to bid as soon as Nov 1 if Duke gives them the schedule.  Nov. 1 bid date means full on construction could start, weather permitting as soon as late january/early february.

Do any of you realize Duke paid no federal Income taxes for 4 years?

Do any of you realize Duke paid no federal Income taxes for 4 years?

weren't they coming in at -7% for a couple years?

talk about living large

The No on Issue 4 backers have released a YouTube video (radio ad) featuring Amy Murry & Charlie Luken in which the former Mayor states 4 year terms means "more money for streetcars, more tax hikes, and more stupid projects."

 

 

^Tom Luken, not Charlie. 

No, he meant Charlie. Watch/listen to the video.

No, he meant Charlie. Watch/listen to the video.

 

The booze soaked nut doesn't fall from the tree.

^ Hilarious - I saw old Chuck out at the ATP one year, and he was deee-runk.  Literally falling down and could not stay on his feet.  It was a little surreal at first since he was mayor at the time, but the group we were with still could not stop laughing.  I am still a little surprised he has come out against this though.

 

Back on topic, is there anything the city can do to pressure Duke into not being such a roadblock?  It really seems they are dragging their feet in hopes of some changes in political office.  Personally, I am really nervous about this presidential election and the potential repercussions if Obama does not win.  His administration has been a saving grace in light of our own state's attempts to derail (no  pun intended) this project.

Do what Schneider did. Switch your natgas provider. And tell Duke why you switched. Hell, make a boycott out of it with a press release and even an anti-Duke rally.

 

Back on topic, is there anything the city can do to pressure Duke into not being such a roadblock?  It really seems they are dragging their feet in hopes of some changes in political office.  Personally, I am really nervous about this presidential election and the potential repercussions if Obama does not win.  His administration has been a saving grace in light of our own state's attempts to derail (no  pun intended) this project.

 

Exactly!  What's the possibility that a Romney DOT could yank in the Federal dollars the same way Kasich did with the state money?

^ You never know. He may if he see's Hamilton country voted against him but still won. But he can't do anything that's already been allocated.

^But he can't do anything that's already been allocated.

Right, for the most part. The response I wanted to hear...but I fear it's a bit more complicated.  What I remember from my days managing Federal grants (in a different time/place) is this.  "Allocated" as used here embraces two different concepts: 1 awarded, and 2 obligated.  Cincinnati has funds awarded-ie promised to a particular grantee for a specific project. 

 

Obligated funds are monies which have been awarded to the grantee and subsequently contracted to a specific vendor (usually private contractor) by way of the grantees approved procurement process (example for building rolling stock or laying rails).  Normally federally-awarded funds must be obligated within a period of time (normally a few months but sometimes longer) or the funds can be recalled by the Feds.  State money can be more flexible, but I wonder if this may have been one of the technicalities Kasich used to yank the State money.  Anyway,  the decision to recall money usually has political overtones, and this is exactly what scares me.  Based on Romney's campaign statements he is no friend of passenger rail.  I assume the City is fully aware and I'm certain they are moving to lock the Federal funds safely into the project.

 

I've been told all federal funds other than TIGER3 have indeed been obligated.  TIGER 3 should be obligated in the next few weeks.

I've been told all federal funds other than TIGER3 have indeed been obligated.  TIGER 3 should be obligated in the next few weeks.

 

Legally you are absolutely right... But I can't ever doubt the opponents and their creativity to destroy things.

 

Kasich corrupts the trac board to remove state funds already dedicated to the number 1 scoring project in the state

 

Shannon jones slipping in an amendment to prohibit state funds

 

Steve Chabot trying to sneak in yet another rider to do the same at the federal level

 

You're right octo though. 

 

This is the opponents gameplan to stop the project:

 

1) lean on Duke. Do everything they can from all angles to put the pressure on duke to hold out until after the election. If Obama is re-elected, continue to lean on them at the state level. I have no doubt in my mind elected state(and a few fed) officials are putting pressure on duke

 

2) if duke folds or loses in court, focus on future phases immediately.

 

3) local elections next year. Get an anti streetcar mayor and council to kill the project. Smitherman and his buddies cranley/Murray have already said they would "stop construction immediately" regardless of how far along construction is. In this years election, Neil Donovan running for sheriff supports the city and the streetcar. The other guy is COASTs wet dream.

 

4) Naturally talk radio and the woeful ignorance of local media catering to revenue first and foremost  is and has been instrumental in them getting misinformation and propaganda out there.

 

 

Meet the person whose name tends to surface with respect to Duke's dealings regarding the Cincinnati Streetcar, described by one elected official as "Delta Burke without the Southern charm."

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20121029/EDIT02/310290017/A-tribute-my-time-well-spent-Cincinnati?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p

 

[fixed link]

Frivolous Finney files his lawsuit to stop the airport sale:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/10/29/taxpayer-suit-filed-to-stop-blue-ash.html

Frivolous Finney files his lawsuit to stop the airport sale:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/10/29/taxpayer-suit-filed-to-stop-blue-ash.html

 

The streetcar opponents are literally losing their minds right in front of us

Do what Schneider did. Switch your natgas provider. And tell Duke why you switched. Hell, make a boycott out of it with a press release and even an anti-Duke rally.

 

I get my electric through the city's provider through the aggregation deal (not Duke), and I don't have gas at my house. So I think there's nothing else I can do directly.

Check this out:

 

http://wvxu.org/post/cincinnati-has-plan-prevent-streetcar-delay

 

:clap:

 

Still not happy with Duke though.

^ That article is dated September 19th. City Council has already taken (and passed) the required votes, and as far as I know there haven't been any major developments since then.

Anyone know is Metro will operate this? Will their monthly pass be valid for this system?

Metro is supposed to be the operator, yes. I don't see why there wouldn't be some sort of reciprocity with fares... IMO, they should use a shared system.

Steve Chabot's top campaign contributors include:

 

National Auto Dealers Association: $10,000

Automotive Free International Trade PAC: $7,500

Exxon Mobil: $5,000

 

That explains a lot of why the streetcar is 'stupid'

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/11/02/here-are-steve-chabots-top.html

 

^ Politics makes for strange bedfellows here, too.  MLB, the NFL, the Reds, and the Bengals combine for just as much as those three.  One would contend that the Reds and Bengals stand to gain from the "stupid" streetcar. 

 

P&G is in the mix, too - it's easy to think the world HQ would stand to gain as well.

 

In other news, MLB and the NFL give to political campaigns? [/derail]

Anyone know is Metro will operate this? Will their monthly pass be valid for this system?

 

Yes, metro will be operating this, which is the one and only thing that really worries me about this system.  In my opinion, Metro has serious issues running an effective bus system and I have fears they could be just as bad at running the streetcar system.  I guess time will tell.

As to your question about their monthly passes...I wouldn't assume that they will do what makes sense.  Nothing they do with the bus system makes any sense or lines up with real bus systems in major cities, so I wouldn't assume they would doing something as common sense as make their monthly passes good for both bus and train.

Can I ask where you get such a negative opinion of Metro?

^^ What exactly do you think is so bad? They are making major strides to updating the system: Google Maps integration, a responsive Twitter feed, new "hubs" opening up, new fare system with smarter cards (more flexible and allowing rolling monthly passes instead of calendar month passes), a more efficient UC*Metro program (not ideal, but much better than before), and more. Sure there are some things left to be desired, but I think Metro has been making major strides in the past couple of years.

^ Agreed. While far from perfect, I think Metro generally does the best they can with the resources they have available.

 

As for the streetcar, I can't think of any reason why the streetcar's fare system wouldn't be fully integrated with the bus system. It would cost Metro more money and be a logistical and PR nightmare for Metro to have two completely different fare systems.

So if metro will be operating it. Im assuming the streetcar budget will be merged with metro? Maybe there could be additional grants that can be had.

Or, much like CPS contracts w/ Metro for bussing, the City will most likely do something similar. Just speculating, though.

Chabot  won. :(

Sean Donovan lost...

 

That means COAST stooge/anti city and anti streetcar Jim Neil will be Hamilton County Sheriff

Fortunately, neither Chabot nor Neil have any say on the streetcar project.

 

In other Cincinnati election news, Issue 4 narrowly passed.

Sean Donovan lost...

 

That means COAST stooge/anti city and anti streetcar Jim Neil will be Hamilton County Sheriff

 

To echo LivingInGin, thankfully the sheriff has no say in the streetcar project and even though Si Leis was supportive of it... it's still Si Leis.

 

Having spoken to a few friends who are Ham. Co. Sheriffs, Neil seemed to be their choice and kind of represented the "working man," so I hope it works out for them and the County.

 

In terms of the wider scope of things - I was very happy with the election results tonight. Since becoming involved with the streetcar project and learning to make public transit part of my life, I've really become aware of the "culture war" the Republican party wanted to fight. Public transit was the first issue to open my eyes to the other side.

 

I just hope that the re-election of Obama allows progress to continue not just on the Cincinnati Streetcar and other local transit related projects, but a move towards more support for cities and public transit across the nation. I can only assume that LaHood will be maintaining his post and we'll see more and more political support trickle down to the rails of the Cincinnati Streetcar when they're installed.

 

Also, COAST took a beating. HA!

Sean Donovan lost...

 

That means COAST stooge/anti city and anti streetcar Jim Neil will be Hamilton County Sheriff

 

This is because Donovan had an "R" next to his name and way, way too many people show up at the polls to vote for president and vote a straight ticket on everything else without doing any amount of research.  The guy who was naturally next in line, the clearly better candidate, and (on the topic of this thread) lives downtown near the streetcar route, is out because of a letter next to his name on the ballot.

Sean Donovan lost...

 

That means COAST stooge/anti city and anti streetcar Jim Neil will be Hamilton County Sheriff

 

This is because Donovan had an "R" next to his name and way, way too many people show up at the polls to vote for president and vote a straight ticket on everything else without doing any amount of research.  The guy who was naturally next in line, the clearly better candidate, and (on the topic of this thread) lives downtown near the streetcar route, is out because of a letter next to his name on the ballot.

^Then why didn't such a trend hold up for Treasurer, Prosecutor, or Clerk of Courts?

 

 

Discussion on the city's parking meter privatization has been moved here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,28035.new.html#new

>Also, COAST took a beating. HA!

 

Brad Wenstrup was elected to Jean Schmidt's seat.  COAST worked on getting her booted in the primary, but I'm not sure Wenstrup really "owes" COAST anything.  Hopefully he's smart enough to stop dealing with them in any way.

Does anyone know if the utility work being done along 12th St. in OTR right now is streetcar related?  It looks like Duke is burying all of the power lines or something.  Just curious if this is part of ongoing work on the streetcar route?

^Then why didn't such a trend hold up for Treasurer, Prosecutor, or Clerk of Courts?

 

Those positions were won on name recogition and a long history of service. Neil and Donovan were both new names.

^^ I believe that is part of the Pendleton Neighborhood Improvements: Construction Update - October 29, 2012- November 9, 2012, Section 4

Sean Donovan lost...

 

That means COAST stooge/anti city and anti streetcar Jim Neil will be Hamilton County Sheriff

 

Since becoming involved with the streetcar project and learning to make public transit part of my life, I've really become aware of the "culture war" the Republican party wanted to fight. Public transit was the first issue to open my eyes to the other side.

 

 

^ This pair of sentences may be the most important posted here in a long time. I feel the same way as Ronny, and I suspect many others do too.

 

I voted for every Republican president since Gerald Ford and in 2000 hosted George W. Bush's southwest Ohio campaign HQ's in one of my buildings. The R's eventually lost me for good over the Iraq War in 2003, but my experience as chairman of MetroMoves started to push me over the edge a year earlier. Congressman Steve Chabot and Hamilton County Commissioner John Dowlin were two of the three co-chairs of the opposition. In debate after debate with them and others, I came to conclude that some -- certainly not all -- Republicans really don't mind lying, the more artfully, the better. I believe they view governing with such contempt that lying to limit its reach and authority is morally justifiable to some of them.

 

In particular, I would often debate John Dowlin, sometimes twice a day. He would say something that was patently untrue in the morning, and I would correct him. Then he would say the same thing again that afternoon or evening. Happened several times. Dowlin was especially bad in this way. I also chaired the campaign which selected Great American Ball Park over Broadway Commons (sorry guys), and Dowlin was co-chair of the Broadway Commons side. Same thing: he'd lie, I'd correct him, and he'd lie again. Time after time.

 

I suspect that the R's opposition to the Cincinnati Streetcar has cost them many young and potentially-lifetime supporters going-forward. The streetcar is sort of emblematic of everything many young people value and many older R's don't: cities, diversity and choice. It has become a proxy for the culture wars. Time will cure this.

^^ I believe that is part of the Pendleton Neighborhood Improvements: Construction Update - October 29, 2012- November 9, 2012, Section 4

Perhaps it is.  Although, its a couple blocks away from Pendleton.  Its currently going on between Main and Vine St.  I thought maybe they had to bury all the overhead power lines so that they could make room for the streetcar power lines that will eventually be installed?  Oh well, I'm just anxious to see some more progress being made with this system!  With another 4 years of Obama I don't think we have to worry about the federal govt. trying to take away our funding like Kasich did.

The streetcar is sort of emblematic of everything many young people value and many older R's don't: cities, diversity and choice. It has become a proxy for the culture wars. Time will cure this.

 

I don't think it will. Conservatives generally tend to protect the status quo. Liberals generally tend to change it.

 

I encourage everyone to please read the book "Getting There: The Epic Struggle between Road and Rail in the American Century" by Stephen Goddard http://www.amazon.com/Getting-There-Struggle-American-Mathematics/dp/0226300439. The historic lessons are priceless. One of them is that almost 100 years ago, this nation was undergoing a culture war very much like the one today. It was between the trusts of corporate tycoons and that of progressives seeking to rein in their power. The nation was so divided that the government was gridlocked. Anarchists bombed Wall Street, derailed trains and assassinated tycoons and presidents.

 

And one of the great battles of that age was led by the Progressives to rein in the power of the monopolistic railroads and the trusts of powerful electric railways who controlled streetcars/interurbans, real estate, and electric utilities that were limited to populated areas along the rail corridors. So progressives sought publicly owned and funded roads (not privately owned and funded roads because they thought it would ultimately trade one monopolist for another) to weaken their power. Conservatives fought the progressives and sought to protect the rails from this attack from the left. You can resist change, but you can't stop it.

 

So today the public roads and the multitude of companies that feed at this public trough are the monopolies now. Ironically, they and their legislative and gubernatorial mouthpieces believe that building more lane-miles, even if it has to be debt-financed (so much for fiscal conservatism!), will continue to induce more driving and gas taxes to keep the feedback loop functioning just as it has since World War II. Protect the status quo! But it's not functioning because a new cultural change is happening. Many in the establishment, including the roadway monopolists, can't bring themselves to admit it. They try to lie to themselves and others because change is too painful to acknowledge. Or if they do acknowledge change, they have to blame someone for it.

 

True, time may cure this particular cultural war, but only until it is replaced by the next one. Why? Because change is the only constant. That's why I lean liberal especially on social issues. I prefer to ride waves than be surprised by denying their existence.

Sean Donovan lost...

 

That means COAST stooge/anti city and anti streetcar Jim Neil will be Hamilton County Sheriff

 

I'm sorry, I usually really like your posts, but this one drives me nuts. Why on earth do you consider Neil a COAST stooge?! He was NOT endorsed by COAST, has no ties to COAST, is a proud union cardholder and was strongly opposed to SB 5 which Donovan and coast supported. Where can you see anything that makes him anti-city?  Yes he say he's not a streetcar supporter, but that doesn't make him Anti-city and he has no influence on the streetcar anyway.

 

Declaring any democrat who doesn't support the streetcar anti-city & a COAST Stooge is pretty ridiculous. I'm not saying I like Neil, but that he's not some COAST stooge as they wouldn't even endorse him and he was a strong opponent to SB5 which coast loved.