Regarding the hop-on, hop-off trolley buses (like Cleveland's, which Cincinnati streetcar opponents rode earlier this year, according to GCRTA staff) as well as the oft-cited success of Cleveland's HealthLine BRT, I think a little context is needed. This is one of my posts over at the Greater Cleveland RTA thread.......

 

So I was just perusing some of GCRTA's Dual Hub planning documents from 1993. It noted that in 1988, 16,000 people every weekday used the reduced-fare (50-cents if I remember right) downtown Loop bus system -- the predecessor of today's free downtown Trolleys which carried 5,000 riders a day in 2012.

 

The same report also noted that buses on Euclid and Carnegie avenues went by an average of every 1.5 minutes in one direction during the two-hour morning rush hour. Throughout each day, these buses carried 54,000 riders per day. In 2012, the HealthLine carried 4.6 million riders, or 12,600 riders per day.

 

EDIT: while I realize the ridership on both the downtown Trolleys and the HealthLine has increased in 2013, they are probably still more in the ballpark of the 2012 numbers than the 1988 data (BTW, total system ridership in 1988 was just shy of 70 million vs. 48.2 million in 2012). I am hopeful about the 2013 data, to be released next month.

This is the best Christmas present EVER!!  Ditherman is in complete meltdown.  Send in the men in white coats.

I hope the mass electorate finally sees Smitherman for the one issue pony he is.  What has that man ever done FOR Cincinnati?  He's a one man self promoting cardboard cutout.  Look in the mirror Smitherman, and change your ways.

 

Your man smitherman just called rob Richardson a communist on twitter

The streetcar opponents are going absolutely nuts on Twitter tonight.

 

Smitherman accused Rob Richardson (long time streetcar supporter) of being a member of the Communist Party. No, that's not a joke or exaggeration; Smitherman actually said that.

 

Cranley continues to tweet anti-streetcar stuff. At what point does he accept the fact that Cincinnati is building the streetcar, it's a settled matter, and it's time for him to stop campaigning and start leading?

 

Dusty Rhodes tweeted tonight that the streetcar will only have 50-100 riders a day. Previously, he had been saying that it will only have 500 riders a day. In reality, I think the projected number is about 4000 daily riders when it opens and constant growth from there.

 

Would love to see these...I like a good laugh!

 

If just one person got on a streetcar every time it stopped at a station, that would still be 1,296 riders a day. And this guy is the County Auditor. Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind that "urban sprawl" and "suburban sprawl" mean exactly the same thing.

 

I disagree. "Sprawl" is a slang term that means extended. Urban sprawl is an extended urban area. Suburban sprawl is an extended suburban area.

 

So what's the difference between urban and suburban? Well, the words mean different things to different people. The U.S. Census does not distinguish between the two, and uses the word "urban" when refering to either urban or suburban. In a simplified kind of way, to me "urban" means "walkable" and "suburban" means "auto-dependent."

 

 

 

 

I have a feeling the buses in that picture are used because of the small area they take up.

 

My guess is that the buses are used because they are inexpensive. They are simply converted compact pickup trucks, and compact ones at that. They probably cost $10,000 U.S. or less brand new, and require no special skills to operate.

 

I wonder what the drivers salaries are in that country.

 

I don't know what drivers make, but the average salary for all workers in that country is the equivalent of $2000 per year U.S., or about $1.00 per hour.

 

My point in all of this is that there is more than one way to operate a transit system, and the lowly bus should not be ruled out.

Keep in mind that "urban sprawl" and "suburban sprawl" mean exactly the same thing.

 

I disagree. "Sprawl" is a slang term that means extended. Urban sprawl is an extended urban area. Suburban sprawl is an extended suburban area.

 

So what's the difference between urban and suburban? Well, the words mean different things to different people. The U.S. Census does not distinguish between the two, and uses the word "urban" when refering to either urban or suburban. In a simplified kind of way, to me "urban" means "walkable" and "suburban" means "auto-dependent."

 

You can use them however you want, but in standard practice "urban sprawl" and "suburban sprawl" mean the same thing. I suspect the reason is that "urban sprawl" was coined to describe the phenomenon before "suburb" became a common term.

 

https://encrypted.google.com/#q=define:urban+sprawl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_sprawl

 

It's still frequent that "urban" is used as a distinction from "rural" and includes suburban areas, depending on the context. The Census Bureau is one example. Another example is the frequent citation of statistics about what percentage of the world's population lives/will live in urban areas by X year. I hear it in the news all the time (sometimes they even slip and use the term "cities," which makes their stat technically inaccurate).

 

I have a feeling the buses in that picture are used because of the small area they take up.

 

My guess is that the buses are used because they are inexpensive. They are simply converted compact pickup trucks, and compact ones at that. They probably cost $10,000 U.S. or less brand new, and require no special skills to operate.

 

Probably right, though from the limited view it seems like a full sized bus might have trouble navigating those streets. Anyway, do you know of an example where a city's transit system uses small buses or vans due primarily to their speed benefits? Or professionals advocating this, backed with data and studies? I'm not aware of any, and I suspect the author of the article isn't, either. Again, I think you're attributing too much sophistication to the author's opinions. He comes across as uninformed to me.

 

I leave open the idea that there could be some merit to a nuanced, and almost certainly unintentional, interpretation of what he said.

A lot of these anything-but-a-train "solutions" from developing nations come from cultures where there is no stigma against riding buses and motorbikes.

Keep in mind that "urban sprawl" and "suburban sprawl" mean exactly the same thing.

 

I disagree. "Sprawl" is a slang term that means extended. Urban sprawl is an extended urban area. Suburban sprawl is an extended suburban area.

 

So what's the difference between urban and suburban? Well, the words mean different things to different people. The U.S. Census does not distinguish between the two, and uses the word "urban" when refering to either urban or suburban. In a simplified kind of way, to me "urban" means "walkable" and "suburban" means "auto-dependent."

 

 

An interesting discussion, but "Sprawl" is not slang and it does not mean "extended." Sprawl: To spread out in a straggling or disordered fashion. Haphazard growth or extension outward.

 

By contemporary standards, London is extensive, but it does not sprawl. Phoenix sprawls. If you are going to equivocate on the term, you're making it useless as an instrument of analysis.

^London and Phoenix both sprawl. The difference is that metro London is mostly urban sprawl while metro Phoenix is mostly suburban sprawl.

 

 

This is Urban Sprawl

 

This is Suburban Sprawl

(Photo posted by Jake Mecklenborg)

 

 

 

More here:

http://www.inspirationgreen.com/suburban-sprawl.html

 

Regardless of what you think it is, the terms are used interchangeably by most people.  Think of it as "sprawling of the urbanized area" where urbanized area is anything that's not rural. 

^Naw, most people use "urban sprawl" or just plain "sprawl" when they mean either urban sprawl or suburban sprawl. "Suburban Sprawl" is not part of their vocabulary.

 

 

The U.S. Census has a definition for urban areas, but not for suburban areas:

 

http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/urdef.txt

"My sprawl is bigger than your sprawl, we've got more houses and cars, SING IT!"*

 

Can we get back to the streetcar, please?

 

*If you get this modified reference, I owe you a beer.

 

My streetcar's bigger than your streetcar!

natininja FTW!

 

Can't wait to have fights with other cities over whose streetcar is better.

I was looking at the Streetcar line the other day, it seems like there are an excessive amount of stops in the CBD. At one point there are 3 stops within a 3 block area.  Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Part of the draw in riding this will be to get you to where you want to be as fast as possible. Cutting out a few stops could help this.

I was looking at the Streetcar line the other day, it seems like there are an excessive amount of stops in the CBD. At one point there are 3 stops within a 3 block area.  Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Part of the draw in riding this will be to get you to where you want to be as fast as possible. Cutting out a few stops could help this.

Rocket packs, catapults would move people quicker.

Or think about it this way, if waiting for a stop light or other traffic to clear out, would it not be more frustrating to want to get on or off but not be allowed to? 

They were unable to put a stop directly in front of the Aranoff Center because that block is one lane narrower. That's why the stop is located one block north, only one block away from the another stop.

^London and Phoenix both sprawl. The difference is that metro London is mostly urban sprawl while metro Phoenix is mostly suburban sprawl.

 

 

This is Urban Sprawl

http://s98.photobucket.com/user/GabrielsPlace/media/paris/p7011365.jpg.html

 

This is Suburban Sprawl

http://s81.photobucket.com/user/jmecklenborg/media/May%202013%20Helicopter/aerialmay2013-884_zpsb07eaa3e.jpg.html

(Photo posted by Jake Mecklenborg)

 

 

 

More here:

http://www.inspirationgreen.com/suburban-sprawl.html

 

 

Sprawl as a subjective slang term can be seen at the neighborhood level. But sprawl as a useful measuring tool of urban economic health can be seen accurately at a regional level. It can be demonstrated statistically as a metro increases its developed area while decreasing its population density. Or it can be demonstrated graphically such as the map below (a similar graphic might be produced for Hamilton County)......

 

I was looking at the Streetcar line the other day, it seems like there are an excessive amount of stops in the CBD. At one point there are 3 stops within a 3 block area.  Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Part of the draw in riding this will be to get you to where you want to be as fast as possible. Cutting out a few stops could help this.

 

I've been looking at this too, but my conclusion is that there may not be enough stops. My benchmark is Portland's N/S streetcar line, where there are about 50% more stops per mile of track. And I think Portland could use a few more stops here and there. Portland stops near the CBD are every two blocks or so, but their blocks are half as long as ours 200 feet compared to our 400 feet most places. I don't think it's a big deal. We can add stops later if needed. Or remove them or convert them to "call stops" -- where you have to signal the driver to stop, like on a bus -- if some of them are seldom used. I know Tacoma has been adding stops to its streetcar line recently. And I'm guessing that evolving downtown will promote similar changes over time.

 

 

^Also, with the cars being 100% low-floor, loading and unloading will happen much faster than on a bus, so the impact of each stop should be minimal.

^Also, with the cars being 100% low-floor, loading and unloading will happen much faster than on a bus, so the impact of each stop should be minimal.

 

On top of that I believe there will be no ticket machine on the streetcars themselves. You should be purchasing a ticket before boarding and only need to present it if someone boards the car to check tickets.

^Also, with the cars being 100% low-floor, loading and unloading will happen much faster than on a bus, so the impact of each stop should be minimal.

 

On top of that I believe there will be no ticket machine on the streetcars themselves. You should be purchasing a ticket before boarding and only need to present it if someone boards the car to check tickets.

 

Will the streetcar follow the system where everyone boards in the front door and shows their ticket to the driver as they walk past? Or is it planned to have all door entry and have police check for tickets periodically? The first cuts down on fare-jumping and doesn't really cause any delays, as boarding and exiting goes smoother since impatient people aren't running into people exiting.

as boarding and exiting goes smoother since inpatient people aren't running into people exiting.

 

There probably aren't going to be any inpatients on the streetcar because by definition, they are stuck in the hospital.

 

Sorry... couldn't resist.

as boarding and exiting goes smoother since inpatient people aren't running into people exiting.

 

There probably aren't going to be any inpatients on the streetcar because by definition, they are stuck in the hospital.

 

Sorry... couldn't resist.

 

Haha, that what I get for using spell check. I had it right the first time!

^Also, with the cars being 100% low-floor, loading and unloading will happen much faster than on a bus, so the impact of each stop should be minimal.

 

On top of that I believe there will be no ticket machine on the streetcars themselves. You should be purchasing a ticket before boarding and only need to present it if someone boards the car to check tickets.

 

Will the streetcar follow the system where everyone boards in the front door and shows their ticket to the driver as they walk past? Or is it planned to have all door entry and have police check for tickets periodically? The first cuts down on fare-jumping and doesn't really cause any delays, as boarding and exiting goes smoother since impatient people aren't running into people exiting.

 

You can board or exit through all four doors, all of which are low-floor double-wide doors.  The Skoda streetcars in Portland and Seattle are an older design, before they were able to build an all low-floor streetcar.  They have two double-wide doors in the center section and a single door up by the driver, but only on one side.  So when the Portland streetcars serve an island station, they only have two double-wide doors, or half what the Cincinnati CAF streetcars will have. 

 

The flow in the Portland streetcars is a bit constricted due to this design.  People heavily favor entering and exiting through the center doors, with only 2-3 at most entering through the front door. 

 

Another issue that hasn't been brought up...it appears that there will be zero stations in Cincinnati where the doors will open on the left side. Will the left-side doors be purposefully disabled? 

 

Some appear to be left side exit, like along Race Street, where the tracks are planned on the east travel lane.

Are final engineering drawings available anywhere?  I'm curious if they plan to run the track along the curb on Race Street next to Washington Park, since that was made no-parking anyway (which is a whole other conversation by itself). 

No, they run in the left lane.  Not sure why, but I am sure that is the case because they spent all summer abandoning the water main in the left lane.

Here's the most detailed engineering drawings i've seen- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/linkservid/18C6F8B2-A69F-4FB3-8A9F7E38EE24EA8F/showMeta/0/

Here's the most detailed engineering drawings i've seen- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/linkservid/18C6F8B2-A69F-4FB3-8A9F7E38EE24EA8F/showMeta/0/

 

Seems odd that there isn't a stop between Hollister and McMillan (though I realize this portion isn't getting built until additional funding is made available).

 

Also, how far into Phase 1b will be constructed? Just Elder Street to make it to the maintenance facility? Or will Findlay and the portion of Vine between Findlay and Elder have tracks installed in Phase 1a?

Here's the most detailed engineering drawings i've seen- http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/linkservid/18C6F8B2-A69F-4FB3-8A9F7E38EE24EA8F/showMeta/0/

 

Seems odd that there isn't a stop between Hollister and McMillan (though I realize this portion isn't getting built until additional funding is made available).

 

Also, how far into Phase 1b will be constructed? Just Elder Street to make it to the maintenance facility? Or will Findlay and the portion of Vine between Findlay and Elder have tracks installed in Phase 1a?

 

No, they are only installing the turns onto Elder and Findlay streets. I don't think they will install any of the straight track on Elder and Findlay until Phase 1B is a sure thing.

No, they are only installing the turns onto Elder and Findlay streets. I don't think they will install any of the straight track on Elder and Findlay until Phase 1B is a sure thing.

 

Since the maintenance facility is on Elder, there will have to be straight track installed, right?

^ It's on Henry, not Elder

Another issue that hasn't been brought up...it appears that there will be zero stations in Cincinnati where the doors will open on the left side. Will the left-side doors be purposefully disabled? 

 

Assuming those drawings are still mostly accurate, left doors will be used on:

 

- 2nd Street stop

- Northbound stops on Main Street in the CBD

- Southbound stops on Race Street in OTR (except for Findlay Market stop)

- Southbound stop in Central Parkway median

 

What's interesting about the document that Brad linked to is that they had shortened the route to Henry Street at the north end, but they had not yet shortened it from Freedom Way to 2nd Street at the south end.

^ It's on Henry, not Elder

 

Err... right. My bad. Carry on.

^I never realized it was ever intended to go to Freedom Way until I looked at that document.  When I saw it, I just assumed that it was always going to Freedom Way and that I had been wrong the whole time.

Posted by: DM4 « on: Today at 12:30:46 PM »

Will the streetcar follow the system where everyone boards in the front door and shows their ticket to the driver as they walk past? Or is it planned to have all door entry and have police check for tickets periodically? The first cuts down on fare-jumping and doesn't really cause any delays, as boarding and exiting goes smoother since impatient people aren't running into people exiting.

 

The fare-payment system where people can board and exit streetcars and buses via all doors is called the "honor fare system."  In Toronto, Ontario, the Toronto Transit Commission has named it "POP," meaning "Proof Of Payment," used mainly on their Queen Street streetcar route.

 

People buy tickets from machines at stops, or use daily, weekly or monthly passes. When boarding, they insert their tickets into small validating machines located by each door - these machines stamp their tickets with the time and day, making them good for trips of up to two hours from that point. On many systems, validated tickets are also good for transfers from streetcar to bus and subway, or vice-versa, as long as an entire trip is completed during the two-hour window.

 

When using the honor-fare-payment system, or POP, a typical rider may find that four out of every five times he/she rides, no one comes by to check to see if they've got a properly-stamped and -validated ticket with them. Essentially that person can take their chances and ride for free and get away with it.

 

HOWEVER, if that same person happens to be "unlucky," a roving ticket inspector shows up and asks everyone present to show their POP (Proof Of Payment,) and if anyone's unable to, the inspector immediately issues that person a fine of up to $200.00.

 

In California, The San Diego Trolley uses the Honor Fare System. Last I knew, the fare-evasion rate in San Diego was pretty low, under 5%. People board and exit the San Diego Trolley by all doors. There are sometimes three cars in one train, but there's only one operator, in the front car. Each of the three cars in that train has four sets of doors per side, so there are TWELVE doors for everyone at crowded rush-hour stops to use.

 

To board, riders waiting on the platform press a button next to the door they're standing closest to when the streetcar or train stops, and the door opens. Same for when they're ready to get off - they press a button on a stanchion by the door they're standing or seated closest to. San Diego Trolley's operators therefore don't have to open and close the doors. If no one presses a button either inside or outside the car or train, that particular door doesn't open. The trolley or train cannot move until everyone has boarded and/or alighted and all doors are shut, thanks to a safety-interlock system.

 

The great advantage of the proof-of-payment honor system is that it lets passengers rapidly board and exit via all doors at all stops, greatly reducing the time the old-fashioned fare-payment systems waste while people slowly file, one by one, in through the front door to drop their fares into the fare box or swipe transit passes. People rummaging through their purses or pockets for bills and coins to pay further slow down the already maddeningly-slow service. This aggravation is a major reason why so many car drivers hate to use public transportation - people don't want to be kept waiting whilst others board and fumble for change at every stop.

 

I assume that Cincinnati's present bus system still uses the old-fashioned one-person-at-a-time-thru-the-front-door payment system. I hope the streetcar introduces the much faster, more efficient honor-fare system. It is used throughout Europe.

^ I'm pretty sure I've seen one step beyond the "conceptual engineering" drawings in that study, and I believe they got rid of the weaving across Main Street from the Banks for one thing.

Posted by: DM4 « on: Today at 12:30:46 PM »

Will the streetcar follow the system where everyone boards in the front door and shows their ticket to the driver as they walk past? Or is it planned to have all door entry and have police check for tickets periodically? The first cuts down on fare-jumping and doesn't really cause any delays, as boarding and exiting goes smoother since impatient people aren't running into people exiting.

 

The fare-payment system where people can board and exit streetcars and buses via all doors is called the "honor fare system."  In Toronto, Ontario, the Toronto Transit Commission has named it "POP," meaning "Proof Of Payment," used mainly on their Queen Street streetcar route.

 

People buy tickets from machines at stops, or use daily, weekly or monthly passes. When boarding, they insert their tickets into small validating machines located by each door - these machines stamp their tickets with the time and day, making them good for trips of up to two hours from that point. On many systems, validated tickets are also good for transfers from streetcar to bus and subway, or vice-versa, as long as an entire trip is completed during the two-hour window.

 

When using the honor-fare-payment system, or POP, a typical rider may find that four out of every five times he/she rides, no one comes by to check to see if they've got a properly-stamped and -validated ticket with them. Essentially that person can take their chances and ride for free and get away with it.

 

HOWEVER, if that same person happens to be "unlucky," a roving ticket inspector shows up and asks everyone present to show their POP (Proof Of Payment,) and if anyone's unable to, the inspector immediately issues that person a fine of up to $200.00.

 

In California, The San Diego Trolley uses the Honor Fare System. Last I knew, the fare-evasion rate in San Diego was pretty low, under 5%. People board and exit the San Diego Trolley by all doors. There are sometimes three cars in one train, but there's only one operator, in the front car. To board, riders waiting on the platform press a button next to the door they're standing closest to when the streetcar or train stops, and the door opens. Same for when they're ready to get off - they press a button on a stanchion by the door they're standing or seated closest to. San Diego Trolley's operators therefore don't have to open and close the doors. If no one presses a button either inside or outside the car or train, that particular door doesn't open. The trolley or train cannot move until everyone has boarded and/or alighted and all doors are shut, thanks to a safety-interlock system.

 

The great advantage of the proof-of-payment honor system is that it lets passengers rapidly board and exit via all doors at all stops, greatly reducing the time the old-fashioned fare-payment systems waste while people slowly file, one by one, in through the front door and drop their fares into the fare box or swipe transit passes. People fumbling for bills and coins in their purses or pockets to pay further slow down the already maddeningly-slow service. This aggravation is a major reason why so many car drivers hate to use public transportation - people don't want to be kept waiting whilst others board and pay at every stop.

 

I assume that Cincinnati's present bus system still uses the old-fashioned one-person-at-a-time-thru-the-front-door payment system. I hope the streetcar introduces the much faster, more efficient honor-fare system. It is used throughout Europe.

 

Thanks for the great response.

 

What would be the issue with a system where tickets are bought at the stations like proof of payment honor systems, but require boarding through the front door. This removes the slow boarding caused by people looking for their money. All they would have to do is walk through the front door and show their ticket as they walked by. As you mentioned, Toronto uses POP. The 501 Streetcar only opens its front door, and that is where most people board, although I dont believe that is a rule. The back door opens only if someone steps on the step to get out. My experience with the system is that it ran very smoothly and boarding delays didn't occur because of the front door only boarding, since it is still an off board fare purchase. This also made things smoother as people weren't running into each other when boarding, which I have experienced a lot when people try boarding before others can get off.

 

I live in Cleveland, so I have experienced proof of payment honor systems on the Healthline and Red Line. I have ridden both lines a lot throughout the years and have only been checked for a ticket once, and that was four years ago. Most people who use the system have had the same experience.

^ The main issue I can think of with POP systems is that they require a lot more fare processing equipment.  There needs to be a ticket machine at every stop which could be exposed to the weather and requires someone to travel around to maintain and refill them with paper and money and such.  There's still the timestamping machine on the vehicles too, which are pretty simple in comparison to fareboxes, but they still need ink and could have issues with jamming or time synchronization, etc.  All that said, the benefits of fast boarding are enormous.  In a more robust transit environment, say if the whole bus system also used POP, or anywhere that has good density, then ticket machines won't be necessary at every stop and passengers can be directed to an adjacent convenience store or more central kiosks to buy tickets. 

I'm still wondering if we shouldn't just have it be fare free for at least the first few years. It would save a pretty penny not having to purchase all of those fare machines and it would really help boost ridership and the flow of people and money throughout the core. (Which is kind of the intent anyway). I know this is a really tough sell right now, but it's worth looking into. Who would make these decisions?  Council? SORTA board?  Did we get the final answer on whether or not SORTA is covering operational costs?

I'm still wondering if we shouldn't just have it be fare free for at least the first few years. It would save a pretty penny not having to purchase all of those fare machines and it would really help boost ridership and the flow of people and money throughout the core. (Which is kind of the intent anyway). I know this is a really tough sell right now, but it's worth looking into. Who would make these decisions?  Council? SORTA board?  Did we get the final answer on whether or not SORTA is covering operational costs?

 

I think corporate sponsors paying for all/most of the operating cost would be needed.  This has been done for the trolleys in downtown Cleveland and could probably also be done in Cincinnati for the streetcar. Without sponsors it would be far too unpopular to do.

 

http://www.riderta.com/routes/e-line

Thanks for posting the link to the track diagram.  I had not looked at any track drawings since a poorly attended meeting at city hall back in the summer of, I think, 2010.  They had detailed drawings of the Vine St. hill and the terminal station at Corry St., on the south side of Corry opposite the BP gas station. 

Page 666.

 

Proof the streetcar is pretty much the devil.

^ I'm pretty sure I've seen one step beyond the "conceptual engineering" drawings in that study, and I believe they got rid of the weaving across Main Street from the Banks for one thing.

 

If you happen to find them, please post a link. I've been looking for those recently.

Im not sure if this has been answered, but will their be railroad signs downtown?

^ The main issue I can think of with POP systems is that they require a lot more fare processing equipment.  There needs to be a ticket machine at every stop which could be exposed to the weather and requires someone to travel around to maintain and refill them with paper and money and such.  There's still the timestamping machine on the vehicles too, which are pretty simple in comparison to fareboxes, but they still need ink and could have issues with jamming or time synchronization, etc.  All that said, the benefits of fast boarding are enormous.  In a more robust transit environment, say if the whole bus system also used POP, or anywhere that has good density, then ticket machines won't be necessary at every stop and passengers can be directed to an adjacent convenience store or more central kiosks to buy tickets. 

 

I hope that our fancy new state of art streetcar does not rely too much on little bits of paper and time stampers with ink. I was dismayed to see that SORTA purchased new ticketing machines that actually print lines of ink on multi-fare cards.

 

There are many excellent examples of RFID-based transit fare systems in use, and I don't believe they require amazing density, and they have been adapted to POP. Maybe there's an even better technology now; I'm not sure.

 

An example is the CharlieCard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CharlieCard). Some inventive ways they adapted the stored-value cards for POP are in the section "CharlieCard on the Green Line".

 

And I hope that nobody in charge is talking about a fare system for the streetcar, but rather talking about a modern, extensible, fare system for transit -- one that will serve us well now and 15 years from now.

 

The same fare card should (at least ultimately) be usable for streetcar, METRO buses, bike rentals, Taxis, and parking meters. Doing this amounts to setting up a secure electronic metering system to record transactions so people can get paid by the central agency. So while we're discussing the upgrade of the parking meters, again, why not at least debate the merits of RFID fare card versus credit card systems, and combining with the future streetcar fare system. I would think the fees to recoup fare system operating costs would be less than citibank fees.

 

This movie is (somewhat) about the teams of guys who check your ticket on the Budapest subway. I think something like this on the streetcar would be pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO2KFEaVjhg

^^I totally agree with this, but add TANK onto your list of things that fare card is valid for.