December 30, 201311 yr Why TANK and Metro haven't unified their fare systems is beyond me. It's not THAT difficult.
December 30, 201311 yr ^ The main issue I can think of with POP systems is that they require a lot more fare processing equipment. There needs to be a ticket machine at every stop which could be exposed to the weather and requires someone to travel around to maintain and refill them with paper and money and such. There's still the timestamping machine on the vehicles too, which are pretty simple in comparison to fareboxes, but they still need ink and could have issues with jamming or time synchronization, etc. All that said, the benefits of fast boarding are enormous. In a more robust transit environment, say if the whole bus system also used POP, or anywhere that has good density, then ticket machines won't be necessary at every stop and passengers can be directed to an adjacent convenience store or more central kiosks to buy tickets. I hope that our fancy new state of art streetcar does not rely too much on little bits of paper and time stampers with ink. I was dismayed to see that SORTA purchased new ticketing machines that actually print lines of ink on multi-fare cards. There are many excellent examples of RFID-based transit fare systems in use, and I don't believe they require amazing density, and they have been adapted to POP. Maybe there's an even better technology now; I'm not sure. An example is the CharlieCard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CharlieCard). Some inventive ways they adapted the stored-value cards for POP are in the section "CharlieCard on the Green Line". And I hope that nobody in charge is talking about a fare system for the streetcar, but rather talking about a modern, extensible, fare system for transit -- one that will serve us well now and 15 years from now. The same fare card should (at least ultimately) be usable for streetcar, METRO buses, bike rentals, Taxis, and parking meters. Doing this amounts to setting up a secure electronic metering system to record transactions so people can get paid by the central agency. So while we're discussing the upgrade of the parking meters, again, why not at least debate the merits of RFID fare card versus credit card systems, and combining with the future streetcar fare system. I would think the fees to recoup fare system operating costs would be less than citibank fees. The new Metro farebox system does support wireless/RFID cards, but currently they are only used for employees. The introduction of stored value cards was a big step forward for Metro, considering you previously had to have exact change or a monthly pass. I have no idea if TANK or CTC are interested in interoperability with Metro fare cards.
December 30, 201311 yr ^ That's good Travis; thanks. I'd assume that since SORTA is running the streetcar, it will use a compatible fare system technology and the stored value cards will work on both systems seamlessly. If so, and they want a POP system for the streetcar, there are ways to do that, as Boston (at least) has shown. Interoperability between streetcar and METRO would be a start. I also don't know if TANK or CTC (or taxi drivers, bike renters, etc) want interoperability with Metro fare cards. Then again, I'm a Steve Jobs fan.
December 31, 201311 yr Art Museum director spins/backpedals... http://www.architectmagazine.com/infrastructure20projects/cost-of-cincinnati-streetcar-outweighs-benefits-but-should-still-be-built_o.aspx?dfpzone=home
December 31, 201311 yr Page 666. Proof the streetcar is pretty much the devil. Either that, or we're having one of helluva good time talking about everything CincyStreetcar! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 31, 201311 yr These days, having the streetcar to talk about (and watch grow, even in the dead of winter), is something to be TANKful for!
December 31, 201311 yr Art Museum director spins/backpedals... http://www.architectmagazine.com/infrastructure20projects/cost-of-cincinnati-streetcar-outweighs-benefits-but-should-still-be-built_o.aspx?dfpzone=home He STILL doesn't get it. Costs outweigh benefits? Where on earth did he come up with that? The guy seems to be pulling stuff out of his a$$ instead of doing actual research. Aren't there studies that refute his claim? First he stepped in it and now he's tracking it all over the rug. Sheesh.
December 31, 201311 yr Art Museum director spins/backpedals... http://www.architectmagazine.com/infrastructure20projects/cost-of-cincinnati-streetcar-outweighs-benefits-but-should-still-be-built_o.aspx?dfpzone=home He STILL doesn't get it. Costs outweigh benefits? Where on earth did he come up with that? The guy seems to be pulling stuff out of his a$$ instead of doing actual research. Aren't there studies that refute his claim? First he stepped in it and now he's tracking it all over the rug. Sheesh. It's not hard to find. If you Google "cincinnati streetcar return on investment" the first result that appears is....... Cincinnati Streetcar Feasibility Study July 2007 http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/linkservid/17D4E8BF-EE36-4924-94AAFBB630857475/showMeta/0/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 31, 201311 yr No. What's worse is that he completely gets it. He just "opined" himself into a corner and only halfway owns it in his mea culpa. Everything he says supports the project being a good investment. But still asserts his underlying conclusion.
December 31, 201311 yr Page 666. Proof the streetcar is pretty much the devil. Either that, or we're having one of helluva good time talking about everything CincyStreetcar! yeah, just like they were having a great time in those cities on the plain, when.....
December 31, 201311 yr Posted by: DM4 « on: Today at 12:30:46 PM » Will the streetcar follow the system where everyone boards in the front door and shows their ticket to the driver as they walk past? Or is it planned to have all door entry and have police check for tickets periodically? The first cuts down on fare-jumping and doesn't really cause any delays, as boarding and exiting goes smoother since impatient people aren't running into people exiting. The fare-payment system where people can board and exit streetcars and buses via all doors is called the "honor fare system." In Toronto, Ontario, the Toronto Transit Commission has named it "POP," meaning "Proof Of Payment," used mainly on their Queen Street streetcar route. People buy tickets from machines at stops, or use daily, weekly or monthly passes. When boarding, they insert their tickets into small validating machines located by each door - these machines stamp their tickets with the time and day, making them good for trips of up to two hours from that point. On many systems, validated tickets are also good for transfers from streetcar to bus and subway, or vice-versa, as long as an entire trip is completed during the two-hour window. When using the honor-fare-payment system, or POP, a typical rider may find that four out of every five times he/she rides, no one comes by to check to see if they've got a properly-stamped and -validated ticket with them. Essentially that person can take their chances and ride for free and get away with it. HOWEVER, if that same person happens to be "unlucky," a roving ticket inspector shows up and asks everyone present to show their POP (Proof Of Payment,) and if anyone's unable to, the inspector immediately issues that person a fine of up to $200.00. In California, The San Diego Trolley uses the Honor Fare System. Last I knew, the fare-evasion rate in San Diego was pretty low, under 5%. People board and exit the San Diego Trolley by all doors. There are sometimes three cars in one train, but there's only one operator, in the front car. Each of the three cars in that train has four sets of doors per side, so there are TWELVE doors for everyone at crowded rush-hour stops to use. To board, riders waiting on the platform press a button next to the door they're standing closest to when the streetcar or train stops, and the door opens. Same for when they're ready to get off - they press a button on a stanchion by the door they're standing or seated closest to. San Diego Trolley's operators therefore don't have to open and close the doors. If no one presses a button either inside or outside the car or train, that particular door doesn't open. The trolley or train cannot move until everyone has boarded and/or alighted and all doors are shut, thanks to a safety-interlock system. The great advantage of the proof-of-payment honor system is that it lets passengers rapidly board and exit via all doors at all stops, greatly reducing the time the old-fashioned fare-payment systems waste while people slowly file, one by one, in through the front door to drop their fares into the fare box or swipe transit passes. People rummaging through their purses or pockets for bills and coins to pay further slow down the already maddeningly-slow service. This aggravation is a major reason why so many car drivers hate to use public transportation - people don't want to be kept waiting whilst others board and fumble for change at every stop. I assume that Cincinnati's present bus system still uses the old-fashioned one-person-at-a-time-thru-the-front-door payment system. I hope the streetcar introduces the much faster, more efficient honor-fare system. It is used throughout Europe. The honor system works in Brussels, though I hope Cincinnati's streetcar system will be more efficient and on-schedule than theirs. Amsterdam had the honor system once upon a time but has smartened up and made the switch to block fare to maximize the investment of patronage. Transit mostly operates at a deficit, so paying ridership is important in a market like Cincinnati.
December 31, 201311 yr The honor system works in Brussels, though I hope Cincinnati's streetcar system will be more efficient and on-schedule than theirs. Amsterdam had the honor system once upon a time but has smartened up and made the switch to block fare to maximize the investment of patronage. Transit mostly operates at a deficit, so paying ridership is important in a market like Cincinnati. Long time, no see. I was recently thinking about how you haven't posted in a while. Keep it up :) I believe Amsterdam went to automated gates (think like turnstiles) for their Metro (subway/heavy rail) system, but still has an honor system for trams (streetcars). They switched from a zonal fare structure to a per-kilometer structure by using RFID cards to collect variable fare amounts. You tap into the system, then tap out, and it charges based on distance traveled. If I'm not mistaken, they still have people boarding the trams with handheld devices to make sure everyone aboard has a card and is checked in for the current ride. Scanning the RFID at a Metro station opens gates to let you in, then scanning again lets you out, so I don't think they bother much to do fare checking on the Metro. They may occasionally do fare-checks on the Metro, too, but probably much less since they have the gates. London's RFID system is similar in the way you check-in and check-out through turnstiles for the Tube and the Overground, though they've kept a zonal system.
December 31, 201311 yr I recorded some highlights(?) from 700 WLW on December 23 on my phone while driving to work: People can say ignore talk radio...but in this town talk radio, and 700WLW especially, is more influential than any other news sources. More people listen to 700 WLW than read The Enquirer, and have been pounded day after day for the past six years with anti-streetcar nonsense.
December 31, 201311 yr yeah, WLW even advertises that they get more listeners than all other local media. And people LOVE conspiracies. heck, WLW should run Alex Jones.
December 31, 201311 yr I hope I remember that clip when the streetcar is successful and call in and play it for Gary Jeff Walker.
January 1, 201411 yr Wow, is WLW trying to create a fertile ground for the next Jonestown?? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 1, 201411 yr Wow, is WLW trying to create a fertile ground for the next Jonestown?? oh, KJP.... http://quimbob.blogspot.com/2013/12/can-you-spot-difference.html
January 1, 201411 yr We citizens should demand the inclusion of public transportation in this measure.... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4500.msg690520.html#msg690520 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 2, 201411 yr http://cincinnati.com/blogs/arts/2014/01/02/director-aaron-betsky-leaving-art-museum/
January 2, 201411 yr ^I didn't realize that he was the same person who advocated renaming Mount Adams as "Art Hill". Barf.
January 2, 201411 yr ^I didn't realize that he was the same person who advocated renaming Mount Adams as "Art Hill". Barf. The actor?
January 2, 201411 yr If you read John Schneider's editorial from a few weeks ago, you know that the rail being installed for the streetcar is fully capable of handling light rail in the future. In some other cities, such as Seattle, they are using grooved rail, which can support streetcars but probably not heavier light rail trains. (This is not an issue in Seattle, as they are running their light rail trains in a subway under downtown.) In Cincinnati: In Seattle:
January 2, 201411 yr If you read John Schneider's editorial from a few weeks ago, you know that the rail being installed for the streetcar is fully capable of handling light rail in the future. In some other cities, such as Seattle, they are using grooved rail, which can support streetcars but probably not heavier light rail trains. (This is not an issue in Seattle, as they are running their light rail trains in a subway under downtown.) In Cincinnati: In Seattle: Cincy's installation infrastructure and base layers look MUCH more substantial than Seattles. I wonder if that would also result in a smoother ride over a longer span of time.
January 2, 201411 yr Will future phases of the Cincinnati Streetcar continue to use the current rail, or will it move to grooved rail? Is it even possible to transition between the two? Since regional rail might not be using the tracks in Uptown like they could in Downtown would it be a cost saving measure to use grooved rail?
January 2, 201411 yr Mr. Deatrick is still project manager. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
January 2, 201411 yr Will future phases of the Cincinnati Streetcar continue to use the current rail, or will it move to grooved rail? Is it even possible to transition between the two? Since regional rail might not be using the tracks in Uptown like they could in Downtown would it be a cost saving measure to use grooved rail? Since we got federal funding for phase 1, we had to comply with Buy America requirements, and grooved rail is not manufactured in the United States. So if we don't get federal funding four our next extension (and pay for it with local and state funding), we could potentially use grooved rail. But unless there are quite substantial cost savings, I don't see why we'd switch. The other advantage of Cincinnati's construction method is that we have a solid slab of reinforced concrete below our rails, meaning that utilities can perform work below the tracks. Theoretically they could even do it while streetcars are running, if they don't disrupt service. The reinforced concrete was also necessary because of our poor soil.
January 3, 201411 yr Hi, taestell, I totally understand why you refer to the type of rail that Cincinnati is NOT installing as "grooved rail." Actually, "grooved" street-railway rail has been around since nearly the beginning of the original streetcar era at the end of the 19th century, and it was mainly called "girder rail," as shown in this web-link ( http://www.atlantictrack.com/international/espanol/pdf/MRT_Brochure.pdf ) to a rail manufacturer (scroll down to P. 6 in their PDF brochure to find their illustration of girder rail). The kind of rail being installed in Cincinnati is called "T-Rail," because, when viewed from its end, it resembles the letter "T."
January 3, 201411 yr WCPO sports reporter is now taking shots at the streetcar and compares it to the bengals not selling out sunday http://www.wcpo.com/news/opinion/dj-mike-brown-sees-short-turnaround-time-not-lingering-resentment-the-issue-with-ticket-sales Everything is the streetcar's fault
January 3, 201411 yr He's just beginning his gig as a blogger for WCPO, and is probably wading into the streetcar controversy to try to boost his hit count. He's a strange dude.
January 3, 201411 yr WCPO sports reporter is now taking shots at the streetcar and compares it to the bengals not selling out sunday http://www.wcpo.com/news/opinion/dj-mike-brown-sees-short-turnaround-time-not-lingering-resentment-the-issue-with-ticket-sales Everything is the streetcar's fault A long-time rail opponent. During MetroMoves, he called light rail the "Toonerville Trolley." Just one more person who has wagered his credibility on the wrong side of the bet. Will be fun the dredge up these quotes in a couple of years.
January 3, 201411 yr WCPO sports reporter is now taking shots at the streetcar and compares it to the bengals not selling out sunday http://www.wcpo.com/news/opinion/dj-mike-brown-sees-short-turnaround-time-not-lingering-resentment-the-issue-with-ticket-sales Everything is the streetcar's fault I still find it hilarious that WCPO expects people to pay for articles like that when there are plenty of free blogs and forums out there that have much higher quality than that. I can't wait for the day when I'm no longer even tempted to click on links like that to see how absurd of connections people can make to the streetcar.
January 3, 201411 yr WCPO sports reporter is now taking shots at the streetcar and compares it to the bengals not selling out sunday http://www.wcpo.com/news/opinion/dj-mike-brown-sees-short-turnaround-time-not-lingering-resentment-the-issue-with-ticket-sales Everything is the streetcar's fault A long-time rail opponent. During MetroMoves, he called light rail the "Toonerville Trolley." Just one more person who has wagered his credibility on the wrong side of the bet. Will be fun the dredge up these quotes in a couple of years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUs7iG1mNjI
January 3, 201411 yr WCPO sports reporter is now taking shots at the streetcar and compares it to the bengals not selling out sunday http://www.wcpo.com/news/opinion/dj-mike-brown-sees-short-turnaround-time-not-lingering-resentment-the-issue-with-ticket-sales Everything is the streetcar's fault I still find it hilarious that WCPO expects people to pay for articles like that when there are plenty of free blogs and forums out there that have much higher quality than that. I can't wait for the day when I'm no longer even tempted to click on links like that to see how absurd of connections people can make to the streetcar. I was tempted, too. But I know it's just click-bait, so I resist. The only thing on my Christmas list this year was a Business Courier subscription.
January 3, 201411 yr WCPO sports reporter is now taking shots at the streetcar and compares it to the bengals not selling out sunday http://www.wcpo.com/news/opinion/dj-mike-brown-sees-short-turnaround-time-not-lingering-resentment-the-issue-with-ticket-sales Everything is the streetcar's fault A long-time rail opponent. During MetroMoves, he called light rail the "Toonerville Trolley." Just one more person who has wagered his credibility on the wrong side of the bet. Will be fun the dredge up these quotes in a couple of years. On a related note, WKRC Chief Meteorologist Tim Hedrick is a vocal rail supporter. Always making pro-rail comments on his Twitter feed. I don't think he ever lets his views slip into his on-air forecasts, though. Maybe Denny should take note.
January 4, 201411 yr ^See, some of us westsiders believe in this idea too! It's not quite as lopsided as some folks and voting precincts lead on for it to be. :wink: As a side note to that, much of the talk I had over the holidays with friends and family revealed to me a rather large hidden force over here that is now secretly rooting for this thing to work, because they want a bigger system. They may have not wanted this at first (you know grumpy old men, type), but they want this built at this point, without a doubt. Many people have come to terms with where we need to go from here, even if they weren't for rail at all. It has been a pleasant and surprising development in this ongoing saga and the people I associate with. My cousins and I finally got to join the big kid table for the holidays this year!
January 6, 201411 yr Let's talk about the development. When do you think more projects will start to come out because of this? What areas are you most excited about? I think the Central Parkway, Main Street, 12th Street block will be a really nice area for redevelopment to kick it off. Parking lots and that old furniture building (will it be demolished?). I am so excited for this development. I think as an outsider that it is what will spark a self sustaining renaissance / redevelopment. This is my second post but I moved in February from Iowa and have always been very interested in Urban Economics and development. I wish I took more classes in Urban Development but I did take a few. Also in Economics in general there is always talk of a "Critical Mass" and self-sustaining economic markets which I am sure all of you already know about. I feel like this streetcar will be the last piece to the "critical mass" needed to connect all the investments made in the last few years. Anyone with real estate knowledge know how long it takes for the property values to rise because of this investment? Does that mean more people will be able to get more money off the loans and also at a lower interest rate, making it more feasible for smaller developers to do rehabs (specifically talking of Over the Rhine)? Thanks and look forward to replys! -LD
January 6, 201411 yr ^ This will be big: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/12/20/heres-the-next-big-3cdc-project-in.html?page=all It might be more appropriate to discuss this stuff in the OTR development thread. Or the individual downtown project threads. Maybe there should be a general "developments on the streetcar line" thread created in the Southwest Ohio Projects section? Actually, IAGuy39, maybe that would be a good way for you to make an early mark on the forum -- creating that thread. (Welcome to UrbanOhio, btw.)
January 6, 201411 yr We have a TOD thread here in the transit section, but we normally discuss issues surrounding TOD rather than specific projects themselves. Most of those are in the Cleveland area (Uptown, Intesa, Flats East Bank, etc), so most of the project updates are noted and discussed in the NE Ohio projects thread. So I suspect that issues surrounding streetcar TOD (general zoning, parking, incentives, etc discussion) should be discussed in the TOD thread, while updates to specific projects should be posted in topics in the SW Ohio Projects/Construction section. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 6, 201411 yr We have a TOD thread here in the transit section, but we normally discuss issues surrounding TOD rather than specific projects themselves. Most of those are in the Cleveland area (Uptown, Intesa, Flats East Bank, etc), so most of the project updates are noted and discussed in the NE Ohio projects thread. So I suspect that issues surrounding streetcar TOD (general zoning, parking, incentives, etc discussion) should be discussed in the TOD thread, while updates to specific projects should be posted in topics in the SW Ohio Projects/Construction section. Link?
January 6, 201411 yr Its a Cleveland TOD Discussion thread. I think it would be confusing to open it up to all cities.
January 6, 201411 yr Its a Cleveland TOD Discussion thread. I think it would be confusing to open it up to all cities. True. There is a Cleveland TOD thread. There is also a general TOD thread titled "More Americans Discover Charms of Living and Working near transit" or something like that. BTW, P.G. Sittenfeld's take on the Cincinnati Streetcar which he wrote in the Huffington Post..... Five Lessons From Cincinnati's Little Engine That Could Posted: 01/06/2014 10:05 am P.G. Sittenfeld Cincinnati City Councilman Cincinnati, Ohio - a City steeped in history, pivotal in national politics, and home to Fortune 500 businesses - is officially emerging from its Controversy-Of-The-Decade. The dust has settled on a 7-year brouhaha centering around a $133 million streetcar system, proposed to drive economic development in the City's core and to lay the groundwork for expanded rail transportation. More than any project in decades, the streetcar kerfuffle has fueled unending drama and controversy: a symbol of progress for proponents and of profligate spending for detractors. In the process, national media - ranging from the New York Times to the Wall Street Journal to the Los Angeles Times - have taken notice. READ MORE AT: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pg-sittenfeld/five-lessons-from-cincinn_b_4548657.html?utm_hp_ref=tw "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 7, 201411 yr Let's talk about the development. When do you think more projects will start to come out because of this? What areas are you most excited about? I think the Central Parkway, Main Street, 12th Street block will be a really nice area for redevelopment to kick it off. Parking lots and that old furniture building (will it be demolished?). I am so excited for this development. I think as an outsider that it is what will spark a self sustaining renaissance / redevelopment. This is my second post but I moved in February from Iowa and have always been very interested in Urban Economics and development. I wish I took more classes in Urban Development but I did take a few. Also in Economics in general there is always talk of a "Critical Mass" and self-sustaining economic markets which I am sure all of you already know about. I feel like this streetcar will be the last piece to the "critical mass" needed to connect all the investments made in the last few years. Anyone with real estate knowledge know how long it takes for the property values to rise because of this investment? Does that mean more people will be able to get more money off the loans and also at a lower interest rate, making it more feasible for smaller developers to do rehabs (specifically talking of Over the Rhine)? Thanks and look forward to replys! -LD I think as construction on the system progresses, you will see discussion here and in the Development threads, so just check back regularly. :)
January 7, 201411 yr Since everything in Cincinnati revolves around the streetcar, I'll post here although it could go in several places... In an interview Sunday on Newsmakers, Cranky said he would definitely be making changes to the SORTA board due to their irresponsible actions concerning the streetcar.
January 7, 201411 yr ^That'll show 'em! What a joke this guy is. I'm really hoping PG is planning to run next time around.
January 7, 201411 yr The man is an absolute menace. I gotta wonder what's going on in that lizard brain of his.
January 7, 201411 yr Well, Cranley's "boss" in the GOP has chimed in.... Alex Triantafilou @ChairmanAlex 12m @VotePG You wouldn't need Columbus to bail u out financially if you weren't wasting money on Streetcar and lining pockets of your union buds "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
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