Cranley called attempts to pursue an extended streetcar phase 'absurd' & said that he will 'fight extended phases like he fought the first phase'

 

He also continues to insist that it's a small group of people that support the streetcar and opposed its cancellation. I'm surprised his Chief of Staff hasn't referred to streetcar supporters as "birthers" yet.

I'm surprised his Chief of Staff hasn't referred to streetcar supporters as "birthers" yet.

 

Didn't that already happen?  I can't remember which media outlet I heard that on, but I could have sworn that he made that comment at some point.

I'm surprised his Chief of Staff hasn't referred to streetcar supporters as "birthers" yet.

 

Didn't that already happen?  I can't remember which media outlet I heard that on, but I could have sworn that he made that comment at some point.

 

Jay Kincaid said that about people criticizing Cranley's choice of Kevin Osbourne as Communications Director.

Murray talks about her trip to Portland with Dan Hurley

http://www.local12.com//entertainment/features/newsmakers/stories/newsmakers-march-30-2014-62.shtml

I'm surprised his Chief of Staff hasn't referred to streetcar supporters as "birthers" yet.

 

Didn't that already happen?  I can't remember which media outlet I heard that on, but I could have sworn that he made that comment at some point.

 

Jay Kincaid said that about people criticizing Cranley's choice of Kevin Osbourne as Communications Director.

 

Thank you. I knew that sounded familiar.

Murray talks about her trip to Portland with Dan Hurley

http://www.local12.com//entertainment/features/newsmakers/stories/newsmakers-march-30-2014-62.shtml

Very interesting interview, thanks for posting!  She seems to be taking kind of an "on the fence" position about the streetcar, she favors an assessment on adjacent properties.  But at the same time she is taking a position strongly in favor of light rail.  I think it is important for people to understand, any light rail needs a downtown distribution system with frequent stops to be successful.  If the rails being installed for the streetcar will support heavy rolling stock, if the turn radii and stops are compatible with longer trains, and if the overhead voltage is consistent with modern light rail standards, (and I believe all of these conditions are true) , then your streetcar system becomes a ready-made built-in downtown (hopefully uptown as well) distribution system for future light rail.  So "either its light rail or it's a streetcar, but not both" isn't necessarily valid.  I recall reading/studying about historic systems where higher speed interurban trains would come right into downtown areas and operate right along beside streetcars, and there are still cities around the world where higher speed suburban trains mix with streetcars on local streets (Zurich is one example I have seen).

Murray is pleasantly surprising me with her words but I still wont believe it until we see some votes.

 

I think many, including myself, are skeptical of the 'I'm for light rail' statements coming from unexpected sources.  Chris Smitherman, Bill Cunningham, Scott Sloan, John Cranley, & others have all publicly stated that they are 'for light rail' but against this streetcar plan.  They aren't.  Cunningham & 700wlw were against metromoves.  Smitherman proposed 2 ballot initiatives to stop all rail inside city limits.  Cranley said during the 2013 debates that he supports light rail and that he didn't support the double tax of metromoves...Now he hates all rail.  They are just saying anything to try and kill the streetcar project.  Whatever light rail plan that comes up wont be good enough.  It will either be too expensive, not go far enough, go too short, or wont have the ridership in their eyes. 

 

Case and point....In 2008, John Cranley stated to the Enquirer that he would be more 'easily persuaded' to support the streetcar if it went to uptown.  Roxanne Qualls, who was also against the project at the time, agreed.  She pushed for the uptown phase, delaying the project, & then cranley became even more opposed to the project.  This is what they do and have done for over a decade.

 

I have an Enquirer article dating back to 2008 that goes into detail about rail projects in Cincinnati.  It is titled 'Foes of public transit have a long history in this city' citing 'in the name of fiscal conservatism'.  Whether its the Cincinnati Southern Railway, the subway, the Inclines, applying for funds in the 1970's , metromoves, and now the streetcar, the gameplans are very similar. 

 

'Now is not the right time'

'We have more important priorities'

'We can't afford it'

'I'd support it if it ____.'

'It doesn't go far enough'

'Its too ambitious'

'Its going to take money away from ____'

'How about we build a _____ instead?'

 

and on and on.  I have a feeling deep down Amy Murray really does believe what she is saying.  However, her base is foaming at the mouth already.  She's gotten hate mail, hate tweets, and hate facebook messages just for going to portland.  IMO Politically, it wouldn't be wise for her to support any form of light rail or 2nd phase of streetcar

 

COA$T, as crazy as they are, Are the only opposition I know of that have been honest on their anti rail position in this streetcar debate from start to finish.  They hate all rail and aren't afraid to say it.

^ Whatever the plan is, they will always want a different plan.

I apologize if this question has already been asked/answered, but I'm curious about something....The tracks currently being laid on Central Parkway are being placed on the far left hand lane (closest to the center of the road).  Why not install them on the right hand side of the road (closest to the sidewalk)?  When the streetcar turns right (south) on Walnut it will have to cut across several lanes of traffic.  I'm assuming they will have to install a special turn signal for the streetcar to go right before the rest of the traffic is allowed to proceed forward?  Seems

^question has been answered upthread.

I apologize if this question has already been asked/answered, but I'm curious about something....The tracks currently being laid on Central Parkway are being placed on the far left hand lane (closest to the center of the road).  Why not install them on the right hand side of the road (closest to the sidewalk)?  When the streetcar turns right (south) on Walnut it will have to cut across several lanes of traffic.  I'm assuming they will have to install a special turn signal for the streetcar to go right before the rest of the traffic is allowed to proceed forward?  Seems

 

Short answer is "traffic engineers still rule this town and it was like pulling teeth to give any sort of priority to the streetcar."  A more detailed conversation is about two pages back.

Ok so part of my question still remains unanswered after reading the conversation on page 680.  How will the streetcar make a right hand turn onto Walnut?  Will there be a special turn signal just for the streetcar?  Or does it have to sit there and wait for all traffic to pass before cutting across the lanes?

 

I apologize if this question has already been asked/answered, but I'm curious about something....The tracks currently being laid on Central Parkway are being placed on the far left hand lane (closest to the center of the road).  Why not install them on the right hand side of the road (closest to the sidewalk)?  When the streetcar turns right (south) on Walnut it will have to cut across several lanes of traffic.  I'm assuming they will have to install a special turn signal for the streetcar to go right before the rest of the traffic is allowed to proceed forward?  Seems

 

Short answer is "traffic engineers still rule this town and it was like pulling teeth to give any sort of priority to the streetcar."  A more detailed conversation is about two pages back.

Ok so part of my question still remains unanswered after reading the conversation on page 680.  How will the streetcar make a right hand turn onto Walnut?  Will there be a special turn signal just for the streetcar?  Or does it have to sit there and wait for all traffic to pass before cutting across the lanes?

 

I apologize if this question has already been asked/answered, but I'm curious about something....The tracks currently being laid on Central Parkway are being placed on the far left hand lane (closest to the center of the road).  Why not install them on the right hand side of the road (closest to the sidewalk)?  When the streetcar turns right (south) on Walnut it will have to cut across several lanes of traffic.  I'm assuming they will have to install a special turn signal for the streetcar to go right before the rest of the traffic is allowed to proceed forward?  Seems

 

Short answer is "traffic engineers still rule this town and it was like pulling teeth to give any sort of priority to the streetcar."  A more detailed conversation is about two pages back.

 

There will be signals where the streetcar turns conflict with traffic flow; they'll get a few second head start to jump the line.

 

Also there is curved excavation going on around elm/henry and the MOF is almost two stories tall in places.

I noticed the Maintenance Operations Facility has a stair/elevator tower.  I thought it would be a one-story building. 

Google updated their satellite images of Cincinnati and you can see the start of construction of the streetcar by Washington Park last summer/fall.

I took this picture yesterday on Elm St just north of Findlay Market. Looks like they've uncovered cobblestones. Anybody know if there are plans to restore the exposed cobblestones?

 

 

^ I don't know, but I doubt it.  Once covered with asphalt, streets rarely go back to brick or cobblestone (though I wish they would).

Streetcar stop at Elm & 14th:

Streetcar stop at Elm & 14th:

 

I saw that, that stop is going to be awesome. I also like how the stop on Elm & Liberty is taking shape. I especially like the ramp design.

 

On a wholly unrelated note, I saw two additional Ticket Vending Machines in Metro's offices the other day. I'm assuming they are going in at UC but I don't know for certain.

Streetcar stop at Elm & 14th:

 

I saw that, that stop is going to be awesome. I also like how the stop on Elm & Liberty is taking shape. I especially like the ramp design.

 

On a wholly unrelated note, I saw two additional Ticket Vending Machines in Metro's offices the other day. I'm assuming they are going in at UC but I don't know for certain.

 

Won't each of the new Uptown Transit District stops have one of the fare machines?

Yes, there will be two at Uptown Transit District stations. One is going in front of Deaconess on Clifton Ave and the other is most likely going on Southbound Jefferson at University, though I haven't seen confirmation of that location yet.  They're supposed to be installed in the next month and operating by June.

The steering committee of Believe in Cincinnati hiked the forest route of the Uptown Streetcar yesterday.

 

I've never been more confident that we can get the streetcar off Vine Street, save a bunch of money, and make the trip between Downtown and Uptown much, much faster.

 

I'll be posting pics on Twitter @prostreetcar later today.

Not to sound stupid, because I've been following this for years, but what is the forest route? Is it the would be alignment of van Lear st. next to vine? Or something involving a tunnel?

A search for "forest route" came up with John's last post.

Not to sound stupid, because I've been following this for years, but what is the forest route? Is it the would be alignment of van Lear st. next to vine? Or something involving a tunnel?

 

Lower Ohio Avenue @ McMicken to Van Lear, probably in a combo tunnel/cut, and continuing north via a series of paper streets and private property to Vine. About 3,000 feet. Avoids all the back-tracking and busy Vine Street intersections. I figure if we could walk it with a six year-old, someone can build it.

John, did people discuss obliterating the steps & blighting the church?

This is not a hostile question altho it might sound like it. Just being blunt.

It's not going to blight the church.  Also, those steps hardly ever get used.  They are a continuation of the Ohio Ave. steps, which are used even less.  One person per hour, at most. 

John, did people discuss obliterating the steps & blighting the church?

This is not a hostile question altho it might sound like it. Just being blunt.

 

The steps can easily be rebulit as part of the tunnel portal, no problem there. Litterbugs are pretty much destroying the area now. Go have a look.

I see guys hanging out on those steps a lot, intimidating people into not using them. 

"Hardly ever get used" sounds similar to the argument for rails-to-trails in a ROW ripe for LRT. Point being, they might not be well-used now, but they could be an integral link in the future. I'm obviously all for the streetcar, but I don't like an alignment that destroys the pedestrian connection from Bellevue Park to Findlay Market. IMO destroying a pedestrian path would be counterproductive to the streetcar's primary objectives.

John, did people discuss obliterating the steps & blighting the church?

This is not a hostile question altho it might sound like it. Just being blunt.

 

The steps can easily be rebulit as part of the tunnel portal, no problem there. Litterbugs are pretty much destroying the area now. Go have a look.

 

Okay, good... I was getting worked up for a second :)

 

I see guys hanging out on those steps a lot, intimidating people into not using them. 

 

Annnnd that illustrates my point, since those people could easily be gone one day soon, instantly increasing traffic on the steps. A lot easier to get rid of negative behavior than to bring back the steps.

^ Again, there will be no problem rebuilding the steps, which is often use. I'm imagining they would ascend at one side of the tunnel portal. It's a non-issue.

If the railway has the cars elevated outside the windows of the church, I would call that blighting. I have no idea what the elevation would be - that's why I was asking if people had considered the issue.

I used those stairs for years & caught the bus at the top on Clifton. Never ran into any intimidating people (well, one crazy chick at the NB bus stop). Hardly ever walked the steps alone, either. They seemed to get a good bit of use.

If you manage to build up population, the steps would be in greater demand.

I have been hassled by tenants of the apartments on the S side of Clifton. Couldn't care less for them. Dunno if the apartments are worth anything, tho. Probably have nice southern views.

Not sure why the streetcars would be elevated... I'm envisioning them running at-grade to a short tunnel...

The steering committee of Believe in Cincinnati hiked the forest route of the Uptown Streetcar yesterday.

 

I've never been more confident that we can get the streetcar off Vine Street, save a bunch of money, and make the trip between Downtown and Uptown much, much faster.

 

I'll be posting pics on Twitter @prostreetcar later today.

 

I would love to see a map with this proposed alignment on it. ;)

Cincinnati streetcar construction takes a turn

Erin Caproni Digital Producer- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

With warmer weather, the construction of Cincinnati’s streetcar has heated up. And now a new phase of the project is taking shape.

 

The excavation for the first curve of the streetcar route took place last week, and the first curved rail is expected to be installed in the coming days. The curve is being created at Elm and Henry streets near the Rhinegeist brewery.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/04/14/cincinnati-streetcar-construction-takes-a-turn.html

This satellite image is from October 2013, but nevertheless provides evidence that work is underway on the park in place of the old Blue Ash Airport.  Proceeds from Cincinnati's sale of this property to Blue Ash are helping fund the streetcar project. 

 

Not to sound stupid, because I've been following this for years, but what is the forest route? Is it the would be alignment of van Lear st. next to vine? Or something involving a tunnel?

 

Lower Ohio Avenue @ McMicken to Van Lear, probably in a combo tunnel/cut, and continuing north via a series of paper streets and private property to Vine. About 3,000 feet. Avoids all the back-tracking and busy Vine Street intersections. I figure if we could walk it with a six year-old, someone can build it.

 

You're talking about staying to the west of Vine all the way up to Inwood Park/Hollister? [/img]

bigger

That looks like a lot of earthmoving and thus a lot of expense. Why not just run it on Ohio Avenue to where you can cross over via vacant lots to Vine across from Rothenberg Academy?

^ Hillside stability is a concern for sure, maybe requiring piers or retaining walls, which drives up cost a lot.  Nevertheless, it could still be less expensive than in-street tracks and dealing with all the existing utilities that will need adjusting. 

 

My question is how to get the line started from McMicken.  I don't think you can just run the streetcar up that existing short bit of Ohio Avenue next to the church and then start tunneling under West Clifton.  The grade of Ohio next to the church is 12.4% which is double the slope on Vine and what the streetcars can handle.  It keeps going up from there too, so it seems like you never make up enough ground to keep the grade under control.

Um, there's a cliff there. 

^ Hillside stability is a concern for sure, maybe requiring piers or retaining walls, which drives up cost a lot.  Nevertheless, it could still be less expensive than in-street tracks and dealing with all the existing utilities that will need adjusting. 

 

My question is how to get the line started from McMicken.  I don't think you can just run the streetcar up that existing short bit of Ohio Avenue next to the church and then start tunneling under West Clifton.  The grade of Ohio next to the church is 12.4% which is double the slope on Vine and what the streetcars can handle.  It keeps going up from there too, so it seems like you never make up enough ground to keep the grade under control.

Did the court ever give a  ruling on  who pays for the utility moving? If not what's taking so long?

Not to sound stupid, because I've been following this for years, but what is the forest route? Is it the would be alignment of van Lear st. next to vine? Or something involving a tunnel?

 

 

Lower Ohio Avenue @ McMicken to Van Lear, probably in a combo tunnel/cut, and continuing north via a series of paper streets and private property to Vine. About 3,000 feet. Avoids all the back-tracking and busy Vine Street intersections. I figure if we could walk it with a six year-old, someone can build it.

 

You're talking about staying to the west of Vine all the way up to Inwood Park/Hollister? [/img]

 

Yes, about 2,600 LF until it rejoins Vine a little south of Hollister, the first 1,000 or so feet to the south in a tunnel under Lower Ohio Avenue giving way to an open cut and then to flat land.

 

The advantages are:

 

* No moving of utilities until you get much further up on Vine;

 

* Ability to work longer hours instead of the 9-3 regime we've had going on in OTR and the CBD - except for the shorter Vine Street section north of Hollister where traffic would restrict work hours;

 

* Ability to build over 1,000 feet of this on ballasted concrete ties instead of the reinforced slabs we're doing downtown;

 

* Not having to build 1,500 of track on Elder and Vine @ $5,000 per LF;

 

* When finished, a beautiful ascent/descent through the forest west of Vine opening up to vistas of downtown;

 

* Hardly any loss of buildings;

 

* Ability to serve another neighborhood -- Clifton Heights -- via a stop in the forest and restored steps @ Conklin leading up to Ohio Avenue;

 

* Less disruption -- compared to downtown and OTR where we have mostly one-way streets that each host one direction of streetcar travel, with the current alignment we'll be putting both directions of streetcar travel on Vine, a busy two-way street with curb parking on each side -- think about that;

 

* But the main reason -- it will be a much faster, more comfortable trip. I used to ride the 46 bus up and down Vine, and all the twists and turns often made standing uncomfortable. Since most people stand on a streetcar, passenger comfort will be affected by the Vine Street route (try it yourself someday, standing the whole way, both directions - it gets old). And of course, it will save a bunch of time - eight minutes per trip on average according to someone in the know. The streetcar will miss having to negotiate five intersections in an area of OTR that's bound to get much more congested over the next few years. Valuing this time saved by 3,000 estimated daily riders at half the city's average hourly income and then discounting that by 7% makes that time-savings over the first thirty years of the streetcar's life worth $19 million in Present Value. Plus a faster trip will drive ridership. The forest route will be faster than driving and parking.

 

Other than those and probably half a dozen more if I had more time to write them up, I can't think of a single reason for moving the alignment off Vine.

 

PS: The court case still has some months to run. Duke has hired private counsel which, from what I understand, is trying to make this case more global. Here's hoping they continue down that path until the Cincinnati case attracts the interest of road builders who also could have big problems if cities can't use their streets in the ways they want.

 

 

 

Not to sound stupid, because I've been following this for years, but what is the forest route? Is it the would be alignment of van Lear st. next to vine? Or something involving a tunnel?

 

 

 

Lower Ohio Avenue @ McMicken to Van Lear, probably in a combo tunnel/cut, and continuing north via a series of paper streets and private property to Vine. About 3,000 feet. Avoids all the back-tracking and busy Vine Street intersections. I figure if we could walk it with a six year-old, someone can build it.

 

You're talking about staying to the west of Vine all the way up to Inwood Park/Hollister? [/img]

 

This map has changed somewhat. After hiking it several times now, we would make it almost a straight shot from McMicken and Ohio to Vine near Hollister. It works nicely.

If you look at the CAGIS property map it looks like there used to be a street or alleyway that paralleled Vine on that exact route.

I can't find a map that shows that, but Ohio did connect, probably as stairs: http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=4&lon=-84.51711086244107&lat=39.1213522416183&year=T1914

John do you think council will vote to apply for the tiger grants for phase 2? Can cranley veto if they don't have 6 votes? Isn't the deadline coming up to apply?

PAlexander, What you are seeing there are paper streets on the hillsides that were platted but never constructed. 

 

Sherman: Lower and upper Ohio are connected now with stairs.

Doesn't building the streetcar through the middle of the forest essentially remove it's potential for development/redevelopment? I thought the whole argument for it making so many turns in the initial downtown/otr loop was that it was more of an economic development project than a transportation project.  Following that logic, why are we no so concerned with travel times as opposed to trying to redevelop and revitalize the Vine Street hill?