Classic. You'll know it when you see it.

 

 

Where do mayoral candidates stand on the streetcar?

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/interactive/article/20130804/NEWS0106/130802008/Where-do-mayoral-candidates-stand-streetcar-

Well at least Sandra speak the TRUTH!

Well at least Sandra speak the TRUTH!

and she's currently polling better than tomato smoking Berns.

The Enquirer reported today that Messer donated to Cranley's campaign, and that they say they are also planning on donating to Qualls'.  What's up with this?

It's just businesses buying face time

^I imaging Messer and Prus donated to Cranley so that they have a little more negotiating power with Cranley if he is elected.

 

Also, if they donated to Qualls, that would appear to some as being a "reward" for pursuing the streetcar project and awarding them the project.

Does anyone know how much the city has to pay Messer if we back out of the contract? Is there an exit clause by the city? There is no way we can sign a contract with them, and then get out of it without paying them a significant amount of money. Does anyone have a figure and a source they can cite?

Economic development reaches $81.4 mil along the streetcar route thus far

http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/two-projects-announced-today-total-81-4m-investment-along-phase-one-route/

 

 

approximately 33,000 people visited Washington Park over the past two nights to enjoy LumenoCity. Many of those guests were looking for ways to get around on the crowded streets afterward, and were yearning for future streetcar service.

 

Sweet

Everyone needs to realize the streetcar would very likely have been shutdown for lumenocity. Just like it will be shut down for Oktoberfest & Taste.

^ Who says?

Large festivals and major events are when higher-level transit like streetcars and rapid transit can shine. If anything, they allow these festivals and events to be larger or even held simultaneously. If it wasn't for Cleveland's rail system, there's no way we could have 250,000-500,000 people downtown for St. Patrick's Day. Or have a Browns game and sold-out Indians playoff games at the same time with manageable traffic troubles. Or major festivals like Ingenuity or the Tall Ships. And when the HealthLine bus rapid transit was planned for Euclid Avenue (the city's major parade route), the question was raised on where would we hold parades? They were moved to Superior Avenue with little negative impact.

Did anyone go back stage? The entire area was shut down. This event wasn't so big back there that there is a small chance the streetcar would continue to operate, but we need to realize, just like in Portland, for parades and festivals the line gets shut down. It happens. Obviously on Opening day the streetcar will very likely be shut down from 8am until the parade ends. Portland does this as well for big parades. I suppose, with some very diligent planning they could keep the streetcar open for Oktoberfest or Taste but it will be pretty nuts and would take lots of fencing, and security to make it work.  As an urban circulator it's definitely going to shut down sometimes. But be open the vast majority of the year.

^Agreed.  While I was at Lumenocity, I kept thinking about how there is no way the streetcar could operate during large events that either use or spill on to city streets. 

 

It also got me thinking about how, from Washington Park, every point along the route is at most a 15 minute walk.  Given wait times, slow speeds, and stops, I can't see why any able bodied person would choose to use the streetcar in the middle portion of the route instead of walking.  Going from The Banks to Findlay Market makes sense, as that is quite a hike, but it's only from pole to pole that I  would consider a far enough distance to use transit.  I really don't see myself using phase 1 of the streetcar much.  In my opinion, the real benefit will come with future expansions of the system.

I don't know... would you walk from 12/Main to either Findlay Market or The Banks? Sure... but if the streetcar will make it easier to travel with groceries or after having a few drinks with dinner or at a Reds game, it certainly makes more sense. It's those types of trips that will be more easily facilitated with the streetcar.

approximately 33,000 people visited Washington Park over the past two nights to enjoy LumenoCity. Many of those guests were looking for ways to get around on the crowded streets afterward, and were yearning for future streetcar service.

 

Sweet

 

"Why in the world would you spend 10s of millions of dollars on a park? It just doesn't make any financial sense. We need to stop the insanity. First its the streetcar, then the atrium, now Washington park. These people now on council just don't have any business experience. We need to remember this and vote more conservatives on council next year. This is outrageous"

 

-Christopher Smitherman approximately 1+ years ago paraphrased

 

Now the smitheman pitch on 700wlw for cranky cranley  conveniently leaves out Washington park. He hasnt mentioned it in months

^^^ it is sad when members of City Council are openly against improving parks and are upset when these types of things are success', not to mention dragging your city through the mud at each and every turn.

 

You can be conservative and still promote a good quality of life in which a solid park system and transit network is a part of life.

 

things like the streetcar and Washington park are in direct opposition to people like Smitherman.  the more successful the city is, the less power he has.

Everyone needs to realize the streetcar would very likely have been shutdown for lumenocity. Just like it will be shut down for Oktoberfest & Taste.

 

I find this kind of uninformed speculation hilarious.

Um, the streetcars only come along every 10 minutes or so.  Not a big deal to have a police officer, who would already be working the festival anyway, make sure everyone gets out of the way. 

 

As for the opening day parade, just move it to Vine St. 

^Or decorate the streetcar and run it through the parade like a float.  It has a driver after all.  It would probably even be full because it would be fun to ride through like you're in the parade.

Here's the way other cities handle it, check this out.  The storyline..."service change effective Aug 16 2013...special streetcar service will be added" (to handle the large crowds expected at the Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto.)

 

http://www.ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/Service_changes/aug521.jsp

In a large noisy crowd, probably nobody would hear the quiet electric streetcar coming. It would likely be a bloodbath.

This conversation is ridiculous. You know I've noticed the streets get really congested with traffic and pedestrians during reds games, maybe we should close it then too? How about bengals games. I've also noticed there is a lot more traffic in the morning between 7-9 and the afternoon around 5, so maybe it should stop running then to. I mean come on, it is a people mover not a people avoider. These are the times it will be most valuable.

In a large noisy crowd, probably nobody would hear the quiet electric streetcar coming. It would likely be a bloodbath.

 

Please get out and visit more parts of the USA and the world before making posts like this. In particular, visit areas where streetcars/trams operate in other crowded, urban settings. Then report back.

^I think he was being facetious.

^I think he was being facetious.

 

I sure hope so!

 

EDIT: please use emoticons so that those of us who can't hear your tone of voice over the Internet can read it instead (ie: ;) ) Thanks!

I thought it was pretty obvious without an emoticon.

I thought it was pretty obvious without an emoticon.

 

At least two people here did not agree. You don't write for yourself to understand. You write for your audience to understand.

The construction trailer arrived today.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Cincy4Progress?ref=stream&hc_location=stream

8-|

The construction trailer arrived today.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Cincy4Progress?ref=stream&hc_location=stream

 

I was riding my bike past this last night and thought, "I wonder if that's related to the streetcar?"  Now I know!  Exciting to see!

In my younger days I spent a lot of time up in Toronto.  I hung out with locals, rode streetcars--first the PCC's, later the CLRV's---got to know people.  They have had at least 100+ years to address the whole broad issue of streetcars, crowds, public safety etc.  Their approach to managing crowds is to assign extra streetcars into the crowd to help disperse the crowd.  The best example is the 70 year tradition of hockey fans outside Maple Leaf Gardens celebrating a Leaf's victory on Carleton St.--one of their busiest streetcar lines.  Basically it's a thing of public education and understanding. Streetcars have been part of the local culture for over 100 years.  The locals just understand they are not supposed to walk along or stand on streetcar tracks.  Cyclists understand they have to cross tracks at a right angle, not parallel.

 

By far the most problematic issue with streetcars and public safety...Toronto tracks are in the middle of the street, mixed traffic.  When a streetcar stops and opens his doors autos must stop.  Its no different from a school bus and its the law.  Locals seem to know this, my sense is the problem is with tourists who assume that traffic laws are the same everywhere in North America.  It's a public education thing, and yes I expect Cincinnati will need to do some public education.  I don't live in the Cincinnati metro area, so can somebody clarify for me, your system will have curbside tracks, am I right?  This avoids the huge problem here: check out this website:

 

http://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/Safety_and_Security/Streetcar_Watch.jsp

Everyone needs to realize the streetcar would very likely have been shutdown for lumenocity. Just like it will be shut down for Oktoberfest & Taste.

 

I find this kind of uninformed speculation hilarious.

 

spoke to a person highly invovled in the management of the streetcar project today.  he confirmed it's very likely that there will be times when the line is shutdown briefly for parades.  said it may be possible to move some of the parades and events and put up barricades to allow it to cut through the larger weekend festivals, but that "the likelihood of moving the findlay market opening day parade away from findlay market is 0".

 

have any of you been to the findlay market parade where it actually sets up?  starting at 9AM they have nearly 4 thousand people and nearly 200 floats and vehicles on race, elm & henry. I'll place a friendly wager that at the first opening day the streetcar is shutdown from 9AM to 2PM.  just like in portland on their rose festival grand floral parade.

 

News Release:

PORTLAND,Ore.- The Portland Bureau of Transportation advises the traveling public that Portland Streetcar service will be interrupted on Saturday, June 8, 2013 for the Rose Festival Grand Floral Parade from 7 a.m. until the parade ends at about 1:30 p.m.   

 

Both  the NS and CL Lines will be shutdown with the following exception: streetcars will continue to run on the NS Line from 3rd & Harrison to SW Lowell & Bond during the parade. Service will resume on both the NS and CL Lines as soon as possible after the end of the parade, approximately 1:30 to 2 pm.  Enjoy  the parade.

 

From 10 to 11 p.m. there will be a second service interruption on both lines as Burnside will be shut down for a special event. Thank you for your patience.

OK, some of you guys talk about parades.  In my posts above I take the position that the Canucks teach us that streetcars and crowds go together as naturally as beer and hockey. But parades....yea that's a whole different problematic thing.

 

It's the maximum height allowed on a float...and not only that, the maximum allowable height of anything any performer might be doing on top of a float...(ie twirling batons, waving flags)... High voltage overhead power lines and parades are not exactly natural allies.  I'm in Dayton and most municipalities have a max height restriction on anything that enters our territory, great but think about how to enforce...I've heard all kinds of urban legends about things that have gotten tangled up in our overhead trolleybus power lines.

 

As far back as I can remember, if some organization has taken out a parade permit our Dayton RTA simply assigns diesels to the trolleybus route for that day.  Not really much of an issue because they haven't run the trolleybuses on weekends/holidays for years.  I think when a bus route is running all diesel they can just shut off the power on the total route so there's really no issue.  I was in a parade a few years ago on West Third Street, riding on top of a high profile truck, my damn head was like 2 feet below the 600 volt DC power lines.  I was sure the power was off but didn't really want to shake hands with the wires to check it out :)  As I understand your streetcar, it's a single overhead wire system, at the side of the street near the curb.  That's all well and good as it resolves the safety issues I've seen with streetcars and trolleys.

^ Sounds like you're stretching to look for a problem.  The wires for streetcars are no lower than most traffic signals, which also limit the height of floats.  Nor are they all that much lower than the general purpose secondary distribution wires serving buildings.  18 feet is typical for trolley wire, 17 feet is the minimum to the bottom of traffic signals in Cincinnati (I think it's usually more like 15 or 16 feet in other places).  And since when are the big flag wavers and baton twirlers on top of floats?  They're the ones marching out in front on the street.

Dayton must have some epic Macy's Thanksgiving day parade sized floats. We sure don't! :P

Nope, your opening day thing is about the biggest I know of in SW Ohio.  OK guys, point well taken.  For some reason I was envisioning the power lines running below the signals, but I was just driving out on state route 48 and noticed it looks like they try and keep everything more/less equal height. 

 

Actually, at this point I'm still far more concerned that Cranley might get in and cancel your project than I am about the possibility of someone getting toasted by a streetcar.  Which brings to mind an interesting parallel.  Back around 1990 we got a rogue RTA director up here who went on a crusade to junk our entire trolleybus system just AFTER we had spent gobs of federal bucks to replace the infrastructure.  Anyway, we damn near threw the baby out with the bathwater when, finally, a few people in the know accurately accounted for and totaled all cancellation costs, paybacks etc.  Once they went public with the true costs of junking the trolleys it became a no brainer...the Board voted to buy new trolleys and spend money on extensions.  If Cranley gets in I can visualize sunk costs being a huge issue in your favor.  Spending millions of taxpayer bucks and having absolutely nothing to show for it doesn't look good on any politician's resume.

Chabot makes stop in Evendale for town hall

 

...

 

His discussion looked at topics as well, including Cincinnati’s streetcar project. Although Congress is not involved, Chabot said that if he could, he would defund the streetcar and doesn’t support federal stimulus funds for it, but considers money for that better used for “legitimate” projects such as roads and interstates.

 

“It’s not free money from Washington,” he said, “The streetcar is a waste of money ... I don’t think people will be riding the streetcar regularly.”

 

...

So when he tried to ban funding for the streetcar in the transportation bill, it didn't go through? He is no transportation expert.

I don't see how any one person can cancel the streetcar--it would take a council vote doing so, I feel. 

I don't see how any one person can cancel the streetcar--it would take a council vote doing so, I feel. 

 

What about a pocket veto for funding some critical unforeseen something or other?

^Cincinnati would have to return the federal grants if a minimum service level fails to be maintained.  So Cranley can't kill the streetcar without raising taxes to both pay off the federal grant and repay the city's bonds. 

I don't see how any one person can cancel the streetcar--it would take a council vote doing so, I feel. 

 

What about a pocket veto for funding some critical unforeseen something or other?

 

At this point it's fairly safe that the first phase will be built.  That being said, the streetcar will be alright in phase 1, but truly has always been intended to go to UC and the hospitals.  That is where you see the best potential. Cranley can singlehandedly prevent council from ever studying or funding phase 2.  Mayor's in Cincinnati do have that power. could be a 9-0 vote and the mayor is able to hold it off the calendar indefinitely (he must place every item on the calendar before the term is up however).  Now, if Cranley wins and 1 supporter... just ONE loses and is replaced by a non supporter than the project could be killed at a huge taxpayer expense, but one Cranley seems to be convinced will be worth it.  we cancelled a subway that was half done... we can cancel a half done streetcar.

 

 

Back to progress.  Has anyone noticed the amount of work Cincinnati bell is doing on 12th! looks like it has been closed almost every day this week for utility work.

^Cincinnati would have to return the federal grants if a minimum service level fails to be maintained.  So Cranley can't kill the streetcar without raising taxes to both pay off the federal grant and repay the city's bonds.

 

Not true-  He could pay back the federal grants without raising taxes.  He would just have to kill many other capital projects (new westside police station, recreation and park renovations, riverfront park expansion, and cut street paving).  He wouldn't HAVE to raise taxes. But he would have to kill some important projects. 

>we cancelled a subway that was half done

 

The subway was never explicitly "cancelled".  Rather, the Rapid Transit Commission was voted by council ordinance out of existence.  This was only possible because of the charter reforms, which shrunk Cincinnati City Council from 32 elected by (machine controlled) wards to 9 members elected at large.  During the first election under the new charter, a new council with 6 Charterites and only 3 reps from the old machine meant they were able to destroy the vestiges of the machine in City Hall.  They dissolved nearly every city department in order to fire all of the machine appointees, then reestablished every city department and staffed them with their people. 

 

The Rapid Transit Commission in no way had to answer to the machine (it was legally as separate as the Park Board or School Board, and comprised of machine appointees), but because Central Parkway was still under construction, Seasongood and the Charterites had to wait until the parkway was finished and the last dollar of the 1916 subway bond issue was spent.  Then they voted the commission out of existence, and so ended the project. Oh, and Seasongood spread the false rumor that streetcars could not operate in the existing tunnel and suggested instead a totally different streetcar subway plan.  When a UC student researching the subway project contacted Seasongood in the 1960s, he avoided the whole matter of the subway, saying "he couldn't recall the details". 

 

Chabots plea "help me kill the streetcar project"

 

It never stops with these guys.

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130808/NEWS01/308080106

Chabots plea "help me kill the streetcar project"

 

It never stops with these guys.

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130808/NEWS01/308080106

 

Interesting how suburbanites think they should have the power to veto a project in the City of Cincinnati, even though they don't live there.

 

>we cancelled a subway that was half done

 

The subway was never explicitly "cancelled".  Rather, the Rapid Transit Commission was voted by council ordinance out of existence.  This was only possible because of the charter reforms, which shrunk Cincinnati City Council from 32 elected by (machine controlled) wards to 9 members elected at large.  During the first election under the new charter, a new council with 6 Charterites and only 3 reps from the old machine meant they were able to destroy the vestiges of the machine in City Hall.  They dissolved nearly every city department in order to fire all of the machine appointees, then reestablished every city department and staffed them with their people. 

 

The Rapid Transit Commission in no way had to answer to the machine (it was legally as separate as the Park Board or School Board, and comprised of machine appointees), but because Central Parkway was still under construction, Seasongood and the Charterites had to wait until the parkway was finished and the last dollar of the 1916 subway bond issue was spent.  Then they voted the commission out of existence, and so ended the project. Oh, and Seasongood spread the false rumor that streetcars could not operate in the existing tunnel and suggested instead a totally different streetcar subway plan.  When a UC student researching the subway project contacted Seasongood in the 1960s, he avoided the whole matter of the subway, saying "he couldn't recall the details". 

 

 

It never ceases to amaze me how this one decision by a group of city leaders changed our city forever from one that would have had a subway system to one that will NEVER have a subway system.  That was quite a powerful moment in Cincinnati history and scary to think that it could happen again if we let the wrong people get into office.

How will streetcar effect traffic?  Naturally they go running to COAST for a comment to "balance" the article. The same COAST that implied the project is "Worse than 9/11"

 

 

http://m.fox19.com/autojuice?targetUrl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fox19.com%2fstory%2f23089611%2fexclusive-how-will-the-cincinnati-streetcar-affect-traffic

How will streetcar effect traffic?  Naturally they go running to COAST for a comment to "balance" the article. The same COAST that implied the project is "Worse than 9/11"

 

 

http://m.fox19.com/autojuice?targetUrl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fox19.com%2fstory%2f23089611%2fexclusive-how-will-the-cincinnati-streetcar-affect-traffic

 

I like the absurdity of COAST's main criticism that the streetcar is "so poorly thought out." As if over the course of the past decade no one considered the fact that it will run on the streets in traffic.