December 8, 201311 yr Folks, there are some justified causes for optimism here. If you want to talk yourself or others into depressive stupors, that's your call. But I do believe it is at least premature and most totally unnecessary. I ask to you to let the next couple of weeks play out. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 8, 201311 yr Turns out it's on the schedule at 6:00 AM today so I missed it, but I saw a tweet that PG Sittenfeld was slated to appear on Local 12's Newsmakers with Dan Hurley to discuss the streetcar. It'll probably be available online tomorrow. Should be interesting. ETA: I think it may be on Ch. 20 at 10:30 AM today Channel 20 on TWC at 1030(Locally)
December 8, 201311 yr Both Sittenfeld and Mann were guests on Newsmakers. It was obviously taped before KPMG was tapped and the Feds granted the extension until Dec. 19. PG was very assertive about not wasting "10s of millions of dollars" and has faith that Phase 1 will provide a decent ROI. Mann reiterated that if the costs to cancel or complete are close, he'll vote to complete.
December 8, 201311 yr Good perspective on the streetcar issue (surprisingly from the Enquirer... why weren't they supportive before?) A lot of good points. Cincinnati won't stay competitive in the global talent market without better transit options: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131204/EDIT02/312040121/Streetcar-debacle-hurts-our-reputation
December 8, 201311 yr Both Sittenfeld and Mann were guests on Newsmakers. It was obviously taped before KPMG was tapped and the Feds granted the extension until Dec. 19. It'll be here eventually http://www.local12.com/entertainment/features/newsmakers/#.UqSl2SjvMUh They didn't say if the audit will take into account ROI. Mann indicated they will taake into account building Phases 2,3,4,5.... We're going to see some wild numbers. Nothing will be clear. Portune did the Eastern Corridor in the 2nd half. Portune & Mann baffle me anymore.
December 8, 201311 yr Either this is all a protracted game, where Flynn and Mann will flip and Cranley will be able to show that he took it to the extreme in trying to halt the project, or Cranley is going to show us all the factual reasons why not to kill it then kill it anyway. Why? Because this is an effort to shatter the progressive crowd that networked during the Mallory/Qualls era. He gives us no hope by creating an atmosphere where facts don't matter and will be used against you, you elitist. Everything will be done HIS way, and you'll never know what he's going to do because everything is carried out behind the scenes. I'm also suspicious that some of this craziness might be rooted in a leadership dispute at 3CDC and that Cranley is on the side of someone who wants 3CDC to go away. Cranley could not only scuttle the streetcar project, he can reverse his own Impaction Ordinance, meaning new government-funded low income housing could be built once again in OTR. So imagine a world not only without a streetcar, but with low income housing built in the middle of the Gateway Quarter expressly to undermine the investments just made over the past five years. Also, he could instruct the police chief to stop patrolling the area, start dumping homeless people there, etc. Anyone old enough to experience more of Tom Luken's political career would see that Cranley's following his playbook. It's not about ideology, it's all about personal political viability. Bill Clinton didn't invent "triangulation". Luken reaped the benefits of that kind of strategy long before. Plus, Luken has a reputation for being utterly disagreeable. Sound familiar? Also, Luken made a lot of noise last summer about the IRS scandal, scoring points among Tea Partiers and their sympathizers. They in turn favored his protege Cranley with their support. Factoid: Qualls beat out Luken for mayor in the early 90s. He's probably been strutting around like a rooster ever since Cranley defeated her. The key to second-guessing Cranley's moves is probably figuring out what serves his political ambition, which (as previously stated on this thread) may be the hope of unseating US Rep. Brad Wenstrup in the 2nd District. Democrat Tom Luken was a fairly long-serving congressman, ironically representing the conservative west side. SO, I may have been wrong when I replied earlier that Cranley wouldn't trash 3CDC's efforts in OTR. I've long suspected that there are many who want OTR to remain an urban ghetto, effectively functioning as a reservation for poor AAs. Scrapping the streetcar will certainly serve that cause.
December 8, 201311 yr Both Sittenfeld and Mann were guests on Newsmakers. It was obviously taped before KPMG was tapped and the Feds granted the extension until Dec. 19. It'll be here eventually http://www.local12.com/entertainment/features/newsmakers/#.UqSl2SjvMUh They didn't say if the audit will take into account ROI. Mann indicated they will taake into account building Phases 2,3,4,5.... We're going to see some wild numbers. Nothing will be clear. Portune did the Eastern Corridor in the 2nd half. Portune & Mann baffle me anymore. Taking into account future phases is where they will make their case for cancellation.
December 9, 201311 yr So they're going to start collecting signatures to amend the city charter for continuing construction? Why would this work? Seems to me the better option would be to argue in court that the votes last week are subject to referendum, on the grounds that the appropriations were for new expenditures. The appropriations exception, so far as I can tell, only applies when the money is for something (e.g. a contract) which has already been committed to.
December 9, 201311 yr So they're going to start collecting signatures to amend the city charter for continuing construction? Why would this work? Seems to me the better option would be to argue in court that the votes last week are subject to referendum, on the grounds that the appropriations were for new expenditures. The appropriations exception, so far as I can tell, only applies when the money is for something (e.g. a contract) which has already been committed to. I brought up this question as well and have received no response. The charter makes no sense unless council approves construction again before Dec 19. If they don't, this is all for nothing.
December 9, 201311 yr Folks, there are some justified causes for optimism here. If you want to talk yourself or others into depressive stupors, that's your call. But I do believe it is at least premature and most totally unnecessary. I ask to you to let the next couple of weeks play out. KJP - thank you! I for one will strive to keep as positive as I can about this. I think a lot of the negativity and depression stems from the profound shock that this happened at all! What I'm hoping is that, even if Cranley wins and the Feds take back their money, the business community might be willing to step in and finish at least this first stage of the project on the same agreed contractual terms. What worries me is Cranley might try to get an ordinance passed requiring all the newly installed track be removed and making it against the law to install any railed transit in the streets of Cincy. Could he get away with something like this? I wouldn't put it past him to attempt it. We'd better be prepared for any and all such eventualities.
December 9, 201311 yr Both Sittenfeld and Mann were guests on Newsmakers. It was obviously taped before KPMG was tapped and the Feds granted the extension until Dec. 19. It'll be here eventually http://www.local12.com/entertainment/features/newsmakers/#.UqSl2SjvMUh They didn't say if the audit will take into account ROI. Mann indicated they will taake into account building Phases 2,3,4,5.... We're going to see some wild numbers. Nothing will be clear. Portune did the Eastern Corridor in the 2nd half. Portune & Mann baffle me anymore. I must've missed the comment about Phases 2,3,4,5... I don't see how auditors could even evaluate anything beyond the first phase -- what data exist?
December 9, 201311 yr Found this national item posted on the Cincinnati Streetcar FB page: http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/public-transit/192291-city-halts-streetcar-that-had-fed-support Unfortunately, it isn't just the costs that some opponents object to. I can remember the puerile gesture of COASTers/WLW talk radio fans who placed decals resembling gunshots all over utility pole streetcar signs the city placed along the route a couple of years ago.
December 9, 201311 yr So they're going to start collecting signatures to amend the city charter for continuing construction? Why would this work? Seems to me the better option would be to argue in court that the votes last week are subject to referendum, on the grounds that the appropriations were for new expenditures. The appropriations exception, so far as I can tell, only applies when the money is for something (e.g. a contract) which has already been committed to. I brought up this question as well and have received no response. The charter makes no sense unless council approves construction again before Jan 19. If they don't, this is all for nothing. I'm not sure I understand either, unless a proposed charter amendment forces resumption of construction. I'll try to find out more.
December 9, 201311 yr i have been following the streetcar off and on since 2009 when we produced a documentary for it in my videography class at UC. that being said, in more recent years, i would say that i have been following it less until the immediate past few months. i know that the route has changed since the original one, but one thing i've been asking myself when i hear/read these people complaining that it will "only benefit CBD and OTR" is whether there is a master plan for the entire region. i saw a map on here a few pages back but from what i took, it was just one user's fantasy map (i'm sorry - i forget who posted it!). perhaps showing that there IS a plan in place to extend the streetcar past OTR and uptown even - to the entire basin would be something that would get more people on board. my initial reaction when i hear those people say that is to freak out and wonder why they can't see that it would be the FIRST phase of something much larger. but if there is no plan in place, perhaps people find it hard to believe that anything would come of other phases if there hasn't been planning already there. obviously it would just be initial... but is there not a master plan involving transportation? the latest master plan i can find is from 2000 or alternatively, it is mentioned in the 2030 OKI regional transportation plan but still with only phase I and phase II.
December 9, 201311 yr Unfortunately, a great many forward-thinking voters played into his hands during this election by not bothering to vote, because - my guess, anyway - is that they couldn't imagine how a man like Cranley could actually be elected. From a safe distance this has been my perspective on that fiasco of an election all along. The abysmal turnout tells that story. In my adopted state complacency had its consequences in the form of a special election for US Senator in 2010. The competent candidate and presumed victor didn't have any "fire in the belly" because it was taken for granted she'd win in a cakewalk. So we ended up with a lightweight whose main claim to fame was modeling shirtless (I should hasten to add that this candidate was male.) Fortunately in this case the error could be reversed, and was, less than three years later. And no major projects - public works or otherwise - ended up suffering. But that was lucky. Chant along with me, "RE-CALL, RE-CALL..."
December 9, 201311 yr So they're going to start collecting signatures to amend the city charter for continuing construction? Why would this work? Seems to me the better option would be to argue in court that the votes last week are subject to referendum, on the grounds that the appropriations were for new expenditures. The appropriations exception, so far as I can tell, only applies when the money is for something (e.g. a contract) which has already been committed to. I brought up this question as well and have received no response. The charter makes no sense unless council approves construction again before Dec 19. If they don't, this is all for nothing. We know where we're going with this.
December 9, 201311 yr Is there not a master plan involving transportation? There have been many of them over the years. Here are just a few: As I keep saying, a plan without funding is just a dream. Anyone can draw a line on a map. It's not the lack of planning, but the lack of funding that is keeping Cincinnati from developing a rail system.
December 9, 201311 yr thanks Eight and State. i found some of those online and browsed through them but couldn't see anything past 2000, though that could be because the website had been redone and i just couldn't find it. i agree that a plan without funding is just a dream but also think that building without an overall goal only gives those who aren't seeing progress right out their front door a reason to shoot the project down. we live in an age of selfishness to where people don't necessarily think for their community but rather for how they can benefit personally (which i think also is an extension to what atlas is saying). and i think that is true to so many aspects, including the streetcar. it just seems like it would be a benefit to say "here are phase I and II of the project, which we currently have funding for (just saying). future extensions (which would be assessed at a later date x many years down the line) would include routes to these different areas."
December 9, 201311 yr the lack of collective will, above all, is what keeps Cincinnati behind Amen! Because if we can get people to stop being so selfish and see that diverse transportation options only help everyone, we would realize the will needed to find the funding.
December 9, 201311 yr Can somebody who's more involved post locations to sign the construction petition?
December 9, 201311 yr Yeah i think this is streetcar related. Winburn is so worried about the city wasting $150,000 on salt and wants to have an investigation, yet wants to flush $100m down the same drain. http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/cincinnati/winburn-city-hid-2000ton-road-salt-mistake/-/13549970/23395002/-/o6461kz/-/index.html?showAds=0&utm_source=Hootsuite&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=wlwt5
December 9, 201311 yr Unfortunately I fear we are headed toward yet another Issue 9/48. This streetcar petition will get the signatures, but then COAST has 5 months to put something on the ballot that interferes with it. So if both are approved COAST's takes effect.
December 9, 201311 yr Quick Question - If Mann or Flynn flip and there is 5-4 in support of the streetcar, cant Cranley just use the veto pen to kill it? Don't both have to flip to ensure it goes forward?
December 9, 201311 yr Yes Cranley can kill it without 6 votes. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
December 9, 201311 yr Unfortunately I fear we are headed toward yet another Issue 9/48. This streetcar petition will get the signatures, but then COAST has 5 months to put something on the ballot that interferes with it. So if both are approved COAST's takes effect. If there are two competing issues on the ballot, the one with the most votes prevails.
December 9, 201311 yr http://news.cincinnati.com/comments/article/20131209/EDIT/131209033/Opinion-Tale-Two-Streetcars
December 9, 201311 yr Unfortunately I fear we are headed toward yet another Issue 9/48. This streetcar petition will get the signatures, but then COAST has 5 months to put something on the ballot that interferes with it. So if both are approved COAST's takes effect. If there are two competing issues on the ballot, the one with the most votes prevails. The one with the most total votes or the one with the most affirming votes?
December 9, 201311 yr This was posted in the Warp's comment section by Flechet: "Ohio Revised Code Sec. 733.57 says "When an obligation or contract made on behalf of a municipal corporation.... creating a public duty, is being evaded or violated, the [City Solicitor] shall apply for.... the specific performance thereof...." In plain English, that means that if the city is contractually obligated to do things relative to public projects -- for example, continue work on a streetcar -- and city officials are violating those contractual obligations, the City Solicitor is REQUIRED by state law to file suit on behalf of the taxpayers of the city to enforce the contractual obligations. If he fails to do so, ANY taxpaying citizen of the city can request that he perform this obligation and, if he does not, can file suit acting in lieu of the solicitor who is refusing to perform a required duty." Is this a new development?
December 9, 201311 yr This was posted in the Warp's comment section by Flechet: "Ohio Revised Code Sec. 733.57 says "When an obligation or contract made on behalf of a municipal corporation.... creating a public duty, is being evaded or violated, the [City Solicitor] shall apply for.... the specific performance thereof...." In plain English, that means that if the city is contractually obligated to do things relative to public projects -- for example, continue work on a streetcar -- and city officials are violating those contractual obligations, the City Solicitor is REQUIRED by state law to file suit on behalf of the taxpayers of the city to enforce the contractual obligations. If he fails to do so, ANY taxpaying citizen of the city can request that he perform this obligation and, if he does not, can file suit acting in lieu of the solicitor who is refusing to perform a required duty." Is this a new development? I like that. Cranley berated everyone in council chambers for trying to "force the city to keep spending money," and he was being very sanctimonious about it. It's called a contract. With so many lawyers on council you'd think they'd at least pretend to understand such things.
December 9, 201311 yr This was posted in the Warp's comment section by Flechet: "Ohio Revised Code Sec. 733.57 says "When an obligation or contract made on behalf of a municipal corporation.... creating a public duty, is being evaded or violated, the [City Solicitor] shall apply for.... the specific performance thereof...." In plain English, that means that if the city is contractually obligated to do things relative to public projects -- for example, continue work on a streetcar -- and city officials are violating those contractual obligations, the City Solicitor is REQUIRED by state law to file suit on behalf of the taxpayers of the city to enforce the contractual obligations. If he fails to do so, ANY taxpaying citizen of the city can request that he perform this obligation and, if he does not, can file suit acting in lieu of the solicitor who is refusing to perform a required duty." Is this a new development? There has been a letter that has been drafted for anyone to send to city hall individually. Click the link and you can personalize it if you wish/change the date and add your contact info. Why isn't curp looking into smitherman's ethics problem? I don't know why. It seems like the local media has forgotten to follow up on this.
December 9, 201311 yr This was posted in the Warp's comment section by Flechet: "Ohio Revised Code Sec. 733.57 says "When an obligation or contract made on behalf of a municipal corporation.... creating a public duty, is being evaded or violated, the [City Solicitor] shall apply for.... the specific performance thereof...." In plain English, that means that if the city is contractually obligated to do things relative to public projects -- for example, continue work on a streetcar -- and city officials are violating those contractual obligations, the City Solicitor is REQUIRED by state law to file suit on behalf of the taxpayers of the city to enforce the contractual obligations. If he fails to do so, ANY taxpaying citizen of the city can request that he perform this obligation and, if he does not, can file suit acting in lieu of the solicitor who is refusing to perform a required duty." Is this a new development? There has been a letter that has been drafted for anyone to send to city hall individually. Click the link and you can personalize it if you wish/change the date and add your contact info. Why isn't curp looking into smitherman's ethics problem? I don't know why. It seems like the local media has forgotten to follow up on this. Exactly. Cranley is generating 2-3 if not more news stories per day. He's overwhelming the system. Any intention to work on the morning's outlandish activity is overwhelmed by whatever craziness he causes that afternoon.
December 9, 201311 yr This was posted in the Warp's comment section by Flechet: "Ohio Revised Code Sec. 733.57 says "When an obligation or contract made on behalf of a municipal corporation.... creating a public duty, is being evaded or violated, the [City Solicitor] shall apply for.... the specific performance thereof...." In plain English, that means that if the city is contractually obligated to do things relative to public projects -- for example, continue work on a streetcar -- and city officials are violating those contractual obligations, the City Solicitor is REQUIRED by state law to file suit on behalf of the taxpayers of the city to enforce the contractual obligations. If he fails to do so, ANY taxpaying citizen of the city can request that he perform this obligation and, if he does not, can file suit acting in lieu of the solicitor who is refusing to perform a required duty." Is this a new development? Seems like something the contractors should be pursuing.
December 9, 201311 yr This was posted in the Warp's comment section by Flechet: "Ohio Revised Code Sec. 733.57 says "When an obligation or contract made on behalf of a municipal corporation.... creating a public duty, is being evaded or violated, the [City Solicitor] shall apply for.... the specific performance thereof...." In plain English, that means that if the city is contractually obligated to do things relative to public projects -- for example, continue work on a streetcar -- and city officials are violating those contractual obligations, the City Solicitor is REQUIRED by state law to file suit on behalf of the taxpayers of the city to enforce the contractual obligations. If he fails to do so, ANY taxpaying citizen of the city can request that he perform this obligation and, if he does not, can file suit acting in lieu of the solicitor who is refusing to perform a required duty." Is this a new development? There has been a letter that has been drafted for anyone to send to city hall individually. Click the link and you can personalize it if you wish/change the date and add your contact info. Why isn't curp looking into smitherman's ethics problem? I don't know why. It seems like the local media has forgotten to follow up on this. Exactly. Cranley is generating 2-3 if not more news stories per day. He's overwhelming the system. Any intention to work on the morning's outlandish activity is overwhelmed by whatever craziness he causes that afternoon. Interesting you mention this. Fox19 had a Streetcar segment and ended with John cranley stating "I don't know what they'll do(Streetcar supporters) if the federal government remove the money" Now he's gotta "small business initiative"segment. He's everywhere Why isn't there a mayoral recall initiative to go along with this Streetcar charter? Saves everyone time
December 9, 201311 yr Why isn't there a mayoral recall initiative to go along with this Streetcar charter? Saves everyone time I'm pretty sure state law requires that person to be in office for at least one year before you can file petitions. I don't think it would be legal to do that now.
December 9, 201311 yr Is there any word on the parking lease? My understanding is that killing it was effectively a breach of contract like canceling the streetcar would be, so has that worked its way through the system yet and are there legal ramifications pending that would be a good example of what's to come if this council's scorched earth policies continue?
December 10, 201311 yr >Interesting you mention this. Fox19 had a Streetcar segment and ended with John cranley stating "I don't know what they'll do(Streetcar supporters) if the federal government remove the money" Now he's gotta "small business initiative"segment. He's everywhere I remember reading around the time that he announced his candidacy that he was surprised by his low name recognition. His policy and extracurricular activities are all about getting his name in the paper, on tv, and on radio several times per day. That's why, given just how insane Cranley is, he might attempt to run against Wenstrup next year. If not in 2014, then in 2016.
December 10, 201311 yr Is there any word on the parking lease? My understanding is that killing it was effectively a breach of contract like canceling the streetcar would be, so has that worked its way through the system yet and are there legal ramifications pending that would be a good example of what's to come if this council's scorched earth policies continue? It was my understanding that The Port agreed to dismantle the agreement. Hence, no breach.
December 10, 201311 yr http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131209/NEWS01/312090053 Kevin Flynn “I don’t think the numbers are going to come back supportive” of continuing streetcar construction..
December 10, 201311 yr http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20131209/NEWS01/312090053 Kevin Flynn “I don’t think the numbers are going to come back supportive” of continuing streetcar construction.. He's already trying to soften the blow of the new "cooked books" numbers. Cranley flat out stated he did not believe John Deatricks numbers? Why should we believe Cranleys? Shouldn't both be averaged to find the real number?
December 10, 201311 yr So all $95~ million in federal funds will be robbed from this project by the corrupt activities of appointed or elected bodies. Here is what the disappearance of $50 million looked like in 2011: *Notice that 2 of 9 TRAC members DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP for THE MOST IMPORTANT MEETING OF THE YEAR. But wait, there's more: Eugene Marchbanks, the black fellow to the right of Jerry Wray, joined TRAC THAT WEEK. Nobody other than Wray even knew who he was! It was his first meeting, but he showed up with PROPS, specifically, a stack of reports and papers from a Columbus light rail study, and he smugly declared that Cincinnati's streetcar project would end up as a similar stack of forgotten reports.
December 10, 201311 yr Is Cranley also against the proposed Oasis light- rail project, and does this project support or conflict with the streetcar project?
December 10, 201311 yr Scott Dean @ScottDean24 14m So I was looking at 3cdc's website and noticed Michael Comer is on their board, but he's also a managing partner for kpmg. @ChrisCinciBiz So The office managing partner of the Cincy office of KPMG is on the 3CDC board. http://www.3cdc.org/who-we-are/board-of-directors/ . It might be nothing…Or it might be something
December 10, 201311 yr So all $95~ million in federal funds will be robbed from this project by the corrupt activities of appointed or elected bodies. Here is what the disappearance of $50 million looked like in 2011: *Notice that 2 of 9 TRAC members DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP for THE MOST IMPORTANT MEETING OF THE YEAR. But wait, there's more: Eugene Marchbanks, the black fellow to the right of Jerry Wray, joined TRAC THAT WEEK. Nobody other than Wray even knew who he was! It was his first meeting, but he showed up with PROPS, specifically, a stack of reports and papers from a Columbus light rail study, and he smugly declared that Cincinnati's streetcar project would end up as a similar stack of forgotten reports. 95 MILLION DOLLARS!!!! Of federal funds that are no longer a part of your LOCAL economy. They are idiots, all of them. Just plain idiots!
December 10, 201311 yr man, I'd love to know what Bond Buyer dot Com has to say. Feds Threaten to Pull Cincinnati Streetcar Funds http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/122_235/feds-threaten-to-pull-cincinnati-streetcar-funds-1058068-1.html
December 10, 201311 yr So all $95~ million in federal funds will be robbed from this project by the corrupt activities of appointed or elected bodies. Here is what the disappearance of $50 million looked like in 2011: *Notice that 2 of 9 TRAC members DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP for THE MOST IMPORTANT MEETING OF THE YEAR. But wait, there's more: Eugene Marchbanks, the black fellow to the right of Jerry Wray, joined TRAC THAT WEEK. Nobody other than Wray even knew who he was! It was his first meeting, but he showed up with PROPS, specifically, a stack of reports and papers from a Columbus light rail study, and he smugly declared that Cincinnati's streetcar project would end up as a similar stack of forgotten reports. I remember that day. Columbus had one of its typical evil rainstorms that dumps so much rain on our flat roads that driving was almost impossible. And the board had to drive home in it.
December 10, 201311 yr So all $95~ million in federal funds will be robbed from this project by the corrupt activities of appointed or elected bodies. Here is what the disappearance of $50 million looked like in 2011: *Notice that 2 of 9 TRAC members DIDN'T EVEN SHOW UP for THE MOST IMPORTANT MEETING OF THE YEAR. But wait, there's more: Eugene Marchbanks, the black fellow to the right of Jerry Wray, joined TRAC THAT WEEK. Nobody other than Wray even knew who he was! It was his first meeting, but he showed up with PROPS, specifically, a stack of reports and papers from a Columbus light rail study, and he smugly declared that Cincinnati's streetcar project would end up as a similar stack of forgotten reports. Add to that the $400 million sent back in connection with the 3C passenger rail project we end up with a total of $495 million. Public transportation has a 5:1 economic activity/cost ratio, making that about $2.5 billion in economic activity lost statewide. Each billion adds about 20,000 jobs, so we have also lost about 50,000 jobs. If these numbers sound inflated, keep in mind that Forest City Enterprises was set to spend $180 million in tiny Riverside (Air Force Museum) and create 6,000 jobs in just this one project. As if Ohio can afford to throw that away. There are some real dimbulb officials out there.
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