A tunnel?? Why would you even suggest something that's not needed? Besides, it was studied for the light-rail line 15 years ago and hasn't been brought up since with good reason. Can we move on from that?

 

Because of expansion opportunity (true light rail). The current plan is more designed to have a circulator in Uptown and a circulator in Downtown and not really about connecting the two. Rail up Vine Street is sort of like inefficient (in cost/benefit and riding time) junk rail, with little development opportunity along its length.

It looks like the Elm St. entrance to the Washington Park garage will open soon. They were putting in some temporary asphalt today and the cobblestone in that area is complete. I really like the look of the stones in between the tracks. Also, it's been 19 business days since the first rail went in and continues to about 200 feet from Liberty St. with concrete pours now north of 14th St. Trench digging is now underway north of Liberty St. Think rail will reach Findlay Market come December 1 (14 business days)? I seem to recall John Deatrick saying rail would reach Henry St. by end of year.

Because of expansion opportunity (true light rail). The current plan is more designed to have a circulator in Uptown and a circulator in Downtown and not really about connecting the two. Rail up Vine Street is sort of like inefficient (in cost/benefit and riding time) junk rail, with little development opportunity along its length.

 

Streetcar can and do operate on dedicated track and be extended outward as far as any light-rail line. For example, the 14-mile Portland streetcar system has been considered for an extension via a former freight rail corridor 6 miles south to Lake Oswego.

 

I don't understand how rail up Vine Street is inefficient. The time saving benefits of a tunnel do not appear to justify the cost of $125 million (in 1999 dollars). It's not going to happen.

^Christ Hospital can't be accessed without a tunnel.  Christ Hospital has a lot of money. 

From Day 1 I think it should have always included Uptown.

 

This was Qualls's position, and in the end it created delays and opened the door to more of the ensuing insanity that may not have happened otherwise.

 

I remember the article. Everyone was attacking it when you posted it, assuming it was anti-Cincinnati streetcar. I pointed out that it actually would support the Cincinnati streetcar.

 

Personally, I am leaning toward the idea that the Uptown link should be done via a tunnel. I know it sounds politically unpalatable (especially after Tuesday), and it might be, but I think it's worth at least studying. And assuming the cost is less than maybe $500m, there should be a full push by supporters, as much media-whoring as humanly possible, and a ballot referendum to secure funding and make it happen. Maybe do like KC did and make a special tax district in Downtown and Uptown to pay for it. Try to get UC and the hospitals to publicly back the idea.

 

Not an engineer so not sure about a Tunnel. But you are correct about getting UC, the pill hill crowd into this. I think the mistake city leaders made

was (and some know the story better than I) hey we can only get this much money so we only do Downtown-OTR. Hold off for more money.

The other mistake is the economic development along the route pitch. Yeah some of that will happen but you have to have butts in those

seats, getting on and off. I also think the average joe bystander or voter looks at a larger route uptown as making more sense.

Anyway I hope it happens so I can ride the car to UC for football games some day, as I am moving to 8th Street in 2 - 3 weeks.....

at least I can walk to PBS as UC is playing all home there next season.

Because of expansion opportunity (true light rail). The current plan is more designed to have a circulator in Uptown and a circulator in Downtown and not really about connecting the two. Rail up Vine Street is sort of like inefficient (in cost/benefit and riding time) junk rail, with little development opportunity along its length.

 

Streetcar can and do operate on dedicated track and be extended outward as far as any light-rail line. For example, the 14-mile Portland streetcar system has been considered for an extension via a former freight rail corridor 6 miles south to Lake Oswego.

 

I don't understand how rail up Vine Street is inefficient. The time saving benefits of a tunnel do not appear to justify the cost of $125 million (in 1999 dollars). It's not going to happen.

 

I'm not of the opinion that a streetcar traveling in mixed traffic is no better than a bus, however when we are talking about traveling long distances, they start to converge. There isn't much development opportunity on Vine Street, so I would prefer we actually plan for the distant future when we build an Uptown connection, which means building a key piece of a fully grade-separated light rail network. A Downtown-Uptown tunnel would be the backbone of a regional LRT network. Riding on Vine Street when taking a train from Mason to NKY would be laughable.

City, contractors consider around-the-clock streetcar work: EXCLUSIVE

Chris Wetterich - Staff reporter - Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The city of Cincinnati and the contractor building the streetcar are considering whether to work on the project 24 hours a day for a two- to four-day period in the coming weeks because of potential disruptions as the project crosses Liberty Street and reaches Findlay Market.

 

In an interview, the project’s executive manager, John Deatrick, said the temporary ramp up is not being considered because of political reasons. Mayor-elect John Cranley opposes the project and has vowed to stop it.

 

“We’re stupid, but we’re not that stupid,” Deatrick joked. “Liberty is a major factor in east-west travel. Nothing’s been decided.”

 

Cont

City, contractors consider around-the-clock streetcar work: EXCLUSIVE

Chris Wetterich - Staff reporter - Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The city of Cincinnati and the contractor building the streetcar are considering whether to work on the project 24 hours a day for a two- to four-day period in the coming weeks because of potential disruptions as the project crosses Liberty Street and reaches Findlay Market.

 

In an interview, the project’s executive manager, John Deatrick, said the temporary ramp up is not being considered because of political reasons. Mayor-elect John Cranley opposes the project and has vowed to stop it.

 

“We’re stupid, but we’re not that stupid,” Deatrick joked. “Liberty is a major factor in east-west travel. Nothing’s been decided.”

 

Cont

 

Nati, I think some portions of Vine, even going up this hill, are good candidates for redevelopment. But not every section of a

route has to be developed to capacity.

Talk of a tunnel is extremely premature considering John Cranley and city council have vowed to stop the project

I have to share this with you and hopefully motivate Cincinnatians. I want Ohio to have more than major city with a rail transit system. I want Cincinnati to have a train too so that awesome scenes and benefits like those shown in the photo below can be enjoyed elsewhere. This is the Case Western Reserve University Spartans football team riding the Red Line about 18 miles to Cleveland Hopkins International Airport where they will fly to St. Louis to play the Washington University Bears. At the St. Louis end, the team can ride from its Airport on its MetroLink rail system directly to the Washington University campus (on the Blue Line). Can you imagine the football players and fans of UC or Xavier riding a streetcar or light-rail train to the airport, or even to play each other??

 

http://athletics.case.edu/sports/fball/2013-14/releases/201311059nso1e

 

Talk of a tunnel is extremely premature considering John Cranley and city council have vowed to stop the project

 

Then so is talking about Vine Street.

 

It's worse. Its irrelevant as it's not part of any active rail development plan.

 

Then we should be thinking further ahead.

 

Nati, I think some portions of Vine, even going up this hill, are good candidates for redevelopment. But not every section of a

route has to be developed to capacity.

 

Where are the stops on the hill planned?

Talk of a tunnel is extremely premature considering John Cranley and city council have vowed to stop the project

 

Then so is talking about Vine Street.

 

Absolutely correct.  There should only be one priority right now.  Doing everything we can to get the first phase completed. 

 

That means mailing politicians, drumming up support, getting businesses on board, getting key prominent local figures on board, and getting the message out. 

 

 

From the schizophrenic Fishwarp:

Cities turn to streetcars to spur economic development

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131108/NEWS/311080098/Cities-turn-streetcars-spur-economic-development

Possible streetcar cancellation spurs backlash

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131107/NEWS/311070114/Possible-streetcar-cancellation-spurs-backlash

It looks like the Elm St. entrance to the Washington Park garage will open soon. They were putting in some temporary asphalt today and the cobblestone in that area is complete. I really like the look of the stones in between the tracks. Also, it's been 19 business days since the first rail went in and continues to about 200 feet from Liberty St. with concrete pours now north of 14th St. Trench digging is now underway north of Liberty St. Think rail will reach Findlay Market come December 1 (14 business days)? I seem to recall John Deatrick saying rail would reach Henry St. by end of year.

 

The Elm Street entrance to the Washington Park Garage has re-opened. It looks like they're about 1/3 done re-installing the granite pavers. They are also pouring concrete around the tracks north of 14th Street now.

A tunnel?? Why would you even suggest something that's not needed? Besides, it was studied for the light-rail line 15 years ago and hasn't been brought up since with good reason. Can we move on from that?

 

Because of expansion opportunity (true light rail). The current plan is more designed to have a circulator in Uptown and a circulator in Downtown and not really about connecting the two. Rail up Vine Street is sort of like inefficient (in cost/benefit and riding time) junk rail, with little development opportunity along its length.

 

THIS!  I agree completely.  I think we need to focus on getting the streetcar downtown as an urban circulator.  Just finish what we've started, get the discussion rolling on regional rail, and in the mean time get a few more Metro*Plus routes running especially the one up Clifton/Ludlow/Hamilton.  Ultimately, I think a rail tunnel under Mt Auburn would be a great investment, but not a tunnel for our current streetcar.

 

I am 100% in support of the downtown circulator, but I have never been a big fan of the Vine St extension.  If I'm standing at the intersection of Vine and McMillan St and want to go to Government Square with my options being Metro*Plus, local buses, and the Streetcar...the streetcar would be my absolute last choice.  In addition, the room for economic development along the line is not that great.

 

That said, we need the downtown streetcar for economic development reasons in addition to getting people acclimated to riding transit.  It's inexplicable, but people just won't take a bus for their first transit experience, but after they ride a train they seem to start to "get it."  The streetcar is absolutely the first step we needed in developing a more robust system, but adding the Uptown leg to the first phase was foolish, though well intentioned, in my opinion.

Ultimately, I think a rail tunnel under Mt Auburn would be a great investment, but not a tunnel for our current streetcar.

 

The streetcar can use the tunnel along with future LRT. They aren't mutually exclusive, and it provides a DT/UT streetcar connection which has been planned and basically promised.

Guys,  we need to stop worrying about tunnels right now and need to focus on getting this project competed

 

John Cranley is meeting Dec 3 in DC with some department to try to reallocate the streetcar funds. We need to write, email, call, and organize our plan when council votes to stop construction. 

Guys,  we need to stop worrying about tunnels right now and need to focus on getting this project competed

 

John Cranley is meeting Dec 3 in DC with some department to try to reallocate the streetcar funds. We need to write, email, call, and organize our plan when council votes to stop construction. 

 

Do we know the exact person/group of people he is meeting with? It seems smart to contact them directly.

'streetcar debate is over'  john Cranley

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2013/11/08/john-cranley-streetcar-conversation-is-over/

Cranley better change his political affiliation then. Interesting to read him claim the "debate is over" soon after telling CityBeat that he would consider costs of cancellation before making a decision.

Do we know the exact person/group of people he is meeting with? It seems smart to contact them directly.

 

The name was mentioned previously. It is a bureaucrat, not an elected official. Thus it is important to get elected officials -- namely Senator Brown -- to contact Federal Transit Administrator Peter Rogoff to continue the project and urge that more federal funds be allocated to restore the project to Uptown.

Guys,  we need to stop worrying about tunnels right now and need to focus on getting this project competed

 

John Cranley is meeting Dec 3 in DC with some department to try to reallocate the streetcar funds. We need to write, email, call, and organize our plan when council votes to stop construction. 

 

Right. Stay focused on the immediate challenge.

Business Courier article sez Mann & Sittenfeld are the people to work on.

With the other 3 supporters on council that makes sense.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2013/11/dont-expect-cranley-to-break-his.html

Guys,  we need to stop worrying about tunnels right now and need to focus on getting this project competed

 

John Cranley is meeting Dec 3 in DC with some department to try to reallocate the streetcar funds. We need to write, email, call, and organize our plan when council votes to stop construction.

 

I agree with this. If the streetcar gets stopped now it will be a very cold day in July before it or any other rail project in Cincinnati gets reconstituted. I did my part today and emailed Senator Brown to see to it Cranley does not succeed in getting the Federal Grant Funds shifted to some other project. From day one we have been told they are for the streetcar and the streetcar only. Send Cranley back home with his hat in his hand and the message if he stops the streetcar at this point the Federal Grants disappear - ALL of them. I suggest others, particularly residents of Cincinnati email Senator Brown with the same message. If the Feds switch their position in midstream, they are just as bad as Cranley.

 

I keep thinking of all the people and businesses which have purchased property and invested along the streetcar route. If the plug is pulled out from under them now, I hope everyone who can afford to just pulls up stakes and leaves, saying Cincinnati we cannot trust you bozos.

Some people just do not seem to get it. To say we need to pressure the Feds to restore the funds for the uptown connector? Do you not get it? This is a do or die situation. The man has declared the streetcar is Dead! That means he intends to kill it and put it on the same scrap heap as the subway. Just what Cincinnati needs, the only city in the country with two failed major transit projects. That will go a long way to increase the City's desirability image.

 

Get off your duff and contact anyone you can think of, particularly at the Federal level, to stop this asinine decision. Make it totally a disasterous economic decision for Cranley to kill the streetcar. He will likely cause all sorts of problems in the future, particularly with operating budgets. but don't let him kill it and leave Cincinnati holding the bag when he decides to move on to other political asperations.

 

I don't live in the City, but I am pleading with you to stop this regressive decision.

 

 

kjbrill, thanks for writing to Senator Brown. I hope everyone that is reading this takes the time to do the same. I have provided links to his contact form and a sample message earlier in this thread.

I wrote to Sherrod yesterday. If any of you guys are on the Tweeter or the Facespace, you should implore all your friends to do so. I'll make it easy, just link them here:

http://www.brown.senate.gov/contact/

 

I can't find on first try an email contact for USDOT Secretary of Transportation, but here are USDOT phone #s:

Office of the Secretary: 202-366-4000

Assistant Secretary for Administation: 1 (202) 366-2332

I intend to call on Monday during business hours (8:30-5:30).

 

kjbrill is right, we should contact everyone we can.

 

Don't forget Sittenfeld and Mann.

Sittenfeld: [email protected]

Mann: [email protected]

Guys/Gals, Enquirer is now quoting John Cranley as stating "Streetcar conversation is over."  This is in response to the hundreds of emails he's already recieved regarding his plans for cancelling it. Its time to stop wishfully thinking he's going to listen to reason. He really is STUPID and STUBBORN enough to actually cancel this project. We either have to come together and figure out a way to play hardball with this pathetic little flea or the city will become the only place in the world where 2 major rail projects were cancelled after construction was started for stupid political reasons.  We've been fighting for this for years now and if we dont start taking drastic measures, our worst nightmares will come true. What are we going to do???

What are we going to do???

 

Again...

 

Write to Senator Sherrod Brown and/or Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx. Tell them that federal funding for the Streetcar must be used for the Streetcar and can not be used for other purposes.

 

Write to David Mann, Kevin Flynn, and PG Sittenfeld. Tell them it would be a huge waste of money to rip out what has already been built. Tell them why the streetcar is important to you, your friends, your family, and the city as a whole.

 

Focus on those things for now.

I don't understand Cranley. Didn't he learn anything from Kasich's rejection of the $400 million in high speed rail money? Kasich tried to reprogram the money for highways; the federal government took it back and gave it to other states which are delighted. Michigan and Illinois thank Ohio. Maybe USDOT will take back the federal dollars for the Cincinnati streetcar, as well they should, and give them to other cities: Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Atlanta, Tucson, Kenosha, Los Angeles, Ft. Lauderdale, Detroit, Kansas City, Washington DC and others would all be delighted to have the money.

Almost all of the negative comments I've been reading about the streetcar relate to the notion that it's too small to have any real benefit for the city at large.  If this comes to a referendum, I think the ONLY way it passes is if we, as streetcar supporters, can sell phase 1 of the streetcar as the beginning of a larger system.  Honestly, that is why I am a staunch supporter of the streetcar.  I'm not entirely sold on its usefulness as a stand alone line, and economic development is a hard concept to sell to the masses. 

 

We tried a big campaign for regional transit.  It failed. This is the foundation of a future much more far reaching mass transit system for the whole city and region.  Imagine taking the train downtown from Blue Ash, and then being able to use the streetcar to move through the urban core and beyond.  Light rail lines are the arteries and veins of the system, streetcars are the capillaries. Halting the streetcar = halting rail for a generation. The larger picture of stopping rail is how we were able to defeat issues 9 and 48, and I think it's our best shot for winning support this time around too.

 

*I would also add Kevin Flynn to the list of people to contact.  I know Mr. Flynn and he is a very smart and reasonable person.  For him, I think it really will come down to a decision about whether it is cheaper to keep going or scrap the project, which at least makes him more reasonable than the ideologue Cranley.  Murray is a lost cause, IMO.

Can someone explain how a referendum would work?  How do you get a referendum?  Would we have to wait until next November to vote on it?

Can someone explain how a referendum would work?  How do you get a referendum?  Would we have to wait until next November to vote on it?

 

Signatures are collected after council votes for something and that measure gets put on hold until the citizens vote in the next election.

 

Question is: do contracts continue in the meantime? If so, construction continues, making it even more obviously ridiculous to cancel by next November (or could there be an earlier special election?). If not, ongoing litigation will be a NIGHTMARE for the campaign trying to stop the streetcar, in my estimation (there will be a breach of contract if construction stops, even temporarily).

 

Cranley told Chris Wetterich he would not pursue an emergency clause for streetcar cancellation, which means a referendum would be inevitable. Either he lied to the reporter, or the disaster scenario (disaster for Cranley) I just laid out will come to fruition (in the event council votes to cancel the project). Source

 

I asked Cranley on Wednesday whether he would try to kill the streetcar using an emergency ordinance, which would prevent another referendum. He probably made the first unforced error of his mayoralty when he said no, that he respects the right to referendum.

Tweeter and Facespace this one, too, from Cranley's spokesman:

 

Cranley’s reaction to those emails: “The conversation about the streetcar is over.”

https://twitter.com/JayKincaid_/status/399016502755475456

 

And here he is talking $hit about streetcar supporters and the Urbanophile's blog (who goes by arenn on this site). Petty and unprofessional:

 

Cinti election nutshell - streetcar sups think post on 168,164 most viewed site in US is hurting city rep.http://bit.ly/1bee63j  #inabubble

Aaaaand, with the graphic posted above, we're already starting to see thug-like behavior from Cranley's administration. A mayor should not mock his constituents. Streetcar supporters have been fighting for this project for over five years because they believe it is a tool that will greatly improve their neighborhood and the city as a whole. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not being pushed by property developers and real estate agents... it's being pushed by people who want a more livable, walkable, sustainable city. Why not let the streetcar supporters have a seat at a table? Telling them to "let it go" is basically like saying, "Go ahead, move out of Cincinnati, we don't want you here anyway."

Heard this from a voter:

 

"They should tear up the rails and give the money back to help pay off the national debt."

 

I still think that some of the forumers underestimate the opposition to the streetcar. This isn't just a group of nutcases that oppose it; the streetcar has widespread opposition outside of the core.

 

 

Had this conversation with a different voter:

 

"For whom are you voting for Mayor of Cincinnati?"

"Qualls. I like that she supports the streetcar. The other woman wants to stop the streetcar."

Let it go John Cranley, streetcars gonna happen.

I am what I think a quiet ambassaror for Cincy...I have travelled far and wide and continually have contact outside the city.  If the streetcar does not happen I fear I might become a vocal mouth-piece of what our local media and old time conservatives tell the populace each day...hopefully the mayor-elect understands that the pioneers that took chances, invested money, and ultimately believed with a greater vision that this city could finally reach its potential will dissipate. 

 

I have never been a fan of the blogger, but this seems appropriate and t-shirts will be printed: "Cincinnati, the city of self-sabotage".

 

At the very least mayor-elect needs to be exposed on a national level.

 

 

 

Rant over.

So any mayor could just come in and cancel a project like the Waldvogel Viaduct after it is started?

I guess you could expose Cranley at the national level for the hack that he is, but I think it would accomplish the same thing as any national media attention on the streetcar issue:

 

Nothing.

 

Cincinnati has a lot of potential, but I think it's played at the bottom of its game for so many decades that the rest of the universe expects nothing from it, and therefore negative press doesn't catch anyone's interest. The burst of activity in OTR, now that's something that got national media attention. Cincinnati has to climb up the glory ladder one painful rung at a time.

 

I am what I think a quiet ambassaror for Cincy...I have travelled far and wide and continually have contact outside the city.  If the streetcar does not happen I fear I might become a vocal mouth-piece of what our local media and old time conservatives tell the populice each day...hopefully the mayor-elect understands that the pioneers that took chances, invested money, and ultimately believed with a greater vision that this city could finally reach its potential will dissapate. 

 

I have never been a fan of the blogger, but this seems appropriate and t-shirts will be printed: "Cincinnati, the city of self-sabotage".

 

At the very least mayor-elect needs to be exposed on a national level.

 

Rant over.

 

LoCANTiville.  Thanks, King Cranley.

Can someone explain how a referendum would work?  How do you get a referendum?  Would we have to wait until next November to vote on it?

 

Signatures are collected after council votes for something and that measure gets put on hold until the citizens vote in the next election.

 

Question is: do contracts continue in the meantime? If so, construction continues, making it even more obviously ridiculous to cancel by next November (or could there be an earlier special election?). If not, ongoing litigation will be a NIGHTMARE for the campaign trying to stop the streetcar, in my estimation (there will be a breach of contract if construction stops, even temporarily).

 

Cranley told Chris Wetterich he would not pursue an emergency clause for streetcar cancellation, which means a referendum would be inevitable. Either he lied to the reporter, or the disaster scenario (disaster for Cranley) I just laid out will come to fruition (in the event council votes to cancel the project). Source

 

I asked Cranley on Wednesday whether he would try to kill the streetcar using an emergency ordinance, which would prevent another referendum. He probably made the first unforced error of his mayoralty when he said no, that he respects the right to referendum.

 

Cranley's probably HOPING for a streetcar referendum because he's confident it would fail.  Sadly, he may be right.  IMO we won the other two referenda mainly because of their ridiculous overreach which would've banned all forms of rail transit.  Even The Enquirer, which has proven to be no friend of the streetcar, didn't endorse them, but it would probably endorse a narrow referendum that stops only the streetcar.  Be careful what you wish for...

Got a suspicious feeling Cranley will ask pg or mann to be his vm on the condition of a no vote against the streetcar

Note who is promoting streetcars. And who is Cranley going to meet with in DC?

 

"@FTA_DOT: Win. #Streetcars spur significant economic development, bring customers to shops, create jobs. http://t.co/ScWiyhJCwH @USATODAY @APTA_info"

I think I agree that mayor-elect is hoping for a referendum, which he thinks would absolve him of any responsibility for canceling.  I know this is hard to plan quietly but as opponents we should not be so public with next steps.  I think the goal should be to convince him not to cancel first.  Again it seems ridiculous that this would need another vote, but that is what happens when you have a mayor that unilaterally calls his race a vote on the streetcar.  As if there were no other issues to consider and the streetcar had not already been decided.

I'm not worried about them. Besides, there's a big difference between what we say in here and what is actually planned and executed out there.

 

A think a referendum is a great idea -- if properly designed. See Los Angeles or Kansas City for examples.

Got a suspicious feeling Cranley will ask pg or mann to be his vm on the condition of a no vote against the streetcar

This sounds too plausible not to be true. My bet is he would choose one of them, regardless, though.