^All of that seems accurate. Also, I believe that council must read any given ordinance at three separate council meetings before actually voting on it unless they pass it as an emergency in which I believe it only has to be read in committee before a full council vote. Is that correct charter scholars?

While this is all good news, I really hope that another member of council comes over to the light side of the force, prior to December 2, or that Cranley decides not to fight.  I don't want this city to have to go through another year of bickering about the streetcar. 

While this is all good news, I really hope that another member of council comes over to the light side of the force, prior to December 2, or that Cranley decides not to fight.  I don't want this city to have to go through another year of bickering about the streetcar. 

 

Both Winburn and Flynn have said they want to look more closely at the numbers, although they both also said they think construction should pause. I doubt Monday's meeting is going to result in any cancellation ordinance, but it might include an ordinance to pause and independently review the project. Hopefully the four supporters on council can convince one more person that a pause is a de facto cancellation, and we can get an independent contractor to review the project while it continues.

 

I would think that even in the event a "pause and review" ordinance gets passed, we would start gathering signatures for a referendum? It would seemingly just have to have language that forces the city to honor all existing streetcar contracts, and preventing them from passing any legislation that hampers construction in any way. Something broad like that would be nice, so even in the event Cranley parks his car in the way of a delivery truck, the city opens itself up to lawsuit.

I would think that even in the event a "pause and review" ordinance gets passed, we would start gathering signatures for a referendum? It would seemingly just have to have language that forces the city to honor all existing streetcar contracts, and preventing them from passing any legislation that hampers construction in any way. Something broad like that would be nice, so even in the event Cranley parks his car in the way of a delivery truck, the city opens itself up to lawsuit.

 

Yes, signatures would be collected against a "pause" ordinance. I think "the language" is only chosen for initiatives (in a referendum, the language is the language of the ordinance council passed). But it might not be a bad idea to collect signatures for an initiative simultaneously with the referendum. Easier to ask people to sign two things once than ask them to sign one thing twice. If we go that route, we need a lawyer working on the language pronto.

Kevin flynn interview about the Streetcar will be on at 6 on local 12

^All of that seems accurate. Also, I believe that council must read any given ordinance at three separate council meetings before actually voting on it unless they pass it as an emergency in which I believe it only has to be read in committee before a full council vote. Is that correct charter scholars?

 

Correct. Any ordinance to be voted upon must have "three readings." Usually two in committee and one at the council meeting where it is voted upon. They can suspend the rule that states they need three readings (why you often hear "on the question of suspension" when voting on items in council) but this would still require, I believe, six votes to suspend that rule.

So how they officially vote on canceling the Streetcar on Dec 2?  I assume a reading takes a day. Unless they go through two generic readings as fast as possible

If they can't cancel the streetcar on December 2 (now that PG is with us), then the cost savings of cancelling the streetcar needs to be revised to show that the costs incurred in December cannot be avoided.  This brings the costs of completion very close to the cost of cancellation. 

Taft's Ale House to open on streetcar line: Urban Ohio: Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine Projects

Kevin Flynn in studio at WLW at noon with the news channels on hand to record his statements. In a nutshell, he stated he had just finished a meeting with John Deatrick and based on the information he has in hand he will vote to cancel the project on Monday.

Flynn will vote to cancel the Streetcar.

 

It's referendum time guys.  Get everyone ready and prepared to collect signatures

 

The language needs to be crystal clear on the initiative.

 

Cranley is going to try to shut down construction somehow while we wait to vote in November.  We can't let that happen

He said he would vote to cancel, not to pause?  Crud. 

The citizens got what they wanted. I guess they like torching 100+ million and NOTHING to show for it but debt. NOTHING to off set it.

Kevin Flynn will be the new chair of rules...On the same day he said he will cancel the streetcar

 

Mann is VM, votes to cancel streetcar

 

PG supports fiscal responsibility...Gets nothing

 

See the pattern

 

 

The citizens got what they wanted. I guess they like torching 100+ million and NOTHING to show for it but debt. NOTHING to off set it.

 

Not yet.  This isn't over, no matter how badly some want it to be.  There are still steps that can be taken.

2011 Kevin Flynn:

 

“I support the development of the streetcar as an economic development tool and job creator. All of the studies show, and all of the cities which have invested in streetcars have demonstrated, economic benefits for the city many times greater than the investment. We cannot continue to make cuts in services and play accounting tricks in order to balance our budget. In order to sustain our city in the long-term, we need to grow our city and invest in the infrastructure that will encourage private investment.

“I support the current plan as a first phase of a larger system that will connect our uptown hospital/university district with our downtown entertainment/Central Business District. I would like to see the city pay for construction with Tax Increment Financing revenues generated by increased property values along the streetcar route.”

 

http://citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-2435-candidates_on_the_planned_streetcar_system.html

So this is what we are looking at:

 

Monday, Dec 2, 2013: John Cranley will bring the streetcar up for a vote.

 

-Winburn

-Smitherman

-Murray

-Flynn

-Mann

 

will vote to cancel

 

-PG

-Seelbach

-Simpson

-Young

 

will vote to not cancel

 

The motion will go into effect 30 days from Dec 2.

 

In the meantime, construction will continue on the streetcar.  Supporters will have 30 days to draft a petition, collect 8700+ signatures, & put it on the november ballot.  If they successfully do that, construction continues until November barring a sneaky Cranley/Smitherman legislative move

Fake: After the lambasting that circus act Cunningham laid on PG yesterday, I wonder if he will invite Flip-flopping Flynn on to do the same?

 

And wasn't Winburn wavering?

Streetcar team. I no longer live in the city but would like to help in anyway I can. Please message me directly with thoughts.

Fake: After the lambasting that circus act Cunningham laid on PG yesterday, I wonder if he will invite Flip-flopping Flynn on to do the same?

 

And wasn't Winburn wavering?

 

Winburn was just being winburn.  Someone called his office and his secretary said he is not changing his vote on the streetcar.

 

John Schneider probably has better info about what's going on.  Hopefully he can update us.  Everyone get ready

 

 

I only saw it in passing, but was that Flynn at Cranley's side today at the press conference? Those two are going to be thick as thieves for the next 4 years. Cranley is going to feed him scraps and he'll likely vote however Cranley wants. They're both UC College of Law guys from back in the day, we probably should have seen this coming.

 

It's such a clear-cut sellout, too. The 2011 quote above makes that painfully obvious - somehow the ROI made sense then, but doesn't now. PG's flip on the issue was based on actual data, whereas Flynn's flip is exactly contrary to new data.

Flynn was obviously just trying to make himself look good when he said he would look at the numbers and weigh the decision.  There is no way he could meet with Dietrick and go over the numbers and plan and come away with the opinion that it's in the city's best interest to cancel the streetcar if he went into the meeting with anything close to an open mind.

 

I expect Winburn to do the same.  It's for show.

 

Did the feds say they would remove funding if a delay occurs?  If so, then even a delay will kill the project because I can't see it being a good investment without the fed funding.

2011 Kevin Flynn:

 

“I support the development of the streetcar as an economic development tool and job creator. All of the studies show, and all of the cities which have invested in streetcars have demonstrated, economic benefits for the city many times greater than the investment. We cannot continue to make cuts in services and play accounting tricks in order to balance our budget. In order to sustain our city in the long-term, we need to grow our city and invest in the infrastructure that will encourage private investment.

“I support the current plan as a first phase of a larger system that will connect our uptown hospital/university district with our downtown entertainment/Central Business District. I would like to see the city pay for construction with Tax Increment Financing revenues generated by increased property values along the streetcar route.”

 

http://citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-2435-candidates_on_the_planned_streetcar_system.html

 

This needs to be quoted far and wide.

Did the feds say they would remove funding if a delay occurs?  If so, then even a delay will kill the project because I can't see it being a good investment without the fed funding.

 

They did, but technically there's no delay if enough signatures are collected for a referendum, since construction would have to continue until a vote in 2014.  I wouldn't expect the feds to yank the money while supporters are fighting and still have good odds.  We'll see what happens next week.

How far along is the car barn?

Site prep is complete and MSD work is underway.

I am a lifelong Cinti resident.  I voted for Cranley, mostly because I agreed with his position on the streetcar.  I can also see the logic of PG's position, although I don't support it right now.  I have been reading some of the posts here today (catching up on news), and I can see how strongly supporters feel about this.  The problem is that if you are looking at this project as a resident of Westwood, Bond Hill, Walnut Hills, or Hyde Park (for example), you see this as a very expensive project that will benefit few city residents directly.  Operating costs alone might kill important future projects in other neighborhoods, or reduce police and other important budgets (streetcar might be icing, but getting the crime rate down is really the cake).  This project will certainly die unless supporters more clearly articulate in concrete terms how the whole city is benefitting, and how the operating costs will not deprive all the other neighborhoods of projects they want. 

 

Until we can see a concrete version of benefits to city, we have just theory to go on.  PG might have a way to save the project. Many of us trust his judgment, so supporters need to work with him quickly to make a case that the whole city can buy into.  You guys have a real challenge in front of you....

^Everyone needs to be suspicious of this post.  Reads like Cranley himself wrote it.  Cranley has a long history of ghost writing letters to the editor and citizen comments before council. 

 

The anti-streetcar folks have had 7 years go acquaint themselves with the facts.  But since the facts don't support their obstructionism, over and over again they return to matters that were resolved in 2007. 

 

 

>how the operating costs will not deprive all the other neighborhoods of projects they want. 

 

The operating budget does not pay for "projects".  Unless of course we return the federal grant and are forced by law to gut the police force to pay for Cranley's political stunt. 

Hey DAVEINCINTI...you are right! You would not personally benefit from it. Question for you though, do you ever fly into O'Hare and use the blue line to get Downtown? Yeah? Awesome, could let the feds and the FTA know that you would personally benefit if they sent us the millions of dollars here in Chicago that Cincy will give back to do upgrades on the Blue Line..it could sure use it!!

 

We are already enjoying the millions that Kasich gave back for 3C..the high speed upgrade to Amtrak CHI to STL is becoming a reality now! We love it when Ohio forfeits money so we can upgrade our infrastructure instead!!!! 

Well, I can assure you that I am not Mr. Cranley (nor have I ever met him).  I am very concerned with the future of this city, having lived here for the 50 years I have been alive, so I do have an interest in what happens here. As for having years to acquaint myself with this project, that is part of the problem.  If the project was a clear winner for Cinti, it would already enjoy majority support.  Most people I talk to who don't reside on the line and are therefore not directly benefitting do not understand the need for a project that cannot clearly sustain itself.

 

Fortunately, PG is someone who I respect, so I will listen closely to his input on how to proceed.  Just throwing rocks at residents who are on either side of this issue will surely lead to the failure of the project.  Is this site just for supporters to rally each other, or are others welcome to share their views on the project?

Daveinciti how can you say the operating budget would effect police if the streetcar is running? They are not even in the same budget. There is more than one budget in the city of Cincinnati.  All the budgets put together is 1.2 billion. If the city could not afford 4 million then they shouldn't be a city.

I am a lifelong Cinti resident.  I voted for Cranley, mostly because I agreed with his position on the streetcar.  I can also see the logic of PG's position, although I don't support it right now.  I have been reading some of the posts here today (catching up on news), and I can see how strongly supporters feel about this.  The problem is that if you are looking at this project as a resident of Westwood, Bond Hill, Walnut Hills, or Hyde Park (for example), you see this as a very expensive project that will benefit few city residents directly.  Operating costs alone might kill important future projects in other neighborhoods, or reduce police and other important budgets (streetcar might be icing, but getting the crime rate down is really the cake).  This project will certainly die unless supporters more clearly articulate in concrete terms how the whole city is benefitting, and how the operating costs will not deprive all the other neighborhoods of projects they want. 

 

Until we can see a concrete version of benefits to city, we have just theory to go on.  PG might have a way to save the project. Many of us trust his judgment, so supporters need to work with him quickly to make a case that the whole city can buy into.  You guys have a real challenge in front of you....

 

A concrete version of benefits to the city?  This was provided years ago with the economic impact study that showed it would likely bring huge benefits not only to downtown but the city as a whole. Until people understand the importance of a strong central core, they'll never be able to understand why the streetcar is such an important investment.  Remember that none of the other city neighborhoods would exist without Cincinnati. Its what defines the entire region and therefore it should be our strongest, most vibrant neighborhood. It makes no sense to just do little projects here and there in Westwood or Hyde Park or wherever when the central core is still struggling.

 

 

3-to-1 ROI benefits the entire city. Period.

I cannot think of a way to explain the benefits of the streetcar in a WLW or WLWT soundbite. The constant harangue of BS from idiot news outlets, obstructionists & Cranley's low info rhetoric is hard to overcome. His divisiveness worked, tho & Dave is right. Why should I care if Walnut Hills or Mt Washington burn to the ground?

oh, right, I'm a Cincinnatian & cannot possibly see how letting an entire neighborhood rot & foster organized crime helps anybody in the city.

TROLLINCITI is more like it.  I wouldn't waste your time engaging.

So...what is the plan from here? There's no way the project can be immediately killed next week - right? What is the plan for a potential referendum?

This city does not need another embarrassment.

So...what is the plan from here? There's no way the project can be immediately killed next week - right? What is the plan for a potential referendum?

This city does not need another embarrassment.

We got 4 years of embarrassment coming.

Well, that's true...but I'm talking $100 million of direct embarrassment

Jack, everyone wants a strong central core.  City taxpayers are already paying for stadiums for downtown.  We have paid for past expensive projects also (anyone remember the downtown skywalks and other previous projects?).  Cinti consists of many neighborhoods, some of which have gone for many years without any major projects like this one.  If we spend all our improvement dollars on OTR and downtown, Cinti will cease to be a city also.  I, for one, think that 20 smaller projects in various neighborhoods all over make more sense than one huge project that only benefits downtown/OTR.  Many of us want to see balance from city hall when it comes to spending, not one area receiving a huge project while other areas never see anything.  That little project in Hyde Park might not mean anything to you, but it means a lot to those residents and property owners in that neighborhood....

 

The sad thing here is that (as someone who is very liberal) I probably agree with the pro-streetcar crowd about 99% of the time on all issues....

different neighborhoods have different needs. They have different costs. Cranley's approach of doling out cash to everybody equally is fine for buying votes from immature voters but a bad way of investing in the city efficiently.

You simply can't get the same ROI from a similar investment in other neighborhoods. Which is why this project is much better for Westwood than a similar investment in Hyde Park.

 

Regardless, the streetcar can be extended into other neighborhoods AND it can serve as a portion of a light rail network which would serve many neighborhoods and suburbs. Downtown is the only obvious place to start such a system. Look at the forest, not the tree.

Everyone keeps talking about what a great ROI this will be for the city.  As far as I know, these are theoretical assertions only.  Can anyone name 1-2 significant employers (with reference) who are locating to downtown because of the streetcar?  What evidence is there that this ROI can only be achieved by this project (OTR seems to be progressing fairly well without it).  There have been other major projects recently in that area, such as the redo of Washington Park.  How much is enough for OTR/downtown? Will the time ever come when Cinti should start working on its other neglected neighborhoods, of which there are many?

>Will the time ever come when Cinti should start working on its other neglected neighborhoods, of which there are many?

 

Will the time arrive when people who troll websites like this use their real names and stand by their statements?

The fact is Downtown Cincinnati and OTR are what should be looked at as 'Global Cincinnati.' It is the city's global hub, its global brand, and people ought to start treating it like that and stop pitting it against regional and neighborhood centers like Westwood and Hyde Park. If the region is to have a chance in the 21st Century, it needs to improve the core with global amenities, with things other global cities already have, like first class transit. And despite how great its 'bones' are, in this regard downtown Cincinnati is doing poorly compared to American/global counterparts. So as far as I am concerned, we aren't close in terms of 'what is enough' for downtown/OTR. 

Everyone keeps talking about what a great ROI this will be for the city.  As far as I know, these are theoretical assertions only.  Can anyone name 1-2 significant employers (with reference) who are locating to downtown because of the streetcar?  What evidence is there that this ROI can only be achieved by this project

 

I suspect this information has been linked, quoted, and argued about over and over again. And people against the streetcar cry ignorant and bury their heads in the sand. We provide real numbers and you question its legitimacy without any evidence of your own.

 

Here is a article citing real examples from various rail projects.

 

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/media/uploads/nm/impacts_of_rail_transif_on_property_values.pdf

CONCLUSIONS

Rail transit investments have proven positive effects on property values. In fact, the effect of a new fixed guideway transit investment is two-fold. First, transit investments improve the convenience of accessing other parts of a region from station locations. Second, rail transit accessibility enhances the attractiveness of property, increasing the likelihood that the property can be developed or redeveloped to a more valuable and more intense use. Documentation of the impact of rail transit on property values primarily focuses on the first effect. Property value premiums due to increases in accessibility range between 3% and 40%.

I am a lifelong Cinti resident.  I voted for Cranley, mostly because I agreed with his position on the streetcar.  I can also see the logic of PG's position, although I don't support it right now.  I have been reading some of the posts here today (catching up on news), and I can see how strongly supporters feel about this.  The problem is that if you are looking at this project as a resident of Westwood, Bond Hill, Walnut Hills, or Hyde Park (for example), you see this as a very expensive project that will benefit few city residents directly.  Operating costs alone might kill important future projects in other neighborhoods, or reduce police and other important budgets (streetcar might be icing, but getting the crime rate down is really the cake).  This project will certainly die unless supporters more clearly articulate in concrete terms how the whole city is benefitting, and how the operating costs will not deprive all the other neighborhoods of projects they want. 

 

Until we can see a concrete version of benefits to city, we have just theory to go on.  PG might have a way to save the project. Many of us trust his judgment, so supporters need to work with him quickly to make a case that the whole city can buy into.  You guys have a real challenge in front of you....

 

I'll bite:

 

Your city is a racist, washed-up rust belt dump that's literally a stone's throw from Kentucky, and might as well be there.

 

I'm sorry, that was really harsh. But it's what a lot of the rest of the country thinks about you. I should know, I grew up there and then left, and even in Columbus I am regularly confronted with this attitude.

 

Cincinnati's face to the world and its only hope - it's only shot - to fulfill its potential and compete with the rest of the cities in the country is it's scenic, historic riverfront and central neighborhoods. Like it or not, for Cincinnati to remain relevant it needs to throw all the love and money it can at the core. Nobody in the national economy gives a shit about Westwood or Hyde Park; $100 million investments in those neighborhoods aren't going to make Cincinnati more competitive while the core is still performing vastly below its potential.

 

Downtown and Over the Rhine ARE your neighborhoods. That is your city, and last time anyone checked it's still dying. People in the residential parts of the city need to stop squabbling over these issues like rats on a sinking ship and get in line behind the downtown - YOUR downtown. Your economic success is linked to the competitiveness and success of your city, you don't just go to work and pay your taxes in a vacuum.

 

I say all this as an outsider. It's tough love. But it's the truth. The average person in Charlotte or Minneapolis don't even know you exist anymore, so you'd better start taking some serious risks. The outgoing mayor understood this.

This StrongTowns article describes exactly why strengthening the core is so important to a city and region.  In a nutshell, properties in the core are an order of magnitude more valuable than the sprawling neighborhoods.  You can pour incredible amounts of investment into these outer neighborhoods, and even a doubling or tripling of values (and thus taxes), which is highly unlikely, pales in comparison to even a small improvement in value in the downtown.  2x $300,000 is peanuts compared to 1.2x $10,000,000.

 

 

Original caption from the article:  "You'll never guess where the traditional downtown is at. (Hint: the purple in the middle.)"

Honestly Civvik hit it right on. What company would locate here? Terrible airport with the highest prices in the nation. Terrible political scene with politicians trying to ban funds for the city. A new mayor that helped lore a company outside the city limits.

 

That's progress?? PUHLEASE!!!!

Jack, everyone wants a strong central core.  City taxpayers are already paying for stadiums for downtown...

 

First, it's COUNTY taxpayers, not CITY taxpayers.  Yes, the city is in the county, but people constantly hang the stadium expense around Cincinnati's neck, and it's really Hamilton County that negotiated such a poor deal.  No offense intended, but this along with your misconceptions about the city budget, skepticism about ROI, and questions about the project that were answered back in 2007, and in 2008, and in 2009... illustrate why the people should not have direct control over what gets built.  We live in a republic so that the people don't need to be educated about every single issue, so they don't have to be experts in finance, accounting, city planning, etc.  We elect people to commission studies and make sound decisions based on those results.  It shouldn't matter what you or I think about any given city project.  The mayor, city manager, and city council thought the streetcar project was a net gain for the city, so that should be enough.  However, we also trust that those elected are going to continue moving the city forward as best they can, and that they aren't going to simply destroy the work of their predecessors out of spite.  How we proceed from here is anyone's guess.

Everyone keeps talking about what a great ROI this will be for the city.  As far as I know, these are theoretical assertions only.  Can anyone name 1-2 significant employers (with reference) who are locating to downtown because of the streetcar?  What evidence is there that this ROI can only be achieved by this project (OTR seems to be progressing fairly well without it).  There have been other major projects recently in that area, such as the redo of Washington Park.  How much is enough for OTR/downtown? Will the time ever come when Cinti should start working on its other neglected neighborhoods, of which there are many?

 

As a complete outsider, here is something that is not a theoretical assertion and the main reason why Cincinnati should continue the project. YOU ALREADY SIGNED THE CONTRACTS, CONSTRUCTION IS UNDERWAY. The city has signed contracts with the federal government. Huge, huge documents, can't you imagine the cost the federal government bore to review and construct these documents. Don't you understand how pissed off they're going to be if you back out after you sign all of the documents. You will lose the Duke lawsuit and have to pay millions of dollars to move utilities for nothing. You will have to pay millions of dollars just to wind down construction and maybe millions more on the contract with the construction companies. The contracts are signed, they are legally binding. You will have to pay millions of dollars to CAF for nothing. Wisconsin is mired in lawsuits over backing out of contracts with Talgo. Cincinnati will be a laughing stock throughout the country. Do you think the federal government is going to plop down grant money to a city that has backed out after the contacts were signed? Do you think businesses will willingly contract with the city? The time to argue over whether or not the streetcar was worth it is over. Complete the project.