All told, the 11 ordinances contain approximately $1.25 million to "pause" construction, while they determine how much it will cost to "continue" construction.  However, Deatrick says it would cost $590,000 to suspend work with MPD for one month, and he has no idea where they got their $100,000 per ordinance figure.

Is there a breakdown/list on each issue? I think one of them, which was a proposal by PG to implement a taxing district along the route, was actually solid.

Chris Wetterich ‏@ChrisCinciBiz:

 

1 thing @jdeatrick said a few minutes ago that should have caught everyone's attention: It might only be $400K more to complete than cancel

Is there a breakdown/list on each issue? I think one of them, which was a proposal by PG to implement a taxing district along the route, was actually solid.

 

This proposal has not yet been presented by PG, as far as I know.

Chris Wetterich ‏@ChrisCinciBiz  1m

1 thing @jdeatrick said a few minutes ago that should have caught everyone's attention: It might only be $400K more to complete than cancel

This is sheer madness.  The mayor is driving the bus off the cliff.

PG's proposal was not included.  The 11 ordinances would stop construction temporarily (I believe) while the independent audit is conducted. 1 ordinance for each company involved (i.e. Duke, Time Warner, CAF, MPD, etc...)

This is sheer madness.  The mayor is driving the bus off the cliff.

 

No he isn't driving. He left the meeting.

Thanks, and wow.

 

Re Seelbach:

 

"The Streetcar committee meeting was just postponed to 1pm, amid disorder and chaos. The new Council tried to convene the meeting: 1) WITHOUT rules (none have been adopted yet); 2) WITHOUT any motion from Council assigning members to committees (so is this even a committee?); and 3) WITHOUT any ordinances! They wanted us to vote on ordinances that NO ONE has seen. Not even the committee chair, David Mann. Things are starting out VERY rough here for the new leadership."

 

and:

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/02/feds-put-streetcar-money-on-hold/

This is what the city voted for. CHAOS!!!

I'm hearing that all 11 ordinances have appropriations attached, meaning they go into effect immediately and cannot be overturned through referendum.  Voting to begin soon...

 

 

City Solicitor John Curp says the ordinances aren't subject to referendum.

So in other words, we are screwed?

 

Are ordinances subject to referendum?

 

Via Nathaniel Livingston:

 

'Here's what the Charter says: "The initiative and referendum powers are reserved to the people of the city ON ALL QUESTIONS which THE COUNCIL IS AUTHORIZED TO CONTROL BY LEGISLATIVE ACTION; such powers shall be exercised in the manner provided by the laws of the state of Ohio." (Article II, Section 3)

 

A lie travels around the world before the truth gets her shoe on. Et tu @CityBeatCincy and German Lopez!? Quote from today's CityBeat: "[streetcar supporters are] threatening a referendum on any action council takes to pause or cancel the project, BUT SOME ARE CONCERNED COUNCIL WILL ATTACH A FUNDING MEASURE TO LEGISLATION THAT WOULD ALLOW A CANCELLATION OR PAUSE TO GO INTO EFFECT IMMEDIATELY, even if the project makes it onto the November 2014 ballot." Considering this lie has travelled around the world already it looks like I'll be forced to put my paralegal shoes back on.

 

The Charter doesn't say anything about Cincinnati voters losing the right of referendum because Council attaches a funding measure to legislation. It's written in plain English. If the Council is authorized to vote on something, the people have the power to challenge it by referendum. Have Cincy's news editors all gone on vacation at the same time!?! Who's fact checking these stories!!!

 

And who are these concerned people? Why didn't they keep their concerns to themselves? Should everyone thank Mike Moroski & crew for helping spread this bad information. Now not only is there a battle with people at City Hall putting out misinformation, we've now got to deal with friendly fire from people who are supposed to be on our side!!!) '

 

http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=19996&stateId=35&stateName=Ohio

 

City Solicitor John Curp says that the ordinances aren't subject to referendum.

 

German Lopez of CityBeat also tweeted: "Ohio Constitution disallows referendums on appropriations: http://t.co/nK9RpzjFWU. That's what city charter bases referendum rules on."

And Winburn ignores the potential for job opportunities for middle & lower class people (who might be black or female) to invest around the streetcar line.

So Mann wants council to vote based upon a personal hunch he has about how the federal government will act? It baffles me now the "anti-streetcar" contingent is willing to act solely on ideology and not on facts. 

Sounds like the Smitherman conflict of interest created a dust up.

I have very little faith in politicians, but I am still flabbergasted that someone could listen to local business owners, contractors, etc, and still decide to cancel this project in addition to the fact that the cost to cancel is very close to the cost to complete.  Unbelievable.

Why is Christopher Smitherman still allowed to vote on anything?

I don't post often, but this has really got me angry, like move out of the city angry. Im trying to distill all of this but can someone clarify if there is still light at the end of the tunnel or is this pack your bags time? Where is John Schneider to explain all this and (hopefully) calm me down?

I have very little faith in politicians, but I am still flabbergasted that someone doesn't listen to local business owners, contractors, etc, and still decide to cancel this project in addition to the fact that the cost to cancel is very close to the cost to complete.  Unbelievable.

Fixed

For these votes that are counting 5-4, who are the for and against?  I'm guessing:

 

Against:

Smitherman

Winburn

Flynn

Mann

Murray

 

For:

PG

Young

Simpson

Seelbach

 

I'm surprised Flynn and Murray are this opposed to the streetcar that they are voting against delaying the committee vote for a little bit.

 

The fix is in. There is no amount of data which would change these peoples' minds.

 

this is killing me

This is my first time ever following Cincinnati politics, and it only took me 2 minutes to realize that Smitherman seems like a smug scum bag.

So Mann wants council to vote based upon a personal hunch he has about how the federal government will act? It baffles me now the "anti-streetcar" contingent is willing to act solely on ideology and not on facts. 

 

Of course. If they were, the streetcar project would be done by now and the next phases in advanced planning because the skeptics would have been converted by now with the public's overwhelmingly positive responses to the streetcars.

 

Instead, Cincinnati is at risk of repeating history that has kept it a second- or third-tier city......

 

 

This has gotten to be a fast-moving, twist-laden saga today that can only be followed on Twitter. Examples.....

 

91.7 WVXU ‏@917wvxu  17m

Part of e-mail from Haile Foundation to incoming city mgr Carden: "An adult conversation needs to occur before its reckless cancellation."

 

German Lopez ‏@germanrlopez  11m

Ordinance allocates $100,000 to suspend MPD's streetcar work, but Prus says it will cost MPD $590,000 to suspend work for a month.

 

Luke for Ohio ‏@LukeforOhio  11m

Cincinnati is spending $100M to build Kansas City's streetcar because Cranley's fundraiser's dad didn't like Mark Mallory's dad.

Is the feed no longer working? Or is it just my computer?

 

Edit: Here's a new link http://news.cincinnati.com/interactive/article/20131202/CINCI/131202014/Watch-live-Committee-city-council-meet-about-streetcar

Great testimony happening right now.  Hope that council will actually listen to them

Great testimony happening right now.  Hope that council will actually listen to them

 

Their mind is already made up

Completely and totally disgusted with this whole situation.  Here is the email I just sent to Kevin Flynn:

 

 

Hi Mr. Flynn,

I am writing to you not just as another concerned citizen, but as someone who volunteered on one of your previous campaigns, talked about the issues with you, and as someone who knows that you are a smart and rational man.  Despite your stance on the streetcar, I voted for you this year, and I told my friends and colleagues that you were worthy of a vote because you were fair, objective, and intelligent.  However, after watching the proceedings on the streetcar today, I am ashamed to have contributed to your election, even minimally. You have shown a complete disregard for facts and reason, and have blindly sided with opposition to the project, despite the fact that it costs nearly as much to cancel as it does to proceed- and that is not even considering ROI, damaged reputation to the feds and contractors, etc. Where is the rational, intelligent man that I thought I came to know a few summers back, when I was canvassing festivals with your t-shirt on, spreading the word about how you would have been a positive force for change on City Council?  Where is the candidate that had this to say about the project just two years ago:

 

“I support the development of the streetcar as an economic development tool and job creator. All of the studies show, and all of the cities which have invested in streetcars have demonstrated, economic benefits for the city many times greater than the investment. We cannot continue to make cuts in services and play accounting tricks in order to balance our budget. In order to sustain our city in the long-term, we need to grow our city and invest in the infrastructure that will encourage private investment.

“I support the current plan as a first phase of a larger system that will connect our uptown hospital/university district with our downtown entertainment/Central Business District. I would like to see the city pay for construction with Tax Increment Financing revenues generated by increased property values along the streetcar route.”

 

I moved back to Cincinnati after living in DC and Los Angeles because I believe in this city, and truly thought that we were on the cusp of getting out of our own way for a change and letting progress really happen.  I do not live in Downtown or Over the Rhine, and I did not support the parking plan.  I hated the way the city shoved the parking lease through, and absolutely believe in the right of referendum- a right you obviously do not respect.

 

I have nothing to gain from the streetcar except the health of my city that I care so much about. I do not support the streetcar because I'm expecting a return on investment or because it will make my day to day life easier.  I support it because I think it is a critical first step to a comprehensive transit system that this region so desperately needs.  We tried a large transit proposal with the MetroMoves plan, and it failed dismally. The streetcar is an attempt to start small- to introduce rail in the place that makes the most sense to start (CBD), in the hope that we can expand and add to the system piece by piece.

 

Canceling the streetcar almost ensures that rail transit will not be happening for 10 years or more.  I refuse to give up the rest of my 20s and 30s while Cincinnati finally decides it's time to enter the 21st century, and as such will be looking to relocate. I feel that you have completely surrendered your integrity and intelligence as a ploy to get elected and stay on City Council.  I do not think you are acting in the best interest of the city, and I think history will remember this Council and Mayoral administration as the one that set Cincinnati back a generation.

 

I ask you to please reconsider your stance, but I fear that is too late.

 

 

 

Is the feed no longer working? Or is it just my computer?

 

Edit: Here's a new link http://news.cincinnati.com/interactive/article/20131202/CINCI/131202014/Watch-live-Committee-city-council-meet-about-streetcar

 

CitiCable feed: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/media//

I can't watch anymore. this is completely disgusting. I would pay good money to find out what the REAL reasons are behind these votes, because they're sure as hell not in good-faith interest of the city.

 

Someone needs to file for an injunction PRONTO while the Ohio Ethics Board reviews whether Smitherman has a conflict of interest. That or some heavyweights in the business community pitching a major b!tch to Cranley are the only way I see this going forward.

Smitherman clearly violated this . He has an ethics problem http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3A3et7SYZM6jcJ%3Acode.cuyahogacounty.us%2Fen-US%2FCCRC-T4C404.aspx+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us . 2921.42 A

This is my first time ever following Cincinnati politics, and it only took me 2 minutes to realize that Smitherman seems like a smug scum bag.

um, no - he is a completely insane sociopathic menace to society as a whole. He might have actually NOT known what was up with his brother's construction company because his family banned him from family functions due to his insanity.

dunno

This is PGs opportunity to separate himself from Cranley for next election.  He just makes to much sense for the voters, that scares me.

If Cranley cancel the streetcar. We should protest anything he does from here on.  Cincinnati is getting national attention in the wrong way. I wouldn't invest here in this can't get right city

Looks like some new fake posters are infesting Cincinnati.com articles, claiming that they do or did live in Portland.  Makes me suspicious that COAST has contacted some national tea party group and they've instructed their digital bullies to pounce. 

Seems as though the media is continuing to turn against this irrational behavior. 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/02/cost-to-finish-the-streetcar-may-only.html

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/02/foundation-may-yank-music-hall-park.html

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/02/council-majority-continues-to-deny.html

Playing with fire will get the city burned.

I can't believe that Cranley went from a figure of $50,000 a day to $100,000 a day being spent on constriction of the streetcar. I highly question the veracity of his statements. Where is he getting these facts that he keeps using?

I can't believe that Cranley went from a figure of $50,000 a day to $100,000 a day being spent on constriction of the streetcar. I highly question the veracity of his statements. Where is he getting these facts that he keeps using?

 

Dietrick mentioned the 100k figure today and they ran with it

 

Naturally they believe that number but not the other numbers about canceling the project from Deitrick

I can't believe that Cranley went from a figure of $50,000 a day to $100,000 a day being spent on constriction of the streetcar. I highly question the veracity of his statements. Where is he getting these facts that he keeps using?

 

Actually, John Deatrick testified that $50,000/day was too low.

I seriously can not believe the stupidity of our new city leadership. Its like somebody put a bunch of 4 year olds in charge of the city.

Thanks for clarifying that for me, I only caught the end of the meeting.

I can't believe that Cranley went from a figure of $50,000 a day to $100,000 a day being spent on constriction of the streetcar. I highly question the veracity of his statements. Where is he getting these facts that he keeps using?

 

Dietrick mentioned the 100k figure today and they ran with it

 

Naturally they believe that number but not the other numbers about canceling the project from Deitrick

 

right, they just forgot to ask him for that in writing.

Unbelievable - this council really is playing with fire, and I do not think they grasp the multitude of impacts cancelling will cause.  They are pretty cavalier in this "pause" so it does not surprise me.  I like when the detractors talk about canceling they fail every time to mention that this is lost money, and we will also lose out on any ROI - not feeling good unless Flynn somehow changes his mind.  I wrote twice with no response.

Flynn is an idiot.

Unfortunately for you supporters in Cincy I can't think of anything to do at this point but hope that certain council members are trying to use the "pause" as a cover to say they did their own due diligence and couldn't responsibly cancel. That would be cover for them with their voters, and with Cranley, who I now believe may actually be insane and could make their lives uncomfortable for the next four years.

That's it. I'm moving to Cleveland the first chance I can...to get my "rail fix" since I'm part of this mysterious "rail cult"....OOOOOH

(For educational reasons, actually ;) )

 

City Council was quite a show today. First crappy episode of four long crappy seasons.....

Flynn is an idiot.

 

Flynn really disappoints me. He came to many of the No on Nine events and I shook his hand and spoke to him several times. He swore up and down that the streetcar was a vital investment. Now, out of nowhere, he changes his stance to get himself elected and is turning his back to people like me who previously supported him ( I voted for him that election ).  Really makes me no longer trust any politician.

I just hope Young and Flynn are right that the Feds will allow a few days at least to sort things out, and that the "substantial progress" being mandated is only reported on a quarterly basis.  At least then it won't mean a pause of any length leads to revocation of the federal funds, but of course I have no faith that the Cranleycronies won't try to cook the numbers any way they can.  That Flynn actually thinks it's reasonable to assume operating costs could balloon to $28 million per year based on what Metro fares were 30 years ago (never mind things like inflation) shows that he's totally off his rocker. 

$28 million a year???? LOL  That's so unheard of. Can they really lie to the public? Shouldn't someone be prosecuted for spreading lies?

He basically said that since metro FARES were $0.25 30 years ago and they're $1.75 now (a 7x increase), then the expected year-1 OPERATING COST for the streetcar of $3.5-4 million could be $28 million in year 30.  By that logic...